asked the Minister of Education what action he proposes to take in order to meet the demand for primary and secondary education in North Coventry; and whether he will authorise the Coventry local education authority to prepare plans for building a new comprehensive school in the area near Rookery Farm, and to provide increased primary school places at White moor Secondary School which can then be available for primary education.

I have included in the 1963–64 building programme one primary and one secondary school project to provide additional places in the northern part of Coventry. I shall consider the proposal for an instalment of a new school at Rookery Farm with the authority's other submissions for the 1964–65 programme.

In welcoming that reply, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that it would be a great pity if the civic, cultural and industrial achievement of the city did not have an educated generation capable of appreciating it? In these circumstances, will he give special attention to the pressing needs of Coventry, which has a high rate of population growth, particularly related to the high birth rate and also to immigration from other parts of the country?

I am aware of the special needs and, indeed, of the good work which has been done in Coventry and I will keep the situation closely under consideration.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the difficulties which affect education services at Longhorsley Church of England school, Northumberland; what steps are being taken to help the school authorities; and whether he will make a statement.

The Newcastle Diocesan Education Committee wishes to replace this school by means of a minor project. I shall consider this proposal sympathetically as soon as the necessary resources are available.

Is the Minister really aware of the conditions of this rural school? It has no playground, no facilities for games, lavatory accommodation is very inadequate, and many of the children have to travel a quarter of a mile to the school canteen. Surely, this merits urgent consideration. We are told that it is to be considered in the next review. Can we be told when the next review will take place?

I quite agree that this is a school which badly needs replacing and I hope that before too long it will be possible to increase the minor works allocation.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the shortage of nursery school places in the west Midlands; and what proposals he has to make by which this shortage can be overcome.

Yes, Sir. There is a demand for additional nursery school plains in many parts of the country but the shortage of women teachers for the primary schools makes it impossible to contemplate increased employment of qualified teachers in nursery schools and classes at the present time.

While welcoming the fact that the Minister at least recognises the seriousness of the position, may I ask whether he is not aware that his Answer, which is virtually that he expects to be able to do nothing at all owing to the shortage of teachers, will be received with great regret? Is he aware, for example, that in West Bromwich, with a primary school population of 10,000, there are only 70 nursery school places and that in Wolverhampton, with a primary school population of 15,000, there are only 55 places? Is the Minister aware that with smaller families and a large number of people living in new estates which are isolated, the need for nursery schools is even greater than in the past?

I share the regret, but I must put first things first.

Is the Minister aware that where a private school was started recently, no fewer than eight trained nursery school teachers volunteered to serve in it who were not prepared to teach in primary schools and that many women who will not take large classes in primary schools would teach in nursery schools?

I am not sure about that. I would have to look into it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great concern in most pants of the west Midlands about the question and also about the delay in implementing the school building programme? Will he undertake to look at the whole question and ascertain what can be done to improve the position?

The Question refers to nursery schools, which I cannot at present increase.

asked the Minister of Education which local education authorities provide a remedial education service.

Local education authorities provide special help in many ways for children with learning difficulties If the hon. Member will let me know of any particular aspect which interests him I will look into the matter.

asked the Minister of Education how many of the following 20 training colleges which each took fewer than five day students during 1961–62, namely, Shenstone, Gloucester Domestic Science, Hampstead Domestic Science, Bedford, Chelsea, Dart-ford, Nonington and Lady Mabel Physical Training Colleges, Neville's Cross, St. Hild's, Charlotte Mason, Barry, St. Mary's Bangor, Ripon, I. M. Marsh, Southlands, Anstey, Bath Academy, Ilkley, Thornbridge Hall, were inhibited from taking more day students through shortage of teaching staff, and through insufficient teaching accommodation, respectively.

The small number of day students at these colleges was due in the main either to geographical location or to the specialist character of the college, or, in some cases, to both.

Where it is possible to do so, will the right hon. Gentleman ask the colleges to request resident students who are within travelling distance to make way for day students, to enable them to take in more day students on that basis so that more places will be available to the several thousand students who have not yet got places?

We are discussing that and other suggestions with the colleges, and they are responding very well in crowding-up with additional day students.

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that about a fortnight ago he said he would consider calling attention to the success of the Trent Park, Southend, experiment. Has he taken any further steps about it?

I should require notice of that.

asked the Minister of Education what response he has had to his recent request for the establishment of more day training colleges for teachers; and what consideration is being given to the suggestion of sandwich courses made by certain representatives of education authorities.

A good number of authorities have indicated their willingness to help in establishing temporary day training colleges: some have premises already in mind; others are investigating the possibilities. The necessary decisions will be taken as quickly as possible.

The suggestion referred to in the second part of the hon. Lady's Question is being included by the National Advisory Council in its urgent consideration of various ways of increasing output from existing training facilities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange to publish as soon as possible the names of the authorities which are establishing day training colleges so that intending students and the general public may be aware of them?

Yes, Sir; I will, because I think that would encourage others.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that Croydon is very anxious indeed to establish a teacher training college?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Education if he will now consider making half-time teaching superannuable.

This proposal would require legislation and will be kept under review. At present it is doubtful if a majority of teachers would be in favour of it or whether it is an important factor in the decision of married women to return to teaching.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this is much the most cogent argument with almost any woman if she wants to return to at least half-time teaching and that it would be a far better incentive than anything else he has offered?

Naturally, I look carefully at the cogent arguments, but such evidence as I have shows that this is not a main factor.

asked the Minister of Education what action he will take, following representations made to him by the Eleven Plus Parents' Association, concerning the selection of children for grammar school places in Bournemouth; and if he will make a statement.

In the course of this year's selection process in Bournemouth there have been a number of changes of plan, in the course of which the second part of the tests was first cancelled and later restored for an intermediate group of pupils. It is for the authority to arrange the selection of pupils for secondary education and my right hon. Friend has no grounds for intervening in this case.

Is my hon. Friend aware that since last May the council has taken no fewer than three decisions affecting the method of selection this year? In view of this and of the apparent inability of the council to find a solution to the dilemma of its own creating, do not the strong protests of the parents, which have already been brought to my hon. Friend's attention, constitute sufficient ground for the intervention of my right hon. Friend?

My right hon. Friend will take account of what has happened this year in considering what advice he ought to give the authority for the conduct of its affairs in future.

But is the hon. Gentleman aware that this strong feeling is not confined to Bournemouth and that it is general throughout the country? Surely what is needed is a comprehensive re-organisation of secondary education, and the sooner it is done, the better?

That may or may not be so, but the Question relates to Bournemouth.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that the parents of the children were under the impression initially that they would go to a grammar school and that I am assured that there are ample grammar school places available for them and that the headmasters are prepared to take them should they be required to do so?

I am aware of those considerations, but the fact is that the authority has tried, by offering the pupils an opportunity to take the second part of the test, to put right the confusion resulting from its earlier decision.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Bournemouth authority awarded a number of places to children by its method of selection and then claimed that it had not grammar school places for them and is now asking them to sit an examination again? Does he not think this serious enough to warrant intervention by the Minister?

That aspect of the matter was covered by my first supplementary answer.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to give notice that either I or my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East and Christchurch (Mr. Cordle) will seek your leave to raise the Whole matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Education if he has yet decided to implement the idea of short service commissions for teacher trainees; and if he will make a statement.

I have asked for the views of the National Advisory Council on this suggestion.

Will my right hon. Friend be able to indicate before the Summer Recess what his decision will be on this subject? Will he also bear in mind the rumours which are now circulating that groups of teachers are planning to impose half-day attendances for younger children in the autumn if the staffing position does not improve?

I cannot give a decision until I have had the recommendations of the National Advisory Council and considered them. I know that in many primary schools there are staffing difficulties, because this is the year of intermission when we are not getting a full output from the colleges.

asked the Minister of Education if he is satisfied with the degree of co-ordination in the educational research fields at the present time; and if he will consider steps to improve the dissemination of the results obtained.

One of the functions of the new branch in my Department is to help with such co-ordination. I agree that there is need to make the results of research better known and I am encouraging the National Foundation for Educational Research to extend its present arrangements.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will make a statement on the recommendations of the National Advisory Council on the Training and Supply of Teachers about the immediate steps which might have to be taken to alleviate the shortage of teachers.

It is too early to make a statement and the Chairman of the Council is coming to discuss the Council's recommendations with me.

While I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty about making a statement at the moment, may I ask whether he will assure the House that if the Council says that there is a requirement for further places in the training colleges he will take steps immediately, before the next academic year, doing his utmost to ensure that the places are provided?

Obviously, this is one of a very large number of questions which I wish to discuss with the Chairman to see what we can best do.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will take powers to establish a central library containing publications from throughout the world upon subjects related to business and management education.

I agree with my hon. Friend that adequate provision of books on these subjects is very important. The libraries of the British Institute of Management and other bodies are already well stocked and I believe that it would be better to develop these facilities rather than to set up a new central library under my Department.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in spite of the progress made in this sphere of education over the last two years, this country is considerably behind Western Germany and the United States and, therefore, many of the publications in this branch of education have been published in those countries? Will he bring to the attention of those who have these libraries the need to secure those publications from Western Germany and the United States?

I certainly will encourage the extension of these libraries The colleges of advanced technology and other technical colleges also have libraries. There may well be a case for a translation service.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will sponsor a conference upon business and management education to take place within the United Kingdom and to which he will invite leading experts and tutors in business education from throughout the world.

My hon. Friend will be glad to hear that the British Institute of Management is planning a conference on these lines to take place early next year. I welcome this initiative.

While I welcome this news, may I ask my right hon. Friend to ensure that every endeavour is made to give maximum publicity to the findings and results of the conference?

Yes, Sir; I will.

asked the Minister of Education if he will now make a statement about the pensions of retired teachers, particularly the mast elderly, which have fallen in value owing to the increased cost of living since they were earned.

Teachers' pensions are increased under Pensions (Increase) Acts, which apply to many kinds of public servants, including teachers, and are the responsibility of my right hon. and learned Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who will shortly be making a statement.

Is it not a fact that the older the retired teacher is the greater is the discrepancy between the real value of his pension and its real value when it was given? Is not the Minister aware that teachers today regard it as a matter of conscience to see that some sort of justice is brought about for the older retired people, and could not the pensions be now joined, at least, to the Burnham Scale increases when they take place?

That opens a very large question, but the pensions of public servants must all be treated on the same level.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in common with, I am sure, all other Members of Parliament, some of the most pathetic letters I get are from these retired teachers, and that it weighs heavily on our individual and collective consciences that these people should be suffering, after scores of years of not very well paid service of a most disinterested nature? Will he bear that in mind when talking with his right hon. and learned Friend?

I have the fullest sympathy with what my hon. Friend has said, and I ask him to await the statement which my right hon. and learned Friend will very shortly make.

Would not the Minister agree that there are many very serious anomalies? Will he adopt the proposal made in a number of quarters—including the Private Member's Bill submitted by me—namely, that a periodic review should be undertaken and the results published so that we may see the very grave differences and anomalies arising out of the changes in the value of money?

That is a question for my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because it affects the public service as a whole.

Would not the Minister of Education agree that Members on all sides of the House are concerned not so much that this matter should be dealt with on the same level, but to get a new level, and especially to get justice for those in the older age groups and to remove them from the obligation of approaching their Members of Parliament in order to get sufficient National Assistance to enable them to live?

This is a very human problem, but I must say to the hon. Gentleman that it affects a very great number of people, and it is the responsibility of the Treasury.

asked the Minister of Education why students and staff of Coventry Teacher Training College have had permission refused for holding lunches of bread and cheese as a means of raising funds to assist the Freedom from Hunger campaign.

I am advised that the local education authority has no power to pass on to the campaign any sums saved in this way. But I welcome the students' gesture and hope that they will find another way of contributing.

Is not that a very unsatisfactory Answer? Is not the Minister aware that the Freedom from Hunger Campaign is an important campaign which is supposed to enjoy the blessing of the Government? Is it not a piece of bureaucratic nonsense to frustrate the generous impulse of teachers and students in this way? Will he give general advice that the training colleges should be encouraged to do this sort of thing?

The law is not a piece of bureaucratic nonsense.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to be content with such an answer, but to look at this matter again to see whether he cannot give encouragement to such activities as this?

I am entirely in favour of encouraging contributions to the campaign, which is obviously one of very great merit, but the law says that local education authorities have no power to pass on savings of this nature.

Cannot the law be changed? Is not that what we are here for, if necessary?

asked the Minister of Education what percentage of children in recent years in the Borough of Thornaby-on-Tees has been selected at the 11-plus and 13-plus selections for secondary schools in which it is possible to take the General Certificate of Education examination; and what are the comparable figures for the North Riding as a whole and for the neighbouring boroughs of Middlesbrough and Stockton.

In each of the last two years 10 per cent. of Thornaby children were selected for grammar schools at 11, and between 3 and 4 per cent. at 13. The corresponding figures for the North Riding as a whole, are 17 and between 2 and 3 per cent. For all these pupils, the same tests are used and the same standard of selection is adopted. Corresponding figures cannot be given for Middlesbrough or Stockton because in these areas, unlike the North Riding, G.C.E. courses are available in a number of unselective schools.

Can the Minister explain why the 11-plus selections in Thornabyon-Tees are not only so low but also require a correction of one-third, as compared with one-eighth for the North Riding as a whole? Does he not agree that the large number of late developers in Thornaby indicates poor provision of bath primary and secondary education?

I have asked about this, and I have no reason to think that primary school education is of a lower standard in Thornaby-on-Tees than in the North Riding generally.

Is the Minister aware of the large proportion of supply teachers employed and the poor quality of the school buildings? Will he consider an investigation into this, and will he undertake the replacement of the two obsolete secondary modern schools by a comprehensive school at the earliest date?

That is a very large request, but I will certainly look into it.

asked the Minister of Education what special investigations are at present being carried out by his medical officers.

Investigations at present in hand include studies over several years of groups of children suffering from defective hearing, blindness and partial sight, cerebral palsy and word blindness, as well as a long-term study of certain aspects of the growth of children.

When does my hon. Friend expect this information to be available to hon. Members?

I would expect an interim report on one or two of the subjects to be available later this year, probably in the report which my right hon. Friend will present to the House on the health of the school child. Some of the other reports will be delayed because of the long-term nature of the study.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he proposes to take to implement the recommendation in Paragraph 97 of the Roberts Report, in view of the shortage of qualified librarians.

This is one of the matters on which I expect to receive general advice from the working party which is examining the basic requirements for an efficient library service.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 40 per cent. of the posts in our public libraries at A.P.T. 1 and 2 levels are occupied by unqualified staff? Would he not agree that this is due mainly to the poor salaries paid and the poor prospects of those who work in our public libraries? Will he make a further effort to contact the appropriate joint negotiating body, and bring this matter to its notice?

I am aware of a considerable shortage of qualified librarians, but at present I have no responsibility in this matter. I feel sure that the employing authorities have taken note of the recommendations of the Roberts Report, and in many cases are acting upon them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they do not seem to be doing very much about this? Are these people to join the queue with the nurses and the probation officers and become the victims of the Government's "guiding light" policy?

There is no question of that. At present, it is a matter for the local authorities, and it may well be that this further publicity for the library service will be taken notice of.

As the library service is deteriorating almost under our eyes, will the Minister try to hasten the report of the working party?

I have no evidence that the library service is deteriorating. Within the last two months, I have visited a number of libraries and have found them in excellent shape.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will consult local education authorities about the practicability of introducing compulsory and supervised daily teeth cleaning by pupils in schools under their control.

No, Sir. Local education authorities are free to arrange supervised teeth cleaning where they consider conditions are favourable.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that this is becoming a very serious problem? Is he aware that in a fairly recent survey into the dental health of children under the age of 12, not 3 per cent. were found to have a perfect set of teeth? Is he further aware that if we continue at the present rate of decline, we shall shortly be producing a nation of toothless adolescents? Will my hon. Friend discuss this question with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to see whether something can be done to salve what is rapidly becoming a national problem?

A great deal of dental health education is done at the schools. My Answer related to the specific suggestion of my hon. Friend. We take very seriously the point he has made, and discussions have gone on and are continuing between my right hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Is it not a fact that the real trouble here with the school dental service is that we are so short of trained dentists because these people are paid so poorly? Is it not the old story about not getting the right people for the right jobs because they are not being paid the right salaries? When are the Government going to do something about that?

That is a gross oversimplification of the facts. There is a shortage of dentists throughout the country, both for the general dental service and for the school dental service.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health has in hand the matter of increasing the supply of dentists.

asked the Minister of Education if it is proposed that girls leaving school and recruited as auxiliary helpers in primary schools should cease employment on marriage.

I know of no such proposal.

In answer to a Question last week, the right hon. Gentleman said he hoped that recruitment—or one part of it, at any rate—would be amongst young girls who did not want to take up work in other fields but merely wanted a job until they got married. Is this the right attitude to take in recruiting young people for this kind of work? Will it not lead them to feel themselves to be in a blind alley job, suitable only for those who want to play around until marriage? Will the right hon. Gentleman try to correct the impression he gave last week?

I cannot believe that any such impression was created. Of course, if the girls who get married still want to go on working, we shall be very pleased, and no doubt there will, I hope, be a considerable number of older married women willing to be auxiliaries.

I am sure that what I have said was the impression created last week. Does not this show how urgent it is that the right hon. Gentleman should let everyone know what he intends these people to do? There is general uncertainty about it in the teaching profession and generally amongst those interested in education. Will he not do something to show clearly what is intended for these auxiliaries?

The National Advisory Council for the Training and Supply of Teachers is urgently considering the details of this scheme. We had better wait —not very long—for it to make its recommendations.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent the teaching of temperance is included in the syllabus of schools under his control.

This is a matter for the teachers to decide. Suggestions for their consideration are contained in the Ministry's pamphlet "Health Education".

This Question may be misconstrued. It deals not merely with the question of drink but with temperance in all other aspects of life. Is it not important that, when people are concerned about youth generally in all aspects, encouragement should be given by the Minister to teachers to include much more of this teaching? The kind of lesson—whether hygiene or any other —would not matter, but this teaching should be done so that in our schools we lay the foundations of temperance amongst young folk.

I think the fact that there is relatively so small a proportion of unsatisfactory behaviour among young people as a whole is evidence that teachers are aware of their responsibilities and do this job quite well.

asked the Minister of Education (1) if he will give the number of secondary schools in England and Wales and the number of such schools which do not contain swimming baths;

There are about 6,000 maintained secondary schools in England and Wales. The great majority of these schools do not have their own swimming baths, although the number of schools with their own baths, particularly pools for learners, is increasing. Swimming is mainly taught at public swimming baths.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give further consideration to this to make certain that secondary schools have baths of their own? Where that is impossible, will he consult the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Treasury to see that local authorities have financial help in building baths locally for schools? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is very important to teach swimming and life saving to children in order to prevent the great number of deaths among them by drowning, especially during the summer months?

I am very much in favour of more swimming for school children. I recently opened a swimming bath in order to have the opportunity of saying almost exactly what the hon. Gentleman has just said.

Although the right hon. Gentleman is interested in children having facilities for swimming lessons, may I ask him to do more and to make certain that more baths are built within secondary schools and, in places where this cannot be done, encourage public authorities to build them locally?

There are more baths under construction than at any previous time, I think.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not going to publish the number in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

This Question appeared on the Order Paper only yesterday and I have had no time to discover the numbers asked for.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) whether, in the case of houses lacking a bath, hot water or inside toilet, and whether the house is suitable for improvement, he will take powers to enable him, where the tenant is willing, to require the landlord to apply for and use an improvement grant;

(2) what compulsory purchase measures or other compulsory steps he proposes to ensure that baths, hot water systems and inside toilets are added to houses suitable for such improvements.

I believe that co-operation is preferable to compulsion and that a fresh effort on this basis can increase the number of improvements. I shall, within the next few weeks, be asking local authorities to make a new drive to secure the carrying out of improvement schemes for whole groups or areas of houses in agreement with the owners. Though I would hope that most owners would be willing to co-operate, some compulsory acquisition may be necessary to prevent the frustration of schemes by an unwilling minority.

While welcoming that reply to a certain extent, may I ask the Minister whether this will really do what the experts on the subject have asked for? By experts, I mean the local authority experts—the public health inspectors—who almost unanimously feel that the statutory standard of fitness should be raised to include these three things, and that compulsion on the landlord is necessary to get it. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 112 Labour Members and some hon. Members opposite now favour this course?

When I was in Leeds last week, where they have adopted, broadly speaking, the method I shall be advocating in the circular, I was very greatly impressed by the results of a concentrated drive on a particular area, including offers, if necessary, to lend money to the owner of the property. The whole scheme has produced very significant results there. As a next step I want to see it done elsewhere.

This is a very important question, but is the right hon. Gentleman taking further steps to see that when all these baths are provided there will be enough water to go into them? It may be that this will intensify a water crisis. Sooner or later will not the Government have to plan water supplies in this country?

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to extend his natural interest in that fluid, I suggest he puts down a Question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he has reached a decision with regard to the compulsory purchase order submitted to him by the Metropolitan borough of Bethnal Green covering certain properties in Corfield Street, Wilmot Street and Finnis Street, London, E.2.

As the hon. Member knows, this is a contentious order and the inquiry took two days. I have not yet reached a decision, but will issue it as soon as possible.

I regret the delay by the Minister. May I ask whether he is aware that, in addition to 30 families having received orders to quit, approximately 150 other families are refusing to pay the increased rents which they originally agreed to pay under duress because of the appalliing housing conditions which exist and shortages in East London?

As the hon. Member will appreciate, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the details. There has been no unreasonable delay. I have had the report for a fortnight and a decision will be issued in a very few days.

Is the Minister aware that the landlords have stated that they feel obliged to push up the rents because, if they do not, they may be the subject of a take-over bid? Does not this indicate the growing unsuitability of private landlordism for providing or looking after accommodation of this kind?

I ought not and I will not make comments or reply to questions which would seem to have a bearing on this case, which has yet to be decided.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what was the average tender price per square foot for local authority houses where tenders were approved by him in the first three months of 1962.

The average price per square foot of three-bedroom houses in tenders approved during the first quarter of this year was 42s. 1½d.

Is not this very much worse than in 1961? Were not the facts then that the normal average council house was costing £175 more? What on earth is the Minister proposing to do about this?

The figure for 1961 was 39s. 9½d. One reason for the increase, as we have explained several times in this House, is slowness of completion during the period of 1961. As a result of Government action, this position is improving and the provisional figures for April and May of this year show a slight reduction.

Will the hon. Gentleman say exactly what he is doing, because completion is not the only answer?

It is not the only answer. As a result of urging on local authorities the need for more realistic programmes and putting in the pipeline what they can reasonably expect to complete, we have some evidence that prices are tending to fall and the rate of completion is rising.

If it is the Government's policy to speed up the rate of completion by causing fewer buildings to be started, that will not help to solve the housing problem, will it?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is quite accurate in the way in which he has put the matter. What has happened is that the average period of the construction of a local authority house in the last quarter of last year was 15·4 months and in the first quarter of this year it had been reduced to 14·7 months. This will be reflected in better results in completions and prices.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he proposes to give a decision concerning the Askew Road and St. Cuthbert's Road (No. 1) compulsory purchase order.

My right hon. Friend expects to do so before the end of the month. He will send the hon. Member a copy of the decision letter.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he inform his right hon. Friend that unless the order is confirmed by 31st July, which is the date of his visit to Gateshead, while I am sure that the Minister will get a warm reception at Gateshead, if the order is not confirmed his reception may not necessarily be a cordial one?

I think that the order will be confirmed. I am sure that the hon. Member will appreciate the difficulty of dealing with an order of this kind which affected 500 properties and aroused 27 objections. We have dealt with it as speedily as possible.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what information he has received from county councils in reply to his Circular No. 6/62 of 8th February, 1962, concerning gypsies; and whether he will publish this information.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what has been the response of local authorities in England and Wales to Circular No. 6/62 in respect to gypsies and other travellers; and if he will state the prospects of providing sites for next winter so that those who are now employed on farms and other seasonal work will in due course find sanctuary within the law.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will make a statement on the response of the county councils to his Circular No. 6/62 of 8th February, 1962, on the gypsy problem.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what progress has been made in ascertaining the extent of the gypsy problem to be dealt with in England and Wales as the result of his Circular No. 6/62 dated 8th February; what estimate he has made of the problems which will arise next winter; and what action he will take to deal with the situation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what developments have taken place arising out of his circular to local authorities asking them to provide proper sites and reasonable conditions for the gypsy fraternity; and which authorities have now requested advice or assistance from his department.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will make a statement on the response to his Circular No. 6/62.of 8th February, 1962, on the gypsy problem.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what cooperation is being received from county councils, following the issue of Circular 6/62 on the gypsy problem.

Of the 62 county councils in England and Wales, 18 have stated that they have no gypsy problem, 12 are considering the provision of special sites, 10 have made or are making surveys, the results of which are not yet available, and 22 have not yet replied.

The replies so far received suggest that the need for special sites is more local than general, and that it arises mainly in the Home Counties. My right hon. Friend has no reason to think that it is beyond the capacity of the county councils and local authorities concerned to ensure that proper sites are available where required.

Though the practical results of the circular are bound to be slow in coming, it has helped to create a greater awareness of this very difficult problem and has resulted in some positive steps. When all the replies to the circular are received, my right hon. Friend will consider whether any further action is called for.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is desirable that any action that can be taken should be taken before winter? Will he bear that in mind during the coming months?

I am sure that is right, but I am equally sure that local authorities will do their best to ensure that the necessary sites are ready. That is certainly their duty.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it has come to my notice that in many areas no surveys have been taken, while many of these families have gone to the farms in the usual way and will not be included in surveys because they have accommodation at present? Is the Minister satisfied that enough has been done to ensure that next winter these human beings will not once again be treated as human shuttlecocks, which is a terrible disgrace for this country in 1962?

I will certainly undertake to look into any case the hon. Gentleman refers me to. I know the interest he has taken in this matter throughout. We are not satisfied with the progress that has been made, but we feel that the local authorities are in a position to deal with the matter if they so choose.

Will the Minister urge the 22 authorities which have not yet replied to his circular to give greater attention to this problem and to bear in mind the human side of it and the fact that these people will be out in the weather during the winter?

We sent a reminder on 26th June to those which had not replied. If that does not produce results, we shall certainly press them harder.

Has the hon. Gentleman seen the deplorable state of affairs on the A.2, the main Dover-London Road, 20 miles from central London, where small children are living on the side of the road, and have been for many months, in hovels and under conditions which would be deplorable in any under-developed part of the world? What are the Government proposing to do about it?

Yes, Sir, I have seen it and it is deplorable. I have discussed the matter with representatives of the Kent County Council which is meeting the district councils next week, and I hope that some action will follow.

asked the Prime Minister if he will request the Secretaries of State for War and Commonwealth Relations, and the Ministers of Transport, Education and Health, to prepare a scheme for continuing the Government contract far the troopships "Oxford-shire" and "Nevasa" until 1971 in order to avoid the payment of several million pounds as compensation for cancelling the contract, and to enable the vessels to be used for purposes such as taking pneumoconiotic and silicotic coal miners to southern waters as part of treatment under the National Health Service, taking potential young athletes to the Tokyo Olympic Games or taking 17–18-year-olds to Commonwealth countries as part of their education; and if he will make an estimate of the cost of such Government-sponsored schemes compared with the cost of paying the compensation.

Discussions about compensation for breaking the charter of these ships are not yet concluded, but any schemes of the kind suggested by the hon. Member are likely to cost so much more than the probable compensation as to make them unacceptable as a charge on public funds.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that by brushing aside such schemes he is throwing away £9 million from the public purse fruitlessly?

I think that we had better go on and see how the negotiations continue.

Will the right hon. Gentleman advise his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to look into this matter? Is he aware that if ship-owners were asked to undertake the management of these vessels the company which is not making a profit, and therefore not receiving the investment allowance of 40 per cent., would make a profit from the management of the vessels and get the 40 per cent, and so he would be helping the shipping industry as well as making a very valuable contribution?

I shall bear all that in mind.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman recognise the importance of the school-ship in promoting or helping to promote world peace, particularly by bringing into contact with one another children and young people of all ages and climes during the formative period of their lives? Does not he realise that by following such a policy he might save far more money than he is spending today in wasteful ways?

All these considerations will be borne in mind.

asked the Prime Minister whether, when considering the formation of a committee or advising on the appointment of a Royal Commission, he will arrange for the Minister concerned to publish two weeks beforehand the names of those persons to whom invitations are to be sent.

No, Sir. I do not think it would be right to make this departure from established practice.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great concern ex-pressed by many people about the composition of the Pilkington Commission? Is he aware that many people felt that there was no one on the Commission to speak for the ordinary television viewer? Would not it be a good idea at least to get as representative a committee as possible to discuss these matters to try to see that all views are represented?

That, of course, might be a criticism of those—in this case myself—whose duty it is to make recommendations to the Queen regarding appointments to Royal Commissions. I do not think that it would be right to invite particular persons to have, as it were, their names put up for criticism. I am only too grateful to those who are willing to serve.

Would the right hon. Gentleman think it wise to confirm that there was no criticism at the time of the appointment of the Pilkington Commission and that the criticism has been made only since its Report?

As a matter of fact there was some criticism. There was considerable criticism from the party of the right hon. Gentleman, because they thought I ought not to have appointed an industrial magnate.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is all too easy to criticise, after the event of the Report, those who have prepared the Report if one happens to disagree with the recommendations which are made? Will he accept my assurance that there are some hon. Members on this side of the House who think that the Report was a very good job.

I am not going to discuss the Report. The Question was related to how Royal Commissions are appointed. The responsibility must rest on the Prime Minister of the day to advise. I should like to take the opportunity to thank the many people who serve on a great number of these Commissions and give their time, and often find it a very great sacrifice.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the expression of gratitude to the Pilkington Commission in the White Paper is notably perfunctory? In view of the violent personal attacks which have been made in various newspapers, might not an expression of sympathy as well as gratitude be extended to the members of the Commission?

I suppose everybody who serves on any public body deserves sympathy as well as gratitude.

asked the Prime Minister if a vote will be taken on the Common Market at the Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers; and whether this will be recorded.

The procedure at meetings of Commonwealth Prime Ministers is decided by the Prime Ministers collectively. As I said on 10th April in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), it has always been our rule at these meetings to exchange views, to hold discussions, but not to reach decisions binding on the Governments of the Commonwealth.

While I recognise the propriety of that statement, may I ask whether, as we are eventually to vote on entry into the Common Market, we shall be told of the gist of the opinions or just that there have been useful conversations?

I have noticed in practice that there has been no undue lack of publicity about the views expressed.

Will the Prime Minister make plain before the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference what it is exactly that is being discussed there? Can he give us an assurance that, if the Lord Privy Seal is unable to present to the House of Commons before the Recess the provisional outline agreement he has in mind, any such agreement will be published and made available to the public as soon as it is made, and if necessary before the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference?

I should like to consider the precise situation which we reach at the end of the month, but I can certainly give the House an assurance. Hon. Members know that Her Majesty's Government are bound by the Resolution passed by both Houses on 3rd August and we would not hesitate to recall the House for any reason if it was necessary to do so during the Summer Recess.

Will the Prime Minister clear this up a little further? Is he aware that last Friday morning there were reports in most newspapers that in the view of the Government it was doubtful whether full agreement would be reached by the end of July and that Parliament would have to be recalled? Can he say what the position is and when a fuller statement is likely to be made to the House?

I do not know quite what might be the position at the end of this particular stage of the negotiations at the end of July. I do not think "full agreement" is likely to be reached in that sense, but there will be a review of the stage of the negotiations and discussion with the Prime Ministers. Then we shall have to decide what is the best course to follow.

I am sorry to press this, but what I am concerned about is when a statement is to be made either to the House or to the country. Is it anticipated that the Lord Privy Seal will be making such a statement before the Recess? If not, when is it to be made and can we be assured that the public in general will be aware of the problems at issue before the Prime Ministers' Conference meets?

I cannot be quite sure because it depends on the progress of the negotiations.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that the outcome at the Prime Ministers' Conference is likely to be dependent on the position of temperate foodstuffs? Is he aware that a temporary solution up to 1970 with a doubtful political let-out after that date are terms which, in my opinion, would not be acceptable to the vast majority in the country, let alone the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference?

These are all matters for negotiation. What I am trying to deal with is that we are going to try to be in a position to present to the Prime Ministers' Conference the state of the negotiations as they may be at that time.

When the Prime Minister says that he would not in certain circumstances hesitate to recall the House, can he say specifically whether if the heads of agreement are not known by the time the House rises but are known during August or September he will definitely recall the House?

If that should occur the next thing would be the Prime Ministers' Conference. After that it might be necessary to recall the House.

Would the Prime Minister not take this point, that if the House were sitting it is clear that we would have the normal report from the Lord Privy Seal after a visit to Brussels which we always get? Since we may get a delay of a week or fortnight or possibly longer and then have the accident that the House is not sitting, would not the Prime Minister agree in those circumstances that the country, if not the House, is entitled to have the same degree of information on these vital negotiations that we would have got if the House had been sitting? Would he agree to do that? Furthermore, will he recognise—because this is our experience—that whenever there have been talks in Brussels, there have been substantial leakages to the Continental Press, not only the British Press, about what is going on. It is vital to have an authoritative statement from our Government representative in the Brussels talks. If he cannot recall the House before the Prime Ministers' Conference, will he arrange that we should get a statement at least as full as the Lord Privy Seal would have given to the House if the House had been sitting?

I think the House has been broadly satisfied with the progress reports—if that is the right expression—which the Lord Privy Seal has been giving. I hope that will be possible before the House rises, but that is a different thing from the whole agreement itself; it is a progress report about how we stand.

asked the Prime Minister What is the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the formation of an Atlantic Community embodying Western Europe, including the United Kingdom, and the United States of America.

The United Kingdom is already closely joined with many of the countries of Western Europe and the United States in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development. With regard to the rather wider aspects of the Question, my right hon. Friends and I have explained the Government's policy in many speeches over the years. I do not think I could adequately summarise these speeches in answer to a Question, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman may remember that, for example, on 6th December, 1960, I said in the House that I had always made it clear that:

"… I believe that Europe, the United Kingdom, the Commonwealth and United States should in monetary matters, economic matters and defence matters and all their general policy work towards an ever-closer union"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December, 1960; Vol. 631, c. 1066.]

Has the Prime Minister considered the recent speech of President Kennedy? Would he not agree that it has a most important international political significance? Can we be assured that Her Majesty's Government will fully co-operate with all concerned in making that concept into a reality?

Yes, Sir. I should have thought that it was a commendable speech, and it was very welcome especially to those of us who have been trying to float this word "interdependence" for quite a time.

Is the Prime Minister aware that in the course of that speech President Kennedy said that the United States would be prepared to discuss with a united Europe the ways and means of forming a concrete Atlantic partnership? Since this concept ought to be clarified before negotiations for our entry into the Common Market are completed, would it not be a good idea to seek from President Kennedy what he has in mind when he speaks of a concrete Atlantic partnership?

I will consider that too, but we have to get on with one thing at a time.

Is not the idea put forward by the President much more likely to come to fruition after the negotiations have been successfully completed?

Answer.

asked the Prime Minister what information he has received from the United States Government on recent research in the detection of atomic testing.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has yet received the official report on the detection of the nuclear tests recently carried out by the United States Government; and whether he will publish this Report as a Command Paper.

The right hon. Gentlemen are no doubt referring to the interesting statement released by the American Department of Defence on 7th July. As the statement made clear, the new data which have emerged from Project Vela must be reviewed and fully evaluated. We all hope that these developments, which on the face of it are encouraging, will make it possible for us to achieve some advance in this complicated and highly technical field. I am confident that the experimental data will be made available to us through our normal exchanges of information with the United States authorities. As the House knows, there are regular informal meetings between British and American scientists. It so happens that one of these meetings is taking place this week and these matters will no doubt be included in the topics for discussion.

The Press statement issued by the Defence Department is widely available and I do not think that there is any need for it to be published as a Command Paper. I will certainly consider, when we have made the evaluation of this new information, whether a Command Paper would be useful, but of course these are American experiments and the publication of the findings is primarily a matter for them.

Would not the Prime Minister agree that as these researches seem to indicate the possibility of detection of atomic explosions without reference to inspection on the spot, it is very desirable that the Government should come to a speedy conclusion on this matter in order to avoid further testing, and the United States authorities should be advised accordingly?

I do not know that it necessarily deals with the question of verification, but if these experiments have gone further on the lines which we had some hope of, they certainly make a very important addition to the whole problem and a great advance.

As it seems clear from what the United States Government have published that underground nuclear explosions can be detected with much greater certainty and at much greater distances than was previously believed, will the Prime Minister allow the House to have the actual text of the statement which the United States released?

That has been fully published, but I would certainly consider a Command Paper if I thought it would be useful.

Will the Prime Minister agree to place the text in the Library, because it is better to have official texts than to rely on newspaper reports? Secondly, will he make a statement in the House following what he calls a routine meeting—but what on this occasion is more important than that—of the scientists of the two countries? Is he aware that this is vitally important to the resumed Geneva negotiations, and the whole House will want to know the outcome of these new American discoveries, if that is what they are.

Of course it is of great importance. I shall see whether the text can be got. I have only the newspaper reports of the text, but I will put it in the Library. With regard to progress, I should make a statement if I thought it necessary, or answer a Question.

Will the Prime Minister say whether Professor Don Leet has been invited to take part in these current discussions?

I am afraid that I do not know. That would be the American side.

Does not the Prime Minister agree that, whatever the risk of Russia or America carrying out small underground tests without detection, the alternative risk, which is that both sides will continue to hold series of large atmospheric tests, is far greater; and if the "Big Two" cannot get out of their clinch, could not Britain accept the neutrals' proposal that we should stop tests now, with existing means of detection?

I think that we are much more likely to make progress to the end we want if we and our American partners try to concert a joint policy.