asked the Minister of Aviation when he expects to be in a position to make a statement concerning the placing of further orders to meet the requirements of Transport Command.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence and I hope to be able to give the House more information about an aircraft to replace the Beverley and Hastings early in the New Year.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer. Will he bear in mind unemployment in Belfast and the difficulties which Rolls Royce Ltd. is facing and have another look at the proposals put forward for developing an extended version of the Belfast with the new Tyne V Rolls Royce engine?

We have all these points under consideration.

In considering this very important matter, will the Minister bear in mind that there is considerable unemployment in Aberdeen shipyards, where there has been great success in building ships and other related things? Only last Saturday 800 men were given notice to leave because of shortage of orders. Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to ensure that Aberdeen gets some of these orders?

I must, of course, have regard to the overall employment position in the aviation industry.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether, in view of the rapidly deteriorating employment position in Northern Ireland, he will consider placing a contract for research and development work with Short Bros. and Harland, in order to avoid redundancy in its essential design sections.

As the House is aware, Short Bros. and Harland has an existing programme of research and development work for the Government, including the Belfast and the Seacat guided missile. The placing of any further contracts must depend upon decisions about future requirements, notably for the replacement of the Hastings and Beverley.

Again I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer. Will he bear in mind that two projects pioneered at Short Bros. and Harland, namely, the vertical take-off aircraft and the variable geometry aircraft, are being developed in France and America but appear to be neglected in this country?

There is a later Question about the vertical take-off aircraft. With regard to Short Bros. and Harland's variant of this, the SC.1, I have nothing to add to what I said to my hon. Friend on 19th October.

Will the Minister recognise that the situation in Northern Ireland should be dealt with with extreme urgency? Will he look closely at this matter to see whether work can be put into this factory as a matter of extreme urgency?

I assure the hon. Member that I am well aware of the gravity of the situation. One of the very first things I did when I became Minister of Aviation was to go to Belfast to see the Short situation myself, and I heard much of the debate the other night in which hon. Members representing Northern Ireland explained to the House the importance of the situation.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will lay before Parliament an annual White Paper stating Her Majesty's Government's policy on the future of Short Brothers and Harland in the light of past achievement.

No. Sir. Although the Government has a 70 per cent. shareholding in Short Brothers and Harland, there are also private shareholders. In these circumstances, the laying of an annual White Paper would not be appropriate.

Does my right hon. Friend feel that the present position is entirely satisfactory? Has he any alternative proposals so as to give a greater sense of direction to this firm?

The position is, no doubt, satisfactory as far as the information that is available is concerned. What none of us is satisfied with, neither my hon. Friend nor myself, is the practical situation confronting the Government.

Will the Minister bear in mind fiat the aircraft industry has submitted to a number of amalgamations on the basis that they would provide much more continuity of Government contracts and of employment, that we make aeroplanes in Oldham and that there is now a higher degree of unemployment in Oldham than there has been since 1952? Will the Minister bear in mind the whole question of unemployment, both in Northern Ireland and elsewhere, in relation to a consideration of the contracts, and bear in mind, too, the necessity of keeping the skilled workers there and not losing them if employment falls?

As I said in answer to an earlier Question, I must have regard to the overall picture.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he has now decided to place contracts for the OR351.

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) on 19th November.

While we have every sympathy with the position in Northern Ireland, is the Minister aware that there is a constant increase in redundancy in the aircraft industry in the Coventry area? In these circumstances, will he not at last encourage his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to make up his mind about the OR351 and, in view of the fact that on Friday the Minister for Air said that the whole question was the subject of continuing review between the United States and Great Britain, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance today that, in making the decision to allocate the contract, the emphasis on the American end of it will not be such as to diminish the amount of British employment which would be able to go into the finished aircraft?

The hon. Gentleman will, I am sure, understand that it would be quite reasonable that we should try to get a common requirement with the American Air Force if this were to prove possible. Newspaper reports that an American aircraft is likely to be chosen to replace the Beverley and the Hastings are, I assure the hon. Member, entirely speculative.

While nobody wishes the Government to make a precipitate decision, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that a decision on the OR351 has been pending since the spring of 1961?

Yes, I am well aware of that. Indeed, I think that in another capacity I was instrumental in putting in the original requirement. Several million pounds of the taxpayers' money is, however, involved, and it is natural therefore that the decision should be very carefully matured.

Will my right hon. Friend undertake to do all he can, because of the effect on morale in such firms as Short Bros. & Harland, to expedite this decision?

Yes, indeed. I have been bringing home to all concerned the importance of an early decision if we are to avoid a gap in the front line of the Royal Air Force.

asked the Minister of Aviation when he expects to place an order for the Hawker 1154.

We are proceeding with a project study as the first stage of development of this aircraft as a Hunter and possibly a Sea Vixen replacement. We are backing the aircraft in N.A.T.O. and we hope that other countries will join with us in its full development.

In view of the fact that the N.A.T.O. competition has resulted in a draw and there is a danger that the Americans may acquire our knowledge and develop it themselves, will my right hon. Friend agree that it is vital that Britain goes ahead with a project of this nature and places an order at the earliest possible moment?

We have a very long lead over the rest of the world in this technique. I am sure my hon. Friend will understand that the placing of an order depends, first, upon the successful conclusion of the project study.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, if he wants this aircraft to continue to lead the world, the best thing to do would be to place an order for the P.1127 to get the technique of operating these aircraft and to use them as a shop window in other countries?

As I am sure my hon. Friend realises, we are already, in agreement with the American and West German Governments, producing a small number of P.1127s for experimental purposes. The placing of a production order for the P.1154 must await the conclusion of the project study and later on, if we should proceed to it, of a development contract.

The Minister states that we have a long lead over other nations in experiment and development in this field. This lead can only be interpreted in terms of progress and orders if a firm order is placed now, otherwise the lead will be whittled away.

Yes, but the hon. Member will, I am sure, realise that there are three stages in the placing of an order. There is the project study, the development contract and the production order. At the moment, we are at the project study stage and it is very unwise to leapfrog these stages.

asked the Minister of Aviation what further discussions are to take place with the French Government relating to a supersonic airliner.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the financial aspects of the proposed development of an Anglo-French supersonic airliner.

I have invited M. Dusseaulx, the French Minister of Public Works, Transport, and Tourism, to come to London on Thursday, 29th November, for final discussions on the arrangements for the joint development and production of the proposed supersonic airliner. I hope to make a further statement to the House on the same day.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in spite of the hesitations of certain noble Lords on this matter, it is worth while for Britain, even in conjunction with other nations if need be, on financial grounds to take the lead and to maintain it, and that he can be assured that when this matter comes to fruition it will have the welcome of most of us on this side of the House?

My hon. Friend will, I think, find that the Government are very much in line with his thinking.

asked the Minister of Aviation the estimated annual radiation dose attributable to cosmic radiation which would be received by the crew of an aircraft such as the BAC/Sud Mach 2·2 airliner.

The annual radiation dose would vary according to the routes flown. Our experience of high-level flying is limited, but I am advised that the radiation to which the crew of such an aircraft would normally be subjected is likely to be less than the maximum allowed for radiation workers.

Has the Minister studied the findings of the United Nations Committee on the hazards of atomic radiation for high-flying aircraft, in which it is stated that during a period of intense solar activity the crew might be subjected to as much as 8,000 millirems during a flight of a few hours' duration?

Yes, Sir, we have studied all the relevant information. As I have said, our experience is limited, but we think that the exposure is less than that which is regarded as permissible for people who work on radiation in the ordinary course of events.

Does not the Minister consider that there should be more than thinking on this matter and that there should be certainty before going ahead with the spending of £50 million on this supersonic airliner project?

It is not just a question of thinking. We have a good deal of information. There are, of course, abnormal circumstances like solar flares which can affect the situation, but in our belief the information which we have confirms the statement which I have just made.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many of the staff at the Royal Propulsion Establishment, Westcott, were, respectively, fully or partly engaged on work connected with Blue Water at the time of its abandonment; and how many of these are still working in the establishment.

Seven of the staff at Westcott were working full-time on Blue Water and part-time work amounted to the equivalent of another two. These staff are all still required for important work at the establishment.

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that, after English Electric had to sack 1,200 people following the abandonment of Blue Water, it is a little strange to find advertisements going out over the B.B.C. from his Ministry advertising for qualified electronic engineers for production planning, development and inspection of guided missiles? Should not the economies fall equally on Government establishments as well as on the defence industry?

Where the Government establishments are concerned, I am sure my hon. Friend will realise that some of the members of the Westcott staff to whom I have referred were working whole-time and some of them part-time on the project and that there are a great many other projects in progress to which they can easily and desirably be transferred. In the Government establishments, we are short of people all the time. There is a very small number of people involved. What my hon. Friend has said about announcements being put out is news to me. I will certainly look into the matter.

asked the Minister of Aviation to what extent it is now his policy to permit British firms to cooperate with the French aircraft industry in the development of the projected French nuclear striking force.

I know of no proposal for such co-operation.

Is it not the case that the French Mirage is being powered by Rolls Royce engines? If that is the case, is that not just the same as increasing the nuclear striking power of the French, and is that consistent with the Government's professions that they want to see nuclear power reduced and not increased?

I am not at all sure that the hon. Gentleman is right in his information. Certainly a number of our aeroengines are on sale overseas, and I think there would be no particular bar on their being used for this aeroplane.

Will the hon. Gentleman then let us know definitely whether the Rolls Royce engine is being used to power this French aircraft?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is confusing the Mirage IV bomber with the Mirage III vertical take-off fighter which does use the Rolls Royce engine. The bomber, I think, does not.

asked the Minister of Aviation, if he has yet received proposals from the Transport Aircraft Requirement Committee as to the development of the Skyvan light freighter.

The Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee has advised me that certain aspects of the proposals put forward by Short Bros. & Harland for the further development of a Mark 2 Skyvan cannot be clarified until the Mark 1 prototype has flown. Meanwhile work on this prototype is proceeding.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is hoped that this plane will fly at some time in the middle of December, and can we have an assurance that following the flight by this plane there will be no undue delay in the Committee coming to a decision?

I certainly give the assurance that my hon. Friend asks for. I hope that he is right, but my own personal estimate is that it will be early in 1963.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the result of his consultations with Metropolitan borough councils about a helicopter station in central London.

There have been no further consultations with the Metropolitan borough councils on this subject since the meeting on 2nd March. I accordingly have nothing to add to the Answer given to the hon. Member's Question on 5th March last.

Is it not a fact that the Minister of Aviation has already fixed things with the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who is to issue directions to prevent development of the Nine Elms site which may prevent it from being used as a helicopter station? Does not this indicate that the Government have already decided to press on with this proposal despite the strong representations of Lambeth Borough Council, the London County Council and other Metropolitan borough councils directly affected by this plan?

There is as yet no proposal from either of the Corporations or the independents to operate a scheduled helicopter service in or out of London. If such a proposal is made, there will, of course, be ample further opportunity for all the interests concerned to express their view.

When this plan is formulated, will consideration be given to the varying degrees of noise which emanate from various types of helicopter? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is evident that some manufacturers pay little or in regard to noise factors?

Of course, this must be one of the considerations.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a financial grant and give technical assistance for the development of a Yorkshire airport.

Financial aid will only be given if a proposal meets the requirements of the White Paper on Civil Aerodromes and Air Navigational Services; technical advice is alway freely available from my Department.

Will the Minister bear in mind that millions of pounds of public money have been spent on Gatwick? Should he not look forward, bearing in mind that we need industrial development of the lines of communication in the North and North East, particularly in view of the development of the overseas trade?

I do not think that Gatwick is quite in the same category as the aerodrome to which the hon. Gentleman is referring. It is an international aerodrome serving the whole of the country. Manchester, as the hon. Gentleman will know, has taken over the responsibility for the aerodrome itself.

asked the Minister of Aviation, in view of the fact that arrangements were made for some 484,000 kilograms of cloth from Barcelona to be flown to the Leeds and Bradford Airport and that the aircraft arrived at Manchester Airport on the 30th October, why a permit to land at Leeds and Bradford Airport was issued by his Department for this aircraft.

The permit was issued because the operating company asked for it and there was no reason to refuse. After further consideration, the company decided without reference to my Department, to fly to Manchester. They have now been told that the facilities at Leeds and Bradford Airport would be adequate for their operations and I understand that in future they will go there, weather permitting.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but I hope that he will keep this matter in mind because a number of other flights have arrived at Manchester Airport instead of the Leeds and Bradford Airport?

Indeed, I will keep this in mind. I think that this only arose because of faulty information on the Spanish side as to the facilities available at Bradford. They now know that facilities are quite adequate to enable them to bring their aircraft in to Leeds and Bradford Airport.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Leeds and Bradford are to be congratulated on their initiative and enterprise in building this aerodrome, and will he give it its blessing in every possible way, even if at the moment he cannot make a subsidy towards the enterprise?

Yes, indeed. Everything which increases the aerodrome facilities in this country is very much to be welcomed, and I think that Leeds and Bradford have clone a very good job so far.

Does not the point of the original Question denote that there is need for a better aerodrome than that at present situated between Leeds and Bradford and that Yorkshire needs a first-class international airport? Will the Minister do something about it?

This is a matter for the local authorities in Yorkshire to do the same kind of job that Manchester, Leeds a id Bradford have been doing.

asked the Minister of Aviation what action he is taking by issue of general directions to the Air Corporations to co-ordinate the activity of the British Overseas Airways Corporation, British European Airways and the privately-owned airlines, having regard to the increased competition which will result from the impending integration of Air France, Alitalia, Sabena, Lufthansa and UAT/TAI into Air Union, and the consideration being given by major United States airlines to merging.

I am following these developments overseas with close interest, but have no statement to make at this time.

Will the Minister bear in mind that it is particularly unfortunate that as a result of the Civil Aviation Licensing Act, 1960, and subsequent Government policy, British airlines are now competing against each other, to the joy of their foreign competitors, while all the other foreign airlines tend to amalgamate and increase their competitive strength?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the area of over- lap is in fact very small. B.E.A. have specialised in European short-range runs and B.O.A.C. in world-wide runs. There is some overlapping. This is a problem which I have very much in mind, but it is still a fairly limited one.

Will my right hon. Friend encourage the two Corporations to coordinate their selling organisations outside this country, particularly in the U.S.A.? Can he say whether there is any likelihood before long of encouraging any one of these Corporations to join Air Union, or is it too early to say anything about that?

On the first point, some progress has been made in this direction, although I agree with my hon. Friend that there is room for further progress. On the subject of Air Union, I have nothing to add at the present time.

asked the Minister of Aviation why there is no controlled airspace at Stansted Airport; and when he proposes to offer some protection for arriving and departing flights.

Agreed procedures already exist to ensure that aircraft using Stansted do not conflict with those using the near-by United States Air Force base at Wethersfield. I am considering, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air, whether the problem of overflyers calls in addition for the introduction of controlled airspace or other measures.

When considering these matters, will the right hon. Gentleman recollect that there is no radar at Stansted at all and that the holding patterns for aircraft at Stansted are in what is called a free-for-all area, despite the fact that it is a very important airport dealing with trooping and the training of personnel for B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. and of the right hon. Gentleman's own Ministry of Aviation for licensing? Will he think of those things? In view of the fact that it is now going to be one of the important civil airports for London, will he consider that these safety precautions at the moment seem to reside wholly in the approach controller? Does he think that is sufficient?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, who takes a great interest in all this, will realise that this is a pretty complex question. While safety must be the paramount consideration, we do not want to introduce any procedures which are unnecessary. Therefore, I have to try to strike a balance. The hon. Gentleman will understand that I am not yet in a position to give him a definite answer.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will review the maximum earning allowance of wives of old-age pensioners who are below the age of sixty, in view of the loss to educational and hospital authorities of many useful workers who are at present discouraged by the £2 limit.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the amount of a wife's earnings which is disregarded in deciding whether her husband is entitled to an increase of his national insurance benefit for her as a dependant. I can assure the hon. Member that I am keeping this amount under review.

While acknowledging that a change in the earnings allowance—which, I think, the Minister understands—may require the revision of the existing pensions structure, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that this is National Productivity Year, and that the existing regulations mean that many able-bodied women are leaving useful jobs which certain local authorities very much need done?

We have no evidence that this is causing a shortage of women part-time employees, but I will certainly take note of the hon. Gentleman's point.

I sent the right hon. Gentleman a case.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will take steps to arrange for the pay ment of an additional week's pension to old-age pensioners at Christmas; and how much this would cost.

The answer to the first part of the Question is, No, Sir. I have no power to make such payments, which have always been regarded as inappropriate to a universal system of compulsory insurance. The cost of paying an additional week's pension to retirement pensioners at Christmas would be about £16 million.

Yes, but will not the Minister take steps to obtain this power? Is he aware that on this side of the House we would certainly facilitate his getting it? Since the Chancellor of the Exchequer is making an additional repayment of post-war credits to give some additional purchasing power at Christmas, can the Minister not do his little bit by making this bonus payment, which would be very greatly appreciated?

The Government still agree with what Dr. Summerskill, as she then was, said in reply to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis) on 18th July, 1950, that as a question of principle,

"This would not be a proper provision to be made under a contributory insurance scheme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th July, 1950; Vol. 477, c. 2023.]

Would not the Minister seriously consider this again? From all accounts, and from Press reports today, his Ministry is going to have to concede very soon additional increases to this type of pensioner anyhow? Would he not therefore consider payment for the interim period covering Christmas and the New Year? Could he not really do something which would help to bridge the gap between this and an increase?

No. I am sure this would not be a correct use of the National Insurance scheme. In an insurance scheme which insures for all risks and to which everybody contributes it would not be right to give a Christmas bonus which would go to some beneficiaries and not to others.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the cost of granting £1 a week increase to all those on retirement pension or National Assistance; and, alternatively, what would be the cost of granting El a week increase to all single persons and married couples on retirement pension or National Assistance.

On present numbers, about £340 million a year and about £280 million a year, respectively.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the Labour Party is now committed to an immediate increase of the equivalent of £1 ls. 5d. on a single retirement pension, and that because of this the Government may be forced to make a concession before the General Election? Why do they not do the right thing and grant it now?

The commitment of the Labour Party of which I was aware was not quite that one. It was the one the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) has mentioned in recent weeks and would cost £450 million. This is on top of the £1,100 million which this year will be spent on National Insurance benefits. This would require a great increase in the contributions. I would say to the hon. Member that I do not think it is the Labour Party in opposition which will result in the increasing of pensions by the Government.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the cost of granting £1 increase to all those on retirement pension or National Assistance in the week before Christmas; and, alternatively, of granting this increase to all single persons and married couples on retirement pension and National Assistance.

About £6¾ million and about £5½ million, respectively, assuming that those on either retirement pension or National Assistance or both would qualify.

Has the hon. Lady thought what it means to spend the whole of Christmas week on £2 17s. 6d. plus a bit of National Assistance? Does it not mean going without any enjoyment of anything beyond the bare means of existence?

I recognise the motives of humanity which stir the hon. Member to ask that question, but my right hon. Friend has explained that it is not a proper feature of a National Insurance scheme to give a particular bonus for particular weeks. I would remind the hon. Member that the National Assistance scales did go up by an amount which meant an expenditure of over £20 million a year as recently as September.

If the Minister continues to insist that this money should not be paid from the National Insurance Fund, and if the Minister does realise the hardship of these old people and the pleasure which a little extra money at Christmas would mean for them, why cannot he have it paid from the Exchequer and not continue to hide behind this matter of principle which the hon. Lady has told us about today?

Well, my right hon. Friend is not yet at the Exchequer, but in due course of time he may be.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in the area covered by his London offices are in receipt of National Assistance supplements; and what is the average rent for which allowance has had to be made in the calculation of these supplements.

At 25th September last, the number of weekly National Assistance allowances supplementing retirement pensions in the area served by the National Assistance Board's offices in the administrative County of London was 81,386. Up-to-date information about the average rent of recipients of such allowances is not yet available.

Is it not becoming absurd to maintain a situation where we are paying a pension on which, quite clearly, a very large proportion of old-age pensioners cannot possibly live and we then have to duplicate this administration to pay supplementary benefits? Is the hon. Lady aware that many of us on this side of the House will expect my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) to change this state of affairs next year?

It would seem to be most unwise that because one in every five retirement pensioners needed supplementation one should pay a great deal of money to the other four out of five, who by definition, are not in need for the time being.

Is it not a fact that the supplementation has had to be increased to the extent of many thousands of pounds a week as a direct result of the 1957 Rent Act?

I have no figures which support that contention.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what methods he employs to keep his Department's records up to date.

My Department keeps many kinds of records and employs a variety of methods to keep them up to date. If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind I shall be glad to look into it.

While appreciating the right hon. Gentleman's efforts to keep his Department's records up to date, and while recognising the vast amount of work which that involves, may I ask whether he agrees that a letter setting out the terms and conditions of retirement applicable to people about to retire should not be sent to a person—as in the case of my constituent—who has been dead for eleven years—unless, of course, the Almighty has a voice in the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

I certainly agree with that, but I am afraid it is inevitable that mistakes of that kind can occur from time to time. The hon. Gentleman would be surprised to know how many cases there are of people with the same names; there was even one case of two people with the same name living at the same address.

I can understand the right hon. Gentleman's statement, but this is the third of such letters.

Oh.

Presumably it must have been because the dead man has not been able to inform the Department that he is dead.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the number of old-age pensioners in the Aberavon Division, or equivalent area; and what is the number thereof in receipt of National Assistance.

Statistics relating to the number of retirement pensions are not available for particular areas. At 25th September last, 105 non-contributory old-age pensions, 80 suppplements to such pensions and 1,879 supplements to retirement pensions were current in the area served by the local office of the National Assistance Board at Port Talbot, which comprises the greater part of the Parliamentary Division except for the Porth-cawl Urban District, but also includes most of the Maesteg Urban District. Some of the supplements provided for a household with more than one pensioner.

Does the Joint Parliamentary Secretary realise that in an area of relatively high wages the position of those on the subsistence standard of living, of many of the old people, is more pronounced than it is elsewhere? Is she aware that such is the pride of many of our old people that they will not suffer the indignity of a means test to obtain National Assistance—as in the case to which I drew the Department's attention some months ago? Can she promise to raise the basic old-age pension of these old people so that they will not have to suffer the terrible indignity of having to go through a means test?

I rejoice with the hon. Gentleman that he represents an area of high wages. I disagree with him that many people will not suffer the indignity of National Assistance, for I disagree that it is an indignity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We are slowly breaking down any prejudice against going for National Assistance. We are, indeed, being very successful with it, and there are now one or two more people in the hon. Gentleman's area who are benefiting from National Assistance than last year.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will give the number of contributors, at the latest available date, in the graduated pension scheme.

I regret that the numbers paying graduated contributions will not be known until the records of the first year's contributions on the P.A.Y.E. forms have been fully recorded and analysed.

Is the hon. Lady aware that less than 50 per cent. of the workers are members of the scheme? Does she not think that that condemns the scheme? Will she take steps to improve it?

Our estimate of the number of people who pay graduated contributions is about 11 million, and I do not agree that that number condemns it. Many other people are covered by occupational schemes which it is our policy to encourage.

If the hon. Lady cannot give the information sought by my hon. Friend in one way, can she give it another? How many people have contracted out compared with the number the Government originally estimated?

The number is just under 4½ million. The estimate at the time of the Bill was 3 million.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will give the total amount of contributions paid into the graduated pension scheme up to the latest available date, and the total amount of benefits paid out during the same period.

It is estimated that up to 17th November, 1962, about £261 million was paid into the National Insurance Fund by way of graduated contributions. Over the same period the Fund paid benefits amounting to about £1,800 million, though of course only a very small part of that can have been by way of graduated additions to retirement pension. The precise amount is not available.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will give an estimate of the total number of persons contracting out of the graduated pensions scheme which would create a deficit in the National Insurance Fund.

The material for any such estimate will not be available until the returns made by employers for the year 1961–62 have been fully analysed.

Will not my hon. Friend welcome the largest possible number contracting out under this arrangement and give what encouragement she can?

We are delighted that more and more people are covered by progressively good occupational pensions schemes.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate by how much the current annual contributions to the graduated pension scheme exceed or fall short of the original estimate of such income for this year.

The income from graduated contributions is currently rather less than £20 million a year below the original estimate.

Does this not suggest that more and more people are coming to appreciate that this is not an insurance scheme at all but that it is merely a way of relieving the Exchequer of a national liability which should be its own? Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that more and more people appreciate the nature of the scheme in order that they can get out, and get out quickly?

I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the nature of the scheme is very well understood. The bulk of the contracting out was done during the early stages. There has not been very much lately, but, as my hon. Friend said earlier, a good many more people have contracted out than was originally expected.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) whether he is aware of the large increase in byssinosis in the Lancashire cotton area; and what steps he contemplates to enable claims to be more speedily dealt with;

The number of claimants for disablement benefit on account of byssinosis examined during the year ending 30th June, 1962, was 627; of these 375 were diagnosed as suffering from the disease. The corresponding figures for the year ending 30th June, 1961, were 585 and 374 respectively. Separate figures are not kept for pending byssinosis cases. Every effort is made to see that claims are dealt with as speedily as possible.

Why are not figures kept of applications for pensions? It seems incredible that they are not. My information is that there is a considerable increase in applications, particularly from the Oldham area, which has a considerable spinning centre. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is increasing dissatisfaction with the way in which these cases are handled?

There was some delay in the case the hon. Gentleman refers to because, as he knows, it was complicated and on two occasions went to appeal. But the final decision by the Commissioner was given 39 weeks after the pneumoconiosis medical panel's decision.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that I make no complaint of delay in the case I referred to? It is fair that I should add that at one stage it was postponed for four weeks to suit my convenience. I am concerned with the delay in medical examinations in Oldham following applications. If his Department has no record of the applications, I do not understand how it can tell the doctors when to examine the patients.

I can only add that the average time to clear disablement benefit claims is eight weeks.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, whether he will refer to the National Insurance Advisory Committee the desirability of abolishing the rule under which a woman over 60 marrying a retirement pensioner may be placed under certain disabilities as regards wife's allowance and widow's pension.

The three-year qualifying period applies only to the very small proportion of women marrying at ages over 60 who have no existing title to retirement pension or equivalent benefit. The provision seems to me a reasonable safeguard and I see no grounds for asking the Advisory Committee to review it at this time.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he thinks that the small number of people caught by the so-called three-year rule justifies continuing it? Surely he realises that there can be very few cases of alleged abuse by single women without insurance qualifications of their own marrying dying men in order to get the widow's benefit?

The three-year rule applies whether the widow is under 60 or not. This matter was considered by the Advisory Committee eighteen months ago, and I do not think it would be worthwhile putting it before the Committee again. The rule seems a reasonable safeguard.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners and widows covered by the insurance offices in Stoke-on-Trent are in receipt of National Assistance supplementary benefit.

At 25th September last, current weekly National Assistance allowances granted by the Area Offices of the National Assistance Board in Stoke-on-Trent included 385 supplements to non-contributory old-age pension, 8,386 to retirement pension and 885 to national insurance widows benefits. Some of the supplements to pension provided for a household with more than one pensioner.

Is the hon. Lady aware that this number is continually increasing? Earlier this afternoon she said that her Department is more and more successful in persuading old people to apply for National Assistance. Has she no concern that these people ought now to be looking forward to an immediate rise in the basic pension rather than going through this means test, which the hon. Lady and her right hon. and hon. Friends do not believe is a very real factor in these people's lives?

The hon. Lady's strictures on National Assistance do not encourage people who need it to apply. There are, of course, more on National Assistance in her constituency this year than last year, but part of that increase is due to the attraction of the increased scale rates operating from last September.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many weekly national assistance supplements are presently being made in respect of persons in receipt of unemployment benefit; and what the figure was for the corresponding time last year.

The number of authorisations of weekly National Assistance allowances granted as supplements to unemployment benefit which were current in the Area Offices of the Board on 25th September was 56,208, and 29,333 at the corresponding time last year. In certain cases, the person to whom the authorisation related might recently have resumed work.

Do not the figures show that, despite all that the right hon. Gentleman did at the Board of Trade, unemployment is rising, and in relation to the work that he is doing now, do they not show that unemployment benefit is quite inadequate? What does he propose to do about it?

The supplements from the National Assistance Board have always been available, and it has always been understood that in certain cases there should be recourse to National Assistance to supplement the foundation payments made under the National Insurance Scheme.

But what good is insurance if it does not properly insure?

Many insurance policies do not wholly cover a risk.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many weeks must elapse before a person who becomes unemployed is normally eligible for National Assistance supplementation?

It can be available virtually night away. In normal circumstances the wages that a man has just received are considered as being sufficient for the week following, but he can always have recourse to National Assistance supplementation right away if he is in need.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the average weekly supplement presently being paid to retirement pensioner householders, with and without adult dependant, respectively.

Information about the average amounts of weekly National Assistance allowances actually payable, having regard to the rent, resources and other circumstances of the recipient, is obtained annually from a sample selected early in November, and information about the average supplement paid to all retirement pensioners will not be available for another week or so.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many widows are in receipt of a 10s. pension; and, of these, how many are in receipt of a National Assistance supplement.

At the end of 1961, some 89,000 widows were receiving the 10s. widow's pension as a reserved right from the old scheme. About 5,700 with no other benefit from my Ministry were also receiving national assistance.

Is the Minister aware that these widows in employment are paying 8s. 8d. a week in contributions in order to comply with the regulations so that they will get benefit when they finally retire? Does he not think it scandalous that he should be giving the 10s. with one hand and taking it back with the other? When is he going to deal with the problem and really give these widows something in their own right?

This is a reserved right from the previous scheme. To the extent that they are able to pay their National Insurance contribution out of the 10s. these ladies are that much better off than those who do not have a corresponding benefit either because their husbands were not insured under the old scheme or because they were married after the 1948 scheme came into operation.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that his original reply gives the lie to his answer now in so far as he quoted a considerable number receiving 10s. who are on National Assistance as well?

It is a fact that the proportion of widows in receipt of the 10s. pension on National Assistance is very much lower than the proportion of all widows on assistance.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will instruct his officers that Christmas bonus payments are to be disregarded in respect of the earnings rule as applied to widows, widowed mothers, and retirement pensioners.

I have no power to do so. As my predecessor told the hon. Member on 19th February, decisions in these matters are made by independent statutory authorities.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman take this power? Is he aware how very disappointing it is for widows and retirement pensioners to get a Christmas bonus from their employers and then to lose it through a reduction in their pensions? May this not appear to them to be a piece of calculated meanness on the part of the Minister? Could not the regulations be altered so that reasonable amounts of Christmas bonus could be excluded from the earnings consideration?

This arises out of the interpretation which has been given to "earnings". Under the terms of the National Insurance Act, 1946, earnings include any remuneration or profits derived from a gainful occupation, and, therefore, a bonus has to be taken into account.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will abolish the earnings rule as applied to widowed mothers.

The earnings rule as applied to widowed mothers is kept under continuous review, but I have no proposals to make.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that it is time that there was a review and a decision was taken on the earnings rule? There are no spivs in these cases. The practice of using widowed mothers as revenue raisers is generally regarded as objectionable.

It is not a question of using them as revenue raisers. What it really amounts to is that the widowed mother's benefits form part of the National Insurance Scheme benefits and it would be very difficult to treat them altogether as a special case. Widowed mothers are given special treatment in as much as the earnings limit is very much higher for them than it is for others, and, of course, it applies only to their own allowances and not to the allowances for their children.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his answer is entirely and absolutely unsatisfactory? Does he pay any attention to what hon. Members on his own side of the House say? Is it not possible to find some way of examining the whole position which would have nothing to do with his Department, which is very obstinate and biassed in this connection?

I would tell my hon. Friend, as I have said in the answer already, that this is a matter which is under review, but we must adhere to the general principles of the Act.

Why?

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this matter? He is making a terribly disappointing debut as Minister of Pensions. If he does not listen to what is being said by this side of the House or by his own back benchers, will he read the impassioned pleas that used to be made by the hon. Member for Dumfries?

I do not often reread my past speeches, but I shall do so at the instance of the hon. Gentleman.

Surely my right hon. Friend will not be upsetting the general principles of the Act if he raises the earnings rule considerably further than it is now?

We have an extremely good record on the raising of the limit, and we intend to maintain our record.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate by how much the total aggregate payments to all National Insurance beneficiaries in the first nine months of this year would have to be increased to restore to that sum the value lost by the depreciation of the £ sterling since the announcement of the last increases in benefits.

About £55 million.

Does not this show how very necessary it is to review the basic pensions and the benefits which are paid in order to give these people the real value which they ought to be having? How long are we going to have the same old story about the Tory Party having done better than the Labour Party? Is it not about time these people had justice instead of that story?

On the last occasion when the National Insurance benefits were increased, they were raised by 15 per cent. for the single rate and 16 per cent. for the married rate. Since then the cost of living has changed by about 5·1 per cent.