asked the Minister of Education how many mixed training colleges, women's training colleges and men's training colleges are still without full-time lecturers in chemistry or physics.

Full-time lecturers in chemistry or physics are concentrated in 44 general colleges where considerable numbers of science teachers are being trained for secondary schools: of the remaining 79 colleges, 26 are mixed, 50 are for women and 3 for men. Some have lecturers taking chemistry or physics with another subject and almost all offer main courses in biology, rural science or general science and are staffed accordingly.

The Minister is getting vaguer than his predecessor, but do not these figures worry him? How does he expect proper teaching of science in secondary modern schools, for example, if there are not far more specialist teachers in chemistry or physics in the training colleges?

Of course, many of these colleges, particularly the women's colleges, are making their main contribution on the primary side, and it is natural that their courses should be less specialised. Our policy has been to try to concentrate the valuable teaching equipment and specialist training staff on specialist training for secondary schools. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of science teachers being trained for science work in general secondary schools.

In view of that agreement, can the Minister say how many are being adequately trained in the training colleges for science teaching in the secondary schools?

I can say that, to reduce the shortage of science teachers, we are hoping for an enlarged graduate supply, especially as much of the university expansion has been on the science side. From the training colleges, the recent numbers entering high-level specialist courses in science certainly will help—and the number is about 385 entrants this year as against 350 last year—and so will the 500 or so students who enter for ordinary courses in chemistry and physics each year.

asked the Minister of Education how many posts in colleges of advanced technology remain unfilled; in what subjects the vacancies occur; and what new steps have been taken to fill these posts.

There are now 1,856 teachers in post and 188 vacancies as compared with 1,671 in post and 215 vacancies last February. Of the unfilled posts 94 are in engineering, 48 in mathematics and science and 46 in other subjects. The colleges are continuing to use all possible methods of recruiting new staff, including the appointment of part-time lecturers from industry.

What recent steps has the right hon. Gentleman taken both to encourage industry to release technologists and scientists part-time, and also to persuade them to second on short full-time loan this category of teacher?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me notice of that question, and I will communicate with him. I would say that over half the vacancies I have mentioned are in the higher grades of principal lecturer and above. I think that this deficiency to some extent reflects the high standards which the C.A.T.s must set in making appointments and the overall demand for people of this calibre.

asked the Minister of Education what estimate he has made of the number of graduates of British universities who, after receiving grants from public funds for their education, take posts in other countries immediately or soon after they leave university; and if he will make a statement.

I have no such estimate. I understand that the University Grants Committee, in consultation with the University Appointments Boards, is collecting information about the occupations which graduates take up, including information about those who go abroad. This survey, which will be published in the spring, will not, however, show how many of the graduates had received grants from public funds.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, since I tabled this Question, I have received a great deal of correspondence from all over the country containing an enormous number of suggestions that people receiving this help from public funds should enter into some form of undertaking that they will work in this country for a prescribed number of years? While not necessarily agreeing about this, I should like to know what my right hon. Friend thinks about it.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the way in which he put his supplementary question. I do not entirely agree, for two reasons. First, it may well be that, in the interests of this country in the longer run, people should do some job abroad and return to take up appointments in this country, but, more important, 90 per cent. of all undergraduates are assisted to some extent out of public funds, and while this may leave them with some sense of obligation, I do not think we should regard this as imposing an obligation on them. We have our system of public education because our community wants it that way. I should not feel happy about any suggestion that this imposes an obligation.

Will my right hon. Friend resist the well-intended suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) and agree that the fact of undergraduates going abroad after com- pleting their training, whether to America or to the Commonwealth, brings us nothing but dividends in the long run?

In fairness to my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower), I would point out that he was merely passing on suggestions which had been made rather than giving his own views. There is, however, a great deal in what my hon. Friend has suggested.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent in the last two years more pupils have been staying on at school to do sixth-form work with the intention of undertaking university courses.

In the educational year 1961–62, 92,000 secondary school pupils entered the first year of a sixth form course, 66,000 entered the second year and 15,000 the third year. I am unable to say how many intended to enter a university.

Is not the Minister aware that the figures for this year already show that an increasing number intended to enter university but that many were desperately disappointed to find that the chances of entering a university were getting more difficult? Without making too much of the general point, would not the Minister, in view of the widespread dismay amongst teachers, parents and children about the frustration of not being able to got a place at university in spite of getting two or three passes at A-level, press his colleagues in the Government to have an immediate review of the chances for university education?

The hon. Member is going rather wider than his Question and he has a later one down to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. All I will say in answer to the hon. Member now is that it is a mistake simply to relate demand from the sixth form of schools to university education. One must think of higher education as a whole. It is important to remember the part that the colleges of advanced technology, the regional and area colleges and the training colleges also have to play in providing full-time higher education.

Will the Minister remember that in Scotland we are short not only at university level, but at the higher technological level, and that he has supported this?

As the hon. Member knows, the Scottish aspect of the matter is not within my direct responsibility.

asked the Minister of Education how much of the £6 million increase in expenditure on minor works has been allocated to Kent for the current year; and what percentage this represents of the Kent County Council's request.

The Answer to the first part of the Question is £90,000; and to the second part, about 41 per cent.

is my right hon. Friend aware of the very great problems in Kent, where we have many old church schools which are being converted, and that the fact that the council itself may be allowed to do minor works of under £2,000 really amounts to nothing? Cannot my right hon. Friend give the county council a far more generous allocation on its request?

My hon. Friend has raised the matter before and I accept that Kent is one of those counties with a good many old voluntary controlled schools. I can, however, give my hon. Friend this piece of comfort. Kent submitted its list in two parts, the first consisting of projects of high priority, and the allocations which I have made should enable the Kent authority to carry out seven of the eight projects on its priority list.

In view of the misleading impression that 'the Parliamentary Secretary created in reply to a supplementary question of mine, probably inadvertently, will the Minister confirm that in 1960–61 the value of minor works started was £21 million and that the still has a long way to go before he restores the minor works programme to this level? Does the Minister realise that, in view of the need to accelerate this programme and in view of the good work that can be done particularly in rural and some old urban schools, his first priority should be to ensure that the minor works programme is restored as soon as possible to the 1960–61 level?

The hon. Member is not quite right about this. My figure for 1960–61 is £18 million and one has to remember that the minor works programme excludes projects costing less than £2,000. The hon. Member is not, therefore, comparing like with like.

Will the Minister look at the reply given by his predecessor, then Sir David Eccles, on 10th May and provide a reconciliation between that figure and the one that he has now given us?

I have, of course, seen all previous replies on the matter. I was simply trying to answer the question put by the hon. Member.

The Minister will forgive me if I find it difficult to follow his figures. Is he aware that the cuts produced by Circular 13/61 in Kent cut the already inadequate minor works programme by three-quarters to £400,000 and that the present allocation does little or nothing either to restore those cuts or to increase them? In view of the increase in population in Kent as a result of electrification, overspill, drift, and so on, will the Minister reconsider the allocation?

The fact that Kent should be able to carry out seven of the eight projects to which it gave higher priority will at least mean that there can be quite considerable progress in that authority.

asked the Minister of Education what expenditure on minor capital works the Kent County Council proposed in 1960–61 and in 1963–64; and what sum he has accepted for each year, respectively.

The authority proposed £875,900 for 1960–61 and £879,350 for 1963–64. Its allocations for the two years were £455,000 and £260,000, respectively. The allocation for 1963–64 does not have to cover projects costing less than £2,000 whereas that for the earlier year did.

This vast cut in the allocation to Kent is absolutely disgraceful. Will my right hon. Friend look at the matter again?

We have already dealt with Kent in the previous Question. These matters are not easily discussed at Question Time, because one has to be so careful to compare like with like. The allocation to local authorities for 1963–64 is considerably smaller than for 1960–61, partly, for example, because we now make a bigger allocation to English aided and special agreement schools. That follows directly from the Act which was passed with the approval of the whole House in 1959.

This bears no relation whatever to the minor works, mentioned in an earlier supplementary question, to the church schools which are now taken over. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

I shall welcome a debate on this matter on the Adjournment. That will enable me to deploy my figures at greater length than is possible at Question Time. I hope that before we come to the debate on the Adjournment—[Interruption.]—I am entitled to answer this—

On a point of order. Is it in order for the Minister to pursue his reply when his hon. Friend has given notice that he will raise the matter on the Adjournment?

Precisely nothing is in order. The hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells) departed from the established practice in the proper form of words and made a speech in giving notice. The Minister was wholly out of order in replying after that stage.

asked the Minister of Education the number of sixth-formers in South Wales who, having failed to obtain a place at a university this session, have returned to school.

I regret that the information is not available.

In view of the frustration of a large number of children in South Wales, will the Minister take steps to discover what is the situation? Does he realise that the acid test of university expansion is whether, as the years go by, boys and girls with the same qualifications have a better, or at least an equal, chance of entry to university on application than their predecessors have done? Can he give an assurance to the Welsh school leavers in 1965 and 1970 that if they have the identical qualifications of their predecessors in 1951 or 1955, they will be able to enter university?

That information could be obtained only by an approach to the headmasters of secondary schools with sixth forms and would impose a disproportionate amount of work. One must not look simply at the universities. The number of full-time and sandwich first-year students taking advanced courses at the Welsh College of Advanced Technology was only 195 in 1959–60, but 268 in 1961–62.

Do I take it that the Minister cannot give any assurance to the school leavers in 1965 and 1970 that if they have the same academic qualifications as their predecessors had in 1951 or 1955, they will be able to enter university?

As the hon. Member knows, in the 1960s we shall have not only the expansion of university places of 35 per cent. in five years, which is the Government's target, but also a considerable expansion of the colleges of advanced technology. We are also getting ahead with teacher training expansion and expansion of the technical colleges, too. It is a mistake to think of the problem solely in relation to the universities.

Since it is clear that a number of boys and girls in the sixth forms who are entitled to go to university will not get places this year and that the position will be cumulatively worse next year, will the Minister treat as a matter of urgency the provision of an alternative for the sixth formers who are qualified to enter university but will not get there?

I fully appreciate the anxiety which is felt on this matter in all parts of the House. This is to some extent a problem which results from the success in expanding the sixth forms. My concern is that when Questions are asked in the House, the whole field of full-time higher education should be looked at and not only the universities.

asked the Minister of Education (1) what will be the relationship between the proposed Certificate of Secondary Education and the General Certificate of Education O Level examinations;

I am still considering the proposals of the Secondary School Examinations Council in its Fifth Report but, as I understand the recommendation which the hon. Member has in mind, the Council intended to give no more than general guidance as to the standard of the examinations.

When the Minister is considering these recommendations, will he take two points into consideration? The suggestion that, if a person takes subjects in G.C.E.—or, to put it the other way round, in the Certificate of Secondary Education—he cannot also take the same subjects in the other examination will be a too rigid rule. Will he also consider the other recommendation that there should be 20 per cent. of the school population considered good enough for G.C.E. and 20 per cent. of it considered good enough for the Certificate of Secondary Education? Will not this put our children in great difficulty, because they cannot move up or down if these percentages are strictly adhered to?

Of course I will bear all those points in mind. I can tell the hon. Lady that I know that the Certificate of Secondary Education Standing Committee of the Council, with the help of my Department's Curriculum Study Group, is giving a great deal of thought to the relationship which should exist between the two examinations. May I say here and now that I entirely share the view of the Council that if the examination is offered it should stand on its own feet and not just be a pale watered-down imitation of the G.C.E.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most educationists will be relieved that he has an open mind on this matter? Does he realise that if these examinations in practice were to become mutually exclusive it would have a disastrous effect on secondary education?

I shall bear all these points in mind. I deliberately have not made any public speech on this subject, because I think that much thought is needed before any firm declaration of Ministry policy is made.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if we have too many certificates of educational qualifications, those who are unable to obtain any at all will eventually feel themselves social outcasts?

This is a point that concerned very many people when the Report was originally received. On the other hand, I think that there are many factors to take into account, and the really important point is to ensure that the new examination stands on its own two feet as something of value and does not simply attempt to be a pale imitation of something else.

asked the Minister of Education what consideration he has given to the future availability of places in grammar schools for boys and girls, respectively, in Malvern and West Worcestershire; what proposals he has received from the Worcestershire Education Authority for the building of a new grammar school in that area or the enlargement and modernisation of the school at Hanley Castle; and if he will make a statement.

I understand that the Worcestershire local education authority is reviewing the whole question of grammar school places for Malvern and the surrounding districts but that it will need firmer indications of future population than are yet available before it can reach conclusions. In these circumstances the authority has not submitted to me any grammar school proposals for the 1964–65 school building programme.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it may be some time before the future population trends in that part are known, owing to the delay in deciding on the future local government organisation, the building of new towns, and overspills, and the like? Is he aware that, if the decision upon whether there are to be enough grammar school places in the area for the children that are there now is to wait upon all that, there will be very grave frustration and many children who would be deserving of places will not be able to obtain them? Will my right hon. Friend therefore urge the Worcester education authority to come to a decision and ask for his approval on it?

I am sure that the authority will take notice of what my hon. Friend has said. I will certainly keep in touch with the authority about this, though it is for the authority in the first instance to make proposals. It is fair to say that the general secondary school at Malvern covers a very wide field of abilities. I have visited it. It is an excellent school. My hon. Friend is quite right in saying that one must bear in mind those children who can gain from the atmosphere of a grammar school. I will certainly think over what is said and consider whether there is any action I can properly take.

asked the Minister of Education what was the number of first appointments made in primary schools this year; and how this compares with the corresponding figure for the previous year.

One thousand, three hundred and eighty-seven, compared with 6,464 in 1961. The decrease of 5,077 was a consequence of the reduction of the output of the training colleges, resulting from the introduction of the three-year course in 1960.

I appreciate the reason for this disastrous fall, but does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it is particularly unfortunate that this should have coincided with the first year of the second bulge entering primary schools? In view of this, will he make an immediate statement on his programme with regard to the training colleges, because the applications now for places in the training colleges are being considered? Unless he makes a statement immediately, it will not have any practical effect. We need a drastic increase in the number of those admitted to the training colleges.

I have said in the House before that I personally think that the training colleges have had an outstanding achievement in admitting nearly 17,000 for this year, the year in which for the first time we have had three separate years of entry into the colleges. The figures of admissions next year will be bigger again than the admissions this year as our programme of expansion continues. With regard to those who have not got places, the fact that there are less than 1,000 people with first-class qualifications who have not got in is very much better than many of us would have dared to hope for some months ago.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are dealing with the current year? Unless he makes a statement now, many applicants who would otherwise qualify for training college education will not get it. There is a burden upon him to make a statement now about the increase in the number of places at training colleges, otherwise the opportunity will be lost. We know, as he knows, that the bulge will continue for at least the next three or four years.

I can certainly make the statement, as I have made it in the House before in answer to Questions, that we shall push ahead with the expansion programme which has already been planned as fast as we can.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to enable education authorities to ascertain the size of the problem of autism in children in their respective areas.

Psychiatrists working in child guidance clinics are trained to recognise autism and other forms of psychosis, as are school medical officers qualified to examine children who appear to suffer from a disability of mind. The first need of the psychotic child is medical attention. This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health. It is not yet possible to assess the extent of the demand for educational facilities.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that education authorities which are already willing to assist in this matter maintain that it is a very difficult task for them to undertake on their own? Is he willing, when they express the need for assistance in ascertaining the size of this problem, to give them some assistance by the Ministry?

Local education authorities which provide educational facilities for these children clearly need to work in very close association with hospital authorities. Teachers provided by L.E.A.s are employed at the majority of existing hospital units for the care and treatment of psychotic children. However, I will bear in mind the point my hon. Friend has made, but this is essentially a matter for co-operation between the education services and the Health Service.

asked the Minister of Education what research he is conducting into the teaching methods most suitable for immigrant children.

I am not conducting any specific research, but a group of Her Majesty's inspectors are giving regular attention to the best methods of teaching English to immigrant children.

Is it possible that the deliberations of Her Majesty's inspectors will be made available before the beginning of the next academic year, because this is a problem of the very greatest urgency?

I should not like to give a date, but if the hon. Gentleman would like to write to me or raise a debate on a suitable occasion I should be glad to give him such information as I can on this question. In some areas children who need English lessons are collected in a central class. In others they are being taught individually. Some authorities are employing what one might call peripatetic and other special teachers for this kind of work. I shall be glad to give the hon. Gentleman any information I can.

asked the Minister of Education what action he is taking to establish pilot schemes in the teaching of Russian in primary schools since the publication of the Annan Report.

I am considering the possibility of organising, jointly with the Nuffield Foundation, a pilot scheme for foreign language teaching in primary schools. This experiment is unlikely to include Russian, but one of its objects will be to establish whether more pupils would be likely to learn a second foreign language, including Russians, in the secondary schools, if an earlier start were made with a first foreign language.

Is the Minister aware that a pupil's imitative linguistic ability may be at its height between the ages of 8 and 12 and there is every reason for teaching the Cyrillic alphabet during the primary school period?

This is an interesting point which I should be pleased to study further. On the whole, the general feeling I have encountered is that primary schools can best help by preparing the way for the introduction of Russian at a later stage. I know that there are others who feel like the hon. Member and I have a completely open mind on this question.

Can the Minister tell us why he puts another language, which I think would be French, in preference to Russian, since Russian may be very much more useful at the end of the child's life than French may be?

The hon. Lady is on a perfectly fair point. Mainly for scientists and for others a knowledge of Russian and the work being done in Russian is going to be of crucial importance. I am told that where French is taught by certain means to very young children they can act in a French play within quite a few months, even if they have no academic knowledge of French grammar. I am not sure whether the same could happen with Russian. I think that there are real doubts about this. In other words, we know more where French is concerned than we know where Russian is concerned. I repeat that I have a completely open mind on this subject.

How does the Minister explain the fact that Greek has been taught to little boys with considerable success for many decades?

I am bound to say that people may hold different opinions as to the amount of success with which both Latin and Greek have been taught to certain boys at school. The Report of the Annan Committee suggests that our main efforts for the present should go to teaching Russian in secondary schools catering for abler children, but I must emphasise that this is a subject which needs to be studied and considered further.

asked the Minister of Education what steps have been taken to see that the children of school age from the caravans on both sides of the A.2 trunk road near the Laughing Water Restaurant, about two miles outside Rochester, attend school; and what have been their results.

Representatives of the local education authority visited this site yesterday and found one child aged 8 not attending school. School places are available for children living here but enforcement is difficult because they move so frequently.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that when a representative went there yesterday most of these families had already moved on? Is he not aware that this winter hundreds of these families will be moved from place to place day by day and will consequently be unable to send their children to school because there is no place within the law? Is he not aware that all the children of the 50 families of gypsies on my camp at Cobham are going to school? These families are begging to go there, but there is not any place for them. The limit is reached. What is he going to do about it?

Before the hon. Gentleman gets too indignant with me, I think that he should consider the point of view of school attendance officers. Any school attendance order must name the particular school to be attended. If a child is constantly on the move, for whatever reason, it is difficult to name a suitable school. That is the difficulty I am under.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman, who had a smile on his face, realise that what they want is a place to stay? Then the children will go to school. What will he do to get them a place to stay? He should speak to his right hon. Friends next to him with a view to getting these places. Then these children will go to school.

I think that there is a Question down to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government on this matter today. However strongly we feel on these matters, we must have some regard to how the administrative machinery works. I am bound to say that I think that the problems of school attendance officers faced with this question must be recognised to be very real.

asked the Minister of Education the number of temporary non-qualified teachers in maintained primary and secondary schools; and what was the corresponding figure for 1960.

Returns from local education authorities show that there were 3,615 temporary teachers in maintained primary and secondary schools on 1st October, 1962. The corresponding figure for 1st October, 1960, was 3,098.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these are disturbing figures. We recognise the difficulty of providing sufficient teachers, but none the less it is disturbing that these are pupils awaiting entry into college who are accepting the full responsibility of teachers. Will he consider this as a matter of policy and see what teaching and other responsibility these pupils are being required to undertake?

Yes. As the hon. Gentleman knows, an increase in temporary teachers was to be expected in 1962 as one of the ways in which the authorities could offset in part the loss of output from the training colleges this year. I am aware of the undertaking that was made, and indeed embodied in Circular 6/59, to review the conditions for the employment of temporary teachers not later than 1963. I intend to carry out such a review.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what progress has been made by the Kent County Council since 1st August, 1962, in securing the proposed 10 sites for gypsies and other travellers; what are the prospects of securing other sites during the next six months; and how many are expected to be ready for occupation by next autumn.

I understand that the Kent County Council has suggested 10 sites and that the district councils concerned have been examining these and possible alternatives. The county council hopes that at least five sites will be available by next summer. Progress in implementing the scheme may, however, be affected if there are local objections to the sites proposed.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary agree that there have been no sites promised yet? Is not this a disgrace, after all the other promises that have been made over past months? Will he beware of the fine words of the Kent County Council which tries to buy time? Is he aware that that council has been offered a site but it has found an objec- tion to it which, if it is sustained, means that there will never be any sites obtained because there are no perfect sites?

I am not aware of the details of the site to which the hon. Gentleman refers. If he will send them to me, I will look into the matter. I would remind him that I held a meeting of representatives of the county councils concerned in the Home Counties on the 13th of last month and discussed and reviewed the progress made. I am satisfied that the county councils appreciate the urgency of the problem and that they are using their best endeavours to see that sites are provided. The Kent County Council was specifically informed on 28th November by my right hon. Friend of his concern and asked when the necessary sites would be available.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he has done. Is he aware that the site I am referring to is in the area of the Mailing Rural District Council, which is anxious to make its contribution in solving this human problem?

I will look into that.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will amend the provisions of the Clean Air Act to allow local authorities to supply efficient coke-burning stoves, without any increase in cost and charges, to householders in smoke-controlled areas, so that they can satisfactorily burn the grades of coke which the gas boards supply to merchants as smokeless domestic fuel.

Where supplies of smokeless fuels suitable for open fires are inadequate, my right hon. Friend is prepared to consider using the existing grant provisions of the Act to encourage the use of stoves. He does not consider it necessary to amend the Act for that purpose.

May I take it from that reply that the financial provisions will allow coke-burning stoves to be put into these houses and the other grates to be taken out without any increased cost either to the local authority or to the domestic consumer?

As I understand the position, the proportion of the expense borne by the Exchequer and the local authority remains exactly the same whatever the type of stove. The criterion here is whether or not there are adequate supplies of appropriate solid fuels for burning on open fires.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware that mobility of labour is being obstructed by the Rent Act; and if he will amend the Section of the Act which decontrols a house on a change of tenancy.

No, Sir. A return to control would only make it more difficult for anyone to find a house to rent.

Does not the Minister realise that a man living in a rented house today is as tied to it as though it were a tied cottage and that the Rent Act has destroyed the possibility of choice of house? Does he understand the predicament of an unemployed worker who cannot get a job except by moving with his family to another town, which means leaving a controlled house for a decontrolled house at a rent three or more times as much?

I do not for a moment deny that we want a great deal more accommodation to let, but the hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise that houses are empty for people to move to only if, when the previous tenants move out or die, the landlord does not immediately sell them. Under the rent restriction Acts, landlords almost invariably sold houses which were vacated. Now, about four out of five houses which are vacated are kept in the market for rent, though, I agree, at higher prices. Therefore, since the Rent Act, there has been relatively more accommodation to rent.

Yes, but on the Minister's own reasoning, a man might have been able to buy a house on mortgage, on the "never-never", with a reasonable mortgage repayment, but now such payments are twice or three times as high as they were, with the result that he is blocked from doing anything in that way.

No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman always seems to forget that the paying capacity has gone up with the general level of prices in most cases.

Does the Minister realise that the paying capacity has not gone up comparatively with the rise of rents since the Rent Act and that the survey of his own Ministry showed that out of a block of houses decontrolled under the Rent Act fewer had become available for rent and more were remaining empty?

No, the hon. Gentleman is not quoting accurately. I have Professor Donnison's report on this in which he says that, compared with before the Rent Act, four out of five houses now are still available to be rented when they are vacated.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in view of the worsening unemployment situation, he will advise local authorities to expedite their housing, slum clearance and public works programmes; and whether he will give grants and loans for this purpose.

The 1962 White Paper on Public Investment already provides for additional investment for these purposes, and I am willing to let local authorities with urgent needs build as many houses as they can. There will be no difficulties about loan sanction and the normal housing subsidies will be payable.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that and for some of the admirable statements he has made in his speeches in the House, but may I ask whether he realises that many local authorities are many years behind in their slum clearance programmes? Will he take really active steps to make them appreciate the situation and alleviate unemployment in their own areas while, at the same time, carrying out the programmes which he himself has been urging upon them?

Yes, Sir.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the real reason why local authorities in this position are not building more? It cannot be shortage of labour if there is a lot of unemployment. Is it the high rents which they have to charge? Is it shortage of building materials, or what?

I am grateful for the way the hon. Gentleman puts his supplementary question. It is wrong to assume that unemployment in pockets necessarily includes unemployment among the skilled craftsmen on which building depends. In each area the scope for building depends always on the same things: management, labour, land, and rent-paying capacity. The emphasis in each area varies. I understand that in the hon. Gentleman's area there is some difficulty about land.

Has the Minister considered in this context approaching contractors responsible for building these dwellings and also the trade unions, particularly in the building trade, in order to make arrangements, through their cooperation, to organise a skilled and unskilled labour force in order to expedite the building of houses?

I do not wish in any way to mock what the right hon. Gentleman says, but that is entirely the function of management, both public and private: to organise the skilled and unskilled labour resources available. There must be a drive from the local authority concerned in public enterprise housing, and in many cases local authorities have scope, I believe, for further drive.

Having regard to what the Minister said about the shortage of labour in the building trades, is he aware that, following an increased allocation which he made on Tees-side, there were no less than 18 tenders for the work? Is there not still a considerable excess of building capacity in the North-East which is not being used and which shows no signs of being used under his present policy?

It is encouraging that there is such a capacity for work, because otherwise prices would tend to go very much higher, but I must warn the House that there is still in the country as a whole a shortage of the skilled building craftsmen on which the building programme still largely depends until we have the addition of industrialised building systems to help.

Is the Minister aware that the Goole authority recently admitted that it was eight years behind in its slum clearance programme, while, at the same time, its 50 per cent. increase in unemployment is partly due to a shortage of building contracts? Will he intervene in this particular instance?

We have agreed to Goole building 71 houses this year, but the council has not even got a tender in for that number yet.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what consultations he had with the Monopolies Commission before deciding to release the British Oxygen Company from obligations as to its price and contract policy imposed as a result of recommendations by the Commission.

None, Sir. The Commission's recommendations were based on inquiries made more than six years ago. I am not authorised under the 1948 Act to ask the Commission for advice now about changes which have taken place since the completion of its Report unless I make a new reference under that Act.

Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that, since he asked the British Oxygen Company for these assurances, its share of the market has fallen only from 98 per cent. to 95 per cent.? If the right hon. Gentleman really thinks that that is a good reason for releasing the company from its obligations, is not he making a mockery of his attitude to monopolies in this country?

Not at all. The changes which I announced by means of an Answer to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) show that no less than 80 per cent. of British Oxygen's customers are still protected by the undertakings previously given.

At a time when, by the Transport Act, the House has given the right to make free charging arrangements and privacy of charging to nationalised industries, is it not appropriate that the same facility should be given to private enterprise?

Even more than that, I say to my hon. Friend that what I have been able to announce demonstrates the efficacy of the Monopolies Commission's work in this respect because, after the introduction of the undertakings which were adhered to by the British Oxygen Company, effective competition has emerged, and we can now see the effective degree of competitive enterprise in a field which was formerly monopolistic.

Does the right hon. Gentleman really say that a company which controls 95 per cent. of the market ought to be free to charge what prices it likes?

The right hon. Gentleman, whose intelligence I appreciate, fails altogether to realise that the release from the undertakings applies only to the large consumers taking over 12,000 cubic feet per annum. Eighty per cent. of British Oxygen's customers are still protected by the undertakings to which the company still adheres. Competition now is effective in regard to the large customers, and that is where relaxation is most appropriate.