asked the First Secretary of State if he will make a statement on his recent official talks with the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia.

When Sir Edgar Whitehead was in London passing to and from New York, I took the opportunity of having talks with him on a number of matters including his speeches in New York. These conversations were confidential.

In view of the fact that Sir Edgar Whitehead has now recognised Her Majesty's Government as responsible for the affairs of Southern Rhodesia by appearing as a member of Her Majesty's Government's delegation in New York when these affairs were discussed at the United Nations, can the First Secretary say whether he pressed Sir Edgar Whitehead and made proposals for greater African representation in the Legislative Council in Southern Rhodesia and for the legalisation of Z.A.P.U. as the only representative national movement of the African people in that territory?

I cannot accept the premise of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question as being correct. The constitutional position as betweeen the United Kingdom and Southern Rhodesia, especially under the new Constitution, remains unaltered. I am afraid that I cannot reveal the contents of my conversations.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how, if indeed Her Majesty's Government have no responsibility for Southern Rhodesia, it was possible for Sir Edgar Whitehead to appear as a member of Her Majesty's Government's delegation in New York?

It is true that Sir Edgar spoke from the United Kingdom seat, but I do not see any other way that he could have spoken, and the fact that he did speak did a great deal of good.

Did Sir Edgar Whitehead tell the First Secretary, as he subsequently told the Press in Southern Rhodesia, that the British delegates at the United Nations "did not really know anything about the case"? Does the right hon. Gentleman repudiate this, and would he not agree that it was very disastrous for Britain's name that we replaced Sir Hugh Foot by Sir Edgar Whitehead as our principal spokesman?

The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question does not represent the case at all. In regard to the alleged representations made to me by Sir Edgar Whitehead, I cannot reveal what was said in our conversations, but I would not accept any such stricture's on the British team.

asked the First Secretary of State whether he will introduce legislation to amend the Constitution of Southern Rhodesia in order to give greater freedom to political parties and to individuals.

Except for matters affecting the position of the Queen and the Governor, the amendment of the present Constitution is a matter for the Southern Rhodesia Legislature.

Arising out of that reply, does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the African National Congress was banned in 1959, that its successor, the National Democratic Party, was banned last year, and that Z.A.P.U. was banned this year? How does he expect that any democratic constitution can function if organisations representing the majority of the people are forbidden to operate?

The only observation that I can make, without interfering in the affairs of Southern Rhodesia, is that all these organisations were banned because they decided to take unlawful means for prosecuting their ends. If they had not done so, I do not believe that they would have been banned.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he agrees that certain responsibilities still rest on this House, and that if the Constitution in Southern Rhodesia results in the suppression of the parties of the majority, in the restriction of the liberty of individuals and in a situation which is a danger to the peace of a great part of Africa, surely it is time the right hon. Gentleman did something to secure a change in the Constitution which will provide for majority representation?

No, Sir. I do not think, especially since the new Constitution came into force on 1st November, that we have power to intervene in that way.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in this country there is a very large body of opinion which is right behind Sir Edgar Whitehead and the very wise leadership which he is giving to Southern Rhodesia?

All I can say in reply is that anybody who reads his two speeches at the United Nations must realise that Sir Edgar Whitehead is inspired by liberal ideas. I therefore draw the attention of the House to these speeches, so that hon. Members may draw their own conclusions.

Would the First Secretary agree that, whether Sir Edgar has liberal ideas or not, the fact that he has not only banned the only representative African party in the State, but has made it impossible for any of the leaders of that party ever to operate in a political capacity again in that State, produces a situation of intense danger to the European and African populations alike in the Territory, and is liable to expose this country, which still has the final responsibility, to serious disrepute in world opinion?

If I heard the hon. Gentleman aright, I would not accept that these African members of this party are banned for ever. It was only a limited time, if I understand it aright. In regard to the rest of the situation, I sincerely hope, as do all people who wish to see progress in these matters, that there will be a resolution of these problems in Southern Rhodesia.

asked the First Secretary of State if he will publish the report he has received from his working party of experts on the financial and economic aspects of the links between the territories of the Central African Federation.

The advisers, whose appointment I announced on 28th June, have reported to me personally and I do not intend to publish the advice which I have received from them.

In view of the complexity of the problems and of the importance of having as many facts as possible in order to take cool decisions about them, would it not be immensely helpful to public opinion in this country and in Central Africa if it were to have the advantage of the information now before the First Secretary?

There is a Motion on the Order Paper and there should be an opportunity for discussing these matters in the House. I certainly did not want a public inquiry. Any information which I can give to the House as a result of Her Majesty's Government's decisions or interim decisions I shall be very glad to give.

asked the First Secretary of State what immediate action Her Majesty's Government is taking to prevent a deterioration in the situation in Northern Rhodesia.

I am not aware that the situation has deteriorated.

Is not the First Secretary aware that the Constitution, which was, apparently, designed to produce deadlock, has in fact now produced deadlock? Does not the First Secretary agree that it will now be very important for the future of this territory to have a new Constitution which will allow the majority to have their wishes truly reflected? Quite apart from the need for a new Constitution, has not the result of the last election shown that the overwhelming mass of the people in the Territory are apposed to Federation, and how does the First Secretary intend to respond to that?

I think that the first thing for the First Secretary and the House to do is to await the result of the election. There are still ten frustrated National seats on which we hope to have some results, and there is one upper roll seat now vacant which has to be filled. It would be very wrong for me to make any further observations pending the result of the election.

Does not the result of the general election already show that it is dangerous futility to rely on a Constitution expressly designed to misrepresent the state of public opinion in Northern Rhodesia, and will not the First Secretary now take steps to implement the recommendation made by the Monckton Commission more than two years ago to produce an African majority in the Legislative Council of Northern Rhodesia?

No, Sir. I can take no step or any decision in this until I see the result of the election.

asked the First Secretary of State why the Convention African National Union is not presented at the Nyasaland Constitutional Conference.

Representation at the Nyasaland Constitutional Conference is based on membership of the Legislative Council. As the Convention African National Union has no such representative it was not invited to attend the Conference.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this party has considerable support in Nyasaland, so much so that the Malawi Party has found it necessary to attack its headquarters and members of the party on five different occasions, without any prosecutions being instituted against it? Even if representatives cannot at this late stage be admitted to the Conference, will my right hon. Friend at least see them himself and hear their views?

These representatives have been interviewed at the Central African Office. They have submitted their suggestions in writing, which have been noted and taken into account by me personally. As regards seeing them, I have to bear in mind the variety of minority interests if I accede to the request of one section. Perhaps my hon. Friend will speak to me about this.

asked the First Secretary of State what action has been taken in Nyasaland against the persons responsible for the publication of an editorial article in the Malawi News of Friday, 21st September, 1962, calling for violence against the person of a British journalist, Alan Hart.

This is a matter for the Attorney-General of Nyasaland. I am, however, making inquiries and will communicate with my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this matter happened some time ago, and that there is considerable concern in Nyasaland whether the Attorney-General is prosecuting this sort of case as he might do? Will not my right hon. Friend have another look at this, because if it is allowed to go on unchallenged—a direct incentive to violence against the person by a newspaper—it will be thought that the Government are paying no regard whatever to law and order in Nyasaland?

Yes, Sir. I am awaiting the report, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend.

Without wishing to comment on the incident to which the hon. Gentleman's Question refers, may I ask the First Secretary if he will bear in mind that the Malawi News is performing a very notable service in trying to create a more stable and constructive future for Nyasaland?

asked the First Secretary of State what are the latest figures available in his Department showing the numbers of African children attending schools in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, the proportion of children receiving some form of education, the public expenditure on education per child, and the fees payable where this applies, and the proportions of children staying on till school certificate level.

I am asking the Governments of both Territories for the latest information, and will write to the hon. Member when this is received.

While thanking the First Secretary for that reply and the action he has taken, may I ask him if he would be good enough, at the same time, to assemble and publish the same set of facts for European children in these Territories and also in Southern Rhodesia, so that, side by side, we can see what is the extent of the gulf which has to be bridged in the provision of education as between white children and black children?

Yes, Sir. I will look into that.

Will the First Secretary also publish this in the OFFICIAL REPORT, so that other people may benefit from this information?

What I will do is to examine the hon. Gentleman's suggestion and do my best to serve the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will take steps to encourage the establishment of a Commonwealth trade centre in London.

I have been asked to reply.

Will my hon. Friend take into consideration the success of the American Trade Centre in London, and perhaps at least consult with the Trade Commissioners for the Commonwealth countries to see whether this is an idea which would help Commonwealth trade?

Yes, Sir, of course; but my hon. Friend appreciates that new channels of trade do not necessarily increase the volume of trade. In fact, the Commonwealth Relations Office has not received any request at all for the establishment of such a centre.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what steps he has now taken in respect of the formation of the proposed Malaysian Federation; and, in particular, what consultations he has had on this matter.

I have been asked to reply.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman, first, if he can say about what time the report will be made by this Committee; and, secondly, may I take it that the Brunei Protectorate is fully co-operating in the preparations for this Federation?

It is rather difficult to say when the work of this Committee will be complete, but it is going well, and should, on present form, be complete, I hope, by the New Year.

Could the Minister say whether Brunei is fully co-operating in the preparations for this Federation?

Yes, Sir, as my right hon. Friend said in his statement on 1st August, the Sultan has been told that Brunei's inclusion in Malaysia would be very welcome. Brunei has sent observers, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, to the Intergovernmental Committee. We are not forcing a decision, but Brunei would be very welcome if she wishes to join.

asked the Minister of Education how many courses have been arranged by local education authorities this autumn for the training and education of apprentices during their first year; and what number of enrolments were made.

This information is not yet available, but I will send it to the hon. Member as soon as it has been received from local education authorities.

Last year there was some progress, but not enough. Will the hon. Gentleman consider reviewing the results of Circular 9/1960 and seeing whether we can get every local authority to participate in this form of training and education?

My right hon. Friend will take that suggestion into considera- tion. The situation should be clearer when we receive the replies from the local authorities, which should be very soon. They were asked to supply the information by 26th November.

asked the Minister of Education if he will make a statement on the course in French language and institutions at the University of Poitiers for training college students t whether similar courses are in operation at present; and what plans he has for organising similar courses at other centres abroad in other languages.

This six-month course in France was introduced experimentally when the training college course was extended to three years. In 1961, 75 selected students training to teach French attended the first course at the University of Poitiers at Tours. Another 60 started the second course at Tours last July. A similar course for 25 students was held earlier this year at the University of Caen. My right hon. Friend hopes to announce shortly the arrangements to he made for next year. He has no plans for similar courses in other languages.

I am sure that the House is grateful for that information and for the success of those particular courses in France. Will the hon. Gentleman consider arranging courses in German, Italian and, possibly, Russian in order that there may he a wider spread of interest in foreign language education?

At the moment, it is a very small proportion of the students at these training colleges who are studying languages other than French. Should the numbers rise, that suggestion will be taken into consideration.

Will the Minister take steps to stimulate progress? It is only by the growth of wider interest at the training colleges that there will be a spread of interest in other languages.

The demands of the schools probably are changing ill this respect, and the teacher training colleges are very responsive to those changes.

asked the Minister of Education how many teachers were sent abroad on exchange with foreign teachers in the years 1955, 1961 and 1962, respectively.

The numbers under schemes sponsored by my Department were 103, 90 and 76. The corresponding figures under the scheme for assistants, who take groups for conversation in their own language, were 440, 689 and 699. Assistants are mainly students, but include some teachers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that exchanges with American and European teachers are of tremendous benefit to both foreign and British education and also in the interest of international friendship and understanding? Is it not regrettable that, although, as a result of an appeal some of us made, we have improved the financial conditions for the exchange of such teachers, the Minister has cut back the number steadily over the years? Will he look into the matter again and treat it in the generous way we are now beginning to treat the supply of teachers to the Commonwealth?

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the beneficial effect of such exchanges. I think that the cut-back he refers to is applicable only to exchanges with America. He will notice that the number of assistants involved in such exchanges is rising very rapidly.

asked the Minister of Education when work on the extensions to the Holyhead County School are to commence

The authority expects to go to tender very early in the new year, and I hope that it will be possible for building work to start in March or April, 1963.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that accommodation in this large comprehensive school of 1,400 pupils, one of the largest in Wales, is grossly inadequate? Does he know that, nearly two years ago, Lord Eccles, who was then Minister of Education, promised me that the work would be started last year? Will the hon. Gentleman now give me a firm assurance that work will, in fact, be started in March as he has stated?

Extensions to the school were included in the 1961–62 major building programme, and they make up the first stage of a very complicated remodelling scheme which has involved a considerable amount of planning. Both my right hon. Friend's Department and the local education authority are aware of the urgency of the project.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the urgent need for a new county secondary school in Splott, Cardiff, in view of the conditions in which teaching is now being carried on; and if he will undertake to include financial provision for such a school in the 1964–65 programme.

I know that the Cardiff local education authority is anxious to replace the existing school, but it has other projects which it rightly regards as more urgent. I cannot yet say when it will be possible for my right hon. Friend to authorise this work.

Does the last part of that Answer mean that he has not made up his mind yet or that he has made up his mind not to do so?

The 1964–65 building programme has not yet been announced.

In that case, may I press on the Minister, as strongly as I can, the urgent need for this work to be done? Will he review whether it is accurate that Cardiff put this at the top of the list? I understood that it was bracketed at the top of its list with three other projects, all of which are vital. Is it not a measure of the failure of the Government that they are unable to give priority and attention to four projects in the City of Cardiff which need urgent action, as is agreed by every educationist of all parties in the city?

May I, as one who lived in Cardiff for several years in the past, support what my hon. Friend has said and ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look very seriously at this problem? The needs of the area are really urgent. Will he please do something about it?

I shall certainly consider what is said. There are two projects in this area which are needed for the reorganisation of all-age schools, and they would, in the ordinary course of events, secure priority.

asked the Minister of Education what was the cost in 1961 of providing a new school place compared with 1951, taking into account increased building costs.

About £120 for a primary school place and about £210 for a secondary school place, compared with £135 and £242 in 1951.

Will my hon. Friend see that all concerned are congratulated upon this very welcome piece of Government economy?

Yes, Sir.

In view of the satisfactory reduction in the cost of places, will the Minister now consider enormously increasing the number of places to be provided and expand the programme accordingly?

Since 1951, there has, I think, been just as dramatic a rise in that respect as there has been a decline in the other.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, while the economies have been partly the result of tremendously improved efficiency in the building industry and the work of his own Ministry, part of them is due to cutting back essential features in school construction? Will he consider very carefully the possibility of replacing some of the features which were cut out in the course of economies in many of the new schools which have lately been built?

I think that the known respect in international circles for school building in this country belies what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that, although it is true that excellent work has been done in many ways by the Architect's Department, what my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) has said is true also? Cuts have been made, for instance, in corridors, stairs and so forth, with the result that the time taken by children to change from one classroom to another has been very much increased because there is not enough space in the building. Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there are schools where economies have been achieved partly at the cost of speed of mobility?

When criticisms are made, they are very rapidly brought to our attention by Her Majesty's inspectorate, and action is quickly taken upon them.

asked the Minister of Education what percentage of the national income was spent on education in 1951 and 1961, respectively.

I refer my hon. Friend to the Answer my right hon. Friend gave on 26th July to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger), which showed that the percentage of the gross national product spent on education in the United Kingdom rose from 3.1 in 1951 to an estimated figure of 4.4 per cent. in 1961.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the record of the Government in this respect is a very fine one indeed?

Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend.

Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that the change in the balance of the population between those dates made it absolutely essential that we should spend more of our income on education?

Does the Parliamentary Secretary appreciate that these figures have no significance unless they are related to need? When they are related to need, is it not quite clear that the Government are at every stage of education a long way from meeting the need to provide full educational opportunities?

I find it difficult to follow that supplementary question. The total gross national product is not related to need. These figures clearly show that an appreciably higher proportion of our national wealth is today devoted to education.

Will my hon. Friend not be put off by the "sour-grapes" attitude of the Opposition?

If the Opposition cannot shake the intolerable complacency shown on the benches opposite about this matter, I can assure the Government that the people of this country will. [Interruption.] Do not the Minister and his supporters realise that there is a grave problem here in a large number of older schools which have overcrowding and bad facilities and where a great deal more needs to be done, and that this insufferable giggling by the Government supporters is getting more than we can bear?

I do not mean to imply any complacency. It is expected that for the current financial year the percentage will rise again to 4·6.

Is not this a lower percentage than that of any other nation in Western Europe with a standard of living similar to that of Britain?

That I most certainly do not accept. It is in fact a higher proportion than that of any country in Western Europe with the possible exception of Sweden.

asked the Minister of Education what instructions are issued by his Department to local education authorities about tendering for school transport facilities.

None, Sir; this is a matter for the local education authority.

I am fully aware of that, but will my hon. Friend try to ensure that the local education authorities, with which, after all, he has close liaison, when they receive and consider tenders for local bus services, take into account the private firms in particular which run stage services in rural districts, bearing in mind that we want to keep our rural bus services in operation? They are already contracting quite enough.

I know that that is a consideration in the minds of several local authorities, but it is not for my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Education the average number of grammar and technical school places available per 1,000 of population in England and Wales, in Kent, and in the Maidstone educational division of Kent, respectively.

In January, 1962, the numbers of pupils in maintained grammar and technical schools and streams per 1,000 of the population in England and Wales, Kent and the area of the Maidstone Divisional Executive were respectively 17·8, 20·8 and 19·2.

Could my hon. Friend differentiate between grammar and technical?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Education what expenditure on minor works has been made in each of the past sixteen years.

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the great need for a substantial increase in expenditure on minor works in those areas where substantial old church schools come under the authority? Unless there is an increase in these areas, it is manifestly unfair to the children living there contrasted with the position of their neighbours in other villages who are in better circumstances?

My right hon. Friend is very much aware of the need which exists in those instances. My hon. Friend will, of course, have noticed that the minor works allocation for the current year has recently been increased from £10 million to £16 million.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that the £16 million is still less than the £21 million at which it once stood? Will he translate his right hon. Friend's enthusiasm into action by ensuring that the cut in the minor works programme is fully restored?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is in some confusion, because the previous figure related to an 18-month period and not to a period of one year.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking in schools under his control to help the campaign of the Swimming Teachers Association of Great Britain and the Commonwealth to promote by the inculcation of swimming physical development, health, human life saving, safety, sport and recreation; and why he has not directed that its new film, "The Last Week in Summer", be shown in all schools under his control in pursuance of that campaign.

My right hon. Friend wishes this campaign every success and is anxious that school children should learn to swim wherever facilities are available. He does not direct what films shall be shown in schools.

Will the Minister of Education direct authorities to show films of the type like that indicated in the Question rather than Hollywood and other films which pervert youth, promote juvenile delinquency, encourage bank raids, encourage adults in gunmanship and murder, and waste the time of our law courts? Will he reform his curriculum in that way?

I am sure that a number of schools will be interested in this film, but it is not up to my right hon. Friend to direct them as to the films that they should show.

asked the Minister of Education approximately how many schools have swimming baths or pools; how many of these are inside school buildings, with particular reference to those schools where classrooms are no longer needed for teaching owing to reduction of child population in the district.

My right hon. Friend understands that a number of classroom pools are being installed in various parts of the country and he is asking some of the local authorities mainly concerned to keep him informed about this development. Information about the number of schools which have swimming baths or pools is not available.

Does the Minister agree that this is an excellent development and that particularly when schools have redundant classrooms through the diminished school population. It is excellent if schools, both voluntarily and otherwise, get to work in order to install the kind of cheap pool which is in operation in a school in my constituency and about which no doubt the hon. Gentleman knows?

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. We know about forty-six pools under construction at the moment.

Does my hon. Friend agree that swimming pools should be provided by the voluntary efforts of parents and old boys and not at the expense of the taxpayer?

No, Sir; I do not think that that would be possible in all cases.

In Hampshire, nearly three dozen such swimming pools have been provided by parent-teacher associations showing a keen interest in the school, with the local authority making provision for their maintenance and permanent accommodation. Will the hon. Gentleman obtain details of this and circulate them to other authorities?

I am aware of such cases, and my right hon. Friend is making inquiries from certain local education authorities.

asked the Minister of Education what is the nature of his proposed inquiry into primary education; and by whom it will be carried out.

I am considering whether such an inquiry is desirable and, if so, by whom it should be conducted. I hope to make a statement on this subject early in 1963.

Has the right hon. Gentleman observed the last report of the Registrar-General, and does he realise that, after 1947, the highest birth rate occurred in 1960? Therefore, his problem in 1965, or that of his successor from this side of the House, which is more likely, will be intense unless something further is done to provide more teachers for these schools.

We are discussing the question of teachers later. I have studied the report to which the hon. Lady refers. No doubt she has studied the interesting article in the National Economic Review on this subject. The important point is that it is thirty years since the last major inquiry into primary education. I am concerned not merely with the quantitative problem, but with the question of whether we are as well informed as we might be about what happens today in the primary schools.

asked the Minister of Education what further steps he is taking to promote the recommendations of the Wolfenden Committee on Sport.

The Youth Service building programme for England and Wales in the current year has been increased in size from £3 million to £4 million to include projects providing facilities for sport.

While that is gratifying as far as it goes, is not the Minister aware that it is still a good deal less than was recommended by the Wolfenden Committee? Has he had any conversations with the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the other recommendation of the Wolfenden Committee, namely, that there should be a sports development council, a project which was very warmly supported by the present Parliamentary Secretary before he attained office?

I assure the hon. Lady that all these matters axe under constant consideration by my right hon. Friends. At the moment, I am placing the emphasis on the development of sports facilities for young people. The level of grants towards the cost of sports facilities for adults provided by voluntary bodies is £400,000 a year. Next year, 1963–64, the Youth Service building programme will also include sports projects. We must remember that plans for new schools, training colleges and further education establishments in other parts of our building programme include facilities for sport. I assure the hon. Lady that we are keeping this matter in mind as part of the general capital investment programme.

asked the Minister of Education if he will publish in HANSARD a list of the day colleges for the training of teachers which are making provision for married women with responsibilities for children of school age, and give details of the arrangements they make to enable such women to combine attendance for training with the performance of their domestic duties.

I will publish a list of the eight day colleges specially concerned in the OFFICIAL REPORT. These were set up primarily for older students, including married women with children, and their whole organisation and timetable have been planned accordingly. The mainly residential colleges, which now take fairly large numbers of day students, also help married women in every way they can.

Is the Minister aware that there is accumulating evidence that he is losing potential recruits in this respect? A number of married women with young children would become teachers if the colleges had a flexible new programme to provide places for them. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this situation?

If the hon. Gentleman brings any evidence to my notice, I will, of course, consider it.

asked the Minister of Education when he will make a statement on the raising of the school-leaving age.

I cannot at present add to the statement by my predecessor on this subject in the debate on 21st March, 1960.

But does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that unless he makes a decision soon he will not be in a position to implement the recommendation in the Crowther Committee's Report?

The hon. Gentleman will recollect that the former Minister gave a very full statement on this subject. He recognised the conditions which had to be satisfied, and he ended his statement by saying:

"This should enable us, before the end of this Parliament, to make a decision about the school-leaving age."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st March, 1960; Vol. 620, c. 48.]

I also notice and I have previously said that if the Government delay the decision it will be for purely General Election purposes and no other.

I am sorry, but I refuse to start electioneering now with the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will make a statement on the recommendations of the National Advisory Council on the Training and Supply of Teachers and what action he has taken to alleviate the shortage of teachers.

I have told the Council that the Government are ready to consider some further expansion of the training colleges. I am at present studying advice which the Council recently offered me about how this expansion could best be undertaken. Meanwhile, the emergency measures to which I referred in the debate on 30th July last are already taking effect. This year's intake to the training colleges, which was expected to be smaller than the first two intakes to the three-year course of 1960 and 1961, has in fact reached a new record of over 17,000 students.

The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that it is too late to avoid the difficulties in the primary schools, but will he take steps now to avoid the difficulties we had with the first bulge affecting the second bulge which is now entering the schools? Does he recognise that this does mean a crash programme for more teachers?

I certainly recognise that this is by far the biggest problem affecting the educational world at present and I do not feel complacent about it. I am considering very carefully exactly how our investment in training colleges can produce the best possible return in terms of the output of teachers. Nevertheless, I think it was a very good achievement this year that, with no young trainees leaving the colleges, we were able to achieve an intake of 17,000. It was far better than any of us envisaged when we started the expansion programme a few years ago.

In view of the gravity of the position, will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement to the House and tell us what steps he proposes to take?

I cannot add any further to the Answer I gave this afternoon, but I can assure the hon. Member that this is a matter I am examining urgently.

In examining the extension and expansion of training colleges, will my right hon. Friend look closely into the possibility of extending day training courses particularly with regard to education departments of provincial universities, where, I think, it would be much easier to deal with the shortage of teachers and their prospective training in the next five years, than the actual building of training colleges, as a short-term measure?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I can assure him that I am well aware of the fact that when we consider this matter we must bear in mind not merely the training colleges but the education departments of universities as well.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, in view of the large number of families in Cardiff seeking homes who are unable to afford to purchase a house, he will give an assurance that the planning permission given to George Wimpey & Co. Ltd. to develop the Green Belt at Llanedeym, Cardiff, will in no way prejudice the application by the Cardiff City Council to acquire the land in order to build houses to rent.

I have already done so in the letter of 7th November giving my decision on Messrs. Wimpey's planning appeal. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the inspector will get details of the number of homeless families in Cardiff who are unable to afford to purchase a house and who are probably in greater need than any other section?

All these considerations will come out at the public inquiry next week.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will ask local authorities who have large slum clearance problems to supply him with a report of all land standing idle in their areas, its ownership, length of time unused, and eventually planned use.

My Department's circular 37/60, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Lady, asked planning authorities to inquire into unused land in their areas. In the particular case of the northern towns with severe slum problems, the Northern Housing Office which I have recently set up, will be examining all these matters with the local authorities.

Yes, but will the Minister see that land which has been standing unused in a disgusting condition in my constituency is visited by some representative of the Ministry and that a full report is prepared and submitted to him about what its possible use will be?

No, but I assure the hon. Lady that each site will be considered by my Ministry with the local authority to see that it is put to some use, housing or other.

But how are we going to know—how am I going to know—what land has been looked at, what arrangements are to be made about it, and whether the land which can be used for housing will be tried, and what steps will be taken to speed up housing?

The hon. Lady and I share the same purpose, to increase the housing pace in Liverpool. If she cares to discuss this with me in detail I shall be glad to see what I can do to help.