asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the Scottish branches of the British Limbless ex-Service Men's Association has made a united effort to build a further necessary home at Crieff in Perthshire to accommodate forty-four severely injured ex-Service men at a cost of £85,000, in addition to the 28,000 surviving limbless ex-Service men already provided for by the Association; and what help in money and otherwise he plans to give the Association in its work.

Yes, Sir. I have no power to help financially, but I should be very glad to consider any request from the Association for any other help it thinks I may be able to give it.

Does not the Secretary of State realise that this is a case in which he would be justified in bringing in a special Bill, especially having regard to the fact that he brings in so many little Bills about fiddle-faddles which are not urgent? Having regard to the noble work which this Association does on behalf of the men to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude for our safety, our liberty and the protection of democracy, will he consider the matter from that aspect?

I have great sympathy with the hon. and learned Member in the last part of his supplementary question, but I have no powers and this is not a matter entirely for me.

Is it not a reflection on our society that it is necessary to look for charitable aid for men who are so severely disabled in the service of their country? Is it not a shame that we cannot find ways whereby as of right these men are cared for?

The Association has already built two of these institutions in England and has not asked for any financial help. I have had no direct approach from the Association for this purpose.

If the right hon. Gentleman says that the Association has not asked for financial help and that even if it did he has no power to give it, is it his intention to take steps to make it possible for him to provide aid?

No, Sir. Not until the need is clearly established and then, as I have said, it is not entirely for me.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to encourage the building of an industrial estate in the Kirkintilloch, Croy and Twechar area.

I have approved the Kirkintilloch Town Development Scheme under which the town council is developing two industrial sites. The industrial facilities provided at Cumbernauld New Town are also within reach of the area.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware 'that Dr. Hugh Gilles, the Convener of Dunbartonshire County Council, informed us that unemployment in the county is 6·8 per cent. and is rising, and that the loss of jobs in the county is not being offset by new jobs? Therefore, in view of the new town and the overspill agreement of Kirkinitilloch with Glasgow, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the construction of a further industrial estate in this area and the building of advance factories?

The question of industrial estates and advance factories is one for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, not for me.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he is making to ensure adequate road transport facilities in areas at present and in the future not served by rail.

The provision of road transport services in areas at present not served by rail is primarily a matter for the road transport industry, but the road programme is steadily improving the roads they use. As regards possible future railway closures, we must first await the outcome of the studies being undertaken by the British Transport Commission.

Will the right hon. Gentleman use all the influence and power he has, if he has any power, to prevent any rail closures until such time as we can be assured that we are not to have parts of Scotland cut off through roads being blocked by excessive snowfalls such as those we have had in the last few weeks?

I should hate to be responsible for the snowfall, but I think the hon. Member was in the House when I gave the assurance to the House that these closures should not take place unless there are adequate facilities for passengers and freight services.

Will the right hon. Gentleman definitely promise the House that upon the reception by the Minister of Transport of Dr. Beeching's economic reappraisal, if it means rail closures in certain parts of Scotland that have roads with passing places only, he will fight within the Cabinet and against the Minister of Transport to see that there shall be no further depopulation of these areas because of the complete severence of transport?

I do not believe that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport is in the least keen to encourage the depopulation of the Highlands and add to the congestion already existing in the South.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that by denationalising road transport to a large extent he took away one of the possible solutions of this problem by which the British Transport Commission would have had the responsibility of supplying transport and deciding according to circumstances which was the better form?

The right hon. Gentleman is not entirely correct, because the Minister of Transport, in approving a closure, has powers to instruct the Commission to run bus services to avoid hardship arising.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland which hospital in Scotland has special facilities for the treatment and training of children severely disabled by thalidomide.

Special provision for children with limb defects is being made at the Princess Margaret Rose Hospital, Edinburgh, and Mearnskirk Hospital, Renfrewshire. The fitting of artificial limbs and the training in their use, will be done in association with surgeons from limb-fitting centres. The smaller number of children who suffer from other varying kinds of disablement will be treated at the hospitals best able to deal with their particular condition.

The Secretary of State said that this provision is being made. Is he not aware that the parents of these children who have been seriously disabled are very worried indeed? Until this provision is made would he give some consideration to these Scottish children, who have suffered because of their mothers taking thalidomide, being treated at the Chailey Heritage Craft School and Hospital where they have had sixty years' experience of dealing with very disabled children? Is not the Secretary of State aware that we have nothing comparable in Scotland to this craft school and hospital in the south of England?

I shall certainly take note of what the hon. Lady suggests. But it is important also to parents that we should press ahead as fast as we can to help with provision in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the centre for the treament of and research into rheumatic diseases will be in operation in Glasgow.

It is expected that the work of reconstructing Baird Street Hospital for this purpose will be completed in the autumn of 1964.

Should not the Secretary of State urge that this hospital should be completed this year? Is he not aware that it is since 1957 that the Western Regional Hospital Board has known about the need for this and that the Board, which caters for over half the population in Scotland in health matters, has no such centre at all in an area where the incidence of all types of rheumatism is very high?

I agree with the hon. Lady that we want to get this operating as soon as possible and there has been some delay in the past. After looking round, it was found that there was no obvious alternative but to try to convert existing buildings, and this has been a difficult and slow process.

Is it not a very considerable time ago that it was decided that the Baird Street clinic in Glasgow should be used? What has caused the delay since the decision to use it?

I am only aware of the difficulties of which I have been told, which is that a very large number of structural alterations are being made within the existing hospital.

asked the Secretary State for Scotland if, in view of the discontent among Scottish farmers about the charges made to them in respect of drugs for veterinary purposes, he will introduce legislation to bring about a reduction.

I am not aware of any general discontent among Scottish farmers about the charges made to them for drugs for veterinary purposes, and I see no grounds for considering the introduction of legislation in this matter.

Where does the Minister live these days?—[HON. MEMBERS: Argyll.]—He is a well-known farmer. Is he not aware of the opinion of Mr. William Young, a former Tory Vice-Convener of the Ayrshire County Council, who has said publicly that these charges are high and utterly ridiculous? Is he going to let the farmers be exploited by the drug people?

Owing to the activities of the hon. Gentleman and many of his friends, I do not spend as much time in Argyll as I should like to. If Mr. William Young wishes to raise this point, he should take it up with the British Veterinary Association, whose responsibility it is.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications for ploughing grant were disallowed for lateness although received before the closing date of the 1961–62 scheme; and what total sum was thereby lost to the applicants.

Applications received before the closing date are not disallowed for lateness, but my hon. Friend is no doubt referring to the applications disallowed because notice of ploughing was not given within twenty-one days of completion as required by the Ploughing Grants (Scotland) Scheme 1961. There were 1,111 applications refused on this account and the sum involved was £82,550.

Can my right hon. Friend say what inconvenience is caused to his Department if applications are received before the closing date of the scheme, although not within twenty-one days of the end of ploughing? Can he also say whether the applications which are rejected will be void far all purposes?

It is not a question of whether it is inconvenient. The payment of these grants outside the requirements of the scheme as laid down by Parliament is extra-statutory and, therefore, I have no say in it. On the second point, once the grant has been disallowed, it is disallowed for all time.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it these grants are to be considered worth while to farmers, as indeed they are, the least farmers can do is to obey the rules set down?

I agree with my hon. Friend and a very large number of farmers did so. It is only 3 per cent. who failed.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, why, in his capacity as landlord of crofts in Caithness, he is rejecting farm workers as tenants While men of means are accepted without competition.

As a landlord, I do not reject farm workers as tenants. I try to select the most suitable and deserving applicant in each case.

It would be interesting to know if any farm worker in Caithness has received the tenancy of a croft owned by the Department of Agriculture. Is it not well known that the sole reason that these experienced and skilful men are unable to get land to work on their own account is that crofts are being sold for cash, and is not that fact admitted by the Crofters' Commission?

I can only tell my hon. Friend what has happened to the crofts within my own responsibility. In the last six years, six have been re-let by my Department of which three were let to crofters, one to a crofter's son, one to a farmer's son and one to a small farmer seeking a larger place.

Can my right hon. Friend say for what sums they were sold and whether the land was separated from the house in any of these instances?

That is a different question, but I shall try to give my hon. Friend the answer if he will put it down.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for altering the existing formula for apportionment to local authorities of the aggregate amount of general grants.

If the provisions in the Bill, which no doubt the hon. Member has in mind, become law, I expect from time to time to invite Parliament to approve proposals for amending the formula for distributing the aggregate amount of general grant.

In view of the fact that it is generally understood that the right hon. Gentleman already knows the changes that he wants to make in the method of distributing this general grant, does he not think that it would be fair to Scottish Members to place these before the House before we pass this part of the Bill?

No, Sir. I do not think that it is fair to say that I know what changes are likely to be made, because these are subject of discussion between the working parties and the local authorities and they still continue.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from Scottish local authority associations concerning the payment of grants in respect of trunk and classified roads in cities and large burghs; and what replies he has sent.

None recently, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many local authorities are increasingly concerned at the very heavy financial burdens that are now falling upon them in connection with road works, burdens which they feel ought to be borne by the State, and is it not time that the Government really examined the questions of scheduling roads, classification and grants?

I am aware of this feeling and I appreciate the problem. It is being kept in mind in the consideration which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and I are now giving to the Seventh Report of the Estimates Committee on Classified Roads.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise what an intolerable burden this is placing on local ratepayers, and that in connection with the new Forth Road Bridge the City of Edinburgh, as one example, is having to face tremendous expenditure on road works to meet this new situation? Is it not unfair that any local authority should have to carry this burden on its own? The Government must soon make up their mind that they will accept some responsibility for it.

I am aware of the feeling in Edinburgh. I hope that when the road approaches are open it will not mean that all traffic will pass straight through Edinburgh. Edinburgh will obviously get a great deal of traffic movement into it. But it is because this is a very wide problem and not confined to Edinburgh that it should be looked at in the context of the whole country.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the pier at Lochinver will be extended to meet the needs of the growing fishing industry which is now handicapped for lack of berths and working space; and if he will make a statement.

Sutherland County Council asked in July about the possibility of grant being given for the extension of this pier. It has been informed of the considerations which have to be taken into account in this matter, and no detailed scheme has yet been submitted.

This pier has been heavily congested for several years, long before last July, and that fact should have been apparent to the Department's officers, just as it has been to me and those who frequent this very important place, where a new and growing industry has been built up. For the first time for over a century we have native boats going to the fisheries. Will my right hon. Friend see without further delay that something is done to bring this scheme to fruition?

I rejoice with my hon. Friend that there are some local boats fishing from that area and that the number is increasing. But, in the first place, it is the task of local authorities to bring to the Scottish Department their request as to which piers need doing first. July was the first time that Sutherland County Council brought it to my attention. I can assure my hon. Friend that there will be no delay as far as my Department is concerned when their proposals are received.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now authorise the demolition of the air raid shelter at Oakwell Crescent, Castle Douglas.

Yes, Sir.

May we take it that the Minister believes that these air raid shelters in this part of the west of Scotland are no longer of any use?

No, Sir.

In view of the fact that repeatedly I have raised with the Secretary of State for Scotland the desirability of removing a great many of these disreputable shelters in my division, may I be assured by him that if I now request their removal, he will see that they are taken away?

I cannot give the hon. Member that assurance. The reasons for removing them are either that they are structurally unsound or on public health mounds.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated time required to complete the Forth Road Bridge and its approach roads.

I understand that, given reasonable weather this winter, the contractors expect the bridge to be open to traffic towards the end of 1963.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that to the travelling public it is a bit of a puzzle to understand exactly how all these approach roads will fit in? As I expect that he has a model which shows this vary interesting solution of the complicated approaches, will he arrange for this model to be available in the Royal Scottish Academy or the National Gallery so that the people of Edinburgh may see exactly what is happening?

I will look into the possibility of alerting people in Scotland as to the exact development of these approach roads.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking under Section 96 (2) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1947, to ensure the removal of unsightly telegraph and electricity lines from areas of scenic beauty in Scotland.

My prior consent is required for the erection of electricity lines, and amenity considerations are carefully weighed before consent is granted. I have not hitherto had representations about telegraph lines, which are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend, the Postmaster-General, and are not subject to the provision which my hon. Friend mentions.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply to the spirit rather than to the imprecise letters of the Question, may I take it that he will continue to try to preserve and improve the Highlands for the benefit of the English as well as of the Scots? Has he considered the use of poles, with a variety of contrasting colours, which would merge with the landscape?

I am not certain whether the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board has considered multi-coloured poles, but I am certain that if they are likely to be successful, my hon. Friend's Question will have brought it to their attention.

While my hon. Friend may think that there might be something in the Question, will he ensure that this is not done before the people concerned get electricity?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of the payments due to the White Fish Authority under the Grants and Loans Scheme were not paid on the date they were due.

This information is not readily available. But the cumulative arrears of payments due to the authority at 31st October expressed as a proportion of the sums due on 31st March and 30th September was 27 per cent.

The right hon. Gentleman apparently finds it difficult to get these figures. If he cannot find them, I can assure him that I have been told by those in the Authority that it amounts to not less than 50 per cent. In any case, it shows that the industry is getting into a very serious plight. What steps does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to look into the matter and to see what can he done to help the Scottish fishing industry?

I am due an apology to the hon. Gentleman, because the figure of 49·8 per cent. which was given to him was given to him in error. It is a very complicated calculation, but it was given as a percentage on sums owing at 30th September. In fact it should have been on sums owing on 30th March and 30th September, because most of the money was due then. I agree with him that it shows a serious position, but I cannot add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) on 7th November.

What representations has my right hon. Friend had on the subject of the moratorium since we had the debate about fishing subsidies in July? Will he confirm that the figures of fishing losses are deteriorating? Is he considering extending the moratorium for a further period beyond a year?

As I told the House was likely a fortnight ago, I have had the advantage of a discussion with the Chairman of the Scottish White Fish Authority. I think that it has been useful in clearing up his problems and mine.

Does the mix-up in the Minister's Department, which he has just disclosed, not indicate that it is time that he consulted practical men in the business, such as trawler owners, fish merchants, fishermen and others, who know the industry, instead of relying on amateurs who know nothing about it?

I regret to have to inform the hon and learned Gentleman that the mix-up of the figures was not in my Department.

Will my right hon. Friend kindly answer my original question as to whether he has received any representations from the Scottish trawler owners since July?

I have not.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that in recent weeks herring have appeared once more in sizeable quantities both off East Anglia and in the Minch; and whether he will publish charts for the last five years setting out clearly the changes in the number and location of the herring caught.

Large quantities of herring have been caught recently in the Minch but except for a very short period catches off East Anglia have been disappointing. For the last five years charts of the herring catches off the north east of Scotland have been made available to fishermen in the Scottish Fisheries Bulletin. The preparation of similar charts for the Minch is under consideration. As regards East Anglia this is a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Agriculture Fisheries and Food.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that this is a matter on which as much information as possible is needed? Bearing in mind that the Buchan fisheries have been defunct for the second year in succession and that herring in the East Anglian fisheries season have been exceedingly scarce, we seem to be in danger of destroying the natural resources possibly for lack of information about what is happening. Will he do all that he can to make that information available?

We do all that we can to obtain information on fisheries subjects and to distribute it to the fishermen as soon as it is available.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for a review of forest policy; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 19th November, 1962, to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. Gibson-Watt).

is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a feeling in Scotland now of a need for a much more rational plan for the Forestry Commission in its endeavours to acquire land not suitable for agriculture?

It is exactly this problem which is being considered at the moment.

Even if the Commission makes representations as to the purchase of more land and even if it has to take it compulsorily, it is entirely dependent on the Secretary of State whether permission is granted. Is it the intention to give more power to the Commission to allow it to get on with its own job?

Not more power, but I have great sympathy with the Commission in wanting to plant up extra land where land is suitable for this purpose.

Will my right hon. Friend bring to the notice of his colleagues how much it would help the forestry industry if more home-grown timber could be used for such things as pit props, fencing and telegraph poles?

Yes, Sir.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there is growing unemployment in the south-west of Scotland? Will he direct the attention of the Commission to the fact that a great deal of afforestation might be done, thus giving employment to unemployed miners?

I will certainly look at that problem.

As the Forestry Commission in Scotland is under the Secretary of State's direction, why should it be left to the Minister of Agriculture to make statements about its activities in Scotland?

It is fairly common practice in this and other fields where responsibilities are shared between Ministers.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many men employed by his Department in Malta have been dismissed during the past year and how many will be dismissed during the next two years; and what provision he is making for alternative employment for them.

In the past year thirty-seven men were discharged. As far as we can foresee we shall need to discharge about 300 more in the next two years beginning next April.

In the first instance, the question of alternative employment is one for the Government of Malta.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that Malta is a very small island with a very large unemployment problem? The problem will become greater with the running down of the three Services. Will he take up the matter with the Governor of Malta and try to provide alternative employment for the people who are being thrown out of employment as a result of the running down of the Services?

The question of employment is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, although I have much sympathy with what the hon. Member says and we shall certainly do all we can to help.

asked the Minister of Transport whether it is intended to provide an anti-dazzle barrier or in any way alter the central reservation of that section of the M.1 at present undergoing repairs.

The surface of the central reserve is being reshaped to improve drainage. Additional lengths of drain are also being laid.

I am not proposing at present to extend the experimental anti-dazzle screen in the absence of conclusive evidence that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. It is, however, my intention to install two experimental lengths of anti-crash barrier.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that so many users of these motorways are of the impression that this anti-dazzle barrier is of great benefit, not only from the anti-dazzle point of view but also as a wind break? Often on wide roads there are gusts of wind which can be extremely dangerous. I know from my own experience that such a screen not only acts as an anti-dazzle screen, but also as a wind breaker. Will he reconsider this question?

Almost every person who uses a motorway has different ideas about what should be done. It is not established that in the present traffic conditions there is a case for bringing an anti-dazzle screen into general use. Pending further experience, I am not prepared to do it, but if further experience shows that it is desirable, I will certainly do it.

Why is there all this coyness about anti-dazzle barriers? Is my right hon. Friend aware that for twenty-five years there has been an anti-dazzle screen—bushes and shrubs —on the central reservation of the Winohester By-pass? This is very much approved by all the drivers who use that dual carriageway.

It is a marvellous thing that every single driver speaks for all other drivers. In my experience, drivers vary enormously in what they think ought to be done.

Northampton is on this road. I have a great deal of experience of driving down this road at night. I have yet to meet a single motorist who does not experience an enormous relief when he comes to the part by Luton where there is a screen barrier. I should like to meet the motorist we are always being told about who does not like this barrier.

I think that would better appear in order if prefaced with some words like "Is the Minister aware?"

First, Northampton is not on the M.1. It is near the M.1, but not on it. Secondly, if the hon. and learned Gentleman would care to go down to the Road Research Laboratory, where I frequently go, he could look at the scientific experiments being made and form his own conclusions.

asked the Minister of Transport what reply has been sent to the representations made by Brecon-shire County Council about the delay in the construction of the Heads of the Valley Road, on the section Gilwern to Brynmawr; and whether he is satisfied that the contractor is employing sufficient labour and machinery for the work.

The county council has been informed that delay in completion of the road is due to weather and other conditions which entitle the contractor to an extension of time under the contract. It is hoped that, as a result of a concentration of effort, the contractor will be clear of the difficult section in the Black Rock area of the Clydach Gorge by the New Year thus relieving the present traffic conditions there. In view of the importance which I attach to the completion of this scheme as soon as possible, I am watching the position closely to ensure that the work progresses as quickly as weather conditions permit. I am advised that as much labour and machinery is now on the site as could usefully be employed during the winter months.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the opinion of the Rochdale Committee that further development of port facilities on the River Humber will almost certainly be necessary, if he will include in his road programme a motorway to link with the proposed M.62 as originally contained in the 1946 Motorway Plan.

I have no plans for extending the proposed Lancashire—Yorkshire motorway, that is, M.62, to Hull. I propose, however, to improve the trunk roads to Hull and to provide a first-class road communication system linking the port both with the West Riding and with Doncaster and the South. I have appointed a firm of consulting engineers to recommend the most efficient and economical pattern of trunk roads to meet the present and future requirements between the Great North Road and Hull.

When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to get a report from his consulting engineers and how long after that does he expect the work to commence?

I cannot say at the moment. The firm of consulting engineers is one of great experience and I am sure that it will proceed as expeditiously as possible. I can assure the hon. Member that we shall not waste any time after we receive that report.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the road facilities from the ports on the south side of the Humber are as important as the road facilities for the north side? Will he see that a port like Immingham, which is in my constituency, gets as good new facilities to the Midlands and the South as are to be given to Hull?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that matter, and I should like to consider it.

Will the Minister see that the consulting engineers and his advisers give careful consideration when siting this road so that it is somewhere near Selby, which wild do away with the toll bridge?

I think that I had better wait for the report of the consulting engineers and take that matter up with them later.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made with plans for a motorway to connect the M.1 road with the London Docks.

My long-term plan is to connect the M.1 to the London Docks by way of M.10, the South Mimms By-Pass, the "D" Ring Road, the Bishops Stortford Motorway and the Docks Relief Road. These will all be dual carriageway roads of high standard, but not all will be special roads.

The M.10 and the South Mimms By-Pass are already open. I hope to publish a draft Order under Section 7 of the Highways Act, 1959, in respect of this section of the "D" Ring Road in a few months. Consulting engineers have been appointed to survey a line for the Bishops Stortford Motorway. No detailed work has yet been undertaken on the final section.

Would the Minister say, as near as he can, how long-term this project is? Does he fully realise the aid which this motorway would give to deal with the severe congestion in the northern Metropolitan area, and that the early completion of this project would save him a lot of time, trouble and money expended on road widening schemes in the outlying parts of London?

I am aware of the urgency of this matter and that is why, in my original Answer, I gave the House a comprehensive review of what is happening. A great deal is happening. We want to move ahead as fast as we can, but however fast we move, under the statutory process we have laid down in Parliament. it will be some time before this is complete. Therefore, one must proceed with such things as the widening of Archway Road and the new route which I recently announced and which is being carefully considered. The permanent solution will be as I outlined in my Answer.

Has the Minister yet reached a decision about the interim proposal for a lorry route? Can he assure the House that in no circumstances will it go through Highgate Village?

I cannot give that assurance. I am re-examining the proposal in the light of the many detailed comments and suggestions which have been made in response to my original announcement. I promised that any constructive suggestions put forward as an alternative to my suggestion would be considered and that is what has been consuming a lot of time. I must honour that pledge and I intend to continue to do so.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has for the establishment of an adequate approach road to the Dartford Tunnel from the south.

A new road constructed as part of the tunnel works will link the tunnel with A.2. Beyond that point the Kent County Council has on my behalf surveyed a route for the construction of the first section of the South Orbital Road I am awaiting its observations on alternative proposals which have been submitted. I will then consider the final recommendations and publish the necessary Orders under the Highways Act, 1959.

Is the Minister aware that a recent origin and destination survey showed that 13,000 passenger car units a day already use the road from the south and that a further 28,000 use the A.2? Will he indicate that any delay in constructing the new approach road will mean that the advantages which will occur in the opening of the tunnel next year will be lost because of the congestion which will occur on the present roads? Will he, therefore, give greater priority to the construction of this road than appears to be the case at present?

I do not think it is a question of priorities. The evidence which the hon. Member mentions will certainly be taken into account, but there have been difficulties and considerable opposition to the South Orbital Road, oddly enough in the Orpington area, where there seems to be opposition in all sorts of ways. But they have prepared an alternative and I will consider that. I will also consider what the hon. Member said in his supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the fact that the major South Wales contracts for wire ropes for the Severn Bridge have been placed with a bridge consortium from north-east England, what steps he is taking to ensure that South Wales companies are given an opportunity of tendering for the ancillary suspender ropes.

In accordance with my request to the joint engineers for the Severn Bridge the main contractors have been asked to obtain competitive quotations for the supply of suspender ropes from suppliers with suitable capacity, including suppliers in South Wales.

I am much obliged to the Minister. Will he convey to the bridge consortium, in view of its monopoly position, that there will be a fearful row in South Wales if none of the work goes there and that its activities are being scrutinised very closely indeed?

Spinning the cables, which is done on the site by a special process, could not be done by South Wales firms. The question whether an order for other equipment is given to the people of South Wales will depend entirely on the merits of their tenders.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the general high unemployment position in South Wales and the North-East and has he heard the remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer about increasing expenditure on roads and bridges in those areas?

I am quite certain that the question of a tender should be decided on the merits of whatever the firm of contractors submit.

Is the Minister aware that that is all they want?

And that is all they are going to get.

Mr. Callaghan, Question 36.

In which case I can tell the Minister that we shall be satisfied.

These exchanges are so swift that they have drowned my calling Question 36.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will conduct a special inquiry into the series of accidents at the junction of South Park Road, Grosvenor Square and Moorland Road, Splott, Cardiff, with a view to seeing how they can be eliminated.

I have considered the accident record at this junction, which is not exceptional. In the last three years six people have been seriously, and eleven slightly, hurt. There have been no deaths. The main factor appears to be failure to observe the traffic signs. This reflects on driving conduct rather than on the arrangements at the junction, and I do not consider that a special inquiry is called for.

May I ask the Minister whether he will reconsider that Answer? Is he aware that there are special geographical difficulties there? Does he know that five roads debouch into an areas as large as if not larger than a big football pitch, that there are no circulatory arrangements of any sort and that vehicles just charge straight across the area? Will the right hon. Gentleman ask his engineers to have a look at the position which causes local anxiety?

Certainly I should be grateful if the hon. Member sends, in letter form, details of what my engineers should look at, and I will make certain that they look at them.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if he will state the number of accidents that have taken place on the Pool Bank portion of the Bradford-Harrogate road during the present year; and how many people have been killed;

(2) what steps have been taken to make Pool Bank on the Bradford-Harrogate Road safer for motorists; and what improvements are to be made in the future.

During the first ten months of this year there were six personal injury accidents. In one of these accidents two people were killed.

There is a steep hill at Pool Bank and motorists need to take special care. Warning signs have been erected and there are carriageway markings, including double white lines. I understand that the West Riding County Council, which is the highway authority, is considering long-term improvements, but I have not yet received any proposals from it.

Will my right hon. Friend propose to the council that it should consider a traffic roundabout where this steep hill joins with another A road, the one from Wetherby to Otley, and both of which are equally important? Is he aware that a traffic roundabout might solve the difficulty?

I will see that the West Riding County Council, which is responsible for initiating the scheme, receives a copy of the exchanges now being made in the House. What it does then will be up to the council.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to provide an adequate standard in the future construction of motorways in view of the fact that five lives have been lost within two weeks on the 20-mile section of the M.1 under repair where standards have been found to be inadequate.

Without necessarily accepting the implication behind the hon. Member's Question, I can say that we do change our standards when experience shows that to be necessary. The current standard specification for motorways provides for stronger carriageways, wider and stronger hard shoulders and more elaborate drainage than on M.1.

In view of the fact that the Minister admitted to me in a letter, dated 31st October, that a calculated risk was taken in the specifications of M.1 and he appeared subsequently on television and boasted that he or his firm had taken a calculated risk in building a concrete dry dock, may I ask the Minister whether he will now give the House an assurance that he will not take calculated risks on our motorways with the lives of British people?

No, I am sorry, but it is not a question of that. All engineering is a question of balance of advantages. Anybody can build to high security standards if they are prepared to pay the price, but to produce what one wants—an efficient tool or an efficient article—at the lowest price is real efficiency and in some cases one takes a calculated risk. In spite of the cost of repair on M.1, if that is added to the original cost it will turn out to be the best and cheapest motorway in the country.

Is there not a great deal of doubt whether this road is strong enough to take the heavy pounding of traffic on it? Will my right hon. Friend consider whether reinforced concrete would not be a better and more durable surface for the road?

If my hon. Friend wants to go into this he should go to the Road Research Station at Crowthorne and have a look at the experiments there. It is not so much a question of top dressing. What really counts in engineering is the foundation on which it is laid. First, concrete gets a little ahead as a top surface and then black top. It depends on technical developments which are altering all the time.

Does not the light hon. Gentleman still agree that the cost in human lives is too much in order to take a calculated risk to save a few thousand pounds on a motorway?

As far as lives are concerned, this particular incident has affected them hardly at all. It is not a question of people being killed but of inconvenience to motorists who have to slow down at a particular point.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet found a barrier for use on motorways strong enough to stop a vehicle from crossing into the other carriageway and resilient enough to stop the vehicle bouncing back on to its own carriageway.

I am having a full study made of measures which might be taken to prevent accidents caused by vehicles crossing the central reserve. This includes tests by the Road Research Laboratory of the various types of barrier that are at present available. In addition I am hoping shortly to authorise the installation of two ten-mile experimental lengths of flex-beam anti-crash barrier on M.1 to see what effect such a barrier has in practice compared with the remaining parts of the motorway.

If my right hon. Friend discovers the right thing will it be made standard for all motorways?

We must take one thing at a time. I should like to have the result of these experiments first before I decide what will happen.

asked the Minister of Transport what improvements are to be made between London and the Poole, Bournemouth, Christchurch conurbation on the A.30, A.33, and A.31 roads, particularly between Ringwood and Ferndown.

In the longer term, the answer will lie in the London to Basingstoke motorway, with dual carriageways onwards from Basingstoke.

The route of the motorway is now being surveyed. Meanwhile many improvements are being made or planned on A.30, A.33 and A.31. The construction of dual carriageways between Ringwood and Ferndown has already begun.

asked the Minister of Transport when he intends to let contracts for the southern section of the Bristol-Birmingham Motorway.

A scheme is being prepared for extending the Birmingham-Bristol Motorway southwards from Twyning to East Brent in Somerset. I cannot say when the contracts will be let: construction will depend on completion of the statutory processes and on the availability of funds.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the traffic congestion in Tewkesbury has become quite appalling? Until the completion of the first stage of the motorway, will my right hon. Friend take emergency measures to make at least a short by-pass section available for an early start, in view of the congestion of the main road to the south?

I am sorry about the congestion in Tewkesbury, but the answer will be this motorway. I doubt whether it is worth while to take emergency measures.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am glad to hear what he said about an extension south from Bristol to East Brent? Can he give any further idea of when the work will begin?

I said in my original Answer that I cannot say when the contract will be let. Construction depends on the completion of statutory processes, which are not in my hands at all, and on the availability of funds.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will consider introducing regulations whereby lorries and trailers of more than a specified length must carry reflectors along the side of their vehicles.

I have recently made the Road Vehicles Lighting (Long Vehicles and Trailers) Regulations, 1962, which, from 24th July, 1963, will require motor vehicles and trailers exceeding prescribed lengths to carry marker lamps along their sides. I think my hon. Friend will find that these new requirements serve the purpose he has in mind.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply? Does he realise that this will, I believe, go a long way to stop quite serious accidents occurring in the future?

I think it will be helpful, and I am terribly grateful to anybody who thanks me.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement as to the effect of the experimental speed limits in force at weekends this summer.

On the lengths of road with a 50 m.p.h. speed limit there was a reduction of 30 per cent. in the number of accidents involving personal injury as compared with the corresponding weekends in 1959. On a group of comparable roads with no speed limit there was a similar reduction on the 1959 figure. On other roads in the non-built-up areas the number of casualties during the summer months of 1962 was about the same as in 1959.

Has my right hon. Friend made up his mind as to what he proposes to do next year? If he has not, will he consider, at any rate on some sections of these roads, not having speed limits so early on Fridays and carrying on so late on Mondays, because a great many people going to work find them unnecessary at those times?

I am considering the implications of these results and I will make a statement as soon as possible. However, I am sure that I take the whole House with me when I say that, if I can reduce the number of people killed and wounded by reducing the speed limit, it ought to be done. At present I do not think that the evidence is quite sufficient. I propose to examine it in great detail and I will consider the suggestion made by my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that over many motorways in the United States a speed limit of 60 miles per hour is imposed, which has been found extremely beneficial and conducive to the saving of life? Will he consider this for the future?

Yes, I have certainly got that in mind. There is an official of my Department in the United States now considering what happens on their motorways. From the reports that I have from him he has so far not been on a motorway whore the speed limit is in excess ot 65 miles per hour.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in view of the very large increase in the number of motor cars on the roads since 1959, the figures he gave a few minutes ago are very satisfactory?

One of the most difficult problems for a Minister of Transport is the question of road accidents. The number of both fatalities and serious accidents is rising. Whilst the numbers are better than they were in the past, I still think they are bad by what I should consider would be the ideal.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has now received a request for expert assistance in advising Goole on its traffic problems; and what action is being taken.

Yes, Sir. The borough engineer wrote to my divisional road engineer on 2nd November and a meeting is being arranged.

asked the Minister of Transport what action he proposes to take on the recommendations of the Rochdale Report.

The Government have asked the national representative bodies concerned for their views on the Committee's main recommendations. When I have received and fully considered those views I will make a statement.

Can the Minister give any idea about the timetable—how long it will be before he can tell the House what he proposes to do, and whether it will be in the form of a White Paper or some such document?

Quite frankly. I do not know yet. I am waiting for these considered reports from the interested parties concerned, but I can promise the right hon. Gentleman that there will be no undue delay. This Committee was appointed to do a job of work. It did that efficiently in a short time and I hope to receive these representations by the end of the month. I can assure the House that it is my earnest desire to move ahead quickly with modernising our ports.

While appreciating that the Report was mainly directed to the major ports and harbours, may I ask my right hon. Friend to give an assurance that before he finally comes to a conclusion he will allow the points of view of the smaller port authorities to be considered as well?

Certainly, and when I have received the representations from the major bodies I propose to ask individual port authorities to give me their views on the Rochdale Report.

In the meantime, while the Minister is awaiting this information, what attitude will he take about the Docks and Harbour Board? Will he continue to establish that Board or will he wait until he reaches his decision on the Rochdale Committee's Report?

I think that the whole thing should be treated comprehensively. I hope to finalise the Government's views on what we should do with the docks as a whole and present them to the House.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he proposes to take to implement the urgent recommendation of the Rochdale Committee that information should be collected to assist the proposed National Ports Authority to act efficiently.

My Department is examining what additional statistics the managements and users of ports should be asked to supply. This additional paper work will mean some trouble and expense and I want to be sure that my demands for more statistics are carefully thought out.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is a most urgent recommendation by the Rochdale Committee and that it is to be hoped that, although this will be dealt with urgently, the plan followed will be a long-term plan and not a crash programme?

I quite agree. I am certain that the ports, docks and harbours of the country ought to be looked at in the long term and should be dealt with comprehensively.

Will my right hon. Friend give a pledge that the interests of the smaller ports will not be forgotten when he makes his major plan?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the fact that British canals often fall into weed-choked disrepair and force cargo boats and pleasure seekers away, if he will give a general direction to the British Waterways Board to rehabilitate its canals.

In the Transport Act, 1962, Parliament has placed specific duties on the British Waterways Board in relation to its inland waterways, including a financial duty to keep its deficits at the lowest possible level. I do not, therefore, propose to give a direction such as the hon. Member suggests.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these canals are not only useless but are an eyesore and that if they were dredged and made navigable, we could thereby relieve some of the traffic congestion on our roads? If they are not to be used in future, will the Minister have them filled in and make new roads out of them?

That is a very wide supplementary question and it depends on where the canals are, where they come from, where they go to and whether the condition of them is such that they can be made usable for traffic. There are a whole series of considerations and the matter is not as simple as the hon. Member suggests.

My right hon. Friend has successfully dodged the question. Is he not aware that many of these canals are in a semi-derelict condition and that it is no use his saying that there are certain duties placed on the Commission unless those duties are carried out, particularly in regard to the Kennet and Avon Canal?

I did not say that duties were placed on the Commission but on the new British Waterways Board which starts on 1st January next. It will be a new Board, divorced from the Commission, with an Exchequer subsidy for its deficits for five years, a specific capital sum for five years and a duty to say what shall be done for the canals. I do not think that that is wrong.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to provide cheaper meals on main line passenger trains.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that the present policy of providing meals on main line trains is one of diminishing returns? Is not the Minister giving any consideration to families travelling from one town to another? Should they not be able to purchase something other than a set lunch or dinner costing them about 15s. each?

In the buffet cars that is not so. They can purchase snacks and all sorts of things. The only reduction which has been made affected the restaurant car service, which last year lost £¼ million.

Is not the Minister aware that there are no buffet cars on the Leeds to King's Cross route? Will he consider the 'provision of automatic machines on trains? Does he appreciate that if he is prepared to organise this service properly it will not incur a loss but will make a profit?

That may be so, but this is a question for the British Transport Commission and, later, the British Railways Board as a matter of day-to-day judgment, and not a matter for me as the Minister.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give directions for cheap nourishing, succulent food to be made available—[AN HON. MEMBER: A red herring?]—No. A straightforward herring —without calling in aid expensive foods such as those which are obtainable only on the trains and without calling in aid any other kind of red herring?

I will call the attention of the British Transport Commission to the hon. and learned Member's supplementary question, but I would point out that a lot depends on the age of the fish.