asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will include the Isle of Wight in the regular publications of recorded sunshine issued by the Meteorological Office.

Sunshine figures for places in the Isle of Wight appear regularly in a number of official publications. These include the daily Health Resort Bulletin which gives figures for Ryde, Sandown, Shanklin and Ventnor.

Does not my right hon. Friend think that as the hours of sunshine in various towns on the Isle of Wight seaboard are always more than in any other part of the country every year—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—it would be as well to include them in the official figures which are broadcast? Would it not be as well always to quote our best figures?

I did not quite hear the last part of the question.

I was asking whether it would not be as well if these figures were included in the meteorological reports which are regularly broadcast?

I think that my hon. Friend is referring to the daily weather report. Weather reports in this document, which are in code, are restricted to stations which provide more comprehensive weather reports than are available in the Isle of Wight, but I agree with him in yielding to none in appreciating the high weather content of his island.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will explain the reasons for the inaccuracy of the weather forecast for Whit Monday issued by his Department on Sunday, 10th June; and if he will make a statement.

A rain area which developed suddenly about three miles up over the Atlantic late on Sunday evening 10th June was blown over the British Isles by a high-speed airstream. This development became apparent only about midnight on the Sunday and could not have been foreseen from the information available when the forecast referred to was being prepared.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the forecast for Whit Monday given on the Sunday was a mess-up and that it led to disappointment for millions of holidaymakers? The forecast was dry and and sunny "but it turned out wet and cold over most of the country. Could the Meteorological Office make special efforts on these holiday occasions?

I wish we could be more accurate about these things. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear".] It is true that the forecasts given at 6.55 a.m. and 7.55 a.m. on Whit Monday proved a little inaccurate, but the forecast at 8.55 a.m. was, on the whole, generally accurate.

Is it not a fact that the Meteorological Office is much more often right than wrong? If the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) does not like the forecasts, is there anything to stop him hanging a bit of seaweed outside his front door?

I think that, on the whole, the forecasts are more often right than wrong—which is why the Government take credit for the results of the Meteorological Office.

Is this another disturbing illustration of the effect on the Government of the wind of change?

asked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent his Department's meteorologists rely for weather forecasting on reports available from the United States satellite Tiros IV; and whether such reports were available to this country over the Whitsun holidays.

These reports are of limited value to forecasters in this country, partly because they arrive several hours later than the reports we receive from surface stations and ships.

If the reports from Tiros IV are from time to time ineffective, does that mean that our meteorological forecasts here will not be so good as they have been when Tiros is effective?

No, I do not think so. I think that it simply means that British weather is very unpredictable

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many courts-martial have been held in the last 12 months to deal with offences committed by members serving with the Royal Air Force in Germany; and whether, in such cases, the Press and public are admitted

The Press and public are admitted to Royal Air Force courts-martial, of which there were 75 in Germany in the year ending 31st May, 1962.

Was not that a rather large number of courts-martial? How does the right hon. Gentleman account for the number? Further, can he say whether, in order to allay disquiet, he proposes to follow the example of the Secretary of State for War by imposing discipline preventing unmarried personnel from being out after 12 o'clock at night?

As at present advised, we do not think that that is necessary.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is no reason whatever to suppose that the discipline of the Royal Air Force in Germany is not of the very highest order?

This is our view.

I do not in any way suggest that the discipline is ineffective or that it should be harsher than it is, but can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the Services differ as regards matters of discipline?

There are always matters of autonomy in these issues. As at present advised, we do not see any reason to subject the Royal Air Force to a curfew.

Is it not far better to improve the facilities such as N.A.A.F.I. clubs and so on rather than increase discipline in these areas in order to improve morale?

If my hon. Friend will visit Germany, he will find that the facilities are pretty good in the N.A.A.F.I. and so on. I think that there is no shortcoming on that side. As I say, our judgment, as at present advised, is that there is no need to take any exceptional measures in the Royal Air Force.

Can the Secretary of State give a little more information about the 75 courts-martial? Can he put them in perspective and say how they compare with previous years, giving an indication of the proportion of courts-martial concerned with disciplinary matters with reference to relations with civilians, bashing up cafés and so on? I was in Berlin only yesterday, and I found that the Royal Air Force there had no discipline problems and there was no cause for any anxiety at all. Also, when I was with Second A.T.A.F. in January, there were no serious disciplinary matters there. I understand that a great many of the crimes were technical or civilian motoring offences. Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the 75 compare with previous years and what number accounts for motoring offences and the like and what number relates to what would be regarded as serious disciplinary matters?

I cannot off the cuff make a comparison with previous years, but of the cases I mentioned only five had an element of violence connected with them.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what progress is being made with the Ballistic Missile Early Warning Station at Fylingdales; and if he will make a statement.

Work is now going well. The main technical buildings are up; and the contractors working on behalf of the United States Air Force have begun to put in their special equipment.

Is it not the tragedy that that much of the progress so far in the construction of this vital link in the defensive system of the West has been bedevilled by strikes and restrictive practices? Can my right hon. Friend say whether labour relations on the site have been improved, and may we look forward confidently to the completion of the station?

We have been very concerned about the situation, but, as I say, we confidently expect that the station will be operational next year as forecast.

As these ballistic missile early warning stations give no warning of missiles fired from submarines, is their future to be considered in a different light?

I reject the assumption on which that supplementary question is based. They undoubtedly give very good warning.

Of missiles fired from submarines?

From submarines—I am sorry. One cannot cover everything with every piece of equipment. They are very valuable against the particular equipment against which they are designed.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the present position with regard to the Leicestershire portion of the London to Yorkshire motorway; and if he will make a statement.

As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member on 2nd May, we hope to let contracts for the first 26 miles of the M.1 extension this summer. This will take the motorway to its junction with A.50 at Markfield. Tenders for the first three contracts have already been invited. The aim is to complete work within two years from the letting of the contract. Progress with the remaining section in Leicestershire will depend on detailed preparation and availability of funds.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that people who are watching the whole process of providing this road consider that it is being carried on in a fiddling manner? Has he read the report by the County Surveyors' Society on the road system of our country in which It is said that 1,700 miles are immediately necessary and that, at the rate we are going at present, we shall take 30 years to do it? What does the Minister propose to do? Why will not he regard the whole situation from a general point of view, realising that the economic situation demands that these roads shall be built rapidly, with a radical approach to the whole problem, and that the sooner they are built the better it will he for the country's economy?

The answer to the hon. Gentleman's first supplementary question is, "No, Sir". The answer to his second supplementary question is, "Yes, Sir". The answer to the third is that one cannot argue from the general to the particular. In this case, we have an extremely complicated and difficult operation covering a large area of territory. It is not as simple as the hon. Gentleman so frequently seems to think.

Is the Minister aware that everyone, apart from himself, who has examined this situation is convinced that the expenditure of money now will save a considerable amount in the future? Why does not he regard the system as a whole and carry on with this extensive task?

We are well aware of the advantages to be gained from motorways, and this is why we are getting on with the programme as quickly as the statutory processes allow.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to upgrade more roads to become classified roads.

Unclassified roads are upgraded when their value to through traffic justifies it.

Is it not the case that the amount of upgrading approved by the right hon. Gentleman's Department during the last five to seven years has been negligible? Is it not also the case that the repair and maintenance of unclassified roads presents a very real problem to the highway authorities, which are unable to do the job because they have not the cash? Will he give highway authorities encouragement by approving the upgrading of further roads?

If the hon. Gentleman has any road in mind, I will certainly consider it from the point of view of traffic utilisation to see whether it can be upgraded. This can only be done on merits. The House will, I am sure, agree that most of the roads in this country are maintained at a higher standard than those in other countries.

asked the Minister of Transport when the work of widening Archway Road, Highgate, and of reconstructing the junction at Archway Station is expected to begin; and what is the estimated cost of each scheme.

We were not able to include the widening of Archway Road in the trunk road programme which was announced in February last. But we will press ahead with the necessary preparatory work so that the scheme, which is estimated to cost £1·2 million, can be included in the programme at the earliest practicable date.

Will the hon. Gentleman think again, since the Minister and everyone else agree that the widening of this road is the only suitable way of getting heavy traffic to and from M.1? Will he get the Minister to abandon his quite ludicrous alternative proposal as a temporary measure to force 10,000 lorries a day through Highgate Village, a scheme which has been condemned already by the five local authorities concerned?

The second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is the subject of another Question on the Order Paper, and I had better not anticipate my right hon. Friend's reply to it. On this Question, we must get on with the preparatory work before we can put the scheme into the programme. That is exactly what we are doing.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will designate as a clearway the stretch of A.30 from the end of the Great West Road as far as the road leading to the Staines by-pass.

We have given public notice of our intention to designate as a clearway the length between the end of the Great West Road and the Clockhouse roundabout at East Bedfont. Subject to consideration of any representations, we shall do this as soon as the necessary lay-bys can be constructed. The remainder of the road is not suitable for a clearway.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now give a definite date on which the relief road for Stowmarket will be started.

No, Sir. The draft Order under the Highways Act has aroused considerable local opposition. We may therefore be obliged to make a substantial modification and in that case re-advertisement of the Order would be necessary. In any event, because of the pressure of other more urgent schemes, we have not been able to include this one in our present trunk road programme.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in this town, which is quite progressive, housing and industry are held up from a planning point of view until the line of this road is decided? Although he may say that there has been local opposition, there is great feeling that the delay is rather deliberate within his Ministry. Can my hon. Friend give me some assurance on that point?

I can certainly give my hon. Friend the assurance that there is no delay in the Ministry. But this is a typical example of the sort of problem which we are up against. Here we have no fewer than 40 objections. The scheme as at present designed provides for the very heavy demolition of property, and, in order to try to meet the difficulty, we are attempting to redesign the junction. I think that we should have the chance of doing that first.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the widespread indignation caused among local residents, shopkeepers and school authorities as a result of his traffic proposals affecting Highgate Hill and Highgate Village; and whether he will reconsider his decision.

I have received many objections about my proposals. I am considering them all carefully before making any decision.

The Minister's proposals have not only produced a volume of protests on the part of residents and shopkeepers in that area but have been roundly condemned by the various education and hospital authorities, which are abundant in the area, as likely to produce not merely the maximum inconvenience but the maximum danger. This proposal about driving thousands of lorries up Highgate Hill and through Highgate Village is quite ludicrous.

We have had many objections from councils and local organisations, which I would not minimise. They have set out their reasons for objecting and, in some cases, have given alternatives. Every alternative suggestion will be studied. The House and the country expect the Minister of Transport to keep traffic going until it affects them and then they say, "Do not do it". This is the dilemma of every Minister. One moment the House asks him to get London's traffic moving and the next moment it says, "Not as long as it affects me".

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that local reaction to this scheme, on safety and other grounds, apart from amenity considerations, has been of quite exceptional violence, and for very good reasons? When will he receive the deputation led by the hon. Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans) and myself about which I wrote to him more than six weeks ago?

I realise that the hon. Gentleman has a great knowledge of this area, because he lives in it. However, I do not propose to see the deputations until I have analysed carefully all the suggestions which they have made. That is the only sensible thing to do.

Is it not a fact that this scheme is one of the prices which we have to pay for being a democratic State? If we want to get anything moving which is worth while, some people will get hurt. May we have an assurance that at the end of the day no Government and no Minister will take action without, at any rate, first taking carefully into account the people affected by such schemes?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; that is what I said. I will consider the written representations and alternatives most carefully. I will then be prepared to see and argue with the deputation and will then make the decision. However, the person mostly hurt in all these schemes is the Minister himself.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will consider setting up a fund out of which compensation can be paid to owners and tenant farmers for damage done to land and machinery resulting from the construction of motor roads and other highways.

No, Sir. Claims which are well-founded in law fall to be met either by the appropriate highway authority or by contractors who are required to insure against their liability. The creation of a fund would bring no advantage.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in my constituency much damage has been done to plants, machinery, land, and growing crops and that most of the people affected are small farmers? Although the county council is doing what it can, it naturally and rightly puts the blame on the contractors. The contractors go to the insurance company which in turn repudiates the claim, with the result that 18 months' later the small people—they are the people in whom I am largely interested—have had no compensation at all although it has been agreed. Will not my hon. Friend consider this matter again and set up a fund from which these people can be paid and let the various parties concerned argybargy afterwards?

I am having examined the various cases which my hon. Friend sent me following an exchange which he and I had at Question Time some time ago. But, on the general issue, as I said in my Answer, if there is a claim which is well founded in law, it is either for the highway authority or for the contractor to meet it. If it is not well founded in law, and if the insurance company refuses to indemnify the contractors because it is not satisfied that it is well founded, that is an entirely different matter and my right hon. Friend has no standing in it.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport for what reasons he has turned down the suggestions made to him by the Devon and Cornwall Federation of Trades Councils urging the advantages of a completely new road to the north of the City of Exeter, which would relieve present extreme traffic congestion on the Exeter by-pass.

Because the terrain it would have to cross would make it a very costly project. Moreover, it would not give as effective relief as a new southern by-pass for the bulk of the traffic proceeding to South Devon and Plymouth.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that until the Exeter bypass is relieved, the intolerable congestion during the summer months is bound to continue? Is he aware that no amount of building of by-passes or widening of the A.30 will ameliorate the situation until that by-pass is relieved in one way or another? Will he also bear in mind that all the publicity about Honiton points only to the Exeter bypass and that none of these jams have their origin within Honiton itself, in spite of the newspapers?

That goes a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper and I have answered what my hon. Friend asked in that Question. We do not think it desirable to have a northern by-pass of Exeter. A southern route would go through easier country. It would be a shorter route to London and would connect with the A.30 and the A.38. A northern by-pass would have none of these advantages.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of us are interested in the suggestion he now makes about the southern part of the area concerned? Why is the South-West to be the Cinderella in all the road building programmes undertaken?

That is a canard which I have often had to demolish before, if one can demolish a canard.

When is the southern by-pass likely to be built? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that 2½ million tourists use this area every year? Has he used it himself? If not, will he do so?

I have frequently done so. I use it practically every summer on holiday. We are getting on with this project as quickly as we can, consistent with our other obligations and responsibilities.

asked the Minister of Transport what are his plans for improving the visibility, the width and the alignment of that stretch of the A.3 between the entrance to Upper Durford Wood and Lower Durford Wood.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) how many accidents have taken place, fatal and otherwise, on the A.3 road between the Flying Bull public house at Rake and Adhurst Corner since 1st January, 1959;

Between 1st January, 1959, and 31st May, 1962, 124 accidents, of which three were fatal, were reported to the police. In 68 of these accidents no one was injured.

Can my hon. Friend give any indication when this by-pass is likely to materialise?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has studied the 25 conclusions reached at the European Road Safety Conference in Strasbourg in April; and what action he proposes to take to implement them.

The conclusions cover a wide range of subjects. Some of them deal with matters on which good progress has already been made in this country. Others will require closer investigation, and I would prefer not to forecast what my eventual view of them is likely to be.

Would the right hon. Gentleman like to forecast when he will give it urgent consideration, since questions of road safety, whether in Britain alone or in Britain and Europe, are urgent, particularly during the coming tourist season?

I quite agree. Although one can never be satisfied with figures for accidents and deaths in this country, they are better than for most countries on the Continent which have been contributing to these recommendations. Several of the conclusions are general recommendations with which no one could disagree, for example that increased pedestrian segregation is desirable. We all know that, but it is a question of how best we can do it. We have not done too badly but we can never be complacent with this awful carnage that goes on on the roads.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects to receive the results of the inquiry into the proposal to change from the left-hand to a right-hand rule of the road; and if he will make a statement.

The study to which the hon. Member refers was a purely domestic one, designed to discover the implications of a possible change-over. There would clearly be long-term financial savings to the vehicle manufacturing industry if all their production could be concentrated on left-hand drive models. A tentative calculation of the possible cost of changing over is that it might be as much as £200 million overall, given a warning period of five years, and £35 million with a 15-year warning period, but these figures must be treated with reserve, and I emphasise "with reserve". No more than a guess can be made at the possible increase in road casualties, but it might be of the order of 10 per cent. for each of the first three years.

Has the committee of inquiry concluded its report and submitted it to the Minister or is he merely making an interim statement on it now?

It is not a committee but a Departmental study of what we think the possible effects might be. When we have arrived at tentative conclusions—and I say "tentative" because they cannot be final until we have consulted all the interests concerned—the next step is to consult the interests concerned and take the matter a stage further.

How many Commonwealth countries still have left-hand drive? Has that been taken into consideration in calculating the cost?

Three principal Commonwealth countries, India, Australia and New Zealand, are concerned and I intend to consult them too.

Whilst the right hon. Gentleman is continuing to study this matter, may I ask whether he does not agree that, if conversion of the roads to the left-hand drive system will involve the fantastic figure of £200 million, it would be far more sensible for this country to plough that £200 million into new roads which are desperately needed in all parts of the country rather than fiddle about to deny us what still remains of the British way of life?

I hope that I shall not be misrepresented. I did not say that the £200 million was the cost of altering the roads. I said that that was the overall cost, and that includes far more than altering the roads. Every new road that is being designed is designed for left-hand or right-hand side driving.

asked the Minister of Transport what has been the cost of placing the No Waiting signs recently on the A.45 road at the northern end of M.45.

£372.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am giving him a golden opportunity to save money, as these signs—72 of them—have been erected along a section of road which is already designated as a clearway? Can he tell me what the difference is between a "No Waiting" restriction and a clearway, which, as far as my understanding goes, means no waiting anyway?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the opportunity he has given me. A clearway order does not preclude parking on the verges of the road. The verges of this road have been spoiled by vehicles parking there, and the police say that they not only do that but are also a danger to traffic. On safety grounds, the cost of these signs is the ref ore justified.

Will my right hon. Friend say why it is that he does not extend these signs for another 10 or 12 miles of road, where the same situation arises?

I do not think that this is the case, because there are two cafés on this stretch, Bob's Café and Auto's Café, and I can assure my hon. Friend that that does not apply to the remaining 10 miles of the section.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the bad accident record on the Bath Road A.4, west of Reading, and the representations made to him by the Berkshire County Council and local parish councils, he will now apply special road safety measures to this stretch of road.

We have just received the further information we wanted from the county council about vehicle speeds on the section of A.4 between Reading and Theale. This should enable us to determine quite quickly whether the road is suitable for the use of off-set double white lines. We shall also be carrying out a number of minor improvements to A.4, including the provision of bus bays, the improvement of junctions and minor widenings.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am glad to hear that? Will he take action, even of a temporary character, to ensure that fewer people are killed and maimed on these few miles of road?

Yes, Sir. We shall take action as quickly as we can.

asked the Minister of Transport what representations he has received on the subject of the development of the A.19 road in County Durham.

From the right hon. Member and from the Middlesbrough County Council and the Peterlee Parish Council.

While appreciating the attention which the right hon. Gentleman is giving to this matter, may I ask him if he is aware of the disappointment experienced by all local authorities in the area, including all the authorities on Tees-side and on the coast of Durham? In view of the effect on industrial development in the area, will he try to expedite further development?

I will certainly look at it and keep it under continuous review. If we do have a chance to re-programme, we will look at it again, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is a question of priorities, and he has already heard earlier in Question Time today from many other hon. Members who have decided and definite opinions on the order of priority in which roads should be built.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will arrange for his traffic engineers to study evidence abroad in regard to the relative merits of roundabouts and other forms of traffic intersection.

My engineers are already given opportunities to keep themselves abreast of the latest thinking on traffic problems and highway constructional methods in other countries. The relative merits of roundabouts and other forms of traffic intersection are well known, and are taken into account in deciding the form of intersection to be used at any junction.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that in the United States they have ceased building roundabouts as we know them? Would it not be a good idea if my right hon. Friend's traffic engineers were to have a talk with the experts in America and hear from them at first hand their reasons for reaching this decision?

:That is quite true, because they have grade separations and all sorts of things in America, where I have been. If my hon. Friend has in mind any particular case where he thinks that a roundabout which is proposed ought not to be built, perhaps he will send me details and we will look into the case.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman consider ceasing to build any new roundabouts except where there is a special case for them? It is pretty well known that to ease traffic flow roundabouts are completely outmoded in modern road traffic conditions.

The physical conditions of a town sometimes make the construction of an efficient flyover system impossible. We can only plan according to the ground that we have available and the density of the population. It is a question of circumstances in each case. As I say, if there is an individual case where any hon. Member thinks that a roundabout which is being proposed is the wrong solution and if he will let me know, I will have a look at it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet reached a decision about the possibility of supplementing the motorways programme with some form of toll roads.

No, Sir. Financing motorways by tolls would not necessarily increase the share of physical resources we could devote to highway purposes. The Government's announced policy is not to charge tolls on motorways forming part of the five major projects or planned as early extensions of them. A detailed examination is being made of the possibility of charging tolls on later motorways but no decision has yet been reached on this.

Is it not a fact that this is the only way in which motorway programmes can be expedited without great public expenditure? Is it not also a fact that in the United States, where this system has been introduced, the total cost of these toll roads has been paid off in many cases long before expected and there has been a general benefit to road users on other roads?

In answer to the last part of the supplementary question, in some parts of the United States the cost has been paid off, and in other cases they have gone bankrupt. Therefore, this has not proved itself as a method of raising money. In any case, even if it raises actual cash, that cash has to be transferred into physical resources, and that is the crux of the problem.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that any proposal to charge tolls on public roads would meet with the strongest objection in this island?

I am not unaware of the strong objections on the other side of the House.

Before any such proposal is considered, would my right hon. Friend consider first a road loan amortised and generally guaranteed out of road users' taxation?

I will look at that but I do not think we want to perpetuate anything like the Road Fund. My correspondence is composed largely of letters from irate motorists saying, "Why do we not go back to the Road Fund? "

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has regarding the introduction of one-way traffic in Oxford Street, Bond Street and Regent Street in the west end of London.

I announced, in August. 1961, an outline scheme for one-way working in Oxford Street and part of Regent Street. I received a number of representations and counter-suggestions. I am considering these as well as the detailed implications of one-way working.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this matter is causing grave concern to business interests in the area, including the stores, and that already a contrary view has been expressed by traffic consultants about the benefits of a one-way traffic scheme in Oxford Street? Before my right hon. Friend makes any final proposals or attempts to implement any proposals, will he give an undertaking that he will consult those who are most interested, particularly the trading interests in the area concerned?

This is rather like the Highgate scheme or any other scheme that I have proposed. There are all sorts of objections from all sorts of people. The first thing I do is to make a draft scheme which I think will be to the benefit of people as a whole. Thereafter I listen to any suggestions or counter-suggestions, and we then try to hammer out a decent solution which_will give the greatest benefit to the greatest number. If I have achieved that I have achieved something. But in the process, as the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) has said, somebody is bound to be inconvenienced. But perhaps the majority become better off.

But this is a shopping area. Will my right hon. Friend please consider the fact that it is a shopping area and that it is far more important that it should retain its character than that it should be turned into a race track?

Of course I am aware of that, but I am bound to tell my hon. Friend that when I first proposed the Pink Zone the shopping interests told me that there should be no more parking meters and that the Pink Zone should be abandoned. Eighteen months later they wrote to me saying that they wanted to meet me because they thought the Pink Zone should be extended and made permanent and that parking meters should be extended. Therefore, they are not always right in their first thoughts.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has now completed his review of the proposals for the Victoria line underground railway; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now announce a date for the starting of the Victoria underground line.

No, Sir. I regret that I have nothing to add at this stage to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) on 3rd May.

How much longer will it take the Minister to accept the conclusions of every impartial committee which has considered this line, that it would not only make an enormous contribution to the solution of the traffic problems of London but would lead also to a great saving of money? Is it not time that the Minister made up his mind that the line must be built sooner or later, and that it had better be started at once?

Perhaps we can discuss this in the debate which follows Question Time.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, apart from the views of people in north-east London, there is also some agitation for this line from those who live on the south-west of London and come to Victoria? Will he bear in mind that, if it is difficult to spend money on roads in London, it might well be better to spend some of the money underground as well as on top?

I assure my hon. Friend that I shall give great attention to the agitation in the North-East, in the South-West and in the East and in the West.

Does not the Minister realise that the construction of this tube is indispensable to the solution of the problem of traffic congestion not only in north London but in central London also since the provision of an additional tube going through central London would ease congestion both above and below ground? What excuse can there be for delaying the project further?

The difficulty is the high capital cost and the fact that it will make a loss.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the construction will take several years once a decision is reached and that the whole of northeast London, therefore, hopes that he will come to an early decision on the matter?

I quite realise the urgency, but the House must understand that these great capital projects, if they make a revenue loss, will cause an increasing drain on the Exchequer, and everyone keeps asking the Government to reduce expenditure.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the cause of the delay? He has had the particulars of this scheme before him for many months. The London Transport Executive is prepared to go ahead and to let tenders as soon as it gets the "all clear" from him. What is the real reason for the long time lag before he comes to a decision one way or the other?

Cash, and the constant complaints of this House that we are spending too much money in the Government.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the disquiet about the lack of proper protection for children from the Longbenton Estate, Newcastle, following the electrocution of a young child on 31st May because one side of an electrified line is fenced-off by a wooden railing which provides no obstruction for a child; and if he will require a wire netting fence to be put up similar to that on the opposite side of the line, a proper fence to be erected on both sides of the bridge at this spot, and the wire netting to be fastened properly at the bottom and inspected every six months.

We are satisfied that the British Transport Commission has done what can reasonably be expected to protect this line and inspects the fencing regularly. But I am disturbed that children continue to trespass on electrified lines, and I should like to take this opportunity of asking parents and schoolteachers to warn children of the danger.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Question was put down to draw 'his attention to the existing situation? Has he not decided to do something extra, over and above what has been done in the past, to prevent these accidents to children?

This is always a very difficult subject. The Commission maintains what are called unclimbable fences at appropriate places alongside electrified lines in the vicinity of houses, schools and so on, but elsewhere, and particularly in open country, it is the Commission's policy to provide fencing of good quality which is appropriate to the use of the adjoining land. To ask the Commission to provide unclimbable fences throughout the whole length of its growing number of electrified lines would be an extremely expensive proposition.

If the Commission can erect a steel wire fence on one side of the line, it would not be much out of the way for it to do the same thing on the other side because children can get on to the line from that side as well. Cannot that be done?

It is an unfortunate fact that very little can be done to provide a fence that cannot be climbed or penetrated by the most determined child.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, with a view to avoiding congestion on the roads and overcrowding of public transport in London at the rush hours, he will take steps by the establishment of a central bureau and otherwise to co-ordinate plans for the staggering of working hours.

Work to promote staggered working hours in Central London is in the hands of six zone committees, which have knowledge of local conditions and co-ordinate arrangements in their zones through close contacts with employers and representatives of employees. We are reviewing the arrangements for coordinating the work of these zone committees.

Will the hon. Gentleman do something to expedite the coordination and to produce some amelioration of the present position, which is really laying intolerable stress and strain on the millions of people who have to suffer from this congestion both on the roads and on London Transport in the rush hours?

I would not want to minimise what has already been done. Since 1957 arrangements have been agreed with the various firms under which no fewer than 57,000 travellers now avoid the peak hours. But I think that there is a limit to which official action can help. A great deal more could be done if people voluntarily staggered their hours of going to and leaving work in particular.

Would not a decisive contribution to reducing congestion be made if private cars were prevented from using bus routes in London during rush hours to enable public transport to get a move on?

That sounds a remarkably simple solution, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that the cure would be much worse than the disease.

asked the Minister of Transport what new arrangements he has made for studying transport needs in the future and the best way of meeting them.

My Department has set on foot during recent months a systematic survey of the likely demand for inland transport facilities in twenty years' time. These studies are being supervised by Sir Robert Hall, and are being done in conjunction with other Government Departments and industrial and other interested organisations. I hope that there will emerge from these studies guiding lines for the consideration of the long-term transport policy of this country.

Will my right hon. Friend take account of the results of these wider studies before he accepts proposals for radical changes in the pattern of railway transport?

Whatever the conclusions may be, when they are reached, they will certainly help me. But I doubt whether we can wait for reorganisation of the railways until the proposals come forward.

Is it not likely to happen that if the right hon. Gentleman proceeds with the proposals which he has in mind to close urgently very large areas of the present railway system he may be taking action quite contrary to what the needs of the country may be in 20 years' time?

The right hon. Gentle. man has based his supplementary question on a false assumption. He has not the slightest idea of what I have in mind as far as the railway system goes.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give consideration to the compulsory installation of a double braking system on all heavy lorries in the interests of road safety.

The braking systems of heavy motor cars are at present required to have two independent means of operation either of which can bring the vehicle to rest within a reasonable distance under the most adverse conditions. My technical officers are considering a revision of current requirements in consultation with the motor industry, and in this connection I will take my hon. Friend's suggestion into account.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that he has had representations from road safety authorities about this matter, and will he give an assurance that any proposals will be implemented as soon as possible?

This is a complicated technical problem. There are all sorts of different braking systems in operation in this country. There is one where the foot pedal operates two distinct sorts of braking systems, and there is another where the foot pedal operates only one and the hand-brake another. We are in very close technical consultation with the industry, and I agree that it is highly desirable that we should advance on the braking systems in use in this country as soon as we possibly can.

Would my right Friend agree that, in view of the rapidly increasing size of motor vehicles on the roads, the reintroduction of the heavy goods vehicle licence would be in the interests of road safety?

I think this point comes under the Motor Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations. The real point is to get these systems built into the machines when they are first made, because adaptations and modifications are generally never so satisfactory as the incorporation of the system in the original vehicle.

asked the Minister of Transport what were the comparable fatal accident statistics for travel by train and road, respectively, within the United Kingdom during 1961.

There were 23 fatal train accidents in 1961, which resulted in the death of 9 passengers, 10 railway servants and 23 other persons. There were 6,360 fatal road accidents, in which 3,546 occupants of motor vehicles and 3,362 pedal cyclists and pedestrians were killed.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's startling announcement that he believes in the greatest good for the greatest number, may I ask him to take note of these figures when he proposes to close branch railways?

Certainly, especially when the branch railway carries only a single person.

In view of the alarming announcement which the right hon. Gentleman made to the House just now, will he consider whether, after every fatal accident on the roads, he should hold an inquiry as he does after a fatal accident on the railways? In many instances when fatal accidents occur, although police court proceedings may follow, there are peculiarities in the layout of the road and other circumstances which may have played a contributory part in the accident.

In the case of fatal accidents, the coroner always holds an inquest. Places on the roads where a large number of accidents occur are what we in the Ministry call "black spots". If a lot of accidents occur, we look at them and do our best to take remedial action, either by easing the curve, putting down a new surface, lopping off trees or dealing with whatever may be the cause of the accidents.

Is not the answer which my right hon. Friend has given proof that every £ spent on the roads is money well spent?

Provided that the design is good, I agree with that.

asked the Minister of Transport what representations he has made to the Government of Australia over the 33⅓ per cent. subsidy it pays towards the cost of ships built in Australian shipyards for Australian owners, in view of its effect on the United Kingdom shipbuilding industry.

The Australian Government have paid shipbuilding subsidies for a number of years in order that strategically necessary facilities may be maintained, but they are in no doubt about our concern that there should be as much freedom as possible for British shipbuilders to compete effectively in the Australian market.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that before 1958, there were 47 ships ordered by Australia in this country, and that now there are only two very small ships on order? Can he say what sort of Commonwealth preference this is?

Yes. Sir. I am aware of these figures, but, of course, the present subsidy provisions have been in force for some years, and I see very little prospect of persuading the Australian Government to withdraw them. With one exception, the subsidy has hitherto been confined to ships built in Australia for the Australian coastal trade. The Australians are well aware of our concern lest it should be extended generally to ocean-going vessels.

In view of the fact that it is proposed shortly to put an Order before Parliament whereby our own subsidies will be payable for ships built in foreign yards, what representations have been made to the Australian Government that these subsidies should be available outside Australia, and particularly in this country, in order to help our own shipbuilding industry?

With great respect to my hon. Friend, the two cases are not parallel at all.

Why do hon. Members opposite object to the Australian and Canadian Governments subsidising shipbuilding when the majority of them were prepared to subsidise the Cunard Line to the extent of £3.¾ million?

There, again, I cannot agree that these are parallel cases.

asked the Minister of Transport what representations he has made to the Government of Canada over the 40 per cent. subsidy it pays towards the cost of ships built in Canadian shipyards for Canadian owners, in view of its effect on the United Kingdom shipbuilding industry.

We have made it clear to the Canadian Government that we view with concern the effect which the subsidy regulations may have on British shipbuilding and exports.

Is my hon. Friend aware that we had 36 ships ordered from Canada and that now there are none on order for building in this country? In view of the attitude which the Canadian Government are taking to the negotiations with the European Economic Community, will my hon. and gallant Friend point out that this is not at all in the spirit of the free trade which they are so pleased to proclaim in other respects?

Yes, Sir. We are only too well aware of the effect which these subsidies have had on the orders placed in this country, and we are still discussing with the Canadian authorities the general principle involved. I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall continue to keep in close touch with the Canadian authorities to ensure that the regulations are administered in a way which will be the least harmful to British shipbuilders.

Can my hon. and gallant Friend say on which products or items of trade he is threatening taking retaliatory action unless something is done about this?

There is no question of retaliatory action at present under consideration.

Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that our shipbuilding industry needs much more support than it is getting from this Government? Is he aware that, on the one hand, we have American discrimination going on against our own people, and now we have discrimination by members of our own Commonwealth? All we are getting from the Government is platitudes about having discussions, but we are never getting any results. Can he say when we are likely to get some results?

If the hon. Gentleman can suggest some method by which we can counter the subsidies paid by these countries, he will be achieving something which nobody has yet been able to do. It is a very difficult problem to meet these foreign subsidies.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will list the British shipbuilding companies presently engaged in developing ships of hydrofoil construction.

I do not know of any British shipbuilder who is developing hydrofoil craft at the present time.

Is not this a tragedy? Is it not a possible line of naval architectural development which should be considered by the British shipbuilding industry? Are there no Government agencies which can spur on development in this field?

I would not agree that it is a tragedy. As to the possible development for naval use, that is entirely a matter for the Board of Admiralty. As to the development of experiments for commercial purposes, that is really a matter for my noble Friend the Minister for Science in the first instance.

It is not really a question of everything being someone else's responsibility. My hon. and gallant Friend is responsible for shipbuilding matters, and this implies naval and commercial practice. Surely some attention should be paid to this in his Department?

I should not like my hon. Friend to think that no attention is being paid to it, but, so far as my responsibilities are concerned, it is certainly no part of our task to finance initial research and development of this nature. That comes under quite different agencies.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the owners have decided to close Whiting Bay pier, that this action will deprive the inhabitants of the South end of the island of Arran of direct access to the mainland, thus tending to increase the cost of living, and that it will cause them and the visitors who come to the island extreme transport inconvenience; and if he will take the steps necessary to make the pier usable for this summer with a view to its complete rehabilitation for continuous use later.

My right hon. Friend has received an application from the owners for an order of abandonment and, in accordance with the relevant Statute, he will arrange for a local inquiry to be held after allowing the statutory period of three months for objections.

Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that even before the order to abandon the pier was applied for, the pier was closed? Is this the sort of Parliamentary procedure which the Government are to tolerate? The pier was closed, and then the order to close it was applied for. What is he going to do about that? Does he realise that this has been done on the eve of the opening of the summer trade, and that if he allows this act to go unchallenged, he will be making a major contribution to the depopulation of the Scottish Isles, which his Government say they are trying to stop?

There is, as I know the hon. Gentleman is aware, another pier at Brodick, eight miles away, and I understand that the steamer services are to be switched there. As to the merits of this case, I am sure that the hon. Member would not expect me to express any opinion pending the inquiry.

Of course, I would not expect the hon. and gallant Gentleman —I say this with the greatest respect to express an opinion on a problem which he knows nothing about, but will he not try to find out something about it? If he does inquire into it, he will find that Brodick Pier cannot carry the traffic that goes to the Isle of Arran in the peak periods. Will he look into that aspect? Will he please decide to try to keep this pier at Whiting Bay open for at least the period of this summer?

As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, these are exactly the points that will come out at the public inquiry.

But the pier is closed now.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a further statement on the shipping dispute with the United States of America.

I assume that my hon. Friend refers to the case known as Docket 906. Discussions are continuing between the Federal. Maritime Commission and the shipping companies concerned.

Will my right hon. Friend accept it from one who has criticised him occasionally that we will do our utmost to back him up in his resolve to defend British interests and his refusal to encourage lines to produce documents to the Americans?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that support so long as he will omit the word "occasionally".