asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is aware that seven Oldham children have been drowned in recent years in neglected standing waters adjacent to abandoned mills; and what steps he proposes to take to enable the focal corporation to deal with these dangers.

I know that there have been fatal accidents in these places. The Oldham Corporation obtained powers in 1960 to require the fencing of dangerous mill lodges, and there are powers in the Highways Act, 1959, under which local authorities can require the fencing of dangerous places adjoining streets. These powers should be sufficient to enable the Oldham Corporation to deal with the situation.

While congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on this first appearance at Question Time in his new capacity, may I say that, although Oldham has limited and thoroughly inadequate powers under its local Act, the adjoining urban district of Chadderton possesses none at all? This is a grave problem which has resulted in loss of life, but as the right hon. Gentleman, with his customary courtesy, has offered to discuss the matter with me, I will avail myself of that privilege.

I am grateful to the hon. Member. All local authorities share some of these powers under the Highways Act, 1959.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will make a statement giving details of the results obtained since has Department's circular was issued on the need for the planting of more trees in industrial areas; what further action it is now proposed to take to clean and brighten industrial areas, towns and cities and to increase the planting of turf, shrubs, plants and trees; and if he will issue a circular calling for a three-years' intensive drive towards this objective to be carried out by all towns and cities.

There are increasing examples of tree-planting in towns. Much as my right hon. Friend agrees with the hon. Member's objectives he does not think further stimulus is needed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will arrange for an intensive drive towards the full implementation of the Clean Air Act to be made before next winter within the industrial areas which suffer most from air pollution; and if he will require special attention to be given to Stoke-on-Trent, Salford, Trafford Park, Manchester, Bolton and Warrington.

My right hon. Friend will continue to urge all black area authorities in England and Wales, including those named by the hon. Member, to make vigorous use of their powers under the Act.

Is the hon. Member aware that we were hoping that, with the coming of new Ministers, there would be more initiative in his Department? Is he further aware that we have not had much encouragement for that view from the replies to the last two Questions? Has not the time arrived when industrial areas of this kind should be subjected to the drive by the Ministry which is essential if we are to keep up with the rest of Europe in this respect?

While I appreciate the hon. Member's views, I do not think that there is evidence that local authorities as a whole are backward in enforcing the general provisions of the Act. We should like to see faster progress in the establishment of smoke control, but it would not be justified to pick out the particular areas the hon. Member has mentioned, since there are many other areas in similar conditions.

Is it not the case that many of the local authorities in these areas do an awful lot to try to clean up the atmosphere but that there is great reluctance by some industries to install new machinery which would make it possible completely to eliminate the smoke nuisance? I am not referring to the pottery industry, which has done a lot, but mostly to such concerns as iron foundries. In my constituency we have a dreadful case. Excuse after excuse is made and it is time that the Minister gave instructions.

If the hon. Lady would like to write to me, I will look into any particular case, but it may well be that she is speaking of industries controlled under the Alkali Act. That is a different question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how much local authority borrowing is currently on short term; and what is the average rate of interest being paid on these loans.

For local authorities in the United Kingdom the amount of temporary borrowing outstanding at 31st December, 1961, was £1,080 million and the average rate of interest upon it in May, 1962, was 4½ per cent.

Is it not a fact that too much money is being borrowed at short term? Is not the rate of interest too high, and is not a great deal of it "hot" money from abroad? What is the hon. Gentleman going to do about what should be a stable element in the English economy?

I have no information about whether it is hot money from abroad, as the hon. Gentleman described it. I agree that excessive reliance on short-term money may have its dangers, but I think that it is a matter of opinion where the limit lies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has recently asked for a full appraisal of all aspects of local authority capital finance, and no doubt this is a matter which will be considered.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Radcliffe Committee specifically criticised the proportion of local authority investment at short term and that his right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) has also criticised it? Is the hon. Gentleman in consultation with the Treasury about the proportion of local authority investment which should be at short term?

As I indicated, this matter is being considered by the Treasury and I think that it would be unwise to commit myself any further at this stage.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will make an order under Section 2 (3) of the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act, 1960, adding to the list of bodies in the Schedule to that Act the committees for new towns described in paragraph 2 of the First Schedule to the New Towns Act, 1959

No, Sir. The character and functions of the local committees set up by the Commission for the New Towns are quite different from those of the other bodies listed in the Act of 1960.

Would not the Minister accept that the functions of the bodies already listed differ a great deal from one another, so that really that is not an answer at all? As the decisions taken by these committees are of great interest to townspeople, will he reconsider his reply?

I think not, because although they are naturally of great interest to townspeople, the Commission will devise its own methods of publicity. These are really only management committees dealing with what are essentially, in most cases, likely to be personal matters where attendance at meetings is not in the interests of the people concerned.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he will be able to announce his decision regarding the proposed development at Trosley Towers. Kent.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is yet in a position to give his decision with regard to proposed developments at Trosley Towers.

Soon, I hope.

So do I. It is now nine months since the inquiry. Why has it taken so long to get a decision on this grave matter?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that this raises substantial issues and that we have to make sure that we get the decision right.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter has been outstanding for a very long time, and that the preservation of the skyline of the North Downs is a matter which should be decided very quickly?

Yes, Sir, but as the right hon. Gentleman knows there are seldom situations which drag on for so many years which are absolutely simple, and we have had to study the considerations here very carefully.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the present situation in Kent, what approach has been made by the county council for assistance in finding sites for gypsies and other travellers in accordance with the offer in his Departmental Circular No. 6/62; what discussions have taken place between the officials of his Department and of the county council; and what progress has been made to deal with the problems involved.

Several discussions between representatives of the Department and of the county council on how best to meet the needs disclosed by the council's survey in February show that it is bound to take time to find and provide suitable sites. But the county council is meeting the district councils this week and my right hon. Friend very much hopes that there will be some results from this.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that in one incident in January 300 people were deposited by the local authority on the side of one of Britain's main trunk roads? So far only pious hopes have been expressed about it. Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that I am deeply grateful to his right hon. Friend's predecessor for the wonderful spadework he has done in this respect? I ask the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend not to waste time and allow that work to be frittered away before the winter.

I assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend is determined to show the same enthusiasm as was shown by his predecessor. I assume that the hon. Gentleman was referring to the A.2. As he knows, a planning appeal is pending, and we shall deal with that as quickly as we possibly can.

In view of the paucity of information about gypsies, will the hon. Gentleman discuss with his right hon. Friend the possibility of publishing a White Paper when these surveys have been completed, giving a summary of the findings so that the House and the country may be in a better position to judge what should be done for them?

I will certainly consider that suggestion, or any other means of making the information public.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the nature of the replies from the Buckingham County Council and the Essex County Council to his Circular No. 6/62 of 8th February, 1962, on the gypsy problem.

The Buckingham County Council has stated that it is making a survey of the problem and will inform my right hon. Friend of the result. We have not yet heard from the Essex County Council.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that both counties have shocking records in this respect, and that the Essex County Council recently got rid of 100 of these people, with their caravans and animals, from county council ground, by dumping them on the side of the main London-Southend road? Will he bear in mind that because of persecution in Essex, through its failure to face the problem, many of these people have been driven over to Kent? That is not a solution.

I certainly undertake to look into that problem and communicate with the hon. Member.

In view of the urgency of this problem, can the Parliamentary Secretary say when he expects the results of these surveys to reach him, and when he will be able to give the House some indication of the action which the Government will take in this matter?

I expect that this will be almost immediately after the House resumes after the Summer Recess.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will make a statement on his policy in regard to Circular No. 6/62 of 8th February, 1962, on gypsies and other travellers.

My right hon. Friend is glad to have this opportunity to endorse the policy set out in Circular No. 6/62, and hopes that action on the lines suggested in the circular will be taken by the local authorities concerned wherever the need arises.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the circular issued by the previous Minister was a very human and constructive document, and that hon. Members on this side of the House who are concerned about human rights hope that this policy will be pressed forward so that the plight of the Romanies and other travellers will be alleviated at least by the winter?

I think that I made clear in Answers to earlier Questions that it is the desire of my right hon. Friend to pursue, the policy of his predecessor with equal vigour. I can assure the hon. Member that there is no monopoly of humanity on the other side of the House.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will make a statement concerning the lack of sewerage plant in the Hornchurch area.

Sewage disposal arrangements in Hornchurch are admittedly far from adequate. Conditions are particularly bad at the Bretons Farm Works, which is due to be closed when Dagenham's Riverside Works have been reconstructed. Plans are being prepared for the reconstruction of the Riverside Works and my right hon. Friend hopes the local authority will press ahead urgently.

While thanking my horn. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that medical opinion in the area about the state of the sewerage plant is that it causes offensive odours, ill-health, nausea and vomiting, and will he kindly bear in mind that this is a matter of great urgency indeed?

I assure my hon. Friend that we regard this as a matter of urgency. I think that he is aware of some of the causes which have led to delay, and I am sure he will realise that these are not entirely the fault of my Department.

In view of the courtesy and consideration shown in that reply, I give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what proposals have been submitted to him by the local government commissions; what action he proposes to take on them; and when.

The Local Government Commission for England submitted final reports and proposals on the West Midlands Special Review Area and the West Midlands General Review Area in May, 1961, and on the East Midlands General Review Area in July, 1961.

Under the Local Government Act, 1958, I am required to publish the reports and consider any objections before deciding what action to take. Inquiries have been held into the objections to a number of major proposals and I am now studying the Inspectors' reports. I shall announce my decisions as soon as I can.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when that is likely to be, in view of the uncertainty that is bound to be caused by having these proposals floating around undecided?

I recognise that but I think that I must reserve my position. The decisions must be carefully considered, and I can only repeat that they will be made each in their own turn as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects to confirm loan sanction consent for the purchase and erection of a home for old people in Paignton, under Section 119 of the Housing Act, 1957.

Formal application for loan sanction in respect of this scheme was received only on 11th July, This will be considered promptly as soon as detailed plans are supplied.

Does my hon. Friend realise that that reply is rather misleading? Does he further realise that this scheme, which was initiated entirely by voluntary effort, was initiated as long ago as January, 1961, and that approval in principle from his Ministry was forthcoming over a year ago? Does he realise that people in my constituency, who are doing this entirely voluntarily, are becoming tired of playing the game of snakes and ladders? Will my hon. Friend make sure that in future there are rather more ladders and fewer snakes?

I accept my hon. Friend's request, but I hope that he will consider the element of delay that has been caused, no doubt purely through misunderstanding, at the other end of the ladder.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what communication he has received from local authorities about the financing of British Railways' losses out of rates; and what replies he has sent.

None, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that Dr. Beeching and the Minister of Transport have suggested that the burden of paying for the deficit on local railway services should be placed on local authorities? When local authorities protest strongly against the proposal, as they are bound to do, could not he suggest to them that they might meet this purpose and pay off the deficit by organising flag days?

I do not altogether agree with the right hon. Gentleman As far as my records show, on 4th July my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport told the House that he has no proposals for subsidising railway services from rates.

But is not the Minister aware that in a previous speech the Minister of Transport suggested that this was one of the sources from which deficits arising on local train services might be met?

indicated dissent.

Is the Minister aware that the ratepayers of the new town of Basildon have been asked to bear the expense of a new station?

That is a different Question from the one that I am answering, but if the hon. Member puts it down it will be considered.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will state the percentage of the rural population whose homes are not connected with mains sewerage facilities.

My right hon. Friend regrets that this information is not available.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that far too many properties in rural areas are without this important amenity? Is he aware that I was recently in his own constituency and that I know that the same problem exists there? Why should people in rural areas be expected to live in such primitive conditions in 1962? I appreciate that there has been a change of Minister and may I ask whether, in consultation with his right hon. Friend, the hon. Gentleman will give this matter further and urgent consideration?

I will certainly give it consideration, but I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that figures of this sort can be very misleading. As I am sure he will know, in many of the remoter rural areas the figures do not show whether other types of drainage are adequate or inadequate. In many cases they are adequate.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that rural district councils have been most forward-looking in the last ten years, and that, with Government support, a large number of schemes for sewerage and sewage disposal have been successfully carried out?

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for asking that question. Over the last five years nearly £70 million has been spent on rural sewerage and sewage disposal work, over £12 million being Government grants.

Why has the hon. Gentleman not been able to obtain the figures for which my hon. Friend asked? Is not it possible to get them from water authorities and undertakings? Is it not the case that in many areas in Wales and in the north of England the percentages are very high? Will his hon. Friend institute a drive to see that these people get this important amenity?

Of course we could obtain these figures by circularising all the rural authorities and asking for them. But, as I attempted to indicate to the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton), it is doubtful whether the figures would reveal anything. I am sure that the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) knows many parts of his own constituency where it would be wholly out of place to try to provide these facilities.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will state the percentage of the rural population whose homes are not connected with mains water supplies, and the number of farms which are not connected with mains water supplies.

It is estimated that about 10 per cent. of the rural population of England and Wales are without a mains water supply. Corresponding information about farms is not at present available.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that a figure of 10 per cent. is far too high? I agree that some local authorities have done pretty well, but is it not the case that others run up against difficulty because of the high interest rate which they have to pay on loans? Would not the hon. Gentleman, in consultation with his right hon. Friend, consider making loans at a low interest rate to local authorities who are prepared to get on with the job?

There are, I think, powers under which help could be given, but I should like further notice of that question. May I again point out that there are certain areas where a non-mains water supply is perfectly adequate, especially on farms. There is a survey on farms being conducted by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the result will be available.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what reports he has received from local authorities regarding the operation of Part II of the Housing Act, 1961, concerning houses in multiple occupation.

None, Sir. It is too soon to expect useful reports on the working of provisions which have been in operation only a few months.

While adding my congratulations to my right hon. Friend on his appointment, may I ask whether he is aware that certain local authorities are experiencing great difficulties in obtaining information regarding these houses in multi-occupation because of the non-co-operation of the occupants, and that other local authorities are reluctant to implement this part of the Act because it means that they have to rehouse those who are displaced to the detriment of those on the waiting list for houses? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that this grave problem, which has been aggravated by the great influx of immigrants in recent months, is dealt with with the greatest urgency?

My hon. Friend is really raising two questions. The first is about reporting to my Department. It is open to any local authority to write to me on any of its experiences under this part of the Act without waiting for the request I shall make generally in two years' time. As regards the second, while recognising the difficulties of some local authorities, I would point out that the purpose of the Act is to enable them to stop matters getting worse even in those cases where they cannot make them get better.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs on what date he intends to send officials from his department to confer with the officials of the Liverpool Housing Department regarding the speeding up of house building to meet the needs of Liverpool.

Discussions between officials have already taken place and others will follow to the extent necessary from time to time.

As this Question was tabled to the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make it his business to pay a visit immediately to Liverpool to acquaint himself with the grave difficulties there and thus put himself in a position to give instruction about the work that ought to be done?

I should like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to my predecessor both for what he has done and for what he has set in hand. He has left me a considerable tour of other slum areas to carry out, and I must carry on with that. My Permanent Secretary was in Liverpool yesterday, and I am aware of what is going on in that city.

The right hon. Gentleman had better be careful. His predecessor went to Merseyside and undertook to do something about the slums, and lost his job. If the right hon. Gentleman proposes to make tours, is not he in imminent danger of suffering the same fate?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will make a statement on his recent visit to Oldham and other Lancashire towns with major housing problems; and what steps he has in view to implement his expressed desire for a more determined attack on the problem of slum clearance and of overcrowding.

Oldham has a very large and urgent slum clearance problem. The council intends to increase substantially its rate of house building for this purpose provided the additional labour required can be obtained. During my predecessor's recent visit he suggested possible ways of attracting outside firms to the area, and these are to be pursued further in conjunction with my Department. I will also offer technical assistance to speed up the preparation of housing lay-outs and designs.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he bear in mind that this problem remains very much the same as it was 11 years ago, and that the immense burdens that the Corporation has to face under the present method of finance and under the Government's interest charges make it an almost superhuman problem to take sufficiently quickly the urgently required steps? Will he also take into account the question of additional finance for hard-pressed borough and urban councils which have been left with a burden from the years that have gone?

I accept the urgent need, but we face a situation in which the whole building force of England and Wales is working at full stretch on all sorts of activities, and Oldham faces the need to attract further building labour or, by good management, to get more output from its existing labour. I fully accept the challenge that faces the Government.

Does the Minister think that it will be possible to deal with the slum problem generally unless he reverses the tendency of the last seven years and once more raises the output of council houses? Will he do that?

I hope we shall find that, as has already happened this year, the trend of council house building is increasing.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will give the number of local authorities who have submitted plains for slum clearance for the years 1962, 1963 and 1964, the number of houses for which they have applied for replacement, and the number of such houses for which he has given sanction.

The form in which local authorities normally submit their slum clearance proposals and house building programmes does not enable me to give the hon. Member the information asked for.

Is it not the policy of the Ministry to restrict local authorities in the number of houses they want to build to replace slums? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a local authority in my division made an application in respect of slum clearance, but the Ministry turned the application down? Because of the persistence of the local authority we hope that the Ministry will now change its mind. Will the hon. Gentleman on all occasions take note of what local authorities want to do to clear slum houses?

Yes, indeed, and if the hon. Gentleman will give me further details of that case I will certainly look into it.

What is the hon. Gentleman's attitude towards the recent Report by the Civic Trust, which recommends that slum clearance be raised from the present 60,000 houses a year to 180,000 houses a year?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, at the moment the allocation of the purposes for which houses are built is left very largely with local authorities. I take the view that that is the right place for the responsibility to reside.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what special action, if necessary by legislation, he will now take to deal with the further increase in the number of homeless persons in London.

Before deciding what action may be necessary, I shall study the report of the London County Council's committee of inquiry and hear the views of the council. I have already agreed to meet representatives of the council for this purpose.

As the previous Minister failed to tackle the scandal of the growing number of homeless in the London area, will the new Minister give an assurance that he will not merely follow the ineffective policies of his predecessor but will take drastic action to deal with a shameful state of affairs?

I do not accept the charges of the hon. Member that my right hon. Friend was ineffective. The House must realise that there are in London fewer residents and more houses, but because of the high number of households as opposed to people, there is still great competition for dwellings. It is a fact that there should be dwellings for the poorest, since there are about 300,000 subsidised dwellings in the L.C.C. boundaries, but rigidity—a rigidity which is sometimes associated with humanity—tends to freeze tenancies. This is a very big problem.

Does the Minister remember that his predecessor took the view that this was something to be solved entirely by action by the London County Council, but that the recent report has made it quite clear that that is not so? Does he realise, therefore, that he must look at this problem with a fresh mind?

I do not think that my right hon. Friend took that simple view of what is a very complex problem. Of course, it is not caused by any one factor; a number of factors are involved, and I shall continue the active study initiated by my right hon. Friend and helped by the report the London County Council has had prepared.

Will the Minister refresh his mind on this? Does not he recall that his right hon. Friend said specifically that all the problems arising out of this situation could be dealt with by L.C.C. action? Will he now agree that that is not so?

I doubt whether my right hon. Friend said anything as simple as that. The L.C.C. has a great part to play in this, but the factors are wider than those under L.C.C. control alone. That I accept.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will give the area in square feet of the houses built by, or on behalf of, local authorities for the years 1947, 1948, 1949, 1959, 1960 and 1961.

The average area of three-bedroom council houses in tenders approved in each of the years referred to was as follows:

					square feet
1947	…	…	…	…	1,043
1948	…	…	…	…	1,053
1949	…	…	…	…	1,055
1959	…	…	…	…	897
1960	…	…	…	…	897
1961	…	…	…	…	898

These figures include the area of any outbuildings.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his right hon. Friend's predecessor made a statement to a builders' conference in London on 5th April, 1962, to the effect that many new houses are too small, ill-equipped, dull to look at, or just plain ugly? Does not he think that this policy is killing the imagination of designers and architects, who want to build good houses but cannot do so because of the smaller area in which they have to work?

It is a question of balance. Where we have the situation of a fully stretched building industry there is to some extent the necessity to choose between numbers and size. I have no doubt that the right choice has been taken.

But does not the Parliamentary Secretary realise that houses are built to remain for 60 years, and we do not want to have slum houses with us in another 60 years' time? Will he do something about it?

I do not think that there has been a reduction of quality to the extent to which the hon. Gentleman refers. All these sizes have been agreed, and are in part the result of improvements in architectural design.

The hon. Gentleman said that we must choose between numbers and size. Is not he aware that the complaint is that we are getting neither numbers nor size, and that the number of council house completions is lower than 15 yearns ago?

I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that when the rather larger area was in force, under a Government of his own party, the numbers were substantially fewer.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister of Welsh Affairs what are the provisional figures for April and May of this year for the average tender price per square foot for local authority houses.

The average price pea-square foot of three-bedroom houses in tenders approved during April and May was 41s. 7d. and 41s. 8d. respectively.

Does not this mean that the average tender price for council houses of 900 square feet has gone up by £300 in the last 18 months? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor, when he answered a similar Question on 12th July, agreed that faster completion was not the only answer to the problem of getting the price down? Will the hon. Gentleman carry on with the story and tell me what other steps the Government intend to take to get the price down?

I will take the arithmetic of the hon. Gentleman for granted because such a calculation is beyond me at the moment. I think that the most promising line of advance is towards more standardisation and greater productivity in the building industry. This is a matter to which my right hon. Friend is turning his attention and we shall do our best to provide some improvement.

How much of the increased cost is due to wages?

That is actually another question, but, for the information of my hon. Friend, the London rate for craftsmen rose from 4s. 10½d. in February, 1959, to 5s. 10½d. in February of this year.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that when he puts his last Answer side by side with the Answer to an earlier Question, it will reveal that the effect of Government policy on council houses has been that we have fewer of them; each one contains fewer square feet, and each square foot costs more?

Of course, when building costs go up, the square footage costs rise. Despite the lower total area, the size of rooms has been maintained throughout.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what new steps he will take to assist people desiring to become owner-occupiers of their homes.

I have no proposals to put forward at present.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make proposals? Is he aware that the rising prices of houses is progressivaly making it more and more difficult for people who wish to become owner-occupiers, and that some sort of policy is needed?

I think that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has said that my predecessor had turned his attention to the question of productivity in the building industry. I think this is a sphere to which we could look, together with standardisation, to secure lower costs.

Will the Minister undertake to look into the question of leasehold enfranchisement at an early date? Is he aware that this aspect of owner-occupation has become increasingly urgent as the leases fall in?

I am sure that in my capacity as Minister for Welsh Affairs I cannot possibly avoid this very important and urgent matter.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the 400,100 marriages in Great Britain last year, what is his estimate of tine total number of homes which will be built in England and Wales during the next two years.

What matters for housing purposes is not the number of marriages, tout the net increase in the number of households. This is about 100,000 a year. The current rate of building is nearly three times that.

Will the Minister go to see the film, "A Kind of Loving"—

The Prime Minister has seen it

—in order to appreciate bow many marriages are ruined because young couples today cannot find homes of their own? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures he has given do not cover the net increase in households, plus the requirements needed to deal with slum clearance and overcrowding? Is he aware that the best solution to the problems confronting council house tenants and owner-occupiers would be low interest rates for housing loans?

I do not accept the panacea offered by the hon. Gentleman, but I share his passionate concern about the need to try to find some way to increase the rate of house building, bearing in mind the fact of the already fully stretched resources of the building industry.

Will the Minister look into the policy of the French Government in this respect and note what an important part very low interest rates for housing play in the much bigger programme in which the French are engaged?

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to draw attention to the lessons which we can learn from abroad. On my arrival at the Ministry I was presented with all the studies which have been made at the request of my predecessor so that I may be able to consider them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will encourage local authorities to extend the new proposals for improving houses without baths, hot water or inside toilets, by loans to landlords or by compulsory acquisition of certain houses not part of a scheme for a whole area.

The use of the powers available to local authorities for both these purposes will be dealt with in a circular which I am sending to them.

I understand that this circular goes a little way towards meeting the proposals of the Public Health Inspectors Association for area improvement schemes, but why not apply the same limited form of compulsion to individual houses which badly need improvement grants? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that persuasion has failed, since only 23,000 private landlords used the grants last year?

I do not accept that persuasion has failed here. It is a problem where we meet reluctant tenants as well as reluctant landlords. I hope that the circular will be a help.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what new steps he intends to take to assist the provision of low-rented accomodation for large families in the London area.

Housing authorities already have the necessary powers and resources to provide acommodation for large families at low rents, whether by building new dwellings or by the purchase of existing ones.

Will the Minister treat this very important problem in a category by itself? Will he initiate some inquiries to find out how far, as I believe to be the case, the chances of rehousing large families are in fact diminishing rather than increasing, how far local authorities have varied in their enthusiasm for using the powers they have, and what new powers may be desirable?

I am reluctant to promise new inquiries because they might simply overload staff who are already busy trying to tackle the problem. Within that limitation, I will certainly do what the hon. Gentleman requires. I believe that the absolute numbers of large families are relatively small, but I am not denying the misery for those concerned.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will initiate a survey to provide a fresh estimate of the number of people required in essential services in London for whom low-rented dwellings in the central area are a necessity; and what steps he is taking to influence planning developments so that unskilled industries in the London area are replaced by a wide range of small units employing skilled craftsmen.

I am not aware that an estimate of this sort exists nor do I think it would be profitable to attempt to make one. The decentralisation of all forms of industry is a major objective of the planning policy for London.

Did the right hon. Gentleman notice that the figure announced yesterday for the earnings of the mythical average manual worker far exceed the wages brought home by many of the people engaged on the essential services of London? Does he agree that we need either a new wages policy or a new housing policy if we are to accommodate these people where they are required? Will he get the confirmation or his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour through the local youth employment officers that there is a grave shortage of opportunities of skilled employment in London for the product of the new education system?

I do not accept that there is an inadequacy of opportunities for skilled labour in London. There are many factors here. I ask the hon. Member to bear in mind one of them, namely, that in many households more than one wage comes in.

As the Minister has spoken of the Government's intention to decentralise London, may I ask him if the Government have any plans for moving any Government offices out of London?

The Government have in fact set quite a good example in moving out of London.

Have they not also set an example by moving into London, for example at Earls Court and at State House?

Yes, but a large number of Government Departments have moved their offices out of London.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, with a view to the introduction of the necessary legislation, he will discuss with local authorities the adequacy of their powers to engage staff with a view to examining" houses to ascertain whether they have been converted into flats.

No, Sir. I am satisfied that if a local authority needs to engage stall for such work for the purpose of any of its functions it already has adequate powers to do so under Sections 105, 106 or 107 of the Local Government Act, 1933.

Is there much evidence outside the area in which this dispute has arisen about the lack of knowledge of local authorities of the conversion of houses into flats and thereby the consequential loss of revenue?

I do not think so, but I am a little intimidated in this question about giving a verbal answer because there are a number of legal obscurities involved. I will write to the hon. Gentleman.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a general shortage of qualified staff for this purpose? Will he give the matter very serious attention with a view to increasing the staffs of local authorities to help them to assist in this vary valuable work?

Yes.

asked the Prime Minister what plans he has for recommending the setting up of new Royal Commissions between now and the end of this year; and what subjects will be covered.

I shall announce to the House any proposal to recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission in the usual way and at the appropriate time.

Is the Prime Minister aware that he has been setting up these Commissions and Committees at the rate of over one a month over the last year to decide upon things which are properly in the Government's sphere to decide upon? Will he give an assurance that he is going to drop this practice in future, unless he has decided to govern entirely by Royal Commission and dispense with Cabinet Government, which might be a convenience to him at the moment?

I would rather not speculate about any future advice which I might tender to Her Majesty on the matter of Royal Commissions, but I should like once more to pay my tribute to those who have been good enough to give their service upon them.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at Leicester on 7th July last about house mortgages represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

Yes, Sir.

Does the Prime Minister know that his right hon. Friend's admission that the Government had no definite plans to make house purchase easier was greeted with bleak dismay by the general public and that it helped to put the Conservative candidate in the by-election at Leicester, North-East at the bottom of the poll? In these circumstances, why did he not sack the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster as well? It might have made all the difference.

This is a Question about the rate of long-term interest. Short-term rates have dropped and I hope that it is not unreasonable to expect that in due course the long-term interest rate may drop also.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs about the United Nations on Friday, 13th July, at the annual meeting of the General Council of the United Nations Association, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the General Council of the United Nations Association about the United Nations on 13th July represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech on 13th July by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the United Nations Association about the United Nations represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

Yes, Sir. The speech was a forceful exposition of our support for the United Nations and a statement of our disquiet at some of the tendencies which we discern in the Organisation.

Does the Prime Minister realise that this speech represented a marked improvement on the one made at Berwick-on-Tweed on 28th December? Will he note that in the course of making this speech the Foreign Secretary said, comparing the United Nations with the League of Nations of pre-war days, that he did not want to see another great idea destroyed by short-sighted attitudes? Will he bear this in mind?

I will pass to my noble Friend the tribute which the hon. Gentleman has paid him.

Although the speech contained some formal declaration of support for the United Nations, does not the Prime Minister think that the part which was bound to be repeated throughout the world was the sanctimonious lecture to the newer countries on their double standards? Cannot he persuade the Foreign Secretary to drop this attitude? Does he think that this kind of talk about double standards is convincing from a Government who supported the Suez operation?

I think that it is very important, if the United Nations is to do its task successfully, that it should try to keep within its own rules.

Is not the Prime Minister aware that the Foreign Secretary's persistent attacks on the great majority of the nations of the world represented in the General Assembly because they demand an end to colonialism shows how completely out of touch with the modern world he is, and that the Prime Minister's attempts to give the Government a more attractive preelection image by a surgical operation will fail so long as he keeps this nuclear Neanderthal at the Foreign Office?

The best thing I can do is try to put the hon. Member in touch with his hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Milne).

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the majority of the nation thoroughly welcomed the plain speaking and frank expression of honest criticism of the United Nations and would wholly deplore it if this country were automatically to support actions of the United Nations in places like the Congo which are aimed at suppressing freedom?

I thought that the Foreign Secretary gave a good and balanced account of the whole situation.

Does the Prime Minister agree with the extraordinary statement made by his hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) that the United Nations intervention in the Congo was in the terms which the hon. Member described? Would he not make it plain that Her Majesty's Government support the United Nations' attempts in the Congo to maintain peace and to secure a proper settlement?

We are very anxious Chat this matter should be settled within the terms of the resolution by peaceful negotiations and not by warlike action.

While declaring personally that the United Nations should not regard itself as immune from criticism, may I ask whether the real complaint against the Foreign Secretary is not that if he feels disquiet about the activities of the United Nations, the best place in which to express that disquiet is at the General Assembly?

Yes, Sir. He has done that and I have tried to do it.

asked the Prime Minister what opportunity will be available to hon. Members to address questions to the First Secretary of State.

I would refer the right horn. Gentleman to the Order of Questions circulated with the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons, Number 146.

Will the Prime Minister make it clear on which of the subjects for which he is responsible the First Secretary is willing to answer Questions? Will he bear in mind that though the First Secretary's answers seldom mean anything at all, we should be very sorry not to hear them?

I know that the gentleman in Whitehall knows best, but my right hon. Friend knows quite a lot.

In that case could not the Prime Minister tell us in which sphere of knowledge he will specialise?

There is another Question on the Order Paper about that matter.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will publish the conclusions emerging from the latest discussions between United States nuclear scientists and the British scientists led by Sir Solly Zuckerman and Sir William Penney as to the feasibility of discovering and identifying, not only all nuclear test explosions in the atmosphere and undersea, but also minor underground explosions, from monitoring systems situated outside the territories of the nuclear powers.

I made a full statement on these discussions on Tuesday in reply to Questions by the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson). I have nothing to add at this stage.

Is it not a fact that leading American and British scientists in this field have indicated that methods already exist for the detecting and identifying of tests through monitoring systems situated outside the territories of the nuclear Powers, and would it not be desirable to publish the conclusions reached by this conference of scientists? Is not the public entitled to know just where we stand in this matter?

I have placed in the Library the statement made by the Department of Defence. This shows that further progress has been made in work on which the scientists have been engaged for a long time. I hope that this may facilitate all that we hope for, which is a final and comprehensive treaty.

Will the Prime Minister tell us whether he has yet sent more than a mere acknowledgement to the letter which he has received from Professor Don Leet offering to co-operate with British scientists in his method of detecting underground tests?

All this information is available to both the British and American scientists.

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the need for expediting the progress of housing in Scotland, if he will appoint a Minister who will have no other duties but planning a housing drive for Scotland.

No, Sir.

Is the Prime Minister aware of the tremendous problem of housing which still faces Scotland? The City of Glasgow at present cannot hope to solve its housing problem for 20 years and even in enlightened counties like Ayrshire newly married couples have still to be on the waiting list seven years. Does he not think that a new drive should be organised?

Yes, Sir, but this is a question about whether a special Minister should be appointed, and I do not think that that is the right method.

asked the Prime Minister to what extent the new Minister of Public Building and Works will have responsibility in Scotland.

To the same extent as in England and Wales.

Does this mean that new housing powers will be given to the new Minister? What is the meaning of his assurance that this would mean some kind of new housing drive in England? Does that apply to Scotland?

Yes, Sir. I hope that all the efforts of the Ministry of Works which are now available to the Secretary of State for Scotland will be directed to assist him.

asked the Prime Minister what are the duties of the First Secretary of State and of the Minister without Portfolio.

My right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State will act as Deputy Prime Minister and will retain responsibility for the Central African Office and continue to lead the Ministerial group charged with the oversight of the Common Market negotiations.

My right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio will be responsible for the co-ordination of the Government information services at home and has the responsibility normally carried by a member of the Cabinet who has no Departmental duties.

What exactly are the functions to be attached to the office of Deputy Prime Minister? Like the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), I attach great importance to hearing the replies of the First Secretary. Will he answer questions addressed to him as Deputy Prime Minister? As for the Minister without Portfolio, is it simply his job to conduct Government propaganda at home and, if so, is this a suitable charge on public funds?

In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, my right hon. Friend will answer Questions addressed to me in my absence. He will also deal with the special questions to which I have referred, particularly those of Central Africa. In reply to the second part of the question, successive Administrations have found it necessary to co-ordinate the Government information services, and this will be done on the home front by my right hon. Friend.

Does not the Prime Minister realise that the official appointment for the first time in British consti tutional history of a Deputy Prime Minister represents a damaging admission on the Prime Minister's part of his own inadequacies?

This is not an appointment submitted to the Sovereign but is a statement of the organisation of Government. It follows a very high precedent, for it was exactly the arrangement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) when Sir Anthony Eden was appointed Deputy Prime Minister.

Will the Prime Minister answer about the rôle of the Deputy Prime Minister in relation to his task as Chairman of the Cabinet Committee on Common Market negotiations? Does that mean that he will now be answering on Common Market affairs rather than the Lord Privy Seal?

No, Sir. I think that it would be more convenient for the Lord Privy Seal to continue, but this is a statement of the very important task which my right hon. Friend the First Secretary has undertaken for some time past.

Can the Prime Minister hold out any hopes to the House and the country of the possible promotion of the Deputy Prime Minister?

If I were not so anxious not to offend the Leader of the Liberal Party, I might say, "Wait and See."

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many jobs are likely to be provided in West Fife in the current year as a result of the Local Employment Act; and how many jobs will be lost in the same period.

It is estimated that over 550 jobs have arisen or will arise in 1962 in the Dunfermline group of employment exchange areas from new building and other developments approved or assisted by the Board of Trade. I understand that about 250 jobs have been or will be lost in this group of areas during the year as the result of closures and redundancies.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that in one village alone, the village of Kelty, there will be lost in the next two or three years two pits which employ between them about 1,700 men and that there are no immediate prospects of one single job to replace those 1,700? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what further steps the Government have in mind to redress the balance?