asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the diminution in certain species of useful and edible fish in the customary North Sea fishing grounds; and if he will set up a commission of inquiry into the cause of this, with a view to restoring the productivity of these fishing grounds.

Haddock and herring are the only species of commercial importance which have diminished in the North Sea in recent years. We shall continue to support the efforts made to deal with these problems internationally through the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea and the Permanent Commission set up under the 1946 Convention, and I see no advantage in setting up a commission of inquiry.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the causes of this diminution go much deeper than is indicated in his answer? Does he not agree that the diminution is due largely to the policy of the present Government in giving undue encouragement to foreign fishing fleets in competition with British fishing fleets? Will the hon. Gentleman have the matter further investigated with a view to getting at the root causes and seeing that justice is done to British and particularly Scottish fishing fleets?

My original answer did not go into the causes, which are a combination of natural causes and over-fishing. The hon. and learned Gentleman will be pleased to hear that, as a result of proposals made by the United Kingdom, the Permanent Commission agreed at its recent meeting on measures to be introduced next year for the closer regulation of the use of small-mesh nets, which is one of the things the hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give a list of the types of fishing trawler contracts which have hitherto gone to Scottish shipbuilding firms but which this year have gone to European and South American shipbuilding firms.

None, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that owners and workers in British shipyards, and particularly in north-east Scottish shipyards, are complaining of the lack of orders and of work, which is due largely to the encouragement given by the present Government to foreign shipyards, particularly by giving grants and loans to foreign shipyards, and thereby depriving British shipyards and British workers of work to which they are entitled? Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to change that policy and see that justice is done to British and particularly Scottish shipyards?

What the hon. and learned Gentleman says cannot be so, for until schemes are laid before Parliament there will not be any grants and loans given for building fishing ships abroad. The schemes will be laid before Parliament and will be debated then.

Is the Minister not aware that the future policy of the Government is to encourage building in foreign yards? Is there not a danger that this may have harmful effects on our home shipping industry? Will he consult his colleagues in the Cabinet and have the policy reversed?

There is no question of encouraging owners to get ships built abroad, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. When the schemes are laid it will be seen that it will be possible for owners in this country to get boats built either at home or abroad and still be able to get the grants and loans, but there will be many provisos in the arrangements which are made which will ensure that there is fair competition from the point of view of our yards.

Apart from the verbiage, cannot the right hon. Gentleman make it clear to everybody that it is the Government's policy to encourage ship-owners to have ships built abroad? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that this scheme will encourage people to build abroad instead of in this country?

It is not a question of encouraging, as the hon. Member well knows. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has had consultations with leaders of the fishing industry and their views will be taken into account when the arrangements are made.

Is it not a fact, though, that what is worrying the British shipbuilding industry is that the competition may not be fair? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it will be fair? Will he furthermore confirm that if the fishing industry needs ships but cannot always get them built at home, it is very much up to the shipbuilding industry to see that it supplies the fishing vessels which are required?

Yes, Sir. As to the question of fair competition, I assure my hon. Friend that the arrangements will be such as to ensure that our grants will not be used in such a way that the competitive position of British yards would be prejudiced in any way by competition from yards abroad which can be shown to be in receipt of a material element of subsidy.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, what new discussions he has had with representatives of the fishing industry about proposals to extend the grants and loans scheme to foreign-built trawlers.

Proposals on the procedure to be followed when applications to build abroad are made to the White Fish Authority have been circulated to the fishing interests concerned, and have been discussed with the builders by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and his Parliamentary Secretary. These proposals are being finally adjusted in the light of the comments of both industries.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the British Trawlers Federation and similar organisations are sympathetic to the Government's view? Can my right hon. Friend explain the methods that we shall use to get fair competition as between British yards and foreign yards?

First, I assure my hon. Friend that we have had no representations from the British Trawlers Federation or from other fishing interests against the Government's proposals. Secondly, the purpose of the procedures that we shall be laying down will be to ensure that British yards have an equal chance to compete. That is obviously most important. The matter will be divided into two. First, an applicant who wishes to place an order abroad will be required to obtain tenders from a sufficient number of yards in the United Kingdom to ensure that a genuine opportunity to compete has been given to our home yards. Secondly, in such cases, the same specification in as complete a form as practicable will be issued to each competing yard to ensure that the tenders can be assessed on a common basis.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will estimate the payments on home-and foreign-built white fish and herring vessels, separately, each year under any schemes made after the Sea Fish Industry Bill becomes law.

It is not possible to forecast over the years ahead how many people will take advantage of the grants available under these schemes, or how many of them will wish to have vessels built abroad.

Is it not extremely risky that my right hon. Friend should introduce a scheme like this, which may drain foreign currency reserves, and so on, without having any form of estimate about what is involved?

It is obviously quite impossible to say how many owners who would otherwise have had vessels built in home yards would have them built in foreign yards. One's estimate must be based on whether one has confidence in the competitive ability of our shipbuilding industry, and this we have.

Is not the Minister aware that people outside this House believe that the Government are letting down British shipping interests? Will he ensure that this matter is reconsidered? After all, this is a vital matter which concerns not only the shipping industry as a whole but the nation.

It is not my information that people outside the House think what the hon. Gentleman chooses to say they think.

It is not good enough to say that the British shipbuilding industry will be treated equally with foreigners. It should be treated preferentially. Can my right hon. Friend explain what possible justification there can be, under any circumstances, for paying British taxpayers' money to foreign competitors? Also, can he say what Parliamentary control there will be over this expenditure?

The justification is that to continue as we have been doing in the past now that we have to alter the scheme in any case to bring in the larger vessels would be contrary to our international obligations.

Does not the Minister realise that it is thoroughly unpatriotic as well as illogical and impracticable to consult the experts in the fishing industry after instead of before deciding on this atrocious policy? Will he reconsider the matter and change his policy so that justice can be done to British shipyards and British shipyard workers?

I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that we have consulted the British fishing interests and that they are not opposed to the schemes which have been put forward by the Government.

In these discussions, was my right hon. Friend satisfied that no order would go to a foreign yard which was in receipt of some form of hidden subsidy from its own Government either in tax turnover or by other financial arrangements of that kind?

We shall be setting out to ensure in the rules that we shall be laying down within the schemes that advantage is not given to foreign yards which are in receipt of any material subsidy.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will consult the National Farmers' Union with a view to taking steps to prevent the infliction of unnecessary suffering to farm animals by the methods used for castration, the dehorning of calves and the docking of sheep.

I am sure that in general farmers are concerned for the wellbeing of their animals. The Protection of Animals (Anaesthetics) Act, which provides against unnecessary suffering to animals from operations on sensitive tissue or bone structure, was brought in in 1954, with the support of the veterinary profession and of the Animal Welfare Societies, the National Farmers' Unions and the National Cattle Breeders' Association.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman very warmly for that sympathetic reply, may I ask whether he would not agree that we cannot be too vigilant in this matter of preventing unnecessary suffering? When the right hon. Gentleman receives the report on the need to bring the Protection of Animals Act up to date, particularly in the use of anaesthetics on farms, will he contact the Home Secretary with a view to introducing amending legislation?

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the patience she has shown in keeping this Question on the Order Paper for about two months before I have been able to answer it. I take the point she has made. We have said that we would see whether improvements could be made. It is almost eight years since this Measure was before the House, in 1954, but if we can see the possibility of making any necessary improvement in the legislation we will certainly do our best to have that improvement made.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will allow Service men's dogs, returning from the rabies-free island of Cyprus, to be excluded from quarantine regulations when entering the United Kingdom, provided they travel in sealed containers.

No, Sir. I do not think it would be right to relax our strict quarantine arrangements which have kept the country free from rabies for so long.

Will my right hon. Friend look at this matter again? Is he aware that considerable hardship is caused unnecessarily to Service men by a regulation which does not apply to Eire, which is not a member of the Commonwealth? Cannot an exception be made also for Cyprus, which is a member of the Commonwealth?

The whole of the British Isles, including Eire, has exactly the same quarantine arrangements. Indeed, the veterinary surgeons who see that these arrangements are implemented go to the same colleges, and for the purpose of quarantine Eire and the United Kingdom are considered as one entity. It is not so in the case of Cyprus. We would not think it right at present to extend the boundaries of our protection without the British Isles.

In that case, would not my right hon. Friend look at the whale question? Is it not clear that there are now satisfactory ways of immunising dogs? Should we not relax these very strict regulations which cause great hardship to animal lovers?

It is easy to talk in terms of perfectly satisfactory ways of immunising dogs, but experience has shown that even the most modern vaccines are not 100 per cent. efficient. This is a most terrible disease. We have not had it in this country, except in quarantine, for about forty years. Indeed, the World Health Organisation has advised that those countries which impose quarantine should continue to do so. Whereas 3 million dog licences are issued each year in this country, only about 3,000 dogs, or 0·1 per cent. of that total number of dogs, come into the country and we do not wish to put at risk our indigenous dog population.

Is it not a fact that the veterinary surgeons in Cyprus were trained at the same colleges as those in Eire and, therefore, the argument that applies to Eire ought to apply to Cyprus?

It would be a very wide extension to go from the British Isles way out to Cyprus. Dogs belonging to Service men move from Germany to Cyprus and we would not have anything like the same control as we have at present.

Could my right hon. Friend give an undertaking to look at this whole question of quarantine himself now and again and not rely too much on the advice of the Civil Service, which is apt to be handed down and not reviewed as often as it should be?

I assure my hon. Friend that I have given a good deal of consideration to this problem and I have had the fullest consultations with representatives of the veterinary and medical professions.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the increase in bacon imports.

Bacon imports during the first five months of 1962 at 168,000 tons were almost identical with the volume of imports in the corresponding period of 1960 although 10 per cent. up on last year. But the hon. Member will remember that last year Danish imports to this country were affected by strikes in Denmark and at the London Docks.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this matter was debated in an Adjournment debate initiated by one his hon. Friends on 6th June when it was shown that imports for the first four months of this year were £2½ million more than for the same period last year and that the farming community is concerned about it? Is there not a danger that very soon the subsidy problem will again have to be faced by the Government and we may require an increased estimate at a later date?

Imports of bacon from January through to May totalled 170,000 tons in 1960 and 153,000 tons in 1961. The total was then well down because of strikes in Denmark and this country. This year the total is 168,000 tons, which is about the level at which imports have stood, apart from last year, for quite a period of time.

Is my right hon. Friend altogether happy about the size of the present home pig herd? Will he give us his views?

I am anxious that production at home should have regard to market requirements. At the Annual Price Review the year before last, we brought in flexible guarantee arrangements designed to encourage the keeping of our herd at about 10·5 million certifications each year. We impose a disincentive if the herd rises above that figure and an incentive if it falls below it. This was agreed with the National Farmers' Union. It looks from the movement in the size of our pig herd since that was introduced as if the disincentive has not been sufficient, and I must give warning that if expansion continues at the present rate, arrangements will have to be considered at the next Review substantially to modify it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has had from the Lincolnshire River Board for increased fishing licence duties.

My right hon. Friend has received no representations from the river board, but I understand that it gave notice in the local Press on 22nd June that it intends to seek his approval to certain increases in duty.

Is the Minister aware that the proposed increases as published in the Press would mean more than trebling the existing licence duties and that this has caused great concern to over 70,000 people who hold licences to fish from the Lincolnshire River Board? Will he, before giving approval, take into account the fact that any such change would make these licence duties the highest in the country, and will he ensure that the amount eventually fixed is not such that the anglers will be subsidising other activities of the river board?

The proposals cannot in any case be submitted for approval until the end of this month. Before deciding whether or not to approve them, my right hon. Friend will have to take into account any objections received, which, no doubt, will include the points which the hon. Gentleman has made, and he may consider that it is a case for holding a public inquiry, though this, of course, will have to be decided in due course. The new duties, if they were approved, could not take effect until 1st January next.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the comparative prices which livestock realised in auctions in the weeks ending 19th May and 23rd June; and if he will take steps to notify the public of any changes which have taken place.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the recent movements of meat prices.

Wholesale beef prices declined gradually from the beginning of the year until towards the end of May, when they began to rise. Market prices for cattle in the week ending 19th May were 138s. 2d. and in the week ending 23rd June, 145s. 7d. per cwt. liveweight. Wholesale prices of home produced lamb have been falling gradually as numbers increased. Prices for sheep in the same two weeks were 40·5d. and 33·5d. per 1b. deadweight. Pigmeat prices have been falling with the increase in home production and with the seasonal slackening of demand. Auction prices for pork pigs in the same weeks were 34s. 8d. and 31s. 8d. per score deadweight. Recently bacon prices have been firmer. Fatstock market and wholesale prices are readily available for those who wish to make use of them. They are regularly quoted in the agricultural and local Press and in some national papers.

I am much obliged for those figures, and I apologise to the Minister for having demanded such a long list.

I was not talking in terms of an implied threat. What I said, which is still true today, was that we expected that during the later summer months, when we had a considerable increase in the number of cattle and sheep coming on the market, there would be a considerable falling off in wholesale prices as we had last year, though this would come some months later this year than it did last year, and we expected to see a corresponding drop in the shops when that time came. Meanwhile, during May, as the hon. Gentleman has said, the grass having come considerably later this year than it did last year because of the weather, wholesale prices have been firm and the prices in butchers' shops have been realistic in relation to the wholesale prices.

Although it may be true that beef prices are realistic in the sense that wholesale prices have gone up and, therefore, retail prices should follow, is it not a fact that, although pig prices in the markets are down, retail prices of pork have not come down to anything like the same extent even taking into account the fixed costs in wholesaling and retailing? If this situation continues, will not the Minister have to ask for increased money to pay for the increased subsidies by an additional Estimate? Rather than wait for this committee of inquiry, ought we not to take action now to deal with the situation? Why not have a system of guaranteed prices working throughout the trade?

I do not quite know what the hon. Gentleman means by a system of guaranteed prices working throughout the trade. If he means control of the prices of meat throughout the trade, we should not countenance that at the present time. I look forward to the results of this inquiry being very helpful for the long-term future. As regards this year's Estimates, I learned last year how difficult it is to make accurate forecasts, but, so far, in the first quarter of this year, I have no reason as yet to suppose that the estimates we have made for the current year will be falsified by events.

Reverting to the Minister's reply to my supplementary question, does not he think that, after saying things about possible decreases in prices, he ought to give similar publicity to increases in prices?

Movements in wholesale prices and the prices at Smithfield Market are readily available for anyone who wants to publish them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many other schemes similar to the profitable joint forestry enterprise of the Liverpool Corporation and the Forestry Commission at Lake Vyrnwy are in operation; and how many similar schemes are contemplated.

The Lake Vyrnwy scheme is the only one of its kind. The Forestry Commission has no similar schemes in view, but it is always prepared to consider proposals from local authorities.

In view of this very successful collaboration between the local authorities and the Commission, will the Minister consider encouraging the Forestry Commission to plant, in conjunction with the local authorities, derelict land such as pit heaps and places of that kind, particularly in County Durham?

In the course of its years of operation, the Forestry Commission has purchased a great deal of derelict land and planted it, to the benefit of local districts as well as of our timber supply; but I think that the hon. Gentleman has something rather wider in mind, and I shall consider what he has said.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what effect the economic crisis, referred to in the 42nd Report of the Forestry Commissioners, has had on the Commission's programme for 1962–63.

The economies already effected by the Commission in minor works, in response to the Chancellor's drive for economy in Government Departments, will not affect the planting programme.

Will it affect the industrial staff? There was a reduction of 98 in the industrial staff and an increase of 10 in the non-industrial staff last year. Can the hon. Gentleman guarantee at least that the number of industrial staff will be maintained and, if possible, increased?

The number of industrial staff will, of course, depend upon the work there is for them to do. Since the Commission is continuing to expand its work, the assumption is that there will, as the years go by, be a need for a slowly increasing staff. I assure the hon. Gentleman that there have been no dismissals in the labour force as a result of the minor economies to which I have referred. A few men who have retired have not been replaced.

Why was there a reduction of nearly 100 in the industrial staff last year?

The demand for work varies somewhat from area to area according to the amount of planting there has to be done. As the hon. Gentleman knows from his constituency, where this work is important, work in forestry operations is not even throughout the whole life of a plantation. There is a great demand for labour in the preparation of the ground, the planting and the establishment of young plantations, and then there is a tendency for the demand to fall off until a later stage when the crop comes to be realised.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware of the importance of the necessary thinnings programme which goes on at an increasing tempo in the Forestry Commission's work? Is he certain that the Commission is keeping abreast of the thinnings programme in order that the various forests will reach maturity in the proper way at the proper time?

One is, of course, aware of the increasing thinnings problem, which is, perhaps, the biggest problem which the Commission now faces. It is keeping very well up to date with it, but no forester is ever completely satisfied with his thinnings programme.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now make an authoritative estimate of the increase in food prices which will result from entry into the European Economic Community.

We are concerned in the negotiations to agree terms with the E.E.C. so that the necessary rises in food prices will be at a gradual and reasonable rate over a period of years. The extent of the increase by the time the full common market stage was reached —which on the Six's own timetable will not be until 1970—would depend on the level at which prices to producers in the enlarged Community are eventually determined. It is impossible to forecast what these prices will be eight years from now, or, indeed, what they would be by then if we stayed outside the Community. I cannot therefore estimate by how much our accession to the Community would increase food prices in this country, compared with what they otherwise would be. But I would not expect the increase to be large; and there would be compensating factors of which an important one would be a considerable reduction in the farm subsidy bill met by the taxpayer.

I am now as wise as I was before the Question was tabled. Can the Minister tell us what the weekly increase per head of the population will be? That is what we want to know. Will he confirm that the increase per head of the population will be quite substantial and that it will affect most hardly the lower income groups of the population in which there are many millions of people? Further, will he give the assurance that any consequent reductions in taxation will be given to the lower income groups and not to other wealthier sections of the community?

The hon. Gentleman is asking me to be clairvoyant, and that I do not claim to be.

Can my right hon. Friend say, when we go on to a different system of support prices for agriculture under the Common Market——

If we go in.

—if or when—to what extent the reduction in indirect subsidies will offset the rises in food prices?

One cannot give the exact figures, for the reasons which I gave in my Answer, but obviously there will be a considerable offsetting through a reduction in taxation. Whether it will be 100 per cent. or to what extent it will be lower, one cannot tell.

The Minister is emotionally susceptible to the European concept. That was obvious from his speech the other day. The simple fact is that the Minister does not know what will happen, and that is what concerns many people in this country and the farming community. Will the right hon. Gentleman try to give some information from time to time instead of hiding behind general verbiage?

If I am asked what the price of food will be in 1970 if we join the Common Market, I really cannot say.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what reply he has sent to the telegram from the Durham County Branch of the National Farmers' Union regarding the United Kingdom's entry into the Common Market.

None, Sir, as it was not addressed to me. But my right hon. Friend was good enough to send me a copy.

Then will my right hon. Friend be good enough to send me an answer some time? Is he aware that this telegram referred to the fact that Durham farmers are sick of platitudes and sick of the absence of any clear-cut statement of Government policy and that they look to the Government and to the Opposition for the fulfilment of the unqualified undertaking so often given in the past? Will my right hon. Friend give an unqualified undertaking to the British farmers that their interests will be safeguarded?

I understand that the purport of the telegram sent to my hon. Friend and to other hon. Members representing Durham constituencies was that the Durham County Branch of the National Farmers' Union was anxious whether the assurances given by the Government before we entered into negotiations that we would have in mind the preservation of the vital interests of the agricultural community still applied and the answer is, "Yes, Sir".

Is the Minister aware that officials of the Durham County Branch of the N.F.U. met the northern group of Members of Parliament on the Opposition side and were satisfied with the Opposition's approach?

If that is the case, the farmers of Durham must be awfully clever.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement about the Pembrokeshire early potato crop.

Because of weather conditions the harvesting of Pembrokeshire first early potatoes this year was delayed by about three weeks as compared with last year, but most of the crop has now been lifted. The acreage planted was higher than last year; yields were low at first but have been improving considerably. The quality of the crop is generally good, and indeed better than in previous seasons.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, arising from his policy, my constituents are very well pleased with the profits which they have made, so well pleased in fact that they are contemplating erecting a statue to him at Haverfordwest? The one difficulty is the inscription. They are wondering whether they should use the form of a famous figure of the 1930s and call it "Captain Potato Soames", or whether he would prefer the Welsh traditional description of "Soames the Potato".

I have a sneaking feeling that the hon. Gentleman thought up that supplementary question before he heard my Answer.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many representations he has received from the National Federation of Fish Fryers concerning the shortage of potatoes.

Since the end of last September, I have received three letters from the Federation urging that imports of main crop potatoes should be allowed. Two of these came in 1961 when the development of any serious shortage could not be foreseen, and one in March a few days before imports were in fact permitted.

Can my right hon. Friend say how it was that the Potato Marketing Board was so completely inaccurate in its forecast that there would he no shortage of potatoes? What action is my right hon. Friend taking, not only to try to ensure that a shortage on this scale does not recur, but also to improve the quality of home-grown potatoes?

Concerning the estimate for this year and the quantity of potatoes that would be forthcoming, it was not until the March census was taken by the Potato Marketing Board that it was seen what a heavy toll the severe weather in the late winter had had upon the potatoes that were in clamps. The yield gathered out of the ground from the acreage planted was almost exactly the quantity that the country consumes, but the weather took its toll in the late winter. As to the future, this is not a quota year, as my hon. Friend will appreciate, and it was up to farmers to plant what they wished, which is well in excess of anything we are likely to need. There was, however, a shortage of seed, which will reflect itself in the acreage planted. The quality of potatoes is something which the Potato Marketing Board is trying constantly to improve.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will authorise the use of the vaccine to immunise cattle against Johne's disease.

The progress of work on this vaccine has been carefully reviewed during the past few weeks. My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to take a decision whether or not he can authorise its general use in about a year's time.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is the third year running that I have asked this Question and that on previous occasions I have been answered by the Minister himself? I am delighted to know that there is a possibility that something will now be done. Does not my hon. Friend think that it would be possible to allow different vaccine to be used in self-contained herds which have a good record with no reactors for a number of years?

My hon. Friend knows, I think, that one of the difficulties of using this vaccine is that having vaccinated certain animals it is possible to mask the reinfection of tuberculosis. It is a highly complicated matter, and it would surely be a retrograde step to risk the spread of tuberculosis when we have virtually eradicated it from our cattle. Progress is, however, being made and, as I have said, it is hoped that it may be possible to tackle this disease seriously in about a year's time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he is taking to inform the general public of the new Food Regulations which improve the quality of flour and bread sold after 16th July next.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Emulsifiers and Stabilisers in Food Regulations. A Press notice was issued when these were made and the details were published in a number of national and trade papers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the vast majority of the public do not know anything at all about this? Twelve years of propaganda was required before this modest improvement in the quality of bread could be effected on 16th July next. To maintain interest in this vital subject, will the Minister give an undertaking that the further very necessary improvement in the quality of bread and flour will not be delayed more than a year or two?

Before the hon. Member put down his Question, we had decided to issue a further notice to the Press immediately before the Regulations come into force later this month. I assure the hon. Member that we are making progress in what are really the more important Regulations dealing with bread.

Within the next two years?

I hope in a matter of months.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will give the reasons for the large increase in fees for renewing pilots' licences as outlined in the Civil Information Circular No. 43/1962.

asked the Minister of Aviation what increase in the cost of a pilot's licence has been imposed; and what consultations took place with the trade unions concerned.

These increases are intended to reduce the loss to the Exchequer which the issue and renewal of pilots' licences involve. The present fees are set out in the information circular to which the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir E. Errington) refers. The specific fees were not the subject of consultation, but substantial increases were forecast in the Command Paper "Aviation Safety" which was presented to the House on 16th April.

Does not my hon. Friend realise how great these increases are? The basic increase is from £1 12s. 6d. to £5 10s. 0d. Will he reconsider the matter?

I appreciate that these are very serious increases, but I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind that for some years we have conducted the service of examining and issuing licences at a substantial loss to the Treasury. One of the consequences has been that far too many pilots have presented themselves for examination unprepared. We do not believe that this is a satisfactory situation.

Is it not the case that in correspondence with me the hon. Gentleman has said that one of the reasons is to prevent an excessive entry for the examinations? Would it not be possible to charge an entrance fee for these examinations rather than this increase of more than 300 per cent. in the cost of the licence?

I do not recall using the exact expression "excessive entry". What we are aiming to do is to make sure that any pilot who presents himself for examination does so fully prepared. I do not follow in what way an entry fee would differ from our present system.

Will my hon. Friend ask his right hon. Friend to have another look at this? This is an increase of more than 300 per cent.—an enormous increase. At least, it should not have been undertaken without previous consultation with the British Air Line Pilots' Association. Does my hon. Friend not appreciate that these constant rises in the public sector are irritating and annoy- ing, not only to members of the public, but also to Members of this House?

I must repudiate my hon. Friend's remark about constant rises. There has been no rise in these fees since 1958, and they are still low in relation to the cost to the Treasury of providing the service. As I have said, there was no consultation with the British Air Line Pilots' Association. We knew very well what its reaction was bound to be, but we forwarded to the Association a copy of the White Paper before it was published. That White Paper contained a forecast of increases and the British Air Line Pilots' Association did not then indicate, and has not subsequently indicated, that it felt that it should be consulted.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that this is a fantastically high increase at one go? Now that he has heard the opinions of hon. Members, on both sides, would he not agree to ask the Pilots' Association to meet the Ministry and to hear its representations? Certainly, if the Association has not made representations to the Minister, it has made them to many of us. I am sure that it would be the feeling of the House that instead of rather disgracefully ignoring a bona fide trade union of this type, it would be a good thing if, even now, the Minister agreed to meat the Association and to postpone the application of these increases until that is done?

I agree that the increases are high, but not that they are fantastically high, as the hon. Member suggests. My right hon. Friend is, of course, always ready to meet the Association if it wishes to meet him, but I cannot give any undertaking that the increases, which are already in effect, will be withdrawn.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I will raise this matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is yet in a position to form an estimate of the probable delivery date of the Government's order for Avro 748 military aircraft; and how this compares with the delivery date of the Handley Page Herald.

I have nothing to add to what I told the House in the Adjournment debate on 4th April last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he should have something to add, and if he does not have an accurate estimate of delivery dates, he should (have made inquiries? Is it not a fact that the Avro 748 has been chosen before the military Herald simply because it is the Government's policy to encourage the companies that have amalgamated? Is it not a fact that this is an expenditure of public money on an aircraft which will be later than the military Herald, which fact in itself is prejudicial to the Armed Forces?

No, Sir, that is not the case. I set out the reasons for the choice at some length when I spoke on 4th April. On the essential point of completion of delivery to the Royal Air Force of either aircraft, the time scale was the same.

Is the Minister not aware that the Herald has been tested and will be in production sooner than the Avro 748, that it suits the needs of the Royal Air Force and that, indeed, the R.A.F. prefers it? It is a cheaper aircraft to buy than the Avro 748. Will the hon. Gentleman now state briefly why orders were placed for it?

I set out the reasons much more than briefly in speaking on 4th April and I have nothing to add Ito what I then said.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will now announce his decision in regard to the rise in pay for industrial telephonists at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough; and whether he will make a statement.

The pay of industrial telephonists at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough, is not a matter for my decision. Increases in pay for all female industrial telephonists in the Civil Service, in stages from 1st January, 1961, to 1st January, 1963, were approved by the Treasury last month. Accordingly, payment is being made this week at the new rates, including the arrears. The pay of male industrial telephonists at Farnborough is on a different basis and remains unchanged, but from 1st January next both male and female industrial telephonists will receive non-industrial status and common scales of pay.

Is it correct that up to 1st January, 1963, females are receiving more than male telephonists? Also, have any arrangements been made to preserve the differentials in respect of supervising telephonists?

It is the case that in some age groups female telephonists will get more than men between now and 1st January next year. This is an inevitable consequence of the fact that the rates are negotiated within separate negotiating machineries. There are three supervisors at Farnborough, and they are all G.P.O. staff and will, therefore, receive the 4 per cent. increase in the national rates announced last Friday.

asked the Minister of Aviation what further progress has been made in his negotiations concerning the Christchurch factory; and to what extent these negotiations will ensure continuity of employment for all those who work there.

A number of inquiries have been received and the factory has been inspected by several firms. Until a definite offer is received, I cannot say what the employment prospects will be. It must, however, be recognised that there may be an idle period after de Havillands leave on 30th September.

What arrangements are being made to absorb in other industries in the travel-to-work area the 400–500 employees who will be redundant at the end of this month?

That is not a question for my Department.

Were we not told on one occasion that there had practically been agreement with one firm to take over the factory? What has happened about that? Is the Ministry asking a rental which the firm considers too high, or is the factory itself too big, in which event could not the right hon. Gentleman reach agreement for a tenancy of part of it?

It is the case that the Beagle Aircraft Company was at one time very much interested in the factory and was very near to making an agreement to take it. Its reasons for finally withdrawing were not due to the level of rent set by the Ministry. They were due to other considerations of its own.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is satisfied that the regulations governing the level of noise at United Kingdom airports do not involve the risk of using inadequate power or dangerous throttling back on take-off; and if he will make a statement.

I am satisfied that the procedures for noise abatement do not involve any risk which would prejudice safety. They have been worked out in collaboration with the International Air Transport Association and with their full agreement.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in the case of modern long-range aircraft take-off at full load is the most critical part of the flight and that at that time the captain's attention should be directed entirely towards making a safe and efficient take-off and that it is undesirable that his attention should be diverted in any way by consideration of whether he is making too much noise?

Yes, Sir; I am very well ware of all those considerations. In fact, the noise abatement procedures do not require the pilot to reduce speed or undertake any kind of manœuvre below 1,000 feet.

asked the Minister of Aviation what further steps he will take to obtain fresh tenders for the erection of the hotel at Prestwick Airport.

The Ministry of Aviation has written to all the concerns who have at any time expressed interest in the proposition, to enquire whether there are any points in the terms proposed which have discouraged tenderers, and whether they wish to suggest an alternative basis on which they would be prepared to tender. Any suggestions will be examined, and if they are acceptable, invitations will be issued to all the concerns to tender on the amended basis.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, which shows a very close appreciation of the difficulties involved in building this hotel, may I ask him whether it is not obvious that as only one tender was received and it was unacceptable, the terms which have been put into the contract must be so rigid, unremunerative and complicated that no contractor can even afford to tender?

I have a great respect for the business shrewdness of my hon. Friend's fellow countrymen, but in this case I do not understand why the terms should be regarded as rigid. One of the terms that we expressly proposed to tenderers was that they themselves should quote how much they would be prepared to pay in terms of a percentage of the gross takings as the price of the concession.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the hotel at Prestwick is to be run in the interests of the nation, which was responsible for the heavy expenditure on Prestwick, or is to be handed over to speculative private enterprise?

It is out to tender in the normal commercial way.

asked the Minister of Aviation what progress has been made in the evaluation of a navigational aid to meet the requirements specified by Eurocontrol; and whether any representations have been made by the United States Government or by any United States aviation organisation that these requirements should be changed.

Arrangements are now being made by the Eurocontrol Association to conduct tests of a navigational aid known as HARCO. No representations of the kind described have been put before the Eurocontrol Association.

Does the hon. Gentleman recollect that in 1959, partly as a result of the inactivity of the British Government, United States aviation organisations induced the international civil aviation organisation to standardise on a form of equipment which was quite inferior to the British equipment then available? Will he make sure that on this occasion a navigation system is adopted on the ground of technical merit and not from political pressure?

I recollect the decision in 1959, though not the part in it ascribed by the hon. Gentleman to my Department. The decision in the case of Eurocontrol will be taken by the Eurocontrol Association, and it will certainly be taken on the ground of technical merits. We, as members of the Association, will have a substantial influence in the consideration of the type of navigational aid to be adopted, and we have a larger weighted vote than any other member.

asked the Minister of Aviation what changes he intends to make in the implementation of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, in so far as it falls within his responsibilities, in view of the British Overseas Airways Corporation-Cunard merger.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now introduce legislation to amend the Air Transport Licensing Act to bring it into line with his policy regarding air transport changes.

No changes in the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, or in its implementations are necessary as a result of the recent agreement between British Overseas Airways Corporation and Cunard, or of any other changes that I am at present aware of.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend told us last Tuesday that merging the United Kingdom effort on the North Atlantic was a useful decision because of the fierce competition on those routes? How, then, can he justify dividing our United Kingdom airways' effort on the European routes, where competition is equally fierce?

My right hon. Friend was referring to international competition. The agreement between B.O.A.C. and Cunard Eagle arose from the companies themselves and was not due to any policy initiated toy my right bon. Friend.

But do not the arguments used by the Minister of Aviation last week apply equally to B.E.A. or to the other B.O.A.C. routes? Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that this is merely another example of Government muddle and not an attempt to introduce denationalisation of the Corporations by the backdoor?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is neither an example of Government muddle nor an attempt to introduce denationalisation by the back door.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this merger may have become inevitable but should not have become inevitable if the Minister had not refused a licence to Eagle Aviation for the Atlantic route earlier in the year, and that it is ridiculous to waste the time of the House by bringing in a Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act one year only to undermine it two years later?

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend's decision last year was taken on the merits of the case and does not in any way affect the operation of the Act.

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, is intended to deal only with international competition? Surely he will recollect that long before 1960 there was a complete public monopoly on the North Atlantic route? Then we had the whittling down of it, and in 1960 we had the Act, which gave the possibility of licences for independent airlines. We now have a position where the one independent airline which could do anything about it is inside the combination with B.O.A.C. What is the point of keeping on the Statute Book that part of the 1960 Act which deals with the need for competition?

I was not suggesting that the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act was concerned with international competition. I was explaining to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) the significance of a point made by my right hon. Friend in his reply last week. The decision between B.O.A.C. and Cunard-Eagle affects just one sector of international aviation. It does not in any way affect any other sector which is covered by the Act.

As the Minister kept the Cunard-Eagle Company off the North Atlantic, on the basis that there was already sufficient capacity to take care of all growth on all B.O.A.C. routes in the next five or six years, upholding the decision of the Appeal Commissioner on that basis, why does he now put Cunard-Eagle on the North Atlantic in another guise?

My right hon. Friend has not put Cunard-Eagle on the Atlantic in another guise. He has simply approved an arrangement between two companies reached between themselves.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the effect of the 1960 Act is the same on the European and Middle East areas as it is on the North Atlantic? If dividing our effort on the North Atlantic is bad, how can dividing our effort on the European and Eastern routes be good?

The effect of the 1960 Act was to permit competition, not to make competition compulsory. It still remains open to any airline operator to compete, or to make pooling arrangements, or not to compete, as he may choose.