asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to improve the intersections of the North Circular Road with the Great Cambridge Road. A.10, and Fore Street, Edmonton, A.1010.

Ultimately flyovers will be needed at both junctions. But I cannot say when it will be possible to include them in the road programme. In the meantime, certain improvements will be made at the junction with Fore Street, starting, I, hope, next year. At the junction with A.10 a pedestrian crossing is to be recited so as to reduce delays.

Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this is a main route through from the docks? It passes through a highly congested urban area where there have been no road improvements of any sort. Does he not think that this work ought to be carried out and the major improvements to these intersections made during the current five-year programme?

No. I am sorry, but the advice I have is that, although this is a complicated junction, the fact is that traffic moves reasonably well. I am afraid that we cannot put the flyovers, which we accept are necessary, into the programme for some years to come.

asked the Minister of Transport what information he has as to the proportion of cases where expenditure on road improvements and traffic signals, respectively, leads to an increase in accidents rather than a decrease.

In respect of road improvements the proportion is very small, but I cannot give an exact figure.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some counties at least these figures are very interesting indeed and show increases where there ought to be decreases? Surely there are lessons to be learned, and his staff could learn them, from the point of view of road engineering. There is perhaps still a lack of co-ordination between the police and road engineers.

I quite agree with my hon. Friend that there are lessons to be learned, but, for example, where we resurface a slippery road accidents decrease. Where we resurface a normal rural road and realign the bends, accidents increase. There are lessons to be learned. Quite what those lessons are I do not yet know.

asked the Minister of Transport if he has decided the future of Marlow Bridge; and if he will make a statement.

I have now received the views of the highway authorities on the proposals to which I referred in my Reply of 1st August, 1962, to my hon. Friend. I will consider them as quickly as possible.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although the Marlow Council and indeed the local authorities welcome the proposal that the by-pass for Marlow should be brought forward in the programme, there is nevertheless a very serious problem affecting the bridge itself. It is deteriorating rapidly and is getting into a very dangerous condition. Unless something is done very shortly there will be no passage across the Thames at that point.

I am not too sure about that, but the reply of the Buckingham County Council to our proposals has just been received. It is dated 29th November. The reply from Berkshire was received a little earlier. Both replies are generally favourable to our proposals but with qualifications which we must examine urgently. I must say, in view of these replies, that it seems possible that the hitherto divided views of the local interests will now become reconciled. If we can reconcile the amenity and local interests with efficiency, we shall have done a good job.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult those who pass under the bridge as well as those who go over it? There is a serious hindrance to the proper navigation of the Thames.

Yes. I will certainly do that.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the confusion at present caused at a distance to motorists by "No Left Turn" and "No Right Turn" signs being of the same colour, he will make one of a different colour from the other.

No, Sir. I am not aware that the present signs are causing confusion to drivers generally, and I do not think that different colour signs would help very much.

As the Minister usually rides a bicycle he probably would not be aware that this causes confusion. Is he aware that a motorist going down in the right hand lane sees a sign that he thinks indicates no right turn? He continues down, only to find a blockage because people are, in fact, turning to the right. That causes a blockage of the fast lane to the right, which could easily be avoided if the signs were of different colours.

I should like to look at the OFFICIAL REPORT for that supplementary question, as it is rather difficult to answer now. It rather confused me as to whether I was riding a bicycle or driving a motor car. But the Warboys Committee is examining signs, and if the right hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to let me have full details of what he has in mind, I will see that the Warboys Committee considers it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, despite what he says, there is a large body of opinion that these signs are confusing? Can he give any indication as to when the Committee will report?

I hope that it will be early in the New Year but, again, I hope that the House will not hold me to that date. The Warboys Committee is working extremely fast. but as this will be a comprehensive review of all signs in the country it is essential that it should be done properly.

Will the Minister give the matter rather more sympathetic consideration than he appears to be doing at the moment, when he seems to reject the proposal out of hand? In particular, will he ask the Road Research Laboratory for its comments, because this seems to be a matter in which the Laboratory's views might be exceedingly valuable?

Yes, Sir. The Road Research Laboratory is represented on the Warboys Committee.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will state the basis for determining the priorities for road improvements on the A.12 between Ipswich and Great Yarmouth.

In deciding what works are to be done on A.12, as on all other trunk roads, we have regard primarily to the volumes of traffic, especially heavy industrial traffic, and the extent of any overload; to road safety and to any special or local factors.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, whilst I appreciate that those are the sort of conditions that have to operate, on the stretch between Ipswich and Great Yarmouth traffic does not alter very much but the road priorities do, and a lot of local people feel that the priorities given to some stretches of road are incorrect, while other stretches of road, which need improvement far more, are left in their present state?

One of the difficulties in our work is that every local authority considers that its own road schemes should have priority over those of every one else. This makes life very complicated and difficult for us in the Ministry of Transport. Nevertheless, we try to judge all claims by as objective tests as we can provide, and those tests are referred to in my Answer.

But this is not very positive —[Interruption.]—well, my hon. Friend's Answer did not seem to convey anything. Is my hon. Friend aware that Great Yarmouth is the most popular holiday resort on the East Coast? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is not often that I make a constituency point. Is my hon. Friend aware that at certain times of the year there is an enormous volume of traffic on this very inadequate road? This is one of the things he mentioned in his original reply. Will he, therefore, give urgent consideration to the priorities mentioned in the Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior)?

My hon. Friend's supplementary question shows how difficult it is for us to agree on these things. His view as to which is the most popular seaside resort on the East Coast did not receive universal approval in the House —neither do the views of any local authority about road priorities and improvements receive universal approval. I have answered the Question, and I have set out what we take into account in these matters. It does not mean that because we take those things into account, we do not agree that some roads need improving, as, for example, the one that has been mentioned.

asked the Minister of Transport how the cost of maintenance of a reinforced concrete road compares with that of a flexible road; and by how much the concrete section of M.1 has shown lower maintenance costs than those of other sections.

A comparison between the maintenance costs of the flexible and concrete sections of M.1 can only be usefully made after many years of use. With the current motorway specification, however, the cost of maintenance of either form of construction will be small, and there should be little difference between them.

Do not the extensive repairs on the M.1 in the last few months indicate that the bitumen-asphalt sections do not stand up to heavy lorries going at 40 miles or 50 miles an hour as well as do the concrete sections? Although concrete may not have quite such a perfect surface, would it not be better in future to have a concrete surface?

The evidence does not support that view. It is very dangerous to over-simplify this question of the maintenance costs of concrete and black top. First of all, whichever material is used, the difference in maintenance cost is very small and, secondly, it takes many years to ascertain. What my hon. Friend must bear in mind is that road maintenance does not depend merely on the top dressing, but upon soil conditions, drainage and many other factors. I can assure my hon. Friend that what is really important in a road is the soil condition, the foundation and the drainage, rather than merely the top dressing.

But would not my right hon. Friend agree that the concrete section of the M.1, which is of the same depth as the bitumen section, has really stood up to the traffic very much better?

Yes, but it is on different soil.

asked the Minister of Transport by what date the M.3 motorway to Basingstoke will be completed.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the increasing congestion of traffic on the A.30 highway, he will accelerate the commencement of the M.3 motorway; and if he will state an approximate date for the start of works.

I am aware of the congestion on A.30 and, with this in mind, I put in hand a survey of the route for M.3 earlier this year. The complex technical and statutory processes which must follow this will take several years to complete. The place of M.3 in my programme will be fixed when this preliminary work is further advanced.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the A.30 now carries just as much traffic as the A.1, and has a heavy commercial traffic to Southampton? Therefore, does he not think that the M.3 should have a higher priority than roads now being constructed in the Midlands?

I will look at the assumption my hon. Friend makes, that the A.30 carries as much traffic as the A.1.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the re-routing of traffic from the south-west end of Theobalds Road, Bloomsbury, has aggravated congestion in High Holborn, east of the Kingsway junction; and has created an entirely new traffic-jam on the west side of Red Lion Square; and if he will take steps to ensure that such re-routings, diversions, and other experiments will not have the effect of merely transferring, instead of reducing, traffic-jams.

The present re-routing, which is not yet final, was designed to reduce traffic-jams and it has already improved traffic flow on most of the main routes through the area. The difficulties which remain in High Holborn and Red Lion Square will, I hope, be eased when the improvement scheme is completed early next year.

While welcoming the assurances which the right hon. Gentleman has given in reply to the first part of the Question, may I ask whether he will kindly address himself to the second part, which he has not answered? It is of a more general nature, not referring to the Holborn area alone but covering, for instance, the Hyde Park Corner scheme about which, as he knows, there has been much criticism to the effect that he has transferred the traffic-jam and not abolished it.

This happens with every improvement that takes place. If there is a bottleneck at one intersection and it is dispensed with, it means that the traffic piles up on the next intersection, which has then to be dealt with. This problem has to be tackled in that order, The only alternative is to tackle every intersection simultaneously, which cannot be done by any Government.

Should it not be tackled within the framework of a general plan, which apparently the right hon. Gentleman does not have? Did he read Mr. Pakenham's article in the Observer last Sunday?

I will send the hon. Gentleman a great number of Press notices which have been issued showing the benefits which have been derived from the schemes in operation. The curious thing is that in London as a whole it has proved of benefit.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will state the total volume of road development proposed for the County of Durham and the expenditure involved for the years 1963–64 and 1965.

The estimated total expenditure on new road construction and major improvement in County Durham is about £4·1 million in 1963–64 and £5·6 million in 1964–65.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. Could he not speed up road development to provide additional employment? If he encounters labour or material difficulties, would he make contact with the contractors and trade unions concerned to organise labour and material forces so that we might get ahead with this?

This is being speeded up considerably in the North-East. I replied to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) on 27th November and said that the effect of the speeding up of the road programme will be to increase the total expenditure on major improvements and now construction schemes in the North-East from £6 million this year to almost double next year and in the succeeding years. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is great acceleration of the progress being made in that area.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the Fremington Parish Council wrote to the office of the divisional road engineer of the Ministry of Transport, in July 1961, raising the question of trunk road lighting at Fremington, and that a bill of quantities was prepared by his Department in January, 1962, but that, despite letters from the Devon County Council and the hon. Member for Devon, North, his Department has not reached a decision in this matter; and whether he will take action to prevent further delay.

My right hon. Friend's Department gave formal approval to the Council's current proposals on 30th October, last. The delay, which I greatly regret, was due to quite exceptional circumstances which I have explained to the hon. Member, in a letter which I have sent him today.

May I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply and also for his courtesy in giving me a full explanation of the circumstances, which were due to a regrettable cause? Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this matter has been hanging fire for two years? If the illness of one member of his Department is able to throw the rest of the whole Department out of gear, does it not suggest that the administrative arrangements could be improved? Could the hon. Gentleman assure us that this sort of thing will not happen again?

I do not want to elaborate why this happened, as I have explained the matter already very fully. It is quite apparent to me from studying the facts of the matter, as I have now done at great length, that this sort of situation is unlikely to repeat itself as it was principally because of the disability of the official concerned. Normally this sort of thing would not happen at all.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will sanction the erection of traffic lights at the junction of Ely Road and Western Avenue, Llandaff; and what safety measures he proposes to take to protect children crossing Western Avenue to reach their school.

We have received no request for signals at this junction. But my right hon. Friend is advised that neither on traffic nor safety grounds would the provision of signals be justified here.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a particularly dangerous spot where there has been a series of fatal accidents? It appears to me to be so from my own knowledge. Is he aware that nothing has been done, while the residents of the district are in great fear for children crossing this road which has very fast traffic on it? Will the hon. Gentleman stir up his local officials to take some safety measure in this respect?

I am sorry to disagree with the hon. Member. The information I have is that it is not a particularly dangerous stretch of road. The accident rate since 1960, I am told, is one fatal accident, an aged pedestrian knocked down in October, two serious accidents and three slight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Although deplorable, that does not form the sort of accident record we expect where pedestrian crossing facilities are asked for, but if the city council asks us to look into it we will, of course, do that.

How many accidents must there he before the hon. Gentleman regards conditions as dangerous? Is not the list he read out an unpleasant list? This is a most dangerous spot. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will give further attention to matters I have raised today.

asked the Minister of Transport how many miles of anti-dazzle fencing have been provided on dual-carriageway roads in the United Kingdom; and how many miles are still in use.

About 6½ miles in England and Wales, including the 2 miles experimental length on M.1. All are in use.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but will not he reconsider the question of putting this anti-dazzle barrier on M.1? Will not he listen to the users of this road who in the great majority believe that it is a safeguard? If it could be also embodied in some sort of crash barrier, so much the better.

My hon. Friend has referred to what users say, but I am looking at the evidence of users scientifically with the help of the Road Research Laboratory rather than by hearsay. I do not think that I could do fairer than that. There are a number of lengths of dual carriageway road where a second carriageway has been provided behind the boundary hedge of the original carriageway. By allowing this hedge to remain, it forms an anti-dazzle screen without damaging amenities. I repeat that I am looking scientifically at the evidence of users.

asked the Minister of Transport when he will approve a contract for the extension of the M.1 at its London end, from Berrygrove Roundabout to Page Street, Hendon; and how long it will be before construction commences.

I hope to be able to invite tenders for the contracts to build the proposed southern extension of M.1 to Page Street, Hendon, in the second half of 1963; but this depends on the progress made with the remaining statutory processes. Approval of a contract would normally follow about four months after the invitations to tender and construction should begin almost immediately thereafter.

Will my right hon. Friend try to expedite this matter? Is he aware that the extension would replace a very nasty stretch of road on which there are many accidents?

I shall try to expedite it as much as I possibly can, but it is a laborious job to complete the statutory processes. Parliament has enacted the Statutes and I must obey them. It is difficult for me to give a better forecast at this stage.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the need for a pedestrian crossing in Leamington Road, Coventry, between the junction of Daventry Road and Leamington Road and Stivichall Croft and Leamington Road; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

It seems doubtful, from a preliminary investigation, if there is sufficient justification for a crossing here. No formal application for one has been made to us by the city council.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the local ratepayers' association has been pressing for this crossing for several years? Es he aware that this road cuts through a neighbourhood unit and that many of my constituents have to cross the road to shop, to go to church or to go to school and that they have been told that, if there were a fatal accident there, the local authority would then do something about it? Could not something be done before a fatal accident occurs?

If the city council makes a formal application for a crossing, the case will be considered on its merits, as is always done.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the considerable unease in London about the delay which takes place in the Ministry in the provision of pedestrian crossings? I refer particularly to the need for them in my own constituency. Can he do anything to speed up decisions in the Ministry?

I am not aware of any complaints about delay in the consideration of these cases. If the hon. Gentleman has cases in mind and will let me have particulars, I shall investigate them. There is certainly no universal complaint, to my knowledge.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will amend the parking meter regulations to provide facilities for motorists to obtain small change in neighbourhoods where parking meters are installed.

No, Sir. I do not think it unreasonable to expect persons who intend to use parking meters to carry the appropriate change.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that there is a growing number of people who, when wanting to park their cars but finding that they have no sixpences, have, after going away for just three minutes to get change, returned to find themselves—to use a colloquial expression—"shopped"? This has happened to me. Is it really fair, because of the lack of elasticity in the regulations, for people to be fined 10s. because, on just one occasion, they forget to have a sixpence in their pockets?

I am sure that the whole House agrees that my hon. Friend's is a most genuine case, but there are cases which are not genuine. If what my hon. Friend suggests were done, it would be harder to detect meter feeding, of which there is too much already, and it would provide a ready-made excuse for those who seek to avoid payment. I do not include my hon. Friend among those, of course. It would make the regulations difficult to interpret and to enforce.

Will my right hon. Friend include one for me as well? Also, will he consider stopping the continued spread of this very ugly form of street furniture and introduce instead the French carnet system?

In London, for which I am responsible, the answer to that question is "No." In the rest of the country, any local authority, including any in my hon. Friend's constituency, may introduce the disc system if it wishes because there is a provision in the Road Traffic Act, 1960, for that purpose. As I have said, the answer in respect of London is "No," but, if we can find a better method for controlling street parking than the meter system or something more in conformity with decent amenity, I shall be very willing to consider it.

Would it be possible for parking meter attendants to have a stock of change for the convenience of the public, so that larger coins could readily be changed for this purpose?

No. I think that the parking attendant has a difficult enough job already and I should hesitate to impose further obligations on him.

With the greatest respect to my right hon. Friend, I did put this case to the City of Westminster, which was good enough to tell me that mine was an innocent case. The point I put to my right hon. Friend is that there are many simple people who cannot put their case to the authority. Will he look at the matter again? It is very hard on people with small means if, when they have just parked their cars, they have to go away for three minutes, just as I did, and then come back with coins available only to find that they have a ticket. Moreover, the traffic warden has no right, as the one in my case wanted to do, to use his own common sense in the matter.

asked the Minister of Transport how much money would be saved each year in the motorway construction programme if gradients of 1 in 15 or of 1 in 12, respectively, were accepted instead of the normal 1 in 30.

Little, if any, money would normally be saved by accepting such gradients and it would, in most cases, then be necessary to provide extra "crawler" lanes on the steeper gradients to enable traffic to flow freely. Such gradients would add seriously to the cost of operating commercial vehicles on the motorways.

Does not the performance of commercial vehicles in tackling gradients improve every year with advances in manufacturing techniques? Is not the cost of excavating and filling in one of the heavy costs of motorway construction? Has the Minister's Department really studied the matter as authoritatively as he seems to suggest?

Yes, we have studied it authoritatively. We have even been to America to study experience there. The Americans have found that, if there is a gradient of 1 in 15 or 1 in 12, they have to provide a crawler lane which costs £37,000 a mile in one direction. This extra lane is required so that the heavy traffic which goes slowly on the inside lane may be overtaken by other traffic on the outside. Since the heavy traffic goes slowly on a steep gradient, it is necessary to provide this extra lane, and experience in America has shown that it is not worth while. We have studied the matter closely.

asked the Minister of Transport how many accidents there have been on M.1 in the last four months; and how many of these have been attributed to road repairs on the southbound carriageway.

The most up-to-date figures available relate to accidents in Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire since the end of August when the bulk of the road repairs started. During this period, there were 83 accidents on the M.1 in these counties, 49 of which involved injuries, including five fatalities. Twenty-two of these accidents, none of them fatal but nine of them involving injuries, may, on present information, be attributable to the road repairs on the south-bound carriageway.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the lighting and road signs where these repairs were taking place were adequate? How many of the accidents can be traced to insufficient warning of the repairs both at night and during the day?

Until inquest verdicts are given, we cannot say positively whether the accidents were in any way attributable to road works. I have sent an official along the M.1 several times since the works started in order to see that the lighting was adequate. I think that it is, but, if the hon. Gentleman has in mind a particular instance where it is defective, I will look into it again.

Is not the inadequacy of the lighting here a result of the dazzle from the traffic coming the other way, there being no anti-dazzle barrier in the middle? That is the danger I find driving down this stretch of road.

If the hon. and learned Gentleman will tell me of the particular place he has in mind, I will see that an official of the Road Research Laboratory goes there and makes scientific tests at that point.

Will my right hon. Friend pay particular attention to the lighting problem? Does he realise that, quite often at night, a string of red lamps placed alongside road works looks very much like the rear lights of heavy vehicles moving slowly along the road? Could some other form of lighting be put with them?

I will consider that suggestion.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will construct Narborough Road South, Braunstone, Leicestershire, as a dual carriageway before it becomes the main artery for traffic using the proposed feed road to the Leicestershire section of M.1; and if he has given consideration to the views of Blaby Rural District Council in this respect, contained in their letter to him of 28th September.

We have carefully considered the views of the Blaby Rural District Council but, as has been explained to it, it will not be possible, because of the statutory and other processes which must be followed, to complete the dualling of Narborough Road South before the M.1 extension to Mark-field is finished. We could not justify keeping the Enderby link from the motorway closed until the work on A.46 has been completed. The work will, however, be arranged to minimise any inconvenience caused.

There has been real concern expressed by the police as well as the local council about the delay in construction of this feeder road. Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is the practice of his Department, so far as possible, when constructing new roads simultaneously to construct the necessary feeder roads, and if that is indeed the policy of the Department, will he be good enough to tell me what has happened on this occasion?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will study the letter I wrote him on 22nd November in which I went into all this at some length. I do not think I can pronounce as a general policy that we do not construct roads unless we can at the same time provide feeder roads. Everything depends on the local traffic situation.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the number and total tonnage of cargo ships, both oil and dry together, now lying up in British harbours and estuaries; how this compares with five years ago; and what plans he has in mind for enabling these ships to be put into commission again.

There were 101 British vessels totalling 685,000 gross tons laid up for lack of employment in British harbours and estuaries at the end of October, 1962, compared with 38 vessels of 154,000 gross tons five years ago. The surplus of tonnage is world-wide and I welcome the present series of international discussions which are taking place about it among shipowners.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these figures have been increasing annually? We have now reached the highest figures since the war. Does he not think that his Department is very complacent to allow these figures to rise and do nothing to prevent an increase in the total idle tonnage in our estuaries and ports?

No I think that many people can blame my Department for doing some things, but not for complacency. This is an international problem. The United Kingdom has 3½ per cent. to 4 per cent. of her tonnage laid up. Liberia has 6 per cent. and Panama 8 per cent. Therefore, relatively speaking we have not done too badly. However, we want to make it better if we possibly can.

I welcome the fact that the Ministry of Transport is taking action, but can my right hon. Friend say what the next move is in consultation with the genuine European maritime powers?

My hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary concerned with shipping had a meeting this morning with the Dutch Minister for Transport and Shipping, and I am hoping that we shall be able to co-ordinate the whole of the genuine European maritime powers in this respect.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if he is aware that in recent years the British Transport Commission (Docks) have granted leases or otherwise disposed of sites to industrialists at Barry Docks involving future commitments by firms and companies for years ahead; and if he will give consideration to this in assessing the recommendations of the Rochdale Committee's Report;

I will take the considerations my hon. Friend mentions into account in considering the recommendations of the Rochdale Committee about the South Wales ports. We have first to decide in principle on the major recommendations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that with the encouragement and help of the British Transport Commission many firms have entered into these commitments in recent years? They have thereby expressed their confidence in the future of Barry Docks. Is he also aware that in the last year there has been a most significant increase in dock traffic at Barry which has been promoted by companies engaged in such different activities as oil, fruit importing and grain importing? The confidence has been shared by Lord Robens of the National Coal Board, who has said that he sees a good future for Barry Docks. Will my right hon. Friend therefore prefer the inspired advice of industrialists and of a nationalised industry to the unimaginative proposals of the Rochdale Committee?

I do not accept the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I do not think that the Report of the Rochdale Committee is without imagination. In all this local interests will be fully consulted and what my hon. Friend has recorded in HANSARD will be taken into account.

As these Questions deal with the Rochdale Committee's Report, may we have an assurance that early in the new year the House will be given an opportunity to debate the whole Report?

That is not a question for me, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but I certainly would not dodge the issue on a debate. I personally would be quite delighted to take part in it. I can assure the House in general that no time has been wasted either in setting up the Rochdale Committee, in the Committee making its Report, or in asking interested parties for their comments. No time will be wasted in the Government making their decision.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Rochdale Committee hardly visited Barry? It was there only an hour. How on earth can the Committee have formed a balanced assessment of a dock on such a short visit?

It is not for me to say how the Committee did it. I shall look very carefully into what the Committee said. If my hon. Friend has any comments or any recommendations to make, I should like to have them so that they can be taken into account before the final decision is made.

Is the Minister aware that the publication of this Report has had a detrimental effect upon industrialists? Those who wished to come to the ports of South Wales have now deferred their decision. Those who have industries in South Wales ports cannot extend them because they are afraid that something will be done. It is absolutely necessary that the Minister should make a definite statement as to his intentions regarding the Rochdale Report. Will he make a statement as quickly as possible?

I have already said that I will do that, but quite a number of interested bodies—for example, the National Coal Board, the petroleum industry and the T.U.C.—have not yet made their comments on the Report. It would be most discourteous of me to go ahead and make a Government announcement until I have received their comments and considered them most carefully.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will speed up plans to lay down a nuclear-powered merchant ship, and so enable unused resources to be employed.

Any decision to build a nuclear merchant ship must depend on progress with the current research programme and this is already proceeding at a good pace.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this matter of the development of a nuclear-powered marine engine has been going on for many years now, having been started by the Galbraith Committee? Will he keep in mind the statements which are being made on the Clyde by directors of some of our leading shipbuilders that if the Government do not take action very quickly to increase shipbuilding, or the possibility of building new ships and expanding the industry, damage will be done on the Clyde to the teams of workers and the techniques and we shall lose men and capacity which we may not recover in years to come?

The question of shipbuilding is distinct from the building of a nuclear ship. The first job is to find a suitable reactor for a ship. That is what we are working on hard and fast now, and with some hope. There is no point in building a ship with an unsuitable reactor merely for the sake of building a ship. As soon as we can get a suitable reactor we shall consider as a matter of urgency the building of a ship.

Will my right hon. Friend consult with his colleague the Minister of Power, who is constructing or has constructed seven nuclear power stations, all uneconomic, at a cost of over £500 million which shows that there is something to be said for pushing on before we have the right reactor?

A great many consultations take place between the Minister for Science and myself on this matter. We are both convinced that, first, we have to find a nuclear reactor which will be economic and of some use to our shipping and shipbuilding.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that its economic capacity will never be demonstrated until it is actually put into a hull and the ship puts to sea?

I quite agree, but a number of things are involved. First, we can decide whether it is hopelessly uneconomic or whether it is economic before we put it into the ship. The ship is the final test for the reactor.

Is it not a fact that the decision has already been taken as to what reactor is most suitable? I certainly have information on that. Would it not be rather funny if I were to announce what reactor was the most suitable and not the Minister?

My hon. Friend announces a lot of odd things from time to time and we all take notice of them, but the choice is between two reactors, and that is what we are considering now.

asked the Minister of Transport what new steps he is taking to prevent a decline in the British merchant shipping industry.

I have little to add to what was said by my hon. and gallant Friend on 28th November. But shipping will recover only when freight rates improve, and this depends either on international agreement or on expansion in world trade. Meanwhile, we keep in close touch with the industry and help wherever we can.

We have been getting Answers like that for about nine years. We have heard about flags of convenience, the subsidising of ship construction, and all the rest. Cannot we have from the Minister some drastic new measures to help the British merchant marine? In the Indian Ocean, as a result of Indian Government policy, our coastal trade has been affected. In the North Atlantic, the Great Lakes and all over the world British merchant shipping is being hit very hard by the actions of other Governments. Will not the Minister do something to try to save the British merchant fleet?

The hon. Gentleman must not exaggerate. Things are difficult, but in the last nine years our shipping and shipbuilding industries have had some quite prosperous times. He must remember that our Merchant Navy is now bigger, more modern, faster and more efficient than ever before. Also, we now have a Shipping Advisory Panel with a partnership between the Government and the industry which is closer than ever before. We have considered all those questions, including the matter of flag discrimination. The point is that we must be certain that whatever action we take will do us more good, on balance, than harm. It is quite possible to do ourselves a good deal of harm by taking precipitate action. If the hon. Gentleman has a specific point which he thinks we ought to consider, I shall be grateful if he will put it to me.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the amount of new orders booked by British shipyards in the last 12 months; and what this represents as a proportion of the average annual output of British shipyards in recent years.

In the 12 months to 30th September, 1962, shipbuilders in the United Kingdom booked new orders totalling 563,000 gross tons. This represents 40 per cent. of the average tonnage completed annually in the last five years.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept this as a danger sign for British shipbuilding? What action is being taken internationally? What discussions have there been with our E.F.T.A. partners, and what discussions have there been, for that matter, with the Six about our sihipbuilding? Apart from that, what action is the right hon. Gentleman taking with other Ministers concerned about the provision of alternative work in the shipyards themselves?

The question of alternative work is for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. As regards discussions, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary was having discussions this morning with the Dutch Minister of Transport and Shipping. We discuss these matters with other Governments continually. I was in Paris last week where the subject was discussed. I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no lack of discussion. The point is that the facts of life are that there is too much shipyard capacity in the world, and this country cannot altogether escape the consequences. However, next Wednesday we are to meet the Shipping Advisory Panel, and any ideas which the Panel may have will be carefully considered. We have one or two ideas ourselves to discuss with it.

The right hon. Gentleman has not mentioned E.F.T.A., with which we have a close association. Has the matter been discussed within E.F.T.A.?

We do not discuss it with E.F.T.A. as a whole, but we discuss it with some of the individual Governments or representatives quite frequently when they come here. For example, one or two of the shipbuilders of Norway will be here on Friday of this week.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the latest copy of Lloyd's Register shows that there are 2,400,000 tons of Britisih shipping over 20 years' old? If the Government could apply their mind particularly to incentives to get British shipowners to replace their tonnage which is over 20 years' old, this might well provide about two years' work for British shipbuilders.

I shall put that proposal before the Shipping Advisory Panel when it meets next Wednesday.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any special proposals for dealing with the decline in the Scottish sihipbuilding industry.

Shipyards throughout the country are facing difficulties, and I have no special proposals for those in Scotland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shipbuilding industry in Scotland is in a very serious position indeed, particularly on Clydeside? Does he remember that, about a year ago, he said that the time to become serious about shipping and shipbuilding would be after the Recess and that that Recess is now some two or three Recesses away? Has he become sufficiently serious to tell Cunard to make the reassessment of the position in regard to the Q3 which he promised us nine months ago so that we may use the £18 million subsidy provided by the House to arrest the decline of British shipbuilding?

The question of any new Cunard vessel is entirely one for the Cunard Company, not for the Government. We carried out our pledge, and the Cunard Company decided not to go ahead with the project.

Does the decision with regard to the Q3 lie wholly with Cunard? Are we to understand, after Parliament has agreed to a sum of money being used, that a private company can hold up a decision of Parliament?

The hon. Gentleman is misinterpreting the Act which the House passed.

No, I am not.

asked the Minister of Transport what instructions or advice are issued by the British Government to British ships sailing in the Cuban interception area.

Navigational warnings were broadcast from Portishead Radio repeating special United States naval advice to ships in the Cuban area.

But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are something like 2 million square miles involved in each of these two interception areas? Does he not think that the time has now arrived, in view of the duration of this blockade, when he might approach the American Government to see if, in times of peace, Great Britain could get freedom of the seas?

I do not think that is the real difficulty. Only one British ship was involved in the search and that was very easy.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the modification of driving licence regulations for pedestrian-operated milk floats.

Yes, Sir. I have come to the conclusion that the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts applying to pedestrian-controlled mechanically-pro- pelled milk floats are not justified by the needs of road safety. I therefore propose to lay before the House regulations made under Section 254 of the 1960 Act to provide that these vehicles shall no longer be treated as motor vehicles. One effect of this will be that their drivers will no longer need a driving licence.

I very warmly thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, and for his co-operation in this matter. Is he aware, however, that it is now more than four months since I first raised the subject; and that, in the meantime, my constituent, Mr. David Crane, has been suspended from his job of pulling a milk float? Will the Minister therefore tell us when he will introduce the regulations? Will he live up to his claim to be a lightning conductor, put a real spurt on, and introduce these regulations before Christmas, as otherwise my unfortunate constituent will drag on in his dilemma indefinitely?

For the hon. Lady, I will speed as fast as I can.

asked the Minister of Transport what further steps he has taken to ensure that smoke is not emitted from vehicles on the public highway; if he is satisfied with the present position; and if he will make a statement.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend, the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Hopkins) on 28th November.

But is not the Minister aware that almost every time we undertake a long journey we still see this black smoke being emitted? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Even if it is impossible to police all the miles of roads, is there not some other way in which action could be taken? There might be voluntary reports to chief constables, six such reports perhaps leading to prosecution—or something like that.

This is a difficult problem, not because the will is not there but because it is scientifically difficult to invent a device to measure the smoke emitted, and so secure a successful prosecution in the courts. We have had very great difficulty. We have gone to court, and the lawyers—as the House will be surprised to know—have argued at length about it, and there have been very few successful prosecutions. The difficulty is to get a device that will scientifically measure the smoke emitted, but in my original reply I have said that, pending such a device being invented, a Regulation has been put into operation. Special spot road checks are being held this year, and the measures taken are having good results. The difficulty is that a spot road check catches a number of drivers in the first half hour, after which there is a system of signalling from those drivers to other drivers which means that we do not catch as many in the succeeding half hour.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there has been an increase in prosecutions since the Regulations were made?

I could not say that without notice, but I know that we observed 83,000 lorries. Of those, 9,800 were emitting black smoke; 6,200 were stopped, of which 132 were taken out of service immediately. There were 3,900 vehicles threatened with prohibition from carrying goods unless they later satisfied a second test. In addition, 4,000 warning letters were sent. I agree that it is not a lot, but it is the best we can do without a measuring device. I only hope that we can get a measuring device, and then there will not be any lack of enforcement.

As all vehicles seem to emit smoke, and the big vehicles seem to emit more than the small ones, has my right hon. Friend considered the possibility of compelling public service and commercial vehicles to take their exhaust pipes out to the top, instead of to the rear?

I have gone into that very carefully with the Road Research Laboratory. The difficulty is that diesel fumes are heavier than air, and if they go out at the top they fall to the road. What happens is that not the motorist or cyclist just behind but others further behind get it all. Therefore, on balance, it is better to have the exhaust pipe for diesel fumes lower down than higher up.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking by advertising, public-service announcements on television, and other means, to dissuade motorists from driving to West-End shopping streets to inspect the pre-Christmas decorations.

I have appealed to the public through the Press to make full use of public transport, and to avoid the rush hours.

But has the Minister had personal experience of the hellish chaos of the traffic-jams caused by these grossly premature celebrations, or does he just slip through the traffic-jams on his bicycle? In addition to the rather ineffective appeal he has so far made, would he for the future consider asking the shopkeepers and their associations not to start Christmas until, at any rate, half-way through Advent?

I think that Christmas is not the time to be as gloomy as the hon. Gentleman is. It is a time for the children.. Quite honestly, this display in the West End is very expensive to mount and ought, therefore, to be spread over quite a period. I would very much regret it if, at this stage, it were necessary for a Minister to interfere, and I certainly regret that the Opposition—or the hon. Member—should say that these lights should not be installed in Oxford Street. Of course I have been in the traffic-jams caused thereby but, generally speaking, they are at night, and not during the day when business is being conducted.

Would it not be simpler, in order to allow as many people as possible to look at these illuminations without inconvenience on a large scale, to put up decorations in the Mall—and other places like that—which is near enough to the West End to make a night out worth while, without causing all this congestion, and people getting in the way of buses?

I doubt very much whether the occupants of the various clubs in Pall Mall would like lights outside their premises; or would like to pay for them. These lights are paid for by the shopkeepers in Oxford Street to attract trade.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the valuable anti-dazzle qualities of the yellow bulb in headlights; and whether he will recommend the adoption of this proven aid to safer night driving.

No, Sir. Scientific investigation does not support the view that yellow headlamps which give the same seeing distance as white lamps cause less dazzle.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, whatever scientific opinion may decide, the users of yellow lights—in France, for example—find them of great benefit? Will he pay less regard to science in this matter than to hard, practical experience?

This is a common fallacy. It is not possible to make straight comparison between the French yellow beam and the British white beam, for two reasons. The first is that the French yellow bulb has a lower intensity than the British bulb. It appears, therefore, less dazzling, but only because the light it gives is of a lower intensity and the lower intensity itself has disadvantages to drivers if they have the yellow bulbs they have in France. Secondly, the dipped beam of a European headlamp has a slightly sharper cut-off than the British lamp when dipped, but it is coupled with a reduction in seeing distance with the European lamp. For these reasons, it is not really possible to make a simple comparison, such as the hon. Member has made.

Yes, but has not the time arrived when my right hon. Friend should cease to shelter behind the so-called experts when everyone with common sense—and, after all, we are all experts on motoring—knows that yellow lights are more restful to the eyes? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think everybody with common sense knows this. Cannot we arrange for yellow lights with the same sort of range beam as the white beam to be tried by ordinary people of common sense, not experts?

All I can say is that it is true, as my hon. Friend says, that everybody is an expert on traffic, but, unfortunately, all their opinions differ from one another.

But seriously, if the Minister's scientific advisers reject the yellow lighting system for the reasons he has given us, what have they said of the whole development of polarised lighting? There has been a great deal of research done into polarised lighting. With what results, I should like to know?

It gives no light at all.

I am not asking the hon. Gentleman, I am asking the Minister. Is not polarised lighting a possible way of dealing with this dazzle problem and the fantastic anti-dazzle fencing referred to in another Question? What is really being done about this? It seems to me a scientific method of approach which ought to be considered.

If the hon. Member will put a Question down about polarised lighting I will try to answer it, but I think most of the dazzle would be avoided if headlamps were properly adjusted.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet received detailed proposals for increases in the pensions of railway superannuitants.

Yes, Sir, and we are now considering them.

Will the Minister make sure when he receives the proposals, that the railway superannuitants get terms not less favourable than those given to Civil Service pensioners?

As I have said, the proposals have now been received, and they are under consideration by my right hon. Friend. I think I prefer not to make any further statement at this stage.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any possibility exists that such a statement may be made very clearly before Christmas, with retrospective payments?

As I have said, I prefer not to make any further statement at this stage, but I will certainly ask those concerned to take note of that suggestion.

Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that the proposals which have been made by the British Transport Commission, which are very welcome, will not be whittled down by my right hon. Friend?

I think the House knows the way in which my right hon. Friend approaches these matters. No one would call him heartless.

I asked for an assurance.