asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many turnstiles have been removed from municipal public conveniences since 31st July, 1962; and how many local authorities are still refusing to remove their turnstiles.

At least 423 turnstiles either have been or are going to be removed—56 more than at 31st July. The number already removed is not known. Fifty authorities have refused to remove any turnstiles; nine have removed some turnstiles but are keeping others.

Does not the figure of fifty local authorities which have refused to remove turnstiles mean that four more have decided to defy the Minister since his last Answer to me in July? In other words, is not rebellion on the increase, instead of there being conformity on this urgent public matter? In view of this, will the Minister now undertake to introduce legislation immediately to compel local authorities to fall into line, because women are losing all patience on this matter?

It is certainly true that the number of definite refusals has risen, but this is due to the fact that four further authorities which had not replied at all have now done so. I think the hon. Lady will agree that an increase to 60 per cent. shows that progress is being made. I do not think that the powers of persuation have been exhausted, although my right hon. Friend in no way departs from the undertaking with regard to legislation, should this prove necessary.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he has yet received the report of the Working Committee on the law concerning pecuniary interests of members of local authorities; if he is aware of the difficulties caused to many authorities by the inability of councillors who are council house tenants to vote on housing matters; and if he will make a statement.

I have this Report. Members who are council house tenants may take a full part in housing questions in which they have no pecuniary interest. Where they have such an interest, the general rule is that they should not vote. I am sure this rule should be maintained, but I am prepared to consider applications for removal of the disability to vote in cases where otherwise a policy to which the majority of a council are opposed seems likely to be adopted.

Is not the Minister aware that he is merely repeating what has already been said on very many occasions? Assurances were given by the previous Minister that he was looking at a report from a Working Committee which held out some hope to local authorities. Will the Minister consider getting rid of this anomalous law so that we will not have a position, as we have now, Where one rule apparently is applies to local councillors and a totally different rule is being applied to Ministers who leave the Front Bench and take up City appointments? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]

I must defer any statement until I have completed the study of this report, but I should not like to hold out any hope that any changes in my policy on voting by council house tenants is probable.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what proposals he has received from the Association of Municipal Corporations providing for a new solution for the merger of boroughs and district councils.

The Association of Municipal Corporations has sent me a memorandum on the reorganisation of local government units within counties—that is as part of the forthcoming county reviews—in which it proposes the formation of joint "borough and district councils" by amalgamation. This is to be discussed with the Association in the near future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the preliminary implementation of tae provisions of the Local Government Act, 1958, has given rise to much criticism and hostility among our ancient boroughs? Will he consider, as a matter of urgency, discussions with this association and with representatives of other local authorities to see whether a basis agreeable to all local authorities can be found for amending legislation?

Discussions are imminent, and I should certainly welcome any practicable and generally acceptable way of oiling the wheels of change.

Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance in considering this matter that, whilst agreeing to the non-county boroughs preserving the traditional trappings to which they are accustomed, he will in all reasonable cases preserve to them also the realities of local government administration?

It is difficult for me to give a general answer going beyond the circular which outlines the policies which I hope that counties will bear in mind, but, of course, counties are obliged to consult local authorities concerned about any proposals they may wish to make.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the total number of planning appeals in respect of property in England and Wales notified to his Department and waiting the holding of inquiries by his Department's inspectors, at the latest convenient date and at the equivalent dates 12 and 24 months previously.

At the end of September there were 2,949 appeals awaiting local inquiries; the comparable figures requested are 3,134 and 2,390 respectively.

Has there not been any inquiry as to the cause of these continuing high figures of appeals?

The clear answer is that the intake of planning appeals has been progressively increasing. For example, the appeals in 1960 were 28 per cent. up on 1959, and those in 1961 were 20 per cent. up on those of 1960. There has, at the same time, been a substantial increase in the number of inspectors and I am glad to say that we are now booking inquiries over a shorter period than before, and hope to maintain the improvement.

Can we be told the number of inspectors available to carry out these inquiries at the moment?

There are 121 engaged on full-time work, with a dozen on part-time work.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will state the reason for his failure to come to a decision in the case called in Planning Application No. 1286 (Staffordshire County Council), dated April, 1962, which has been the subject of verbal and written representations by the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth during May and June, 1962, and which is still undecided.

The application to which the hon. Member refers was one of nine applications being dealt with together. My right hon. Friend's decisions on all these applications are being conveyed to the parties today. He regrets the delay in reaching this position and I am writing to the hon. Member to explain matters to him.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the west Midlands, the planning delays attaching to overspill migration will become more and more serious; and that this sort of unpardonable delay means that people are not getting their homes but, under Government policy, are transferring from the Birmingham conurbation to my constituency? Will he please see that this sort of case does not happen again?

As I assured the hon. Member the other day, we are considering most seriously any suggestions for improvement, but I would deny that the delay in this case has been unpardonable. This is an area that lacks main drainage, which means a lat of complications in reaching a decision.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he will make a decision on the West Street site in Brighton as the result of the inquiry held several months ago.

I am now considering the inspector's report but it will be a little time yet before I can give my decision.

Does my right hon. Friend realise how much trouble this is causing in Brighton because of the waste of the land and because of the uncertainty of the people in knowing what to do with that part of the town? Can he tell us how long he has had this report before him, and, furthermore, how true is the rumour that he cannot get on with it because of the shortage of typists?

No. This is a very complex project involving a large number of individual interests and property and it must take time before I can come to a decision. The inspector's report was received in June of this year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will now make a statement about the future of Blackbushe Aerodrome.

My right hon. Friend is at present considering certain planning appeals relating to this aerodrome, and he hopes to be able to announce his decision shortly.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that this appeal dates back to last March, that many months have gone by, and that the uncertainty is causing a great deal of hardship to those who wish to develop Blackbushe as a civilian aerodrome? Can he give an assurance that an answer will be given in the reasonably near future?

I can assure my hon. Friend that everything possible is being done to expedite the decision. I would point out to him that this matter has raised very complicated legal issues with regard to common rights and this has caused the delay.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects to issue to local planning authorities the circular on the review of development plans, particularly in relation to the coastal area within their boundaries.

My right hon. Friend has decided that a general circular on the lines originally proposed is not now needed, but he intends to issue quite soon a separate circular about development in coastal areas.

Has not this circular been in the course of preparation and under discussion with the interested parties for more than a year? As the problem is getting increasingly acute in the coastal areas, will my hon. Friend see that it is made public without delay?

Yes, I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman that undertaking. However, it is not quite true to say that, in its present form, it has been under consideration for all that time.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will take action to preserve Eldon Square, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in view of its architectural and historical importance.

These buildings are listed under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, as being of architectural interest. The City Council has just submitted an amendment to its development plan under which the buildings would be demolished. In considering this my right hon. Friend will take account of the architectural and historic interest of the Square as well as the arguments in favour of redevelopment.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the importance of these buildings is national and that it goes beyond purely local interest? This is one of the few cities with really fine 18th Century town planning. Will he urge his right hon. Friend to use his position as guardian of the nation's artistic heritage to make sure that these buildings are not demolished?

I can assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend's advisory committee on buildings of special architectural and historical interest has been consulted and its views will be taken carefully into consideration. However, I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's final decision.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, in the opinion of many people, the commercial aspect of urban redevelopment is being overstressed? Many small business people—those with businesses which are important to the life of the City of Newcastle and district—are concerned at the probable high rents they will have to pay following redevelopment. Is my hon. Friend further aware that in the neighbouring Percy and Blackett Streets, which are affected by this scheme, many small shopkeepers are likely to be priced out of existence by the multiple stores and branches of the co-operative society? Will he persuade his right hon. Friend to use his influence to persuade local authorities to liaise to the fullest extent with private enterprise?

My hon. Friend has raised a number of points which do not arise out of this Question. I assure him that my right hon. Friend is constantly urging local authorities to give consideration to the points he has raised.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there are two very decided schools of thought about this? To many people there is nothing of real outstanding architectural or historical value attached to Eldon Square; at least, nothing to the degree that should hold up the planning development of the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne? Does the hon. Gentleman realise how necessary it is that this replanning should take place so that Newcastle may attract industrialists to develop in the area?

As I told the House I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's decision. All these factors will be taken into account. I am sure the hon. Member for. Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) appreciates that if there were not two schools of thought on almost everything, our lives would be much more tedious.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will co-operate with the County Councils Association in its inquiries into the possibility of levying rates on the financial resources of a household to pay.

I understand that what the Association has in mind is an inquiry into the whole subject of local government finance. I welcome its initiative and will be happy to help in any way I can, but I do not think it desirable that I should be associated with the inquiry.

My right hon. Friend will bear in mind, will he not, that a great many of us want to have the rate based on ability to pay? Does he not agree that this is a wonderful opportunity to do something for those living on small fixed incomes? May I have his co-operation?

Yes, but it is into the practicability of this idea that the County Councils Association is setting up this inquiry.

As the Minister has already expressed the view that private landlords should be allowed to take ability to pay into account when collecting rents, surely public authorities, when collecting public revenue, would have an equally good case for doing the same?

But in fact, of course, the rating system is based on the occupation of property and anyone who chooses to occupy property must take into account the rate implications of that occupation.

Whatever may be the views of the electors of Tynemouth, many people believe that one Income Tax is quite high enough as it is without having another one superimposed on it.

My hon. Friend brings out cogently one of the factors one is inevitably led to if one departs from the objective test of rates which we have at the moment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what stage the investigation of the slum clearance problem being conducted by the Welsh Office has reached; when it is anticipated it will be concluded; and whether the results of the investigation will be published.

One hundred and fifty-three of the 168 Welsh local authorities have given information to my Welsh Office about their residual slum clearance problems. The fifteen which have not done so are being pressed for this information. The results of the investigation are now being assessed and these will be set out in the next Report on Developments and Government Action in Wales and Monmouthshire.

May we have the Minister's assurance that in conducting this investigation there will be no attempt, as would appear to have been indicated in the last Report, to minimise the seriousness of the problem? May we also have an assurance from the Minister that in considering what should be categorised as slum clearance careful attention will be given to all those houses which are pre-1875?

I can assure the House that a realistic survey is being made, the results of which will be published.

When may we expect the Report on Developments and Government Action in Wales and Monmouthshire.

1st March.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what action he proposes to take to implement the recommendations of the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire in its Report, Command Paper No. 1821, on the rural transport problem in Wales.

Although the Council's Report was submitted to me in accordance with the normal practice—and I should like to take this opportunity of warmly thanking them for it—action on the recommendations, so far as this is the responsibility of a Minister, is a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Transport. But I shall, of course, keep in close touch with him at all stages.

May I ask the Minister whether, in view of the fact that in addition to the Report of the Council, which he had before him for seven months before it was published, he has had last week's recommendation of the Transport Users' Consultative Council, which bears out what the Committee has said, he will now urge the Minister of Transport to suspend the closure of the line which connects South-West Wales with Mid-Wales and the Midlands until the reports of his own Council and of the Transport Committee have been fully considered?

There is a Question on this sort of matter to my right hon. Friend from one of the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends tomorrow.

May I ask the Minister, as he is responsible for the Council of Wales, whether he has conveyed with his own support this recommendation to the Minister of Transport?

I am in close touch with my right hon. Friend on all the implications of this Report.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why the Report of the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire, Command Paper No. 1821, which was submitted to him in February, 1962, was not presented to Parliament until September, 1962.

Although the Report was first submitted by the Council on 6th February, it did not wish to have it published immediately. When it was eventually put forward for publication about the middle of the year, arrangements were made for it to be presented to Parliament with the least possible delay.

Does the Minister realise that the withholding, by whatever action it was, of this Report during these crucial months has prevented all those responsible from having these recommendations before them when certain rail closures have been considered in Wales which have a serious effect on the rural population?

I think that the right hon. Gentleman will understand that this was arranged fully in accordance with the wishes of the Council and that is my responsibility.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why he refused to confirm the compulsory purchase order made by the council of the Metropolitan Borough of Fulham in respect of 12A North End Crescent, W.14.

The council failed to establish that the tenant was in danger of being made homeless and that the rent was exorbitant in relation to comparable property.

Does the Minister realise that the rent being asked was five times the gross value? Does he appreciate that if he does not regard that as exorbitant it will render nugatory any powers that local authorities have to prevent extortion? Does he remember that he said that in coming to his decision he looked to the owner to put the property in repair but that nothing was done, and that it has been done now only because the council threatened to take further action?

On the repairs point, the landlord did undertake to carry out repairs at once. He did not carry out that undertaking and proceedings were commenced against him. On the other point, the council did not produce any evidence that the rent asked was beyond the tenant's means or that he could not afford alternative accommodation at an economic rent. The tenant made no attempt to negotiate with his landlord.

But does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the tenant was already paying the economic rent and was being asked for much more than that? If the Minister is to take as a criterion whether the rent is within the tenant's means, it means that the landlord can screw up the rent indefinitely according to the size of the tenant's income.

But the rent of accommodation must reflect its size and the rent of comparable accommodation in the neighbourhood and, to a certain extent, the means of the tenant—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Certainly. The rent-paying capacity is a factor to be taken into account. I am told that in this case the tenant made absolutely no attempt to negotiate with the landlord.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many improvement grants for installing baths, hot water systems and inside lavatories were made in each of the first three quarters of 1962; and how many of these were made to private landlords, owner-occupiers and local authorities.

I would refer the hon. Member to the relevant tables in the Housing Return which is published quarterly. These give as much of the information asked for as is available to me from the returns made by the local authorities.

I thought that the Minister might have told us what it was, but does not the right hon. Gentleman's recent circular encourage local authorities to use compulsory purchase orders, which is an admission that compulsion is the only way to make the landlords, or most landlords, apply for grant? Is not that policy exactly contrary to what the Government have previously said?

No. The hon. Gentleman has perhaps failed to notice that in a recent speech in this House I said that persuasion was the proper policy for the Government up to now, and now, but that maybe we shall have to consider whether some pressure upon both landlords and tenants may not be necessary one day.

If the Minister has further measures in mind beyond his recent circular, as I hope he has, will he bear in mind the proposals of the public health inspectors for giving to local authorities themselves the power to install baths in the landlords' houses?

I told the House that I was studying all these matters.

In view of the Minister's astonishing statement that landlords should have some regard to tenants' means, does the right hon. Gentleman say that, in addition to any increase of rent arising out of that position, the landlords should see how well dressed tenants are, or what furniture they have—or how are they to be judged?

That supplementary question does not appear to arise out of this Question.

If it does not arise out of this Question, may I ask the Minister if he proposes——

If it does not arise out of the Question it is out of order as a supplementary question.

This is not out of order——

Oh.

I am entitled to make a submission to Mr. Speaker and I shall do so, and hon. Gentlemen opposite will not put me off. What I want to put to you, Mr. Speaker, is that arising out of the improvement grants there will be increases in rent. [Interruption.] It follows that if a landlord gets an improvement grant the rent goes up. If the Minister proposes to make an early statement to us about how he intends to assess, and how landlords are supposed to assess, increases of rent based on tenants' means, is it not possible for him to say what are to be the criteria in his judgment?

I am unable to accept the hon. Gentleman's argument. I am afraid that I do not agree with it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is his estimate of the full-cost rent of a typical three-bedromed council house, taking into account current costs of land, construction and maintenance and current rates of interest; and what he estimates the full cost rent would be on the assumption that the average price of building land, builders' profits and maintenance costs had increased since 1948 by no more than the increase in the general price level, and that interest rates for long-term housing loans were at their lowest postwar level.

The only comparison I could make is on the basis of building costs, which, since 1948, have risen by rather less than the general level of prices. But I do not think that any such comparison would be useful unless account is also taken of changes in the level of earnings over the same period and the increased rent-paying capacity of tenants.

Why has the Minister left out comparison on the basis of interest charges? He has already indicated to other hon. Members that interest charges today represent two-thirds of the economic cost of a house or flat? Will he undertake to go to Prague, where I was recently, and see the flats built there by the State or by local authorities and let at rents that vary between 1½ per cent. and 5 per cent. of the tenant's income. He will find that that is done because the State owns the land, and because no interest rates at all are charged on the capital invested. If that can be done there, why can it not be done here?

This country has made considerable progress by its own system, and while we can always learn a certain amount from abroad I assure the hon. Gentleman that housing progress here is not limited at the moment by the rate of interest.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what proportion of a householder's income he assumed to be reasonably available for the payment of rent when he advised local authorities to charge full-cost rents to those tenants who could afford to pay such rents; what estimate he has made of the number of persons in, or seeking, rented accommodation who are in this category; and what proportion this forms of all adult male wage earners.

It is for each local authority to determine in the light of local conditions which of their tenants can reasonably be asked to pay full-cost rents. My concern is that rent rebates should be given only to those tenants who really need help with their rents. It is of course the income of the household, not only of the householder, that should properly be taken into account.

How can the Minister possibly give that sort of advice to local authorities unless he has some concept of what it is reasonable for a tenant to afford out of his total income? Does he really think that there is any large proportion of the community today who can afford to pay rents of £3 5s. a week or more for houses?

There are more and more very successful differential rent schemes being applied by local authorities that show that good houses can be provided for all ranges of tenants by use of these schemes.

How far is the Minister going to push this principle? When improvement grants are paid to the owners of private property is there to be any inquiry into the means of the owner of the private property to ask him if he could not improve his property at his own expense?

The taxpayer is at the moment finding £63 million a year by way of subsidy, for local authorities to use sensibly to enable tenants, whatever their incomes, to have decent accommodation. That is the immediate answer to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what part the reclamation of derelict land is intended to take in his department's plans for slum clearance.

Speeding up slum clearance means in the first place building houses quickly for those who will be displaced and then making the best use of the cleared sites. If reclamation of derelict land can enable more houses to be built quickly, no doubt the local authorities concerned will have this possibility in mind.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the amount of industrial derelict land has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminished? Is his Manchester office, for example, to have anything to do with advising the smaller local authorities technically and making more financial provision for dealing with this problem?

No, not as such, though where land is short, extra land that can be recovered from a derelict state will be eagerly sought after. On the first point, my Department has asked all local authorities to report the amount of derelict land in their areas and the action that they propose for reclamation, in their quinquennial review.

Is the Minister aware that Liverpool has a very big slum problem and that derelict land, which has been standing there since the war finished, is in a completely shocking condition? Will he make arrangements to come to my constituency to look at it for himself, because there are no words that can describe the state of the central area in Liverpool?

I think that the hon. Lady knows that the Government are deeply aware of the need for haste in dealing with the housing problems in the hon. Lady's constituency. As to the first part of her supplementary question, perhaps she will send me details of the land to which she is referring.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what are the provisional figures for June, July and August of this year for the average tender price per square foot for local authority houses.

The average prices per square foot of three bedroom houses in tenders approved during June, July and August were 44s., 43s. 8d. and 45s. 3d. respectively.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that this is getting worse and worse?

I do not think that the increase is as much as would be expected in view of the very considerable increase in wage rates in the same period.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) if he will take steps to grant financial aid to local authorities in order that they may make provision for young married people who cannot obtain accommodation suitable to a home life;

It is not for me to tell local authorities whether they should build for one class of applicants on their waiting lists rather than another. Each authority must settle its own housing priorities, taking account of all needs, including those of newly-weds. All houses approved under the Housing Act, 1961, attract subsidy whatever the purpose for which they are provided.

Despite the rather negative character of that reply, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that I appreciate the letter which he has sent to me on this problem? May I ask whether he has yet reached a decision on the proposal, which has been made from both sides of the House, that he should consult with the local authorities and the building societies with a view to facilitating the deposits and mortgage interest rates for the purchase of houses by newly-weds? Secondly, while recognising that all human needs must be taken into account by local authorities, does he not regard it as important for the future of our nation that as much attention should be paid to young married people as is being paid to older people?

Yes, certainly I do. But the problem in the hon. Gentleman's constituency is likely to be more that of land than either of these issues. His constituency has enough land for the immediate future, but land is far more likely to be a limiting factor than the factors he is discussing.

May I ask my right hon. Friend if his attention has been drawn to a scheme which has been devised and successfully carried out by the Bushy Urban District Council to meet this problem, and, if not, may I send him particulars of it?

Yes, gladly. My hon. Friend's intervention goes to show that it lies within the initiative of local authorities to take considerable steps to help in the sort of problem to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the specific question which I put to him and which he ignored?

Yes, I will, of course. I am not trying to avoid anything. The building societies can lend only the money that they raise, and that has a large effect on the interest charges that they have to apply. Local authorities have power to lend money and, as the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden) shows, many of them have used it extremely constructively.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will study the evidence submitted to him regarding the high rents demanded by a company, whose name has been sent to him, with particular reference to new leases and renewals at Thorncliffe Court, London, S.W.4, with a view to authorising compulsory purchase either of individual units or the whole property.

I have studied the evidence. It is for the local authority to decide whether to make a compulsory purchase order, and submit it to me for confirmation.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would he not agree that many hon. Members on this side of the House have made similar complaints about the activities of this company? Would he not further agree that the Peachey group of companies, while acting within the law, is exploiting the scarcity market and is giving a thoroughly unsavoury name to all good landlords?

I have to preserve a careful impartiality when compulsory purchase orders may be submitted to me, but I would say, seeking to be absolutely impartial, that in some cases tenants appear to be unreasonable in what they expect of their landlords. In the case of these particular landlords, it appears that they are often particularly insensitive in their relations with tenants.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that some of the answers he is giving today are difficult to square with that reputation for impartiality? When the Minister invites local authorities to make compulsory purchase orders they will remember how he has treated some local authorities which have tried to prevent extortion. He has laid down the doctrine that the landlord is entitled to push up a rent according to the income of the tenant so that, when he has done that, the high rent which that landlord charges may be used as an excuse for neighbouring landlords to charge the same high rent.

The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting what I have said. I was replying to a question on the use I have made of my power to confirm a compulsory purchase order. In this field, compulsory purchase orders have been confirmed where there is an exorbitant rent and the threat of homelessness. Obviously, in judging whether there is a threat of homelessness, the capacity of tenants to find other accommodation within their means in a neighbouring area must be taken into account.

Does not the Minister recall that he told us that private landlords may certainly pay some regard to the means of their tenants in fixing rents? In this connection, to what extent does the right hon. Gentleman think that a landlord is entitled to take tenants' means into account?

I can best answer that in two stages. Firstly, I think that I was referring—and I hope that I was careful to refer—not to the landlord's attitude primarily but to my attitude in deciding whether to confirm a compulsory purchase order. Secondly, where a landlord has property in a scarcity area and is dealing with tenants who wish to live in an area where property of that sort is scarce, he must assume that the tenants draw an implication of the rent they will have to pay.

Is the Minister saying that a private landlord should not take into account a tenant's means when he is fixing the economic rent for the property which he proposes to let?

The landlord will take into account the market value of the property in the neighbourhood. I hope that he will also take into account, when moving from the distorted rent situation of a controlled market into a free market, giving his tenants, where they need it, time of transition in which to adjust.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is his estimate of the number of London homeless people; and how many are immigrants.

I am informed by the London County Council that on 3rd November it had in its care 1,014 homeless families, representing 4,724 persons. The Council does not keep records showing the countries of origin of homeless families, but its special report on homelessness published earlier this year showed that in 1961 about 30 per cent. of the wives were born abroad.

In view of the repeated and strong representations made in the House, especially by London Members on behalf of the London homeless, may I ask whether it is not unfair to London people to allow further immigration into this city until our own people are properly housed?

The movement of population, whether from abroad or in this country, obviously adds to the housing problem in the centres of attraction, such as London, but there is a substantial housing problem in London quite apart from that.

Will the right hon. Gentleman always bear in mind that these people are human beings, no matter what their colour or race? Could he not do something to persuade his hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) not to continue this sort of persecution which is absolutely out of keeping with the Christian philosophy which he often professes?

My hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) is as sincere in his concern for the housing of the people as is the hon. Lady.

In view of the acknowledged difficulties in London of housing the people of London, will my right hon. Friend use his influence to see first that English people in their own country have the first chance?

Will the Minister bear in mind that inquiry has shown that it is no good trying to muddle study of the homeless problem in London by bringing in the immigrant question? Will he bear in mind that the immigrant population help to keep the hospitals of London open, and help to run the city's transport and to build its houses and that the people who do that work have got to live somewhere, whether the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) likes them or not?

The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) never speaks for Londoners.

The hon. Member is never here when I do.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what representations he has received from residents of the Hampstead Garden Suburb who are concerned about interference with the original character of the suburb owing to a change in ownership; and whether he will give an assurance that he will not allow any alterations which affect the structure of buildings or open spaces against the wishes of residents.

I have received no formal representations from residents of Hampstead Garden Suburb though two of the local bodies have had an informal discussion with my Department on the question of a Private Bill. Applications to develop land are a matter for the local planning authority in the first instance and on the information before me I see no reason to intervene.

Is not the right Gentleman the supreme planning authority in this country? In view of the anxiety expressed by a very large body of residents in this suburb about the interference with the amenities and the character of the suburb, may I ask whether it is not desirable that the right hon. Gentleman should take note of what is happening? Would he make some inquiries into the matter?

I should be glad to have any evidence that the right hon. Gentleman cares to send me. I know that there is anxiety but I am not aware of evidence of any occurrences to justify it, and I have complete confidence in the ability of the local authority to handle it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what was the nature of his reply to the resolutions sent to him by the representatives of eighteen north-west county borough and borough councils asking for housing loans at 3 per cent. interest and for a review of housing subsidies.

I have told these authorities that the Government cannot accept the view that housing loans should be made available at a specially low rate of interest. I have also reminded them that they are already receiving large sums by way of Exchequer subsidies and that by pooling their subsidies, and adopting realistic rent policies, they should be able to continue building without having to charge rents beyond what their tenants can reasonably be asked to pay.

Is it not ridiculous that throughout the country the more houses councils build the more unpopular they become? Does not this result from the fact that the Government's high interest rates are forcing these councils almost yearly to raise rents and rates to cover about £60 a year deficiency for sixty years on each house they build?

If councils choose to be unpopular with the ratepayers in order to be popular with their tenants, by charging less than a reasonable rent, that is their own affair.