asked the Minister of Power what general directions he has now given to the Electricity Council regarding their pay policy.

None, Sir.

Would my right hon. Friend look into the activities of the East Midlands Electricity Board, which is currently advertising for painters at rates above those agreed by the National Joint Council for the building industry and with which private employers in Leicester are finding great difficulty in competing?

I certainly promise to make inquiries into this matter, but I do not think it would be proper for me to intervene. It is a matter which is entirely proper for the organisation of the East Midlands Board.

asked the Minister of Power if he will state the reasons for averring, in his letter of i5th June to the hon. Member for Dewsbury, that the decision to use oil heating at the new Government offices in Dewsbury was the right one.

Because a special study of possible fuels and methods of firing showed that, in this particular case, oil firing would be substantially cheaper.

Is the Minister aware of the great local concern in this matter? Is he also aware that I have a letter from the chairman of the North-Eastern Division of the National Coal Board stating that it was not consulted and was not asked to supply information on costs? How, then, does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the Ministry of Works' calculations were right and that its decision was right? Would he also confirm that this decision is now irrevocable and that the work has gone too far for the decision to be altered, if, in fact, it was substantiated that coal would be cheaper from the beginning?

In answer to the last part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I think I may give that confirmation. In regard to consultations, there have been a number of these cases, and the Ministry of Works is well aware of the kind of range of choices of fuels in which it must 'Work. It was convinced that in this case it would have been quite impossible to achieve the substantial reduction which would have been necessary in order to make coal as economical as oil.

Is it the principle of the Ministry that it does not ask for tenders from the National Coal Board? Is it left entirely to the Ministry of Works?

These Consultations take place between the Ministry of Works and the National Coal Board, and the Ministry of Works is very well aware of the national interest in this matter. In this case, it did not feel that inquiries from the National Coal Board would yield a worth-while result.

Would not the Minister agree that, in this case, it was very regrettable that the Ministry did not go to the National Coal Board, because the figures, as at that time, would have shown that coal would have been cheaper?

In regard to the figures, I do not think they would have shown that at that time, or that they would show it at the present time.

asked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied with the liaison between the Government Departments concerned and the National Coal Board when plans for the heating of new Government offices are considered; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. Departments concerned are aware that coal is our main indigenous fuel and that it should be used where it can do the job as cheaply as alternative fuels. Their attention has been drawn to the National Coal Board's technical sales service.

Will the Minister consider making a further statement about the liaison in this field, so that, at least, the House may know that the sort of incident which happened in my constituency does not happen again?

In view of the hon. Gentleman's interest in the matter, I will certainly make inquiries to see that the machinery, which I am convinced works perfectly well, does not make any mistakes in the future.

Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to ensure that this information is available to other Government Departments, and that, in fact, the machinery is working well, because there is a widespread suspicion that the machinery is not working well? Is he also aware that the technical officers who are advising on the erection of new buildings and on heating seem to have a very definite bias in favour of other fuels? Will he be quite sure that Government Departments are paying attention to the advantages of using coal?

I will certainly examine the matter, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that this is the only complaint that has come to me about this matter.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent the future production of special fissile materials from nuclear reactors owned by, or coming into the ownership of, the Central Electricity Generating Board is earmarked for defence purposes.

Under the arrangements between the Central Electricity Generating Board and the Atomic Energy Authority, nuclear fuel, after irradiation in the reactors at nuclear power stations, is returned to the Authority, who alone are empowered to extract special fissile materials from it.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how, if we enter Euratom, it will become possible to distinguish between fissile materials such as plutonium, which are reserved for defence purposes, and those which are reserved for peaceful purposes, such as for the fast breeder reactors, in view of the fact that the Agency will become the sole owners of these special fissile materials?

The negotiations will have to be very much further advanced before I could answer the hon. Gentleman's question. In any event, I think that the information is probably secret and, there-fore, I should not be able to answer the hon. Gentleman's question anyhow.

That reply is nonsense. Why are we proposing to enter Euratom at all? If we go in, the Government will have to disclose its stocks of special fissile materials—

Order. Can we get nearer to the interrogatory in this speech?

How do the Government propose to comply with the articles of the Euratom Treaty which require that we shall make over to the Euratom Agency the ownership of special fissile materials?

The hon. Gentleman will have seen the statement of my right hon. Friend. I think the negotiations will have to be very much further advanced before we can reach any conclusion about these matters.

asked the Minister of Power if his review of the amount of the loan to Colvilles Ltd. has been completed; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. Since I last reported on this matter to the House a year ago, the liquid position of the company has been adversely affected by changes in the state of trade and increases in costs outside its own control. The company has made its own arrangements to provide additional finance, but I am satisfied that the company needs the assurance that it can draw on the Government loan up to a maximum of £50 million, in accordance with the original agreement. I have therefore agreed that the maximum of the loan should be restored to the original figure of £50 million.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also inform the House what is the rate of interest at the moment and Whether it is proposed to alter the rate of interest paid by Colvilles for the money that it is getting from the Government?

There has been no suggestion that the rate of interest should be altered. The rate of interest is all provided for in the original agreement. All I am saying is that the original agreement should be carried out to the full.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that an additional burden has been imposed upon Colvilles to the tune of about £900,000 a year by the new differential coal price policy that has been imposed upon Scotland?

The hon. Gentleman has pointed this out to me in the past, and I have agreed that there is an extra burden placed on the company in this way. I have also pointed out to him that not only the steel industry's future is important but also the viability of the coal industry in the future.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the estimated manpower position in the Scottish coalfields over the next five years, with special reference to the number of miners who will need to transfer to mines in England.

I cannot add to the statement issued by the National Coal Board on 11th July.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman confirm that considerable numbers of miners in Scotland will either have to leave the industry or, if they want to stay in it, transfer to England? Will he also confirm that, if that is so, those miners will suffer a considerable reduction in wages, as well as being deprived of a normal domestic life, in view of the great housing shortage in the areas to which they will be directed?

I should like to give the hon. Gentleman as much information as I can, but, as I have indicated, the probabilities and possibilities of the future make it very difficult for me to be specific. Even if it were the case that all the pits in category B and category C were to close, the pits in category A will need more manpower, and, with the national wastage, there will be more jobs in future than the number of displaced miners in all the B and C category pits. It is very difficult indeed at this point to forecast what is likely to be the movement of manpower from the B and C category pits, either into other pits or into England.

Is not the right horn. Gentleman aware that even though the manpower increases in the category A pits to the extent which the Divisional Coal Board anticipate, that increase in manpower will almost inevitably be found from collieries adjacent to those developing collieries and from the recruitment of young miners, which must never be stopped if the industry is to live? Is he aware that, in these circumstances, 100 miners who will become redundant in pits which are to be closed will be unemployed if they continue to live in the areas where they are now living; and that, if they are transferred to other pits, they will clearly have to leave the communities in which they now live?

I have tried to give the hon. Gentleman the full picture. This is certainly a grave problem, particularly in certain localities, and these are the problems on which the attention of the House was concentrated in the recent debate, and in which the Government through the Local Employment Act, are anxious and very ready to help.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the National Coal Board is already making plans for the transfer of redundant miners from Scotland? If the right hon. Gentleman has no idea of the number coming from Scotland, how can the Board complete its plans for the transfer of these men to another coalfield?

What I understand the National Coal Board is anxious to do is to re-employ the displaced miners as economically and usefully as possible. It has, therefore, suggested that a number of jobs could be filled in England, but it is still uncertain how many of these offers will be taken up.

asked the Minister of Power if he is yet in a position to make a statement on the financial reorganisation of the National Coal Board.

asked the Minister of Power whether his review of the National Coal Board's long-term prospects has now been completed; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has now agreed with the National Coal Board its financial target in accordance with the policy outlined in Command Paper No. 1337.

I have agreed with the Board that from 1963 its target should be to break even, after paying interest and making proper provision for depreciation. This will include £10 million a year to help cover the difference between depreciation at historic and replacement cost. This is a comparatively modest objective, but the industry has special difficulties, and its achievement will largely depend on the Board's maintaining the coal market around its present size. The targets will be reviewed each year in the light of events inside and outside the industry.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it reasonable to hon. Members on both sides of the House who take the trouble to put down Parliamentary Questions in the hope of getting oral replies that Ministerial answers should be of such inordinate length? Could not this reply have taken the form of a statement by your leave at the end of Questions in reply to the three Questions on the Order Paper?

That could have been done. But I endeavour to encourage brevity on the part of hon. Members asking Questions and Minister answering them.

This reply is not very brief.

I apologise for the length of this answer. I am trying to answer three Questions. I am sorry if I have incurred the wrath of my hon. Friend, but I thought that I would incur the wrath of other Members if I sought to answer these Questions in the form of a statement after Questions.

Is the Minister aware that over the years the interest burden has been quite intolerable, that in fact operating profits have been substantial but have been wiped out because of these inordinate interest charges? When will the right hon. Gentleman and the Government wake up to the fact that unless and until this financial reconstruction takes place the Coal Board will for ever be in the kind of difficulties that it is in at the moment? Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the Ministry of Transport to see whether a solution similar to the one that has been arrived at with British Railways could be applied equally to the coal mines?

The Government have certainly awakened to this fact, and we have been considering the matter with the National Coal Board. There is no disagreement between that Board and the Government, but we think this is not the appropriate time to make a capital reconstruction. It would be wrong to look at certain parts of the capital. The whole capital must be looked at. As I said in my answer, it is important to bring about a better relationship between the Board's whole capital and the earnings of that capital. That is what we are trying to do.

Can my right hon. Friend say for how long a period forward the closure of pits will continue, and, in the light of the statement made by the Lord Privy Seal at Luxembourg on 17th July, can he say to what extent our participation in a common European energy policy is likely to affect the Coal Board's hopes of breaking even?

As to the period during which closures will take place, I have no doubt that closures, which have always taken place as pits have become exhausted in the past, will continue as far ahead as we can see into the future as pits become exhausted.

In view of the financial objective which my right hon. Friend has just explained, would he confirm that the assurances he gave me a few months ago, to the effect that the new investment of the National Coal Board at the rate of between £90 million and £100 million per annum would be found as to three-quarters from its own resources—[HON. MEMBERS: "This is too long."]—and the remainder from new borrowings?

I do not complain at the length of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I think he has probably got the figures correct. I should like to check up and communicate with him.

asked the Minister of Power when he expects to receive the report from the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council on the excessive moisture content in smokeless fuels.

As the Council may need several meetings to consider this important problem, I cannot say when its report will be made.

If the Council should fail to suggest an effective remedy for these very justified complaints, will my right hon. Friend be prepared to do so, for example by insisting upon some form of British Standard to control quality and prevent exploitation? Meanwhile, will he give the widest publicity to all the means now open to consumers for obtaining redress?

Certainly. I am very anxious that consumers should have all possible knowledge of the ways in which they can obtain redress. As I said from this Box last week, one of the best ways is for them to complain and to press their complaints upon merchants. I am sure my hon. Friend will remember that Lady Burton is the chairman of the Council and that when she was a Member of this House she carried the standard unflaggingly on behalf of consumers. I am sure she will not cease to do that now. I cannot possibly think that she will fail.

asked the Minister of Power, if he will state the percentage increase in the output per man shift in the coal mining industry for the first six months of 1962 in comparison with the same period of 1961.

8·2 per cent.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this magnificent performance merits praise from this House and that that praise ought to be conveyed to every member of the mining fraternity, both management and work people? Does he not also agree that many of the statements by his hon. Friends which are denigratory of the coal mining industry and which are designed to create the impression among the public that the industry is inefficient, ought not to lie in the mouths of those Members—

Order. The Minister has no responsibility for expressing opinions about the observations of his hon. Friends.

I think this performance merits great praise and I have taken other opportunities in the past to say so. My hon. Friends are just as anxious as I am to see this industry viable and competitive, and I believe they have confidence in the chairman of the National Coal Board.

asked the Minister of Power if the will consider, in conjunction with the chairman of the National Coal Board, the provision of a Government subsidy for the keeping open of pits until alternative industry is available.

No, Sir. The Board hopes to offer work in other pits to the great majority of miners affected by colliery closures, and the Government will use its powers under the Local Employment Act to attract industry to needy areas.

Since the Minister and, I take it, the Government are unwilling to do anything about subsidising these pits until alternative industry is provided, may I ask the Minister if he is aware that those areas that have already been very badly hit by pit closures do not take any comfort from his telling us today that they will be helped by the Local Employment Act? Can he give us an assurance that the areas which have already been badly hit, and the same areas which are going to be very seriously hit by further pit closures, will have at least one of these industrial sites and advance factories built on them? Surely that is as little as the Ministry of Power can do with this disastrous policy in Scotland?

I do not wart to avoid any part of the hon. Lady's Question, but part of it should certainly be properly directed elsewhere. I must say that, in the past, the National Coal Board has been eminently successful in placing those miners who have been displaced from the pits that have shut. As to the future, the hon. Lady should realise that I am as anxious as she is to see that these miners are re-employed in new work, either in other pits or in new industry. In fact, what she is asking is that no pits should be dosed unitil there is actual work nearby for the miner to go to. If that principle were applied all round, we should have a completely static society in which no one moved from one job to another.

asked the Minister of Power when considering the programme for the closure of pits in Scotland, what discussions (he had with the National Coal Board regarding its policy of importing coal from England into Scotland.

The arrangement of supplies is a matter for the National Coal Board. I have had no discussions with the Board on coal traffic between England and Scotland.

Is it not the case that a very substantial quantity of coal is regularly sent from England to Scotland? Further, as the size of the Scottish coalfield in future is to depend on the sale of Scottish coal, is it not the fact that the more coal that is sent from England to Scotland the smaller will the Scottish coalfield be?

The traffic in coal between England and Scotland is two-way traffic. Rather more goes north than comes south, but it is two-way traffic. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the selection of the sources of supply is properly one for the National Coal Board's own administration, but I will certainly draw the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the attention of Lord Robens.

Can my right hon. Friend say what is to be Her Majesty's Government's policy concerning the general picture of the importation of coal into this country?

I do not know whether that arises out of this Question, but if my hon. Friend will put down a Question about imports I will do my best to answer it.

Is the Minister aware that most of the coal being imported into Scotland is coking coal, and that the Coal Board started the sinking of a pit between Airth and Plean in the Forth area, to cost in the region of £1 million; and that the work has been stopped? The project was intended to get down to the only coking seams in Scotland. When is that new pit to be completed?

That seems to be a question for the Board, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is right in his premise that most of the coal imported into Scotland is coking coal. There is quite a tonnage of house coal, and quite a considerable tonnage of coal for British Railways. But I will certainly ask the Board to look into the point he has raised.

asked the Minister of Power what proportion of British coal being imported into Northern Ireland is now coming from the Scottish coalfield.

About a quarter.

Does the Minister bear in mind that at the end of 1959 there was a sudden switch in policy on exports of coal from Ayrshire to Northern Ireland; and that that was very detrimental to Ayrshire and to Scotland? Since the position is now so black in Scotland, will the night hon. Gentleman reverse that policy, or have it reversed, in order that Ayrshire, or Scotland, can recover what was its long-established traditional market?

I have certainly been made well aware of the change that is taking place, but, again, that is a matter for the Board, as the hon. Gentleman recognises. I can certainly discuss it with the Board, but the Board must pay attention to the needs and wishes of consumers. At the same time, it must take into account the costs of production in the particular source of supply. It cannot ignore those factors in deciding from which source it will supply Northern Ireland.

Can my right toon. Friend say—although I do not think that he can—why, just before the 1959 General Election, the National Coal Board announced that no more Ayrshire coal would be exported to Northern Ireland, and thereby lost me 2,000 votes? That announcement has since been forgotten, but why announce something that it was apparently not intended to carry out and so confuse the whole electorate about the Board's ideas?

Much as I should like to help my hon. Friend, he is quite right in his surmise—I cannot answer his question. However, I will make inquires and write to him about it.

asked the Minister of Power what discoveries on the chemical uses of coal have been made in Great Britain since the publication of the Wilson Report.

No outstanding discoveries have taken place but improvements in the use of coal products are continually being made by the National Coal Board, the Coal Tar Research Association, the British Coal Utilisation Research Association and others.

Cam the Minister confirm that he is keeping abreast of the latest scientific discoveries and of their industrial application?

I certainly feel that there is sufficient inquiry going on in these matters not to miss any important possibility.

asked the Minister of Power if, in view of the need to develop the chemical uses of coal, he will introduce legislation to enable the National Coal Board to operate plants designed to exploit modern discoveries in this field.

The National Coal Board already has these powers under subsection 2 (1) of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946.

asked the Minister of Health if he will take steps towards the provision of fluoride in the drinking water supplies in areas where the natural concentration is low, in view of the results achieved in certain areas of the country and the resultant benefit to health.

asked the Minister of Health what action he proposes to take following his recent report on the experiments on the fluoridation of water to prevent dental decay.

asked the Minister of Health what action he now proposes to take to prevent dental decay by adding fluoride to drinking water.

I would refer the hon. Members to my (reply of 9th July to the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon).

When the Minister examines the report he has received, will he consider providing financial assistance to local authorities which are prepared to introduce fluoridation of their water supplies; bearing in mind that the cost would be very low and that the Ministry of Health would save large sums of money on the treatment of dental decay?

The fact that the cost would be very How can be argued both ways, but this is obviously one of the points in question.

Is the Minister aware that he has been ultra-cautious in taking such a long time to reach a decision, but now that the Report has come out, will he press on with the utmost speed so as to get action on the results of the experiments? Will he also make it known to local authorities that there is no value in stannous fluoride being used in toothpaste; that the real answer lies in the fluoridation of water and not in toothpaste?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's second point arises on this Question. As to the first point, this report has only recently appeared. It deads with a very important matter, and I think it right that time should be spent in giving it full consideration.

As the Government find it almost impossible to provide adequate school dental services, would it not be simpler, quicker and cheaper to adopt the recommendation of the Committee with regard to fluoridation than to allow the situation to drift?

I do not think that this would obviate the importance of the school health service, but it is obviously a point in the matter.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the doubts about this matter are not confined to eccentric opponents of the proposal, but that it is a subject of very widespread importance and most people will be very grateful to him if he takes the utmost care in examining it before reaching a decision that will affect so many people?

I agree entirely about the importance of this point.

asked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in the consideration of methods of estimating the scale of net emigration of doctors from Great Britain; and to what extent the National Health Service has been affected by the departure of doctors for Saskatchewan in particular.

I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a recent statement. Not appreciably.

Is the Minister aware that the events in Saskatchewan, in particular, are being followed with close interest in this country, and will he give the Canadian Government all the encouragement he can by demonstrating to them that had the United Kingdom Government at the time of the introduction of the Health Service yielded to the same kind of pressure we might have been without a Health Service here?

I do not think that that in any way arises on this Question.

In order to get a fair analysis on the Question, would my right hon. Friend also give the figures of the Commonwealth and alien doctors who are working in the Health Service here?

Not without notice, but I will write to my right hon. Friend giving the figures. They are undoubtedly an important element in the staffing of the hospital service, but the British staffing of the hospital service has also increased, and is steadily increasing.

Can the Minister be a little more forthcoming in reply to the first half of my hon. Friend's Question? Many of us have read his speech, but we should like to know what steps he is taking to find out the figures of emigration, and what progress he has made so far.

The evidence is such as to make it clear that the scale of emigration is not a serious factor in the staffing of the Health Service.

asked the Minister of Health what consideration he is giving to combining tests in radiological mobile units for detection of chest ailments with appropriate tests for detection of excessive blood sugar and similar diabetic symptoms; and how he is increasing facilities for diabetic diagnosis.

It is undesirable to link the two procedures. There is no lack of facilities for diagnosis.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the evidently large number of undiagnosed diabetics in this country today, which are said to run to several hundreds of thousands, represents a cause of a great deal of alarm? As the Americans appear to be ahead of us in the mass diagnosis of this disease, cannot my right hon. Friend say what additional steps are being advised to local health authorities to diagnose it more accurately and on a wider scale?

I am aware of the figures to which my hon. Friend referred, but if we were to combine mass diagnosis of diabetes with mass radiography I am afraid that the result would be that we should reduce the very important scale of the resort to mass radiography. For the present, it is right that the available facilities—very full facilities—should be used by and through the general practitioner service.

In addition to the undetected cases referred to by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), has the Minister's attention been drawn to a survey of diagnostic procedures carried out some months ago in Scottish hospitals which revealed a high percentage—40 per cent.—of wrong diagnosis? In view of the undetected cases and the alarmingly high percentage of wrong diagnosis, surely the Minister ought to have a look at this very important matter?

If this was in Scottish hospitals, obviously I must not comment on the individual point, but I do not think that mass diagnosis would meet the difficulty, if it exists, to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will now take the necessary powers to set up a statutory authority, comparable with the food and drugs administration in the United States, to supervise the clinical trials of new drugs and to authorise their marketing and prescription.

asked the Minister of Health if he will set up a committee to consider the avoidable risks attendant on the introduction of new drugs within the National Health Service, the desirability of establishing standards for, and independent assessment or control of, clinical trials, and to make recommendations.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the dangers to health which have been experienced by the use of some new drugs; and what precautions he is taking to ensure that no new drugs shall be used without adequate research into their potential danger.

I am seeking advice through my Standing Medical Advisory Committee on the question of the testing of new drugs generally.

I welcome the fact that the Minister is at last going to take some action, but will he bear in mind that the essentials for an authority of this kind is that it should be independent, impartial and free from undue commercial or even professional pressure? In these circumstances, will he bear in mind that the United States Food and Drugs Authority has a long and efficient experience of acting as a supervisory body over the marketing and prescription of drugs and was thus able to avoid the tragedy which has recently taken place from the use of thalidomide?

I would not accept the inference in the hon. Gentleman's last words, but I would agree that American experience is a very useful and interesting fact in what is a very big subject. Nevertheless, I think it is right to put on record that both the profession and the manufacturers have exercised their responsibilities to the full.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in view of the very serious public concern about recent tragic events, his announcement today will be very welcome? Is he further aware that it is very important if a committee of this kind is set up, which we hope it will be, that it shall be an official committee with public accountability to the House and it will not be sufficient to leave the assessment of clinical tests and control of new drugs either to the medical profession or the pharmaceutical industry, or both?

It would obviously be premature for me to comment on that until I have received the advice that I mentioned I am seeking.

I appreciate the very important statement the Minister has made. Has he any idea how long it will be before such a committee is set up, in view of the very serious position with regard to some drugs and the consequences which have ensued? As there was no supervision, in the sense of a committee of this sort investigating the drugs, what is he prepared to do about the tragic results which have flowed from the use of drugs which have not been examined in this way? Will he arrange for compensation to be paid to these people?

That is an entirely separate question which the hon. Gentleman must table. I cannot give any time for the receipt of the advice which I have mentioned I intend to call for. I again emphasise that there is no reason to suppose that either the manufacturers or the profession are not fulfilling their responsibilities absolutely fully.

Before my hon. Friend sets up a committee on the wider powers, will he bear in mind that the processes of the courts can be used to discourage incidents of this sort, and will he allow the normal processes of the law to act as a safeguard?

I have not taken the decision that my hon. Friend refers to. I think I must await advice on this whole question.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that there is further evidence from the Continent of children being born with congenital deformities to mothers who have taken the sedative thalidomide and that during 1960 and 1961 500 infants were born in this country with malformations which may be attributable to this drug; and whether he will now make arrangements for clinical studies of other sedatives in order to ascertain whether any connection exists between abnormal births and the use of such sedatives.

I am aware of this evidence. I am informed that research has not suggested any connection of abnormal births with other sedatives.

Is not the tragedy of the thalidomide babies a great national disaster, greater in its ramifications than any single train accident in the history of this country, for example? In these circumstances, is it not premature to draw a veil over the whole matter while there are many aspects of it which have not been cleared up? For example, why during 1960 and 1961, when there was a sharp increase in the number of abnormal births not only on the Continent but in this country also, was no correlation observed or investigated between the increase in the number of abnormal births and the increased use of sedatives, particularly thalidomide? In these circumstances, does not the matter call for a committee of investigation to go into the whole matter to find out why during the whole of this period no one apparently was investigating the increased incidence of abnormal births in this country? Did the Minister himself take any action? If not, will he do something about it?

I am not anxious to draw a veil over any aspect of this matter, although I shall not vie with the hon. Member in expressions about the feelings which will be in the minds of all of us in contemplating it. I can only answer the Questions put to me. I was asked if I would arrange for clinical studies to see whether other sedatives may be involved. I have told the hon. Member that studies do not indicate that other sedatives are involved.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great public concern about what he is prepared to do in the cases of the deformed children who have already been born? Will he look into this associated matter about the provision of hospital schools for limbless babies, of which I understand there are only two with a very limited number of beds? Since they will be quite incapable of meeting the new demand, will the Minister look into the possibility of extending the provision?

My advice is that the resources of the Health Service should be fully adequate for meeting all the health service needs—all those within the responsibility of my Department—which may be involved in the case of these limbless babies.

While I am quite certain that we have not found the right answer to the question of testing new drugs, has my right hon. Friend toad any medical advice indicating that it would have been possible to have discovered the effects that thalidomide has bad before these tragedies had taken place?

It is always impossible to answer a "might have been" with complete certainty, but I think it right to say that there is no machinery which could guarantee to detect in advance all the long-term side effects of a drug.

Are these deformities notifiable by hospital services to local health authorities? In the case of the American experience, is it not a fact that the one physician who put a warning light up about this drug has been recommended for a decoration? Is this not proof that there is some prima facie case of danger to people who take this drug?

I have no information on the second point. If the hon. Member will put down a Question on the first point, I shall answer it.

asked the Minister of Health if he will introduce legislation to give persons in charge of residential homes established under Section 21 (1) (a) of the National Assistance Act, 1948, a right of appeal to him in the event of their dismissal from employment, in view of the fact that he already possesses power to authorise inspection of such homes under Section 39 of that Act.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have sent particulars of the dismissal of Miss Robinson from one of these homes in Newcastle? In view of the circumstances of that dismissal and that he has power to order inspection of these homes, does not my right hon. Friend think that in common justice these people should have some right of appeal to him?

I am aware of the case to which my hon. Friend has referred, but the fact that I have the right and duty to inspect homes to see whether they are properly conducted is not relevant to this Question. The Question asks whether I should take power to interfere between a local authority as employer and its employees. My answer to that question is, "No, Sir."

asked the Minister of Health if his hope, expressed in circular HM (61) 108 of 22nd November, 1961, that by 30th June, 1962, registration of all cancer cases in hospitals would be complete, has been fulfilled.

My right hon. Friend has called for this information by the end of this month.

Why should it take eight months to provide this very important information? If it must take eight months, can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that by the end of next month these figures will be complete and there will be an adequate number of statisticians employed and the appropriate authorities to make adequate use of them?

I regret that the information has been coming in somewhat slower than we expected, but my right hon. Friend expressed the hope in the hospital memorandum which was circulated that by 30th June registration of cancer cases in hospital should be complete and that regional boards and boards of governors would then be able to send us by 31st July further particulars of arrangements. I do not think there is an undue delay. When the information has been received we can judge what coverage is being obtained.

Is not this a ridiculous time to take considering that the circular was in most urgent terms?

asked the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement on the present shortage of dental services in the country, and on the steps he proposes to take to meet the situation.

The volume of dental treatments given continues to rise rapidly. This rise should continue as the number of dentists qualifying continues to increase.

Is the Minister aware that there is still a very considerable shortage and that according to the arrangements he has made at present it will take seven years before sufficient dental surgeons will be available? Is he aware that there is considerable disappointment in regard to the arrangement being made for the payment of dentists and that the more they organise their practices the less they receive per person? Will the right hon. Gentleman say that he will look into the whole matter again to see what can be done?

I do not accept the implication of what the hon. Member has said about pay. What I am aware of is that whatever the shortage may be it is being overtaken at a great rate. The rate of treatment rose by 15 per cent. in the last two years and the numbers of dentists qualifying toy 30 per cent. in the last four years.

asked the Minister of Health why an invalid vehicle has been refused to Mr. James Speight, of Blackburn, whose right leg has been permanently stiffened as a result of a war injury and who is unable to use public transport to get to work because he cannot sit down in the bus with his leg stretched out without obstructing other passengers, cannot stand inside because he is too tall, cannot mount the stairs to travel on top, and has been refused permission to travel on the platform.

Mr. Speight is recovering from an operation. He will be re-examined before the end of the year to determine his eligibility.

Surely the hon. Gentleman is aware that the hon. Lady who preceded him has admitted to me that this man's leg has been permanently stiffened and that the operation cannot possibly alter that condition? As a result of that permanent stiffening, he cannot walk more than 150 yards without his leg swelling and causing him considerable pain. He has to go 2¼ miles to work. What is he supposed to do during the six months? Does the hon. Gentleman not appreciate that a permanently stiffened leg can be even more difficult to manage than an artificial one? What is he suggesting, that the man should have his leg amputated in order that he should qualify?

Since Mr. Speight is recovering from an operation on his knee, it is not possible to estimate how well he will eventually be able to walk. Arrangements were made to re-examine him in six months' time. I am advised that our doctors consider that in due time he will be able to walk moderately well. I believe he may not qualify for a power-propelled vehicle. While a man's condition is slowly improving it is quite impossible to assess it for what after all is a Government appliance.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that as a result of this operation the man's right leg is 2¼ inches shorter than his left leg? The operation was merely concerned with infection of the bone following permanent stiffening of his knee. There is a principle involved here. If someone has a permanently stiffened knee he is in a worse condition than if he has an artificial leg; he finds it difficult to walk and to get about by public transport. Why is the Minister asking this man to wait when he has a disability now?

There appears to be some conflict in the evidence in this case. I fully understand the hon. Lady's anxiety in respect of her constituent and I shall certainly look into the matter again.

asked the Minister of Health how many young persons aged 14, 15, 16 and 17, respectively, are at present detained at Broadmoor; whether his regulations prescribe any minimum age for such detention; and what special arrangements are made for the accommodation and treatment of such young persons.

One, none, 2 and 2, respectively; no; so far as possible they are kept as a group.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate the surprise that will be engendered by the discovery that there is no statutory minimum age, or no minimum age laid down below which a young person or a child cannot be sent to what is, after all, by its nature a very formidable place, Broadmoor? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that it is proper in this day and age for a child of 14 to be committed to Broadmoor, under the Mental Health Act? Would it not be proper for him to open discussion with the appropriate legal authorities to see if some minimum age can be laid down?

I quite understand the considerations which are in my hon. Friend's mind, and very anxious consideration was given to this case. Where full security, such as is available only at Broadmoor, is necessary, accommodation at Broadmoor must necessarily be accepted. Nevertheless, the progress of this patient, as of all other Broadmoor patients, will be anxiously watched.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Kyre Park, near Tenbury Wells, Worcestershire, was closed as a sanatorium more than fifteen months ago and has since stood idle, though fully equipped; what response he has sent to the city authority in Birmingham which has made application for the use of Kyre Park as a sanatorium and nursing home for children suffering from asthma, bronchitis and other chest ailments; what is the present cost to public funds of retaining Kyre Park on a care and maintenance basis; and whether he will make a detailed statement as to the future of Kyre Park.

It was offered to the corporation last August: negotiations are proceeding on price. Equipment useful in other hospitals has been removed. Care and maintenance is at the rate of £2,640 a year.

In view of local anxieties, can my right hon. Friend say when he hopes to bring these negotiations to a conclusion?

Very soon, I hope.

asked the Minister of Health what steps have been taken to provide patients in National Health Service hospitals with earphones or otherwise prevent the seriously ill, and those who do not want it, being subjected to radio and television noise.

Hospitals have been advised to do this; earphones and pillowphones are in general use in most hospitals.

Can my hon. Friend say what proportion of the hospitals have acted on this advice which I am glad the Ministry of Health is giving them?

I could not say without notice, but the attention of all hospital authorities was drawn to the matter in July last year when they were sent the Report of the Standing Nursing Advisory Committee of the Central Health Services Council.

Does not that last answer rather indicate that the recommendations of the Department tend to be ignored? Surely it is a fact that in many hospitals and institutions this sort of thing goes on? Is it not very cruel and hindering recovery? Cannot the Department be persuaded to take a stronger line in this matter?

I do not think it at all fair for my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Sir G. Nicholson) to draw that inference from my answer to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Mem- ber for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison). If my hon. Friend has a specific case in mind—as he may well have—in respect of an individual hospital and will let me have the particulars, I shall certainly look into it straight away.