asked the Minister of Power, in view of the fact that the seven nuclear power stations being commissioned between 1962 and 1966 are unlikely to generate electricity as economically as the conventional stations commissioned in the same period, how much of the £500 million to be spent on nuclear stations could have been saved if conventional stations had been built instead.

To provide the same conventional generating capacity would cost about £360 million less. The capital cost of the nuclear stations includes the cost of the first charge of fuel.

As there is a very considerable discrepancy in the two capital charges, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is convinced that the "know-how" obtained from operating these seven nuclear stations is worth while, bearing in mind that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport is not persuaded that there would be much advantage to be gained from the "know-how" of operating a nuclear reactor in ships?

We believe that, with the experience gained from building nuclear power stations, the cost of generating electricity by nuclear and conventional means is likely to break even in about seven or eight years' time. That would certainly not have been possible if we had not built a succession of nuclear stations. Therefore, I think one must balance the extra cost of generation which we are incurring because of this programme against the possibility that the generation of electricity after 1970 will be cheaper.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the nuclear power station which is to be built at Sizewell in my constituency will have many advantages as a result of what has been learned in the construction and operation of those already built?

Certainly. The capital cost of the power station to be built in my hon. and gallant Friend's constituency, which will be commissioned in about three years, is considerably lower per kilowatt than that of the first stations at Berkeley and Bradwell.

Does the Minister's reply to the supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Dorset. West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) mean that the calculation of break-even point is now different? Earlier this year, he told me that break-even point would come in 1967, that is, in only five years. Will he bear in mind, as I asked him to do on that occasion, that if such ridiculously high rates of interest were not charged on the capital cost we should reach break-even point on the station now being built?

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to ask a Question about interest, I shall do my best to answer it again for him. I did say in an Answer I gave a month or two ago that break-even point was likely to be reached in about 1970.

asked the Minister of Power whether it is Government policy to allow the export of steel offcuts; and what criteria are applied by Her Majesty's Customs for differentiating an offcut from scrap.

Some steel offcuts are, apparently, suitable for further fabrication without remelting. In this case the Government's policy is normally to allow their export. Offcuts may also be material which appears fit only for remelting, in which case they are regarded as scrap. With a few special exceptions, the Government at present allows scrap to be freely exported if its value is £25 a ton or less. Scrap of higher value is still relatively scarce in this country and exports are forbidden. Whether a particular quantity of material described as offcuts is scrap is a matter of commercial usage in this country on which Her Majesty's Customs may and does seek independent expert advice.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that a great deal of time and money is wasted by potential exporters in arguing with Her Majesty's Customs? Has not the time come when there should be a cast-iron definition of a steel offcut?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's wit, but I think that this is, in fact, a common-sense distinction which has been consistently adhered to, that the only things which are not exportable are the valuable scraps above the value of £25 a ton.

asked the Minister of Power, (1) whether he is aware of the possibility that oil and natural gas reserves exist under parts of the North Sea adjacent to British territorial waters; and, in view of the significance of this for the economy, what steps he is taking to expedite investigation of those reserves;

I attach great importance to the possibilities to which my hon. and learned Friend refers, but I cannot at present say when it will be possible to introduce the necessary legislation.

I thank my right hon. Friend for ageeing that this is a matter of the greatest importance. Is it not necessary that the House should ratify the 1958 Geneva Convention on the Continental Shelf and, since it would probably be non-controversial legislation, could it not be done at an early date so that this country could have the benefit of cheap natural gas?

I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend is right in saying that legislation will be necessary, and I take note of what he has said.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will consult the National Coal Board, the Gas Council and the Coal Merchants Federation with a view to improving the distribution of smokeless solid fuels, so that householders in industrial areas such as Sheffield can obtain adequate supplies of suitable solid fuels that will keep their homes warm and also meet their obligations under the Clean Air Act.

Heavy sales before the ending of summer prices caused some shortages of premium fuels in Sheffield and elsewhere. Supplies of Cleanglow are improving and there is no shortage of Gloco, which is cheaper and will burn satisfactorily in a modern grate. I do regularly consult these bodies all of which are represented on the National Advisory Committee on Smokeless Fuels of which I am Chairman.

The information given to me by householders in Sheffield conflicts with what the hon. Gentleman has just said. Will he bear in mind, in considering the distribution of fuels, that in many of the grates in smoke control areas it is quite impossible to burn the grades of coke about which he has been speaking? Cannot something be done either to improve the supply of premium fuels or to alter the stoves so that they will burn what is available?

I think it is possible that difficulties in Sheffield were added to by the closure for overhaul of a plant near Nottingham. I am advised that supplies of Cleanglow are now improving. That is the premium fuel concerned. I am advised also, and aidvised very strongly, that Gloco is a perfectly adequate fuel which will burn well in a proper approved applianoe. If the hon. Gentleman has a case in mind in which there is real difficulty, I should be very glad to refer it to the Gas Board, because the Board is anxious to help individual customers where it can.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has yet received any advice from the Domestic Coal Consumers' Council on how to deal with the excessive moisture content in smokeless fuels.

No, Six, but I expect to receive a report from the Council shortly.

My hon. Friend will remember that on 23rd July last he told me that he was anxious that consumers should have all possible knowledge of the ways in which they could obtain redress. Because there is real difficulty here, can he tell me What steps his Department has taken since then to that end?

I can only echo the Answer I gave to my hon. Friend in July. I see no mason to depart from it. Steps are continually being taken to deal with the reasonable complaints of consumers. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind, I should be very glad to look at it and see whether I can help him.

asked the Minister without Portfolio if he is aware that the official publication, "The Common Market in Action", contains a diagram that gives an inaccurate picture of the functions and powers of the Commission of the European Economic Community; and if he will accordingly withdraw the publication.

I am not aware of any inaccuracy in this diagram.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that on page 9 of this booklet, which is supposed to be impartial, the diagram shows that the Commission has powers only to make proposals to the Council of Ministers and to give information to the Parliaments? Why has the Minister left out an arrow indicating the power of the Commission to make statutory regulations binding on the citizens of member-States without the intervention of their Parliaments or their law courts? Are the Government anxious to conceal the undemocratic aspects of this body?

No. If the hon. Gentleman will follow the cross-reference on the diagram to page 10, where the powers of the Commission are spelt out, he will see a satisfactory summary of the point he wants illustrated.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that many ward sisters in hospitals under his jurisdiction, after 10 years' experience, get no more remuneration than junior sisters of lower standing, and that this is resulting in many experienced sisters leaving the hospital public service and going into private nursing and other relevant spheres; and if he will take steps to increase the pay of ward sisters in hospitals for which he is responsible.

The pay structure for nurses, including ward sisters, has been remitted to the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council by the Industrial Court.

Does the Minister realise that this is part of the shockingly unjust and misguided system which tends to reduce the salary and emoluments and general status of nursing sisters in this noble profession, which should be recognised as such, and will he take steps to rectify it?

Nurses had their increase of 7½ per cent. with effect from 1st April last. The Whitley Council is currently considering what further adjustments in salary are required; it met on 9th October, 13th and 27th November, and is to meet again to consider the matter.

To ask the Minister of Health (1) what were the ratios of nursing and other staff to patients on 12th November, 1962, in the Horton Road and Coney Hill, Gloucestershire, mental hospitals;

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As Questions Nos. 16 and 17, in the name of My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin), refer to hospitals in my constituency, is there any method whereby one can encourage the answering of them?

I hope not. Lots of people ask questions about my constituency.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he has taken, under Section 17 (1) of the Mental Health Act, 1959, to inspect the Frenchay Manor mental home with a view to ascertaining the number of children in the home; the number of children withdrawn by the Gloucestershire County Council; the extent to which the home falls below the standards laid down in his regulations; and the action taken to remedy these defects.

I understand the county council has inspected this home several times in the last year and drawn attention to staffing, sanitary and other deficiencies which are being remedied.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that answer, may I ask him how many children have been removed by the Gloucestershire County Council during the past year, and would he not agree that the home is fulfilling a very valuable work in caring for subnormal children?

I understand that since the beginning of this year one mentally subnormal child and seven normal children have left in the ordinary course of events. With regard to the second part of the supplementary question, the answer is, Yes. As I have indicated, such defects as existed are being remedied, and I am advised that the children in the home seem well cared for and happy.

asked the Minister of Health if he will amend the scales of pay for pre-nursing students so that they may receive the same increase as was awarded to nurses from 1st April, 1962, and from the same date.

asked the Minister of Health what pay increase he is authorising for hospital nursing cadets.

I am authorising an increase of 7½ per cent. from 1st August.

While thanking the Minister for having authorised the increase, might I point out to him that this question has arisen each time the nurses have had an increase? Why cannot these hospital cadets, most of whom go into nursing and are keen nursing students, receive the same increase as the nurses from the same date? Does the right hon. Gentleman not remember that when I raised this with him last year, he said that he would bear it in mind for the future?

I said that the question was not prejudged for the future. As the hon. Lady knows, the cadets received their last increase four months later than the rest of the nursing staff.

Can my right hon. Friend give us any details of this payment?

It is a general increase of 7½ per cent. applied to all the rates payable to them in their different grades.

Since the nursing cadet scheme has done so much for the nursing profession in staffing our hospital service, and since they get so little encouragement from official sources, does the Minister not think that in future he could make arrangements for these pay increases to be automatic and dated from the time the nurses get their increases?

The date on which an increase was last received by a given class of staff is a very relevant factor in these matters, and it seems to me that it has been properly taken into account here.

Is not the Minister now penalising these cadets for the fact that there was a delay in giving them an increase last time? He cheated them of four months' pay last time and then uses this as an excuse for cheating them of four months' pay this time. Is it not time that he showed a little more honourable treatment of a section of youngsters whom we should be encouraging to enter a noble profession?

No. There has been throughout this difference in timing of the increase received by the cadets and by the nurses, and it is quite appropriate that the date of the last increase should be taken into account.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he takes to ensure that food is prepared and served in hygienic condition at transport and roadside cafés.

This is a local authority function. My right hon. Friend gives general guidance and advice.

Can my right hon. Friend say what powers are available and if he is satisfied that they are being used correctly? Would not he consider introducing a code of cleanliness for health inspectors to work to?

The local authorities have powers under the Public Health Act, 1936, and the Food and Drugs Act, 1955, to enter these premises at all hours. As regards the second point, I do not think there is any reason to believe that these powers are not being exercised, but I would concede that where cafés are open 24 hours a day local authorities depend very much on immediate complaints from customers and that a proper standard of hygiene in cafés also depends on the co-operation of the consumer. I hope that wide publicity will be given to my hon. Friend's Question and the Answer. As regards the code, it is for local authorities to ensure hygienic conditions by carrying out the duties laid upon them. My right hon. Friend's part is to provide guidance and help through general circulars, advice in particular cases, visits by his officers and the issue of suitable educational material.

Is there not a difficulty about road-side cafés on the trunk roads where the exact location of the café might be a marginal difference between the Ministry of Transport and the local authority? Some of these road-side cafés are wholly deplorable.

I do not dissent from the latter remarks of the hon. Gentleman, but there is a duty upon him and upon those who use these cafés to bring anything that is obviously wrong to the attention of the authorities. Where such matters have been brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend he has acted at once and drawn the attention of the local authority to the matter.

Does my right hon. Friend think that from many of these small local authorities through whose areas these roads run he would get a reply from the sanitary department if he rang it up in the middle of the night?

asked the Minister of Health, whether he has now considered the report of the study group set up by him to consider the nature of the work done by hospital engineers, their gradings, training and qualifications; and if he will make a statement on its recommendations.

I have not yet completed my consideration of this report.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that this report has been in his possession since 16th February this year, and does he not think that it is a very unfair way of treating these most important members of the hospital service, particularly in view of the fact that the report condemns the totally inadequate level of remuneration which is paid to them? Does he not think it is time that he speeded up consideration of the Report?

I do not dissent from what the hon. Gentleman says about the importance of the report, especially in the light of future developments in the whole pattern of our hospital service, but there is no reason why consideration of the report should hold up negotiations on pay, and there is a claim which is at the moment before the relevant Whitley Council.

But is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the management side refuse to consider this claim, which does not meet the circumstances of today, on the ground of the right hon. Gentleman's lack of consideration of the report?

That is not in accordance with the information I have received, but perhaps I can get in touch with the hon. Gentleman on that point.

asked the Minister of Health (1) whether there is a shortage of nursing staff in the eastern area; and

There is no general shortage: numbers in post have increased further in the last year, and recruitment continues within the financial allocations.

That is a most extraordinary Answer. I am stuck for words and therefore hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I take more time than I should. Is not my hon. Friend aware that an instruction has gone out from the Board that no additional nurses shall be taken on for any hospital in the eastern area and that hospitals have stopped even replacing nurses who leave? It is an extraordinary thing that after fifteen years of the National Health Service, or whatever the number of years may be, that—

This is the time for Questions. Would the hon. Gentleman ask a question?

I suggest that it is very relevant to the Question that after fifteen years of the National Health Service it should have come to the point at which the recruitment of nurses, who, with doctors, are the basis of the whole Health Service, should have been stopped in an area where no hospital is up to establishment.

It may be very relevant but it is not a question. That is the point.

With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I am asking the Minister what the answer is to this question: Why has the board stopped recruiting nurses in the eastern area? If it has no money left, which I understand is the basic reason, to recruit nurses, will my hon. Friend answer two questions? First, what is—[Interruption.] Perhaps hon. Members do not want to know the truth, but will my hon. Friend answer these two questions? First, what effect will this have on the future training of nurses in this country, particularly if what has happened in the eastern area applies to other areas? Secondly, will my hon. Friend consider the question of administrative staff with a view to cutting down form-filling, and so on, that goes on at requests from the centre so that the board has more money to spend on recruiting nursing staffs which it is no longer able to recruit in the eastern area?

Over the East Anglian area as a whole, in the twelve months ended 30th September last, numbers in post increased by 1·7 per cent. and 13·5 per cent. for whole-time and part-time staff, respectively.

The hospitals are not up to establishment.

Perhaps my hon. Friend will permit me to answer his extremely lengthy, confused and muddled question. Recruitment continues, but it is restricted at a number of hospitals. Increased real expenditure has been allowed for this year, but the responsibility for spending their money rests with the regional hospital boards, as the House well knows.

In view of the fact that recruitment does not increase and that the reply to the question is thoroughly unsatisfactory, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first available opportunity.

asked the Minister of Health what advice he has given or proposes to give to hospital authorities who are in a position to fill nursing vacancies in their establishment but have insufficient funds to meet the salaries of additional nurses.

It is for hospital authorities to decide how best to use their allocations.

Is not the Minister aware that region after region has given instructions to hospital management committees to stop recruiting nursing staff, and, indeed, replacing staff, as the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) said on the previous Question? We cannot possibly recruit nurses up to establishment when allocations are cut as finely as they have been cut this year, in some cases down to 1 per cent. and even just over ½ per cent. increase on last year. How can one possibly run an expanding Health Service on this financial basis?

The hon. Gentleman's last words—"an expanding Health Service" —are right. Allocations everywhere have provided for an increase in expenditure at constant prices and wages as well as for the increase in service which is constantly taking place from a growth in efficiency, but hospital authorities must work within their allocations. These allocations have been adjusted and increased to allow for the increases in salaries and wage awards, and hospital authorities have now, as in the past, a duty to keep within them. Nevertheless, the hospital service has continued to recruit nurses throughout the last twelve months at a high rate, and, in the case of part-time nurses, at the highest rate ever known.

While recognising that there may be a problem in some areas, is not the great problem the wastage of trainees? Since student nurse recruiting is improving, is it not right that regional boards and matrons recruiting nurses should place greater emphasis on the quality of recruits rather than go for unlimited quantities of nurses?

I agree. It is noteworthy that the increase this year has taken place at a time when the standards required for entry into the nursing profession have been increasing.

Is the Minister aware that in two hospitals in my constituency, which come in the South-West Region, far from there being a limitation on recruitment, existing nurses have as a result of his Department's financial stringency been dismissed? Thirty-one nurses and others in two mental hospitals alone have been dismissed. Are not mental hospitals the least well served of all the nursing service? If the Minister's answer is that this must be done because of a proportionate increase in expenditure allotted to every hospital, is it not the case that these two hospitals, which have always shown a very small cost per bed, are, as a result of their economies in years gone by, condemned the whole time to an inadequate standard of nursing?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has found the means to ask the question that he wished to ask about his constituency. The ratio of nursing staff in these hospitals compares very favourably with that in similar hospitals generally. The reductions which have taken place are eleven nurses, of whom six were part-time and four were of pensionable age, and 21 other staff. In many cases these reductions were called for anyhow in the interests of efficiency and good management.

Since there is very great anxiety throughout the country about the problem which has arisen, could my right hon. Friend tell me whether he has yet received the request from the Royal College of Nursing to bring a deputation on this subject? Has he yet seen the report from the matron of the Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, dealing with the problem on the North-East Coast? Will my right hon. Friend not dismiss this matter in quite such strong terms, as there really is a problem here, as I am sure he is aware?

The rate at which this service and the nursing staff as an integral part of it can be expanded is, of course, limited, although the rate from year to year is one that we can now foresee over a period of years. That is enabling hospital authorities to plan and recruit much more effectively than they could do in the past. I do not recollect offhand having personally seen either of the communications to which my hon. Friend refers, but I will certainly ensure that if they have been received they are brought to my attention.

Does not the Minister appreciate that there is a special problem here? For various reasons, it is now easier to recruit student nurses than it has been for very many years. Is not he aware that a considerable number of nursing vacancies still exist? If girls who are willing to come forward are not recruited now they will be lost to the nursing profession for good, and it will be entirely the right hon. Gentleman's fault.

The fact is that recruits to the nursing profession are being obtained in increasing numbers. I see no reason to doubt that this will go on in the future. The rate at which the hospital service can be developed is limited not by the rate which the resources offer but by the rate at which resources can be made available along with the other commitments.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is satisfied that the waiting lists for hospital treatment do not reflect a shortage of nursing staff which is accentuated by the financial position in many hospitals; and if he will make an inquiry into the position in other than teaching hospitals.

Yes. All hospital authorities are reviewing their waiting lists.

I ask my right hon. Friend whether in fact this decision to stop recruiting on the part of the regional hospital boards in order to match up with the financial commitments is going to be a deterrent in dealing with the waiting lists. Could my right hon. Friend please realise that it is not really doing his position any good to give again the argument he has used on previous occasions about this matter? Let us face the facts fairly and squarely.

The hospital authorities have given no general indication that recruitment should be stopped. They only accept the obligation to keep within their financial allocations, which have enabled them to expand their nursing staff in the course of the past year and to go on doing so. The shortage of nursing staff is not the limiting factor in disposing of the waiting lists, which, in many cases, I regard as much too long, and I intend to make 1963 a year in which the reduction of these waiting lists drastically is one of the prime objects of the hospital service.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has told the House a complete untruth in relation to the statements which have been made about the requirements of hospital management committees, and that it is a fact that the hospital management committees have been asked to consider the question of their nursing staff and not to recruit any more nurses unless they can save money in other ways? Is he not also aware that one of the ways suggested is a reduction in the sort of food which is being given to patients—so that the committees can recruit more nursing staff?

No, Sir. There has been no general requirement or instruction that recruitment should be held up. Some hospital authorities have been able to push recruitment forward fast in the earlier part of the financial year, and therefore, naturally they must recruit more slowly during the latter part in order to keep within their financial allocation. Those financial allocations permit an expansion in this aspect as in other aspects of the hospital service.

That is not true.

I think there is a great misunderstanding in the House on this point. Is my right hon. Friend not aware that the Eastern Area Hospital Board has sent out a notice to all its hospitals saying that there shall be no increase in staff and that no new nursing staff shall be taken on, and that this is having the effect that even the nursing staff who are leaving are not being replaced at the moment? If that is happening in the eastern area, might it not be happening in other areas as well? I am not suggesting that my right hon. Friend is responsible for it, but I challenge him to tell me that this is is not true, that the Eastern Area Hospital Board is—

I must point out to the hon. Member that this is not the moment for issuing challenges. This is the time for asking questions.

I am very sorry, Mr. Speaker, and I apologise, but this is a matter about which I feel extremely strongly. I do not recall a time, even before the war, even before we had a hospital service, when this sort of thing happened. Nurses are getting no incentive at all to be taken on.

The hon. Gentleman must realise that in the interests of the House as a whole I have to ask hon. Members to conform to the rules of order, however strongly they feel about a topic.

I apologise, Mr. Speaker. I will simply confine myself to a question. Will the Minister please say whether this instruction has been issued by the Eastern Area Hospital Board or not?

I have looked in detail into the position in the area where my hon. Friend represents a constituency. I shall be glad to discuss the position there with him at any time. Recruitment is still proceeding in that area—

No.

—and recruitment over the past year has resulted in a substantial increase of nurses, wholetime and part-time.

That is misleading.

asked the Minister of Health if arrangements for the registration of all hospital cancer cases have now been completed.

Not everywhere.

What is holding up these arrangements? Is it lack of money, or is it simply bad administration?

Cancer registration is more complex than notification of infectious diseases, since information is sought on a whole variety of points. My right hon. Friend is asking that this matter should be given higher priority where the coverage is still not satisfactory. The importance of full registration is being impressed upon hospital boards.

That was what was being done in June. Why is not the Minister accelerating this matter and taking steps to ensure that there is full coverage in the very near future?

I understand that in the case of certainly three hospital boards and eleven London teaching hospitals there is already 90 per cent. coverage, Or better, and that the figures show considerable improvement. I think that the steps now being taken by my right hon. Friend will have the desired effect.

asked the Minister of Health what has been the expansion of the hospital services during the last ten years.

I would refer my hon. Friend to pages 146 and 147 of my last Annual Report, and to the Progress Reports on hospital building.

Would my right hon. Friend say whether it is a fact that the expansion of these services over the country as a whole in recent years has been unprecedented in peace time, and if it is a fact will he take steps to make it more widely known?

Yes, I am anxious to take every opportunity of bringing to public knowledge the rapid rate at which the hospital service is expanding and being modernised. Already, since the inception of the service, the equivalent of 65 new great hospitals of 600 beds have been built.

But would the right hon. Gentleman take note of the type of information which comes to some of us, certainly to me from Stoke-on-Trent, that despite—perhaps because of—this expansion the finances of the hospital management committees today are such that they cannot properly maintain the old parts of their services such as painting, fabric, and certain alterations which ought to be done and must be done? Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to see they have sufficient finance far this?

The increase in terms of value in the revenue allocations of hospital authorities takes account of the new capital equipment and buildings which are coming into use.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement about the imminent closing of the London Chest Hospital at Arlesey, Bedfordshire; how many of the staff will be re-employed at the Three Counties Hospital; how many will be found alternative employment; how many will be redundant; and what the redundancy terms are to be.

This was announced in October, 1961, and the staff informed. Nearly all have been interviewed; 30 have been offered employment at Three Counties Hospital and more are being considered; at least 39 will be employed in other hospitals and others are retiring or making their own arrangements. Redundancy terms will be as in the circulars, of which I am sending my hon. Friend copies.

I am grateful for the figures, which do not deny that nevertheless there may be redundancies. Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of uncertainty amongst the staff at this hospital in view of the fact that the interviews referred to only took place on 3rd December last, and that as late as November advertisements appeared in the local Press advertising jobs at hospitals in the area without any prior notice being given to the staff under threat. Is he entirely satisfied that the board of governors of this hospital has complied with his own instruction, and I quote HM 60/47:

"Hospital authorities with redundant staff for whom they cannot themselves provide alternative employment should take steps at the earliest possible stage to bring their names to the notice of neighbouring hospital authorities."

Yes, certainly, I will make sure as my hon. Friend requests. I understand that the board of governors who administer Arlesey have asked the regional body to assist in placing staff who do not wish to move to other hospitals in the teaching group. I think the arrangements I have outlined in my Answer and the supplementary answer indicate that the matter is being taken care of.

asked the Minister of Health what percentage of the new accommodation for mentally handicapped children at Balderton Hospital is now in use.

About 30 per cent. of the accommodation opened in mid-October.

Will the Minister say whether the inability to bring more of this accommodation into use is due to shortage of nursing staff or of domestic staff, or any other reason? Will he also say whether he will get every help he possibly can to ensure that more of this accommodation is brought into use at the earliest possible moment, bearing in mind the fact that we, at Nottingham at any rate, rely almost entirely on this new accommodation in order to supply the new beds of which we are so urgently in need?

We are, of course, dealing with children, and one can only bring new accommodation like this gradually into effect. Patients will be admitted gradually as staffs are built up to enable the children to settle down more easily in their new environment.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state the number of deformed babies so far born whose deformity can be directly attributed to the use of the drug thalidomide by their mothers during pregnancy.

This cannot be known exactly, but is less than the 390–302 surviving—whose mothers took or may have taken thalidomide at some stage of pregnancy.

In view of the tragedies recently revealed, will my right hon. Friend take powers to prohibit any manufacturer putting any drug on the market until it has been submitted to him and approved by him and his medical advisers? If he has not this power, I am sure that Parliament would willingly give it to him.

This is a matter on which I am receiving advice from my Standing Medical Advisory Committee. I have already made an interim statement to the House, and I shall make another as soon as I receive its further advice, which I am expecting.

Since this is an urgent matter, can the Minister say when he is likely to receive the final report of the Standing Medical Advisory Committee on the matter?

I do not know that the next will necessarily be the final report. As the hon. Gentleman appreciates, this is a matter with many ramifications which deserves very careful attention by the highest authorities. I should be reluctant to press them, but I know that they realise the time as well as the other aspects.

asked the Minister of Health if, in negotiating contracts for National Health Service drugs, he will in future disallow costs occasioned by the representatives of firms calling on doctors and half the cost of advertising in medical journals and mail advertising.

No, Sir. I negotiate contracts only for drugs supplied to hospitals.

In that case, why cannot the right hon. Gentleman's own Department's Journal, the Prescriber's Journal, do for advertising drugs to doctors what the whole industry's advertising does at about one-thousandth of the cost?

I do not think the hon. Member seriously suggests that advertising by manufacturers should be prohibited. If he does, I cannot possibly agree with him, although I agree that the Prescriber's Journal already performs a useful function and will continue to perform a more useful function as time goes on in this respect. The cost of promotion is one of the matters which is taken into account by my Department in negotiating under the voluntary price regulation scheme.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will include an induction loop in future models of the Medresco hearing aid.

There is such a model for children at special schools. General issue is not envisaged.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why it cannot be allowed, because it would be of immense help to many people?

I am advised that the inclusion of an induction coil would not be of general benefit. It would only be of benefit where premises are specially wired for loop induction or where the aid is used with the telephone.

May we know what an induction coil is?

It is a technical term. I will write to my hon. Friend about it and explain to him exactly how this thing works.

asked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that the cost would be about £750,000, he is now prepared to provide spectacles with unbreakable glass for young people between the ages of 7 and 14 years.

No, Sir.

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider this matter? There would be a substantial saving in replacement casts and, what is more important, there might be the means of saving quite a number of serious accidents.

I have been looking into this matter. My information is that there is no evidence of a single case of an accident due to the breaking of a lens. As, perhaps, my hon. Friend knows, wherever there are special clinical reasons—for example, where a child is a spastic or for other reasons is liable to fall—these lenses can be prescribed.

asked the Minister of Health if he will take steps to induce, by way of grants, those medical scientists who have emigrated to North America to return to Great Britain.

I understand it is open to any British medical scientist to apply to the Medical Research Council for a grant.

While appreciating my right hon. Friend's reply, may I ask whether he is aware that, while this will doubtless be welcome news, nevertheless there is a tendency for medical scientists to drift to America, as, possibly, he is aware? Is he aware that there are additional factors as well as financial reasons that keep them there? Will he look into this aspect closely so that we do not continue to lose these valuable people?

I agree with my hon. Friend that opportunities for research as well as merely the financial aspect are important. It is, however, the responsibility of the Medical Research Council to allocate the money which is available for research.

asked the Minister of Health when he intends to implement the recommendations of the Scott Report on the Training of Teachers of Mentally Handicapped Children; what evidence he has to support the assertions contained in the preface to the Report; and if he will make a statement.

I cannot yet add to my reply to the hon. Member on 30th July. The preface records the views of the Central Health Services Council.

Is the Minister aware that the statements and the preface are simply not borne out by the Report but are, in fact, contradictions to it? Since this is an urgent matter, is the Minister aware that the Report states that we need 5,000 of these teachers but that we have fewer than 2,000 of them? Will he really address himself to this problem and ignore this very unfortunate preface, which poured a bucket of cold water on an excellent Report?

I do not think that the mature consideration of the Report is holding up recruitment of staff. I am as keen as the hon. Member to see recruitment going ahead very fast in this sector. In fact, between the end of 1959 and the end of 1961 there was an increase of from 1,653 to 2,054 in the staff in these training centres. I do not think that it is being held up. This is obviously a Report the decisions on which will influence development for years to come, and I make no apology for the care which is being taken in considering it.

asked the Minister of Health what action he is taking following his Department's Report on fluoridation of water; and what will be the dental effects.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are ready to approve, under Section 28 of the National Health Service Act and the corresponding Section of the Scottish Act, proposals from local health authorities to make arrangements with water undertakers for the addition of fluoride to water supplies which are deficient in it naturally. Where this is done, the incidence of dental decay in young children should be reduced by about half.

Is there any medical reason why this treatment of water should not be made universal?

Not the least. Some parts of the country have had the advantage of being able to drink water with natural fluoride since the beginning of time. There is no reason why any part of the country should be excluded from its advantages. This is a matter, however, in which the local health authorities, as responsible for preventive health, will take the initiative in their own areas.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the scruples held by some members of the population about fluoridation? Is he satisfied that his Departmental Committee gave full consideration to the objections made by such people in, for example, a pamphlet called "The fluoridation of public water supply" published by the National Pure Water Association this year?

Yes, Sir. I am completely satisfied that these scruples are unfounded and groundless.

In view of the fact that a fortnight ago the City of Stoke-on-Trent passed a resolution without anyone taking exception to it to move forward and have one part per million of fluoride in its drinking water, does the Minister's statement now mean that very soon the City will be able to make its own arrangements with the water board?

I shall look forward to receiving their proposals, which I hope to approve.

Can my right hon. Friend give any idea what the cost of this is likely to be to local authorities?

Yes, about 10d. per head per year in the areas so supplied.

Is the Minister aware that his decision, although somewhat delayed, will be generally very welcome?

Are my right hon. Friend and his Department 100 per cent. convinced that this is desirable? Why does he not take stronger steps? Dental health is extremely important, both in itself and from the long-term view. Surely, my right hon. Friend ought to be more vigorous.

I cannot do more short of making it mandatory upon all local authorities to do this. I cannot pick one element out of a whole field of the responsibilities of the local health authorities and make that mandatory. I am sure that in this, as in other elements of preventive health, realising the value of this measure, local authorities will come forward steadily and actively to put it into effect.

Says you.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the continued high rate of emigration of British doctors and the problems of staffing in the National Health Service thereby created; and what steps he is taking within the full context of a free society to keep doctors in Great Britain.

No, Sir, this does not arise.

Will not my right hon. Friend look at this question in greater depth than he has done hitherto in view of the serious nature of it? Is he aware that the fundamental factor of the situation is a worldwide shortage of doctors and that whereas at the moment we are losing doctors to the other English-speaking countries and importing them from India, Pakistan and elsewhere, this alternative source of supply may dry up by the course of other events which are taking place in India? Will not my right hon. Friend look at the question very carefully, even from the point of view of having more data to compute the estimates that are made in other quarters?

The evidence which I have been able to obtain from the medical schools shows that the percentage of students who take up residence abroad—for example, the percentage of those qualified in the 1950s who are abroad today—is quite small, about 6 per cent. This in turn is only part of the more active flow of doctors and other professional men from one part of the world to the other which has characterised the post-war world. The fact is, however, that the number of British-born doctors, both in general practice and in the hospital service, has been increasing and is continuing to increase.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider making it a statutory obligation that all congenital deformities should be officially registered at birth.

I am arranging for returns of children born with recognisable abnormalities. Statutory powers should not be necessary.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the decline in taking up welfare foods; and whether, in view of this, he will take steps to reduce the price in order to enable them to be purchased by families in need.

All welfare foods are available free to families in need.

Yes, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that since the price of these welfare foods was increased in June last year there has been a spectacular decrease in the amount of them being taken up? Is he aware, for example, that at Thorne in my own constituency, taking cod liver oil, for example, the decline in take-up for medicament is down by 80 per cent? Is he not aware that many of the children are being deprived of these vitamin foods and that the effect of this can only be known later in life?

Yes, but the Question referred to families in need, and the position there is that families who receive National Assistance or who, by Assistance standards, would be caused hardship by having to pay for welfare foods can obtain tokens from the National Assistance Board to enable them to get free supplies. Of course, in some of these cases the uptake of welfare foods has been increasing in the last twelve months. Far more important is, of course, the question of vitamins, and there is no evidence that, on that score, there is any deficiency.

asked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, whether he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of South African products which are at present being served in the Refreshment Rooms of the House of Commons.

Sliced pears of South African origin are now being purchased as an ingredient for fruit salad, and South African oranges are also bought at those seasons of the year when price and quality commend them. South African wines and liqueurs are available as shown on the wine list.

While thanking the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee for that reply, may I ask whether he is not aware that he ought to be ashamed of it? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Is he not aware that on 7th November last the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution by an overwhelming majority calling on all member States to boycott South African goods and calling on them also to refrain from any act likely to delay or hinder the implementation of this resolution? In view of that fact, is it not outrageous that in the Refreshment Rooms of the British House of Commons South African goods should still be served in open defiance of the request of the majority of the General Assembly of the United Nations?

The General Assembly of the United Nations did not send me a copy of that resolution, but we feel it right that in purchasing goods we should attach particular importance to the question of quality and price; otherwise we are in extreme difficulty.

Will my hon. Friend have no part whatever in any attempt to boycott South African goods and take whatever opportunity is open to him to demonstrate the importance to Britain of trade with South Africa?

We are the servants of the House, and people who do not like South African food need not eat it.

Is this not a question whether or not we in the House of Commons believe in supporting the resolutions of the United Nations, and does not the ribald behaviour of hon. Members opposite prove that once again they are not supporters of the United Nations?

If hon. Members wanted advice about support for the United Nations they probably would not consult the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee.