asked the Secretary of State for War if he has yet taken a decision on the reorganisation of the Infantry.

Yes, Sir. I have now received the Bower Committee's Report and, after considering this question very fully, I have concluded that there is no requirement for any further radical reorganisation of the Infantry.

Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that this move will in no way reduce the number of Battalions in the British Army? Further, can he say whether it will have any effect on the identity of the present Battalions?

The move that I have announced does not constitute a cutting in any way, but the Infantry will now be in a stronger position to meet any minor reductions which might have to take place in the future.

Since the Minister has come to a decision about reorganisation of the Infantry, may I ask him whether he has made up his mind about the rôle to be played by the Gurkha Battalions? Do they fit into this new scheme of reorganisation?

No, Sir. That is a wider question. The Gurkha do not fit into the announcement that I have made today, which purely concerns United Kingdom infantry of the line. It does not have anything to do with the Brigade of Gurkha. Later, the overall size of the Army will have something to do with the retention of the Gurkhas.

Will my right hon Friend deal with the part of my supplementary question in which I asked him to give an assurance that there will be no change of identity in the present Battalions?

Within Battalions, yes.

Will this have any effeot on the size of the Battalion itself?

No, Sir. This is concerned purely with the grouping organisation, and it is being done because I am sure that the forward-looking concept of the Infantry organisation is that of the Large Infantry Regiment.

asked the Secretary of State for War what approximate proportion of the training time of British troops in Aden is spent on mountain warfare and desert warfare, respectively.

Troops in Aden carry out about 60 per cent. of their training in mountainous country and 40 per cent. in desert conditions.

Since the leader of the republican movement in the Yemen has openly invited the Adeni people to rebel, will my hon. Friend get the training programme balanced in order to leave no shadow of doubt that we intend to maintain our position in Aden?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will consider posting some Gurkha troops to Aden.

No. Sir, not at present. The Brigade of Gurkhas is at the moment fully deployed in other theatres.

In thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask him to bear in mind that this type of test is very suitable for them? If it comes to a question of running down the Brigade, will he please consider this place as a special one for employing them?

We should not feel debarred from using Gurkhas in Aden if the need arose. At the moment, the point I am making is that they are more usefully employed elsewhere.

asked the Secretary of State for War how many of the staff at the Armament Research and Development Establishment, Fort Halstead, were, respectively, fully and partly engaged on work connected with Blue Water at the time of its abandonment; and how many of these are still working in the establishment.

Forty-seven staff were employed full-time, with part-time staff equivalent to three more full-time staff. They are all still employed in the establishment.

Remembering that Blue Water was cancelled as an economy measure and while we are very glad that the individuals concerned are still employed, does my hon. Friend recognise how disheartening it is to workers in the defence industry that when economies come to be made the axe falls wholly upon them and not at all upon those in Government establishments?

I see the point made by my hon. Friend, but the answer is that A.R.D.E. is a research and not a production establishment. The underlying principles of the research carried out there, in which these people have been engaged, are not by any means exclusive to Blue Water.

Would my hon. Friend agree that that explanation is simply an extract from Parkinson's Law?

No, Sir. The work which those people are doing is immensely valuable, and the effect of their transfer to this work will be to get it done quicker. This, in turn, will be of value to the defence effort.

asked the Secretary of State for War the pay of a junior leader on entry; what charges these other ranks are required to pay for non-Service clothes, such as jeans, shirts and basketball boots; and if he will provide these items free for orphans from large poor families.

A junior leader on entry is paid 6s. 6d. a day. This will go up to 7s. in April of next year. The Army supplies a boy with all the clothing he needs. If he wishes to wear civilian clothes off duty he would buy them privately and I am therefore unable to say what he would pay for them. I regret that my right hon. Friend is not able to provide items of civilian clothing from Army funds for wear off duty.

Why does not the Army treat the eldest son of a widow who has four young children, who is entirely dependent upon National Insurance allowances, who has to go out to work—[Interruption.] I will put this question, subject to any ruling from Mr. Speaker, without interruption from hon. Members opposite, who do not want to help poor widows. This widow is entirely dependent on National Insurance allowances and has to go out to work school-cleaning from 6 to 8 in the morning and from 4 till 6 at night in order to earn sufficient money for food. Why does not the Army treat this boy in the same way as the local education authority would treat him and pay for this off-duty clothing instead of taking money away from him when he requires all the money he can get to send home to his mother for the financial assistance of herself and four young children?

I know the case that the hon. and gallant Member has in mind, and 1 owe him another letter about it in reply to his last one to me. The position of a widowed mother in these circumstances could be a Government responsibility as regards any help which she might deserve from public funds, but it is not my responsibility. We supply these boys with the clothing they need on duty. We make arrangements to help them to buy and pay for other clothing that they may need, but we cannot go further than providing from public funds what is necessary for them to discharge their duty as soldiers.

asked the Secretary of State for War the last year in which privates were awarded pensions on the 1919 scale, after 21 years' service; what was the basic pension at that time; what increase has since been paid to privates who left in that year; and what pension is now being paid to them.

To have been awarded a basic pension on the 1919 scale for 21 years' service, which amounted to 18s. 4½d. a week, a soldier must have been discharged not later than 1940. All these pensioners will by now be over the age of 60: with the age additions granted under the 1919 code and increases under the Pensions (Increase) Warrants of 1944–47, 1952, 1956 and 1959, they will now be receiving £2 6s. 10d. a week, or £2 1ls. 0d. a week if they last enlisted before 10th October, 1925, and are now over the age of 65. These pensions will be further increased following the passage of the new Pensions (Increase) Bill.

Will the Secretary of State discuss with the Minister of Defence the question of increasing the basic 1919 pensions, observing that privates pensioned at the age of 40 have to wait twenty years for their 60 years' increase compared with a much shorter period in the public services, and observing that many privates who served in the Second World War have received no increase in their pensions and are drawing pensions of only £1 a week plus, which is the scale established over forty years ago after the First World War, and that in spite of the figures that the Secretary of State continually gives, Army pensioners are still being paid to two decimal points—:53—of a penny?

I have referred to the increases in these pensions which have been given in the past, and there will shortly be another increase, which will give us an opportunity——

Not until they are 60.

—of debating the points which the hon. and gallant Member has raised. In general, however, we must stand on the principle that we cannot adjust retrospectively the terms of service which give rise to a particular pension.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will take criminal proceedings against the Evening Standard and its political correspondent for referring to an alleged discrepancy in a War Office dispatch about the Battle of Alam Haifa as a political forgery.

No, Sir.

Does not the Secretary of State regard a charge of this kind—one of political forgery directed against the War Office—as extremely improper and grave? Does he propose to take no action at all, not even reporting it to the Press Council? Is it not time that some of these Press people were put in their place and not allowed to make charges which they cannot substantiate?

It is rather difficult for me. It was because I felt that the reported statement by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) that on the face of it this was political forgery was so unjustifiably damaging to those who were responsible for the Army at the time that I took the very unusual step of publishing part of Field Marshal Alexander's dispatches. It seems to me that if there is any question here of improper libel, it would be one between the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) and the right hon. Member for Smethwick and the Evening Standard, for none of which, thank heavens, I am responsible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when a newspaper has attacked me, I have repeatedly declared that the last thing I would do was to sue it for libel? The only occasion on which I would sue newspapers for libel was when they stopped talking about me.

asked the Secretary of State for War why Gunner W. J. Gordon was not wearing a life jacket when he was drowned.

I regret to say that Gunner Gordon removed his life jacket after he had been told to wear it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the family of Gunner Gordon are still not satisfied with the facts as disclosed? Is there any other procedure which can be pressed upon my right hon. Friend to take this matter further other than the board of inquiry, which has already sat?

I understand my hon. Friend's anxiety in this case. I can only tell him that the officer in charge checked that all members of the party were wearing life jackets when the canoe set out. Gunner Gordon asked whether he need wear a life jacket and was told that he must. The life jackets were being worn under a loose waterproof smock. That was why the officer did not realise that Gordon had subsequently taken off his life jacket.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, according to the Army statement, Gunner Gordon was the only man in the troop who asked whether he should wear a life jacket; secondly, that he was the only man in the troop who took his life jacket off; and thirdly, that he is the only man in the troop who is not alive today to tell a different story?

I can only give my hon. Friend the facts of the case. I have given them to him as clearly and as fully as I can. I am sure that the officer in charge acted quite properly and that if Gunner Gordon had obeyed the instructions—which, of course, he did to begin with—there would not have been this tragic accident.

asked the Secretary of State for War what orders for Trojan armoured personnel carriers he has authorised; what were the dates on which such authorisations were given; on what dates the orders so authorised were placed with the manufacturers; and what are the expected delivery dates.

The decision to place a production order for over 1,000 of these vehicles was taken in August. Negotiations concerned with the allocation of the main contract have since been in progress and the contract is now about to be placed. I am afraid that the estimates as between the Ordnance Factories and industry leave me with no alternative but to place the whole order with industry. I expect delivery of the first vehicles early in 1964.

With regard to the delays in this matter, will the utmost speed now be shown to ensure that the Army has adequate numbers of these vehicles at the earliest possible opportunity? Since the right hon. Gentleman is talking about as far back as March this year, if he has had encouraging reports from the field about these carriers, will the utmost speed be now shown?

Yes, certainly. We have been showing the utmost speed the whole way through. I think the hon. Gentleman will realise, when he considers the Answer I have just given, that I was not anxious to depart from the preferred source policy and it was this important decision, to try to see whether the thing could be shared, which has been responsible for some delay, and, of course, everything will be done now to speed things up.

asked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to provide the Army with a substitute for the Bofors light anti-aircraft gun; and when the Army will receive the 105 mm. gun that is to replace the 25 pounder.

The latest version of the Bofors gun now in service has electronic fire control equipment and will be effective against most aircraft, both by day and night, for some years to come. We are considering what is to replace it but it is too early yet for me to indicate its successor. Deliveries of the self-propelled 105 mm. gun, Abbot, are expected to begin in about two years' time.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement on the circumstances in which a Women's Royal Army Corps private, of whom details have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Brixton, was transferred from Hounslow Barracks.

Following certain allegations of unnatural friendships, an inquiry was held into the conduct of some of the W.R.A.C.s at Hounslow. One girl who gave evidence at the inquiry felt that her position there would be difficult and consequently arrangements were made for her to be posted elsewhere.

Is it not most unfair that the victim of improper overtures should be discharged or posted away—I understand there are more than one of them—while abnormal characters seem to be kept on? Are parents going to allow their daughters to join the Women's Royal Army Corps, a very fine branch of the Service, if behaviour of this kind even seems to be condoned?

I am glad the hon. Gentleman has paid tribute to this Corps, because it thoroughly deserves it. His facts are not quite right. In fact, the young lady I have just referred to in my Answer was not discharged. She was posted to another station, and that was done in her own interests, and I am sure it was the right thing to do. It was as a result of this very isolated incident that eight girls were discharged from Her Majesty's Service as being of no further value to Her Majesty. All these girls were girls who were implicated. As a result of the full inquiry they were found to have been implicated in this incident, and there was no question of innocent girls having been retired from the Service or of any of the girls who were guilty being allowed to remain.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the need of owners and workers in British shipyards of detailed knowledge of the procedure to be adopted by them in application to Her Majesty's Government for grants and loans under the legislation relating to the building of fishing vessels; and if he will now issue a detailed statement of that procedure and of the principles which Her Majesty's Government will apply in deciding between British and foreign shipyards in granting or refusing such grants and loans.

These grants and loans are made by the White Fish Authority and the Herring Industry Board to the owners of the fishing vessels who are fully informed by them of the procedure for making applications. The main considerations are set out in the Schemes governing Grants for Fishing Vessels approved by this House on 16th July last.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that that is a very unsatisfactory answer, that the procedure which he indicates does nothing to resolve or alleviate the gravely increasing unemployment in British shipyards and is in contradiction to the many promises made by various Ministers to tackle this problem in a practical way so that during the coming winter there will not be this increasing unemployment?

These arrangements are calculated to give British shipyards a full and fair opportunity to tender.

But surely, in view of the present position in British shipyards, the Under-Secretary is not going to say some preference ought not to be given to British yards over foreign shipyards? Secondly, in view of the fact that the White Fish Authority some eighteen months ago decided that no more grants or loans be granted for this purpose, can the hon. Gentleman say whether that rule has been broken, with a view to placing no orders at all?

On the second point, that has not been in my knowledge. On the point of competitive tenders from British yards, experience of the deep water fleet, where there has been no element of grant, over a considerable period of time has shown that British yards have succeeded in getting a considerable proportion of the tenders.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Guest Committee on Licensing was appointed; and when it is likely to submit its Second Report dealing with the sale of excisable liquor in areas of housing development and redevelopment.

Lord Guest's Committee was appointed on 13th August, 1959, and submitted its First Report on 20th October, 1960. I understand that it hopes to be in a position to submit its Second Report, covering the outstanding items of its remit, early in 1963.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the question of permitting licensed premises on housing estates is not a very complicated or complex subject? I personally do not understand why the Committee should take almost three years to deliberate on this very simple subject. What steps does the Minister propose to take to expedite the Report?

The hon. Gentleman may be aware that the second part of the remit covered the constitution of licensing courts as well as the point to which he referred. The Committee, I am informed, had 11 meetings before giving its first and very useful Report. It has had 14 meetings on the second part of the remit. I think it is pressing on with all reasonable effort to achieve its job.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Reid Committee on Conveyancing and Registration of Title to Land was appointed; and when it is likely to submit its Report.

The Committee was appointed in September, 1959. My right hon. Friend expects to receive its Report before the end of the year.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that the law on conveyancing and registration in Scotland is out-moded and is causing considerable hardship to those who desire to purchase houses? Has he consulted the Chairman as to when the Report is likely to be submitted?

Yes. I think the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this, at any rate, is a complex subject, and, as I told him in reply to his Question, my right hon. Friend expects the Report before the end of this year.

But is not the hon. Gentleman aware that, whether these reports are on matters which are complex or otherwise, apparently the rule seems to be that they must not take less than three years? Cannot he take some steps to speed up these reports, which are so important to the people of Scotland?

I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but reports of this kind, involving busy professional people, normally take, I am advised, something like two years. In this particular case, with intricate problems involved, it has taken three.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will investigate the effect of high legal charges on attracting new industry to Scotland; and if he will introduce legislation to ensure that Scottish conveyancing charges are no higher than elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

Legal charges are such a small element in the cost of setting up a new firm that I do not feel any useful purpose would be served by an investigation. As regards the second part of the Question, my right hon. Friend is awaiting the Report of the Reid Committee on Registration of Title to Land in Scotland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the President of the Board of Trade visited Scotland in the summer a number of smaller firms seeking grants under the Local Employment Act indicated that the conveyancing charges were an obstacle to them? In the light of that, will he not look a little further at this. especially when the Report of the Reid Committee finally, at long last, reaches him?

Perhaps it would be better if we looked at this after receiving the Report from the Reid Committee.

Declaring an interest in this matter, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that Scottish solicitors wish they could charge half what English solicitors do?

Does not the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's reply show how important it is to Scotland that it should have this Report very soon, and in view of his answer to this Question, will he now consult the Reid Committee as to when we can expect its Report?

We are really not very far away from the end of the year now—it is a matter of six or seven weeks—and I have already told the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) that my right hon. Friend expects the Report before the end of the year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what is the average delay between the date of planning appeals and the holding of inquiries concerning property in Scotland;

The average for planning appeals is 35 weeks, and for compulsory purchase and similar orders 33 weeks. This average is heavily weighted by a limited number of cases which, for special reasons, take an exceptionally long time.

Will my hon. Friend not agree that such an average delay, which is very much worse than anything we have heard of in England, is today a very serious matter and can hold up most important projects connected with industry and housing and schools and lots of other things, and will he take steps to increase the number of reporters, if that is the cause of the trouble, either by paying members of the Bar increased fees [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."]—or will he consider the further use of retired civil servants who have in many cases a great deal of administrative experience of this sort of thing and are extremely capable and are very often living on very small pensions?

I should certainly like to see these delays drastically reduced, but while I could not go so far as to say there is never any delay before the reporter fits in a particular case, I am satisfied that it is not normal for this to cause the delay.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that these delays are quite disgraceful and, in certain cases, affect the supply of electricity to industry in Scotland and are likely to cause very serious damage? Instead of accepting his hon. Friend's plea to increase the fees of these advocates, who do this apparently as a spare time job, would the hon. Gentleman consider suggesting that they might have a penalty on their fees if they do not produce reports in a reasonable time?

Answer!

Surely my hon. Friend is entitled to an answer? There is a feeling in Scotland that far too many people engaged in the law are so busy in other directions that they regard this as a spare time occupation. If this is so, I should like to know what steps the Scottish Office proposes to take to put the matter right.

Normally, the reporters in planning appeals are not members of the Bar. As I tried to explain in my previous answer, the delay is not normally caused through the reporter. It is very much more normal for the delay to be caused through the need to await the observations of local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has studied the recommendation made in the Report of the Committee on the Generation and Distribution of Electricity in Scotland, Command Paper No. 1859, that one electricity board for the whole of Scotland should be established to replace the two existing boards for the north and south of Scotland, respectively; and if he will make a statement indicating his plans arising from this in relation to trade, industry, commerce and employment in the north of Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the policy of the Government in the light of the recommendations of the Mackenzie Committee on Scottish electricity development.

I cannot at present add to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) on 7th November.

Is it the Government's intention to implement the Mackenzie Report and, in the event of its being implemented, can the hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that the North of Scotland, and particularly the North-East, will not be further deprived of trade, industry, commerce and employment, and that the Government will not continue the damaging and horrible work begun by the clearances years ago?

I am fully alive to the need for an early decision being taken by the Government, but I must also bear in mind the need for careful examination of the issues involved.

In coming to a decision on the question of merger, will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is considerable concern and suspicion about this proposal not only in the Highlands but even in a lowlands city like Dundee——

And Aberdeen.

—which has been well served by the board? In the meantime, will he allow the Hydro-Electric Board to get ahead with its developments without delay, for, whatever the Committee may recommend, there is clearly ample scope for further hydro-electric development in Scotland?

With regard to the second part of the supplementary question, at this stage that is a matter for the Board but we shall take into account all the factors and the matters arising from the Report.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications have been submitted under the Local Employment Act for assistance under Section 5; how many have been approved; how many have been completed; and what was the total sum granted.

Twenty applications have been submitted, of which 13 have so far been approved for grants totalling £123,000. Four others are under consideration. Work on two schemes is complete.

Surely this is a sorrowful story of dither and delay, and very little has, in fact, been done. Would not the Minister agree that more initiative is required from his Department to try to get local authorities to appreciate that many of these schemes should be carried through if we are to bring industry to Scotland, and that it is important that suitable sites should be available, together with water and other facilities?

The initiative here lies with the local authorities, and I should be very glad to consider more applications for these grants.

But only two schemes have been completed. Why is this? Surely the delay is caused by the Department?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will understand that many of these schemes involve large earth-moving works, and these take a considerable amount of time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking fully to inform local authority councillors in Scotland of the desirability of maintaining adequate fluoridation of water supplies.

Copies of the Report of the Conduct of the Fluoridation Studies in the United Kingdom were sent in July to each local health authority in Scotland. This should enable the local authorities to reach an informed view on this matter.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this matter is going by default because, in the case of the Kilmarnock Town Council, inadequate information was presented and the councillors were misinformed? Will he circulate the information from the Standing Advisory Dental Committee to all local councillors in Scotland so that we may have a proper presentation of the case?

I will certainly consider that point.

Can the hon. Gentleman give us some information as to the cost of fluoridation—for example, the cost to an average town of 100,000 population?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the amount of subsidy which will be paid for each approved house for each local authority provided under Section 3 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1962, for the year ended 1st November, 1962.

None of the houses completed in the year ended 31st October, 1962, has ranked for subsidy under Section 3. All have ranked for subsidy under earlier legislation, except for 32 houses ranking under provisions of the 1962 Act other than Section 3.

The sting is in the tail of the hon. Gentleman's reply. He will be aware that the subsidy provisions of the 1962 Housing Act are retrospective in their application to 1st November, 1961. It is astonishing that he cannot give me a clear picture of the number of houses completed since 1st November last year and so tell us the actual number of authorities which are receiving the lower subsidy figure.

It is true, as the hon. Gentleman says, that it is only houses for which tenders have been received since 1st November, 1961, which qualify for subsidy under the 1962 Act, but so far no houses have been completed and, therefore, I am unable to answer his question.

Mr. Manuel.

I could tell the hon Gentleman of many houses——

The hon. Gentleman cannot tell the Minister anything now. This is time for Questions.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Did you call me for the next Question or on Question No. 23?

I called the hon. Gentleman without specifying, which left him at liberty to ask a supplementary question, but he then did not ask a question at all and so I was obliged to intervene.

My recollection is that I said "Could I tell the hon. Gentleman".

I am afraid that that is an interrogatory form which does not Impress me. Perhaps we had better get on to the next Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many flood prevention schemes have been carried out under the provisions of the Flood Prevention (Scotland) Act, 1961.

One scheme is under construction and nine authorities are known to have proposals under consideration.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have had recurring —'[HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"] Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in many areas in Scotland we have had recurring and serious flooding, and that there does not seem to be the progress that was anticipated by the Government when the Act was passed? Does the hon. Gentleman intend to take any steps to obviate such recurrences and prevent the loss and damage to property which takes place every winter?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows that a flood prevention scheme necessarily takes some time to prepare and that other interests have to be consulted. We know that nine local authorities have this matter under consideration at the present time.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us which local authorities are involved?

I could, but it would take some time. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied if I send him a note about the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has given to the recommendation of the Mackenzie Committee that a new coal-fired electricity generating station should be constructed in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

The Mackenzie Committee concluded that, if the price is competitive, there could be a major new coal-fired station in addition to the coal-fired station already approved for construction at Cockenzie. The South of Scotland Electricity Board has recently appointed consulting engineers to prepare a report on the problems in- volved in providing the additional generating, capacity that will be needed after the Cockenzie station is completed in 1968.

Will the Minister prevail upon his right hon. Friend to authorise the construction of this new power station, because it could mean the difference between thousands of miners being employed, as against their being unemployed? Will he also consider the fact that we are expecting new industries coming to Scotland, and that when we get them we shall need much more electricity than we have at the moment? In these circumstances, will the Minister go into the question again and authorise the construction of this coal-fired power station?

I am aware of the importance of this decision to the coal industry in Scotland. I am keeping in touch with the Electricity Board on the matter, but the next step is for the board to consider the report of its consultants, once this is available.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if a decision on this matter is delayed too long there will be no possibility of going ahead with the coal-fired power stations in Scotland, because the pits which otherwise would supply the coal will have been closed, not because there is no coal there—there is enough coal there to take them well beyond the end of the century—but because the market will not be there? Will he see that all these considerations are taken into account at a very early date and see if he can reach a decision on this matter?

Certainly. The Electricity Board is in touch with the National Coal Board on this matter, and, further, I must inform the hon. Gentleman that the Electricity Board expects its consultants' report early next year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will give a general direction to the Scottish Electricity Boards to formulate a longterm programme for electricity production and a forecast of the coal required, in order that the local authorities in Scotland and the National Coal Board can plan with knowledge of future prospects.

The boards already plan their electricity programmes as far ahead as is practicable, bearing in mind the Changes in demand and development in techniques that are taking place.

As the Secretary of State of Scotland is responsible for electricity and is also responsible for housing and the general work of the local authorities, does he exercise any control in bringing all these people concerned together with the National Coal Board to see that there is a comprehensive programme which everybody understands and which gives some sense of continuity to the future of Scotland? Does he realise that it is uncertainty that is helping to create difficulties in developing industry and other things in Scotland?

At the present time, the boards are forecasting their requirements seven years ahead. There is consultation between the board, the local authorities and so on, and I think that, taking into account the difficulty of assessing demand ahead by more than seven years, this is a fairly reasonable period.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will seek power to impose restrictions on foreign fishing vessels landing their catch in Scottish ports when they are in possession of nets with a mesh smaller than international convention permits.

No, Sir. The presence on board a vessel of nets having meshes below the minimum sizes prescribed in the International Convention is not proof of a contravention of the Convention, since it permits the carriage and use of such nets by vessels fishing for certain species of fish such as herring and sand eels.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a matter of constant irritation to the fishermen in our own ports? Is he further aware that, in the interests of the industry as a whole, we cannot be too strict on the way in which we enforce the conservation of fish stocks?

I appreciate that there has been anixety about this, but I can only say that we are continuing to do all we can through the permanent Commission to ensure the proper enforcement of the Convention by all the Governments concerned.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is time that the International Convention was tightened up in such a way as to protect the Scottish fishing industry?

I understand that there is a still further Convention, the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Convention, which will soon come into operation and will give us further power to tighten up.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether a new general manager has yet been appointed for East Kilbride Development Corporation; and what qualifications are expected of the successful applicant.

This appointment was announced on 10th November by the Corporation, with whom the full responsibility rests.

While recognising the hon. Gentleman's limitations in this matter, may I ask if he is aware that the gentleman appointed to this post is a civil servant in Kenya, where he has been employed for most of his career, and that he has no housing qualifications whatsoever? In view of the fact that a great deal of public money is engaged in this development, does he not think it right that at least he should make inquiries about this appointment in order to make sure that civil servants are not to be presented with jobs like this simply because they are to be displaced from their existing employment?

This is a Development Corporation appointment, and I do not think that it is for me to express a view about the choice it has made. I think it should be understood that the general manager is an administrative and not a technical official. and that he is assisted by the Corporation's chief officers, who have specialist technical responsibilities.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there is far more to it than he has indicated—that far more falls to the general manager than he has detailed? In view of the importance of the matter and the concern which it has caused particularly in Scotland amongst those Scotsmen who are interested in jobs of this kind—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] —Yes, of course, many Scotsmen are interested in these appointments—surely, it is a matter for inquiry when an individual can be brought from so far away as Kenya for this job, and when we have applicants and men with qualifications in Scotland?

We are not responsible for this new town corporation. It has the responsibility for administration and management, and I do not think it is for my right hon. Friend to make his observations.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will initiate a scheme for the quality testing of drugs similar to that of the Ministry of Health.

My right hon. Friend is about to seek the views of the chemists and those of the other bodies concerned on a model drug-testing scheme which would be suitable for operation by the Executive Councils in Scotland. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, this proposal is not connected in any way with the testing of new products such as thalidomide.

Will the Minister give an assurance that it will not take as long to set up this arrangement as it did in the case of the Reid Report?

We shall be as quick as we can.

Has the attention of the hon. Gentleman been drawn to the charges of great misuse of drugs because doctors do not keep themselves acquainted with the proper use of antibiotics and these other new ancillaries to health? Can he give some assurance that in the National Health Service this education will be spread amongst doctors, who will be advised how to use these instruments?

That is another question. The object of this operation is to ensure that what is prescribed is properly dispensed.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the average annual case load of a domiciliary midwife in the County of Lanark, and the range by which such case loads vary in different parts of the county.

The average case load is 55 to 60. I am informed that the case loads of midwives employed by the county council on a contract of service range from about 40 to about 100. There are in addition four midwives working on a fee-per-case basis, and one of these is understood to have a case load of about 120.

In view of the fact that the average given for 1961 is 42, is it not scandalous that one of these midwives should be carrying as many as 120 cases? Is not this something which indicates how badly off the County of Lanark is in this respect? Will the hon. Gentleman now look at it again and see what he can do to help Lanarkshire to meet this difficulty?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Lanarkshire is suffering special difficulties in this matter, and we will certainly do everything we can to assist the county council, with which the primary responsibility rests.

Will the hon. Gentleman remember that it has been pointed out that 55 cases are as many as any midwife should be expected to carry in this respect, and that here we have a case of 120? Surely, this is absurd?

I agree that the Scottish average on the whole is considerably below the Lanarkshire average. There are exceptional cases in Lanarkshire which cause all concern.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many U-2 aircraft he has agreed with the United States Government should be stationed in Great Britain; to what extent their flights are controlled by Great Britain; and when they will cease to be stationed here.

Three U-2 aircraft. We have further agreed that these aircraft may carry out flights over international waters in the North Atlantic area for the purpose of atmospheric sampling and weather research. The flights are notified to the appropriate Air Traffic Control authorities. The aircraft will remain in this country until their programme is finished; and this will depend in large measure on the ending of the present series of Soviet nuclear tests in the atmosphere.

In view of the three international incidents caused this year by U-2 aircraft flying over Russian territory, not to mention the Captain Powers affair, would it not be wiser to end these flights from British bases altogether?

No, Sir. I think that they are carrying out extremely useful research, and that research will continue until the Soviet nuclear test programme in the atmosphere ceases.

Is the right hon. Gentleman's Department fully informed about all these patrols, particularly the flight paths?

Yes, Sir. I have examined the flight patterns myself.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many radiation detection posts have now been built; whether the programme is now complete; to what extent they are manned; and if he will make a statement.

1,250 of these underground posts have been built and 150 are under construction. Contracts for the final 100 posts will be let shortly. The posts would be manned by the Royal Observer Corps in an emergency.

Mr. Mason.

rose—[Interruption.]

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it not be possible to lengthen the third back bench opposite in order to accommodate displaced Ministers?

Not in the middle of Question Time.

Can the Secretary of State for Air inform the House what will be the eventual total cost of this programme and whether we are using the radiation network at the moment for assessing fallout from American and Russian tests?

The total cost will be about £2¼ million, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, these stations would only assess the high degree of fall-out which would result from atomic attack. The present fall-out from various weapon tests throughout the world can be read only by far finer instruments. If the hon. Gentleman has a question on that aspect, I would ask him to address it to the United Nations or to the Minister for Science here.

asked the Minister of Transport when work is to start on the Chequers roundabout in Dagenham.

We are considering tenders which were received on 31st October, and hope that work will cornmence early next year.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the Bristol City Council has plans for dealing with the acute traffic problems which exist in the city and for bringing the urban road system up to the standard necessary to meet the increasing traffic; and, in view of the fact that further progress to implement these plans cannot be made without his approval, if he will give an indication of his policy in connection with urban roads generally, and Bristol in particular, and give higher priority to grants for this purpose so that the work can be proceeded with immediately.

My right hon. Friend's policy is to help and encourage towns in several ways to meet the growing problem of traffic congestion. These include road improvements, so far as is desirable and also practicable within the funds available. Bristol is doing conspicuously well in the current programme. We are in touch with the city council about its future road plans, but many of them have yet to be submitted as amendments to the development plan. When firm proposals are put to my right hon. Friend he will consider what assistance he can give.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that traffic on our urban roads has thrown up very large difficulties similar to those on country roads, and that it is necessary to spend money on those roads? Is he aware that my authority has prepared plans involving expenditure of £6 million a year but is waiting for the Minister to give his sanction? Will he give priority to schemes for the open roads both in country and in town?

Schemes at present with a total cost of some £5 million are included in the programme for Bristol between 1961 and 1964. We shall consider any further schemes for grant when they are submitted.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that, at this rate, it will be the year 2000 before such roads are ready for traffic?

The programme for Bristol has to be spread over some time, and we cannot approve new schemes until we are satisfied that they are justified.

asked the Minister of Transport when the experiment with remotely controlled illuminated signs will be started; and on which lengths of motorway it will be carried out.

The design of the necessary equipment for this experiment is proving more difficult than expected. This may delay the start. Approval of the experiment must await preparation of detailed estimates of cost, but subject to this, we are hoping, to try out the signs on the 28 miles of the M.5 between Twyning and Lydiate Ash.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind the importance of having this experiment on the M.1 because of the heavy traffic and the prevailing weather conditions, such as fog? The Minister promised in summer to consider putting this in operation on the M.1.

The M.5 was selected because it so happens that its 28 miles are all within the jurisdiction of Worcestershire County Police, who will thus be able to control the whole scheme.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the uncertainty created by the Rochdale Committee's report on docks referring to the closing of Barry Docks is preventing industrialists, who desire to do so, from extending their premises and is stopping others from considering, the establishment of new industries in the port; and if he will take steps to prevent any further deterioration in the position by giving an assurance that it is not his intention to close this port.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave to a Question on this subject by the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) on 7th November, 1962, of which I am sending him a copy.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the town in which I live depends mainly upon its docks? The local authority is responsible for the town but was not consulted in any way by the Rochdale Committee. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Rochdale Report has already damaged the town's trade? People will not come in with new industries, nor will those already there expand because of the threat of the Report. Will he give urgent consideration to this so that all the people concerned there can get on with their jobs?

The Government have invited comments of representatives of the bodies concerned. Not all are available yet, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government will form their conclusions on the recommendations of the Report as soon as possible and hope to make a statement thereafter.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that, in the last year or two, tremendous progress has been made in establishing new industries near the docks at Barry? Is he further aware that the mere publication of this Report, even if it is never implemented, is having a very serious effect on the plans of those industrialists who wish to expand? Will he therefore please, at an early date, say that this Report will not be impdcmcnted?

I am aware of these factors. It is for this reason that I will give the future of Barry the earliest practicable consideration after the Government have reached their decision on the Report's main proposals.

In view of the great importance of the Report to all the ports of the country, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman try to expedite the Government's decision? Does he appreciate that it is important that a decision should be reached before the Minister sets up the new Docks Board under the Transport Act, 1962, for it would appear that, if the Minister follows the Committee's recommendations, there will be no necessity for that Docks Board to be appointed?

I appreciate the point put by the hon. Gentleman, and we are alive to the need for speed. We asked for observations from the interested parties by the end of last month, but they asked for an extension to the end of this month. Our intention is to give our decision on the main proposals at the earliest possible date.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission that they should not introduce economies in meals provided by British Railways.

No, Sir.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the recent action of the British Transport Commission in cutting out fish from railway meals has caused a great deal of discontent amongst fishermen? Dr. Beeching has already made enemies of the railwaymen. Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman approve of his making enemies of the fishermen as well?

I hope that the hon. Member's fears of the effect of this on the fishing industry are exaggerated. But I must point out that changes in the composition or price of meals on restaurant cars is a matter for the Commission, and my right hon. Friend cannot interfere. There is the further point that, although the catering division as a whole made a profit of £750,000 in 1961, the restaurant car service lost over £250,000.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend hear in mind that, although British Railways has reduced the number of courses from four to three, apparently removing the fish course—which has caused great concern to my constituency in Aberdeen—the main course can be either fish or meat? Will he publicise this fact and see also that large portions of fish are served?

If that proves to be correct, I can assure my hon. Friend that we will publicise the fact.

Is it not a fact that British Railways has enough fish in stock to continue serving the public for the next nine months?