asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what proposals for residential development he has received from Bristol City Council for the Paul Street area of Kingsdown and St. Michael's.

No proposals have yet been received for the Paul Street area, but layout plans for the south-eastern part of the Kings-down site are at present under discussion between technical officers of the Corporation and my Department.

Will my right hon. Friend do his best in any consultations which he has with the Bristol City Council to ensure the balanced redevelopment of this area with plenty of homes and shops, particularly small shops?

Yes, Sir, always remembering that the primary initiative is with the local authority.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware that the high cost of repairs associated with improvements is preventing many landlords and owner-occupiers from taking full advantage of the home improvement grants; and whether he will take powers to give assistance to provide long term loans for these repairs.

Local authorities already have adequate powers to make loans for this purpose.

While I welcome the visit of the Parliamentary Secretary to Sheffield, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that one of the obstacles to Sheffield taking full advantage of the scheme in the exhibition is that the money is not readily available?

I was not so aware; I had hoped that through one means or another the necessary money would be available. I will make inquiries.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that although many councils make loans for old houses, they are being severely hindered by the high interest rates which they have to pay and consequently have to charge? Will he seriously consider cheap loans for this purpose?

I cannot give the hon. Member any satisfaction on this, because local authorities have to pay the going rate in order to raise the money.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will take steps to provide loans to building societies and local authorities to facilitate the provision of mortgages on older properties.

Local authorities already have comprehensive powers to provide loans for house purchase and are under no restriction in the amount they can lend. The possible needs of the building societies are part of a wider review I am making of the prospects for maintaining the growth of home ownership.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that by one estimate alone there are about 4 million houses whose landlords cannot afford to make the necessary repairs and in respect of which assistance of this type would be welcomed so that the occupiers could buy the houses?

I am making a review of the whole subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities still have to pay about twice the amount of interest which was required under the Labour Government? Is it not possible to narrow the gap?

The hon. Gentleman must realise that, despite the higher interest rate and for reasons which go very wide, a far more massive programme on the housing and on every other front is being carried out under this Administration.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what advice he has given the Cardiff City Council concerning compensation for householders who are obliged to continue paying off their mortgages to the Corporation after their houses have been demolished under a clearance order.

None, Sir. The matter was mentioned to me when I visited Cardiff on 23rd November, 1962, and I suggested to the Council that it should write to me; I have not yet heard from it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to consider amending the Housing Act, 1957, with a view to providing more adequate compensation for people who purchased their houses after December, 1955, without knowing that they were in a clearance area and who are likely to suffer, whether they have corporation or private mortgages?

I know the importance of this question to the hon. Member's constituency, but he will know that there is to be an inquiry about some of the houses concerned and that no decision has yet been taken about those houses. I understand that representations have been made, unsuccessfully, to the Association of Municipal Corporations asking the same questions as the hon. Gentleman has asked, and that shows that this is not a widespread problem.

In view of the hardship, which the right hon. Gentleman acknow- ledges, caused to people who have bought their houses outright or on private mortgages or on local authority mortgages, will he consider ways and means of relieving that hardship?

I have invited the Council to write to me about this and I shall be glad to try to oblige it if it does write to me.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he has given further consideration to the possibility of restoring the Government assistance to building societies in connection with the purchase of houses built before 1919.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will reintroduce Exchequer advances to building societies for the purpose of facilitating the purchase of pre-1919 houses.

The Government wish to see the growth of home-ownership maintained, whether by the purchase of existing or of newly-built houses. I am in consultation with the Building Societies' Association about the prospects of further expansion but I am not in a position to make a statement.

Can my right hon. Friend now say whether or not he intends to include the provisions which previously obtained in respect of 1919 houses?

That would need fresh legislation but I am in full consultation with the Association at the moment and intend to make a statement as soon as I can.

May I remind my right hon. Friend that there are over 4 million houses which were built prior to 1914, and that the continuation of this scheme, which was inaugurated with great success, would be of considerable help in maintaining the condition of the properties?

I have this sort of consideration in the forefront of my mind.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will estimate the number of houses that will be built under Her Majesty's Government's plans in 1962, 1963, and 1964.

I estimate that 300,000 houses will be built in Great Britain this year and that about 273,000 of these will be in England and Wales. Next year I would expect to see an increase of the order of 5,000–6,000 on these figures. I am unwilling to forecast as far ahead as 1964, but I am hopeful that a steady increase will be maintained. I am sure the output will remain high.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these figures are not good enough? Is it not true that experts are saying that we want about 400,000 houses built each year, for the next 15 to 20 years? When will he do more to ensure that these old houses are demolished; that young couples can have houses to live in, and that the housing situation generally is what it should be?

I agree that we need more houses. As I promised, I shall be making a statement on the whole subject as soon as I can.

Of the 280,000 houses to be built in England and Wales next year, how many will be council houses?

More than this year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware that the average price of new houses has risen by 23 per cent. since 1959; and to what extent he estimates this is due to the increase in land prices.

I am aware of the source of the figure referred to by the hon. Member; but it would not be safe to base on it any generalisation about the effect of land prices upon house prices.

Is the Minister aware that the site costs up to 40 per cent. of the price of a house, according to the Build- ing Societies' Association? Is he further aware that the L.C.C. recently had to pay £1,500 in site costs for each of 42 dwellings in Roehampton, or, allowing for interest, 33s. a week for this item alone; that many cities are now paying for land at double the price they paid in 1959 when the Government took off controls, and that the only solution is public ownership of land?

The hon. Member will not expect me to agree with the last part of his supplementary question. But I hope that he will accept that there is an inter-relationship between demand, land prices and house prices. It may be that in the areas of greatest demand land prices react to the demand and thus affect house prices, rather than merely being a passive resultant of land prices and house prices on their own.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the increase in new houses is due to a large extent to the fact that building wages in the last few years have risen by 17 per cent.? What proportion of the total cost of a new house is represented by wages?

That is another question. Although building prices have risen substantially in the last two years, I must confirm that land prices have also risen.

If the Minister does not agree with my hon. Friend's solution, what is his solution?

The solution is being seen every year, in the vast and steady increase in owner-occupation and local authority building, despite all the worries of hon. Members opposite—and we intend to see that that increase is intensified.

Surely there has not been an increase in local authority building. It is only half what it was eight years ago.

Yes, but compared with the time of lower interest rates under pre-Tory Administrations local authority building is increasing, and will increase further—and not only on the housing front but on every front for which local authorities are responsible.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs to what extent rents vary for decontrolled tenancies of one, two, three, four and five rooms in the London and Greater London area.

Rents for decontrolled dwellings of the same size naturally vary according to the quality, condition and environment of the property. I have no information to show the extent of the variations, nor would it be practicable to collect it.

Am I to take it that the Minister does not know—and that his Department does not know—not only where rents are excessively high but also what is the comparison between one area and another? If he does not know, is it not highly desirable that he should?

I do not think so. Local authorities have powers to make compulsory purchase orders and send them to me for confirmation if they believe that a particular situation, with a combination of exorbitant rents and the threat of homelessness, makes it necessary.

When the Minister is considering whether or not to confirm a compulsory purchase order, does he not have to consider comparable rents in the neighbourhood? If he has not some such idea in mind as that suggested by my hon. Friend, how can he do that?

Because that sort of fact is brought out at the inquiry.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what response he has received from local authorities to his circular of 2nd August, 1962, asking them to induce landlords to install baths, hot water and inside lavatories in houses requiring them.

My circular had a much wider purpose than the hon. Member suggests. In any case, local authorities were asked to let me know their reactions by the end of the year, and many replies have yet to come in.

Is the Minister aware that some hon. Members feel that this circular, while it is belated and incomplete, is a good one, which indicates a welcome reversal of Government policy? Since replies have to be in by the end of the month, what steps is the right hon. Gentleman going to take to see that it is implemented? Is he aware that his Ministry is refusing grants to councils to cover the extra cost where the provision of baths requires the installation of bigger sewers to accommodate the extra water?

I have told the House that I am reviewing the whole matter of improvement grants, and I shall be reporting on this to the House in a few months. Meanwhile, I will study with care the reports as they come in to me.

Would the right hon. Gentleman pursue this matter with vigour, as it will make a fine contribution in providing work for the foundry trade in two areas of the country where that is vitally needed?

The scheme has many blessings.

Is the Minister aware that much of the old property which needs modernising belongs to the British Transport Commission? Will he have a word with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport in order to ensure that more capital development is afforded to the B.T.C.?

I understand that arrangements of this sort are being made.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will discuss with local authority associations the problem arising when there is a dispute between two neighbouring authorities as to the responsibility for housing a particular family about whose residence there may be room for argument, with a view to the introduction of legislation for establishing machinery for settling by agreement, or in default of agreement, by arbitration, the authority which is to take responsibility.

If disputes of this kind arise, I would expect the authorities concerned to be capable of resolving them with good sense and good will. But if the right hon. Member will let me know of any case he has in mind, I will look into it.

Is the Minister aware that in areas of chronic overcrowding, such as Merseyside, there are frequent cases where a husband is having to live apart from his wife, and with his parents, and the wife is living with her parents, and there is doubt as to where the real residence is; and that this leads to the first local authority striking them from its housing list and they get no priority and have to wait many years before securing accommodation from the second local authority?

I realise how unsatisfactory this can be. I hope that local authorities will sort it out for themselves. Only if it appears that they are unable to do so would I contemplate a general scheme.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware of the growing number of cases of Merchant Navy men, Service men and others who have applied for the allocation of a house by a local authority, but who find after years on the housing list that they are disqualified on residence grounds, particularly where one or other member of the family resides with parents in a neighbouring area; and whether he will take appropriate steps to see that on transfer to the housing list of a neighbouring authority they do not lose seniority.

It is not the practice of local authorities to inform me of individual applications for tenancies. Housing authorities were advised in 1955 not to insist on a residential qualification for sailors, soldiers and airmen returning to civil life in areas where they have occupation or family connections. The great majority of authorities are understood to have adopted this advice.

I am aware of the Circular of 1955. Does that cover a Merchant Navy case as well as a Service case?

Yes. But perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will send me the details of this case.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will call for a special return from the local authorities concerned to show how many homeless or evicted persons in metropolitan Essex have been accommodated temporarily during the last 12 months; and in what areas this has been done.

I am informed that the Answer to the first part of the Question is 576 persons. The accommodation provided was at Hornchurch, Abridge, Leytonstone, Stanway, East Ham and West Ham.

May I ask whether the Minister is aware that in some areas of metropolitan Essex this type of accommodation for homeless and evicted persons is fully occupied and people have to be sent great distances? In those circumstances, can he say what he is doing to provide more accommodation?

With the greatest sympathy, may I tell the hon. Gentleman that this is a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will undertake a survey of land prices obtaining in different parts of the United Kingdom.

No, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know the average sort of price obtaining in areas where there is extensive development? If he does, would he consider publishing it?

That could be done only by means of an elaborate survey, and there is no need to have a survey to show that prices are higher in the prosperous areas and not so high in areas of less prosperity.

How can the right hon. Gentleman plan a massive building programme if he does not know and the public does not know the price of land in these areas?

Because demand is very high. If the credit arrangements can be made satisfactory and the land realised, I am satisfied that a massive building programme will continue as one already exists.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although no doubt it is true that prices in prosperous areas are higher than they are in less prosperous areas, it is true that even in the less prosperous areas they have gone up astronomically, and that that is a big handicap to all local authority building? Will he not at least try to find out the facts before he makes a policy for housing?

I do not see the need for an overall survey. I am very ready to consider the problems in any particular area of which I am not aware where a local authority is restrained by the price of land. If any local authority feels itself restrained by the price of land and nothing else, I am sure that it will get in touch with me.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether the public speech of the Permanent Secretary to his Department on Tuesday, 6th November to the Ham and Petersham Ratepayers and Residents Association concerning the future of Greater London was made with his authority.

This was a small informal occasion when the Permanent Secretary undertook, because of personal associations with the area, to explain to a small gathering of residents the Government's proposals for the reorganisation of local government in Greater London as they had already been announced and explained by Ministers.

This required no authority.

Is the Minister aware that it was not only a question of explaining, but of advocating these proposals, and that on the same informal occasion, which was quite fully reported in the local Press, the Permanent Secretary expressed the view that the idea of a local income tax gave her the horrors, that it was a pity there was so much politics in local government, and that councillors are not what they used to be? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that that was perhaps unfortunate?

No, not in the very least. It is absolutely seemly and proper for senior civil servants to explain Government policy, including the advantages alleged for Government policy by Ministers, once it has been clearly announced by a Minister in the House.

As for the last part of the question, the comments about councillors, my Permanent Secretary was repeating to a small gathering what she had said to a large gathering of local authority representatives, to which she had been invited to give her views on local authority representation and its prospects, with the permission of my predecessor, some two or three years ago.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this speech was much appreciated by the ratepayers in Ham and Petersham, and that his Permanent Secretary will always be welcome in my constituency?

May I press this point? Suppose, for example, local councillors, including local councillors who happened also to be Members of this House, start expressing in public, here and elsewhere, the opinion that high civil servants in the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry are not what they used to be. Will the right hon. Gentleman regard that as appropriate and happy?

If it were true, it would be open to any Member of the House to make general observations of that sort, but I hope in no case observations on individual civil servants, particularly since the proper object of an attack is not a civil servant but the Minister who announces a policy.

rose—

I think we must leave it, and indeed that the last question was hypothetical, and therefore out of order.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether the statement of the Permanent Secretary of his Department to the British Waterworks Association on 14th November about consultation between the Government and the Metropolitan Water Board on reorganisation was made with his authority.

In the course of proposing the health of the Association the Permanent Secretary took the opportunity of assuring the representatives of the water industry present that the Department greatly valued consultation with the industry, this having been queried with reference to the Water Resources Bill. She added that there had been consultation with the Metropolitan Water Board over the arrangements proposed by the Government for water in the Greater London area; this was a simple statement of fact, both I and my predecessor having discussed—though not agreed—the Government's proposals with representatives of the Board.

Is the Minister really supporting the view that the presentation of proposals with comments to be made within one month is consultation, particularly when the Permanent Secretary admitted that the proposals had been formulated long before they were made to the Water Board? Is not this offhand manner of replying in an after-dinner speech to reasoned objections very shabby treatment which justifies more than ever the demand for a full inquiry?

Be that as it may, the choice of the word "consultation" was not that of my Permanent Secretary. The word was chosen and used by my predecessor and has been repeated by me. On that occasion neither I nor my Parliamentary Secretary, because of other obligations, could be present at the dinner. My Permanent Secretary therefore spoke in my place and simply referred to what had been said by my predecessor and by me.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what instructions are given to senior officials in his Department concerning the public expression of controversial political opinions.

The instruction to all senior civil servants is that they should not take part in matters of public and political controversy.

But it is of course perfectly appropriate that civil servants should explain to those concerned the policies of the Government of the day as they have already been announced and explained by the responsible Ministers.

Could not the Minister consider this again in view of the Answer be gave to the previous Question and the Answer he has just given, in which he said that the proper object of attack was the Minister? That is generally accepted. It is generally understood that one does not normally attack civil servants, but if civil servants open fire from under that flag of truce they cannot object if attacks are then made on them. Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this again? We have here a rather alarming precedent. It may have been a most lively and entertaining speech, but it was a highly controversial one. Some of the opinions would be considered by many of us to be highly debatable, and some of them very old-fashioned. Is it wise for senior civil servants to be brought into public controversy? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider what might be involved if this continues?

I am absolutely satisfied about the discretion and propriety of my Permanent Secretary. She has taken only the opportunities which she was invited to take to explain policies that had already been announced by a Minister to those immediately concerned with them.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say when the Government announced their policy on local income tax which apparently caused such alarming and physical trouble to the Permanent Secretary? When this House debated the Local Government Bill there was no firm announcement of Government policy.

I know, or at least I think, that the hon. Gentleman differs from his party on this issue, but it has been made clear from this Box time and again, and in Committee upstairs, that the Government do not see any panacea as an alternative to rates by way of local income tax or otherwise.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what progress has been made in the conversion of slag heaps into public parks; and whether, in view of the need to provide useful employment in the areas where these are, he will make a statement.

The information available shows that in England and Wales 288 acres of spoil heaps have been reclaimed by local authorities for open space since the war. This may include public parks.

My right hon. Friend and I would warmly welcome more applications for grant under the Local Employment Act, 1960, for schemes in development districts designed to bring derelict land into use or to improve local amenities.

Will the hon. Gentleman make that known to the local authorities, particularly in mining areas where there are these spoil heaps or slag heaps which are an eyesore? Where there is mounting unemployment, work of this nature could take care of unskilled or semi-skilled workers.

The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is "Yes". The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that proposals in development plan reviews covering the period to 1981 include reclamation of a further 435 acres of spoil heaps, of which 52 are earmarked for open spaces, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that the actual work of clearing these heaps is not a big employer of labour.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will take steps to ensure that grants paid to householders living in smokeless zones are extended to cover stoves and open fires behind glass, as is already the case in the North-East.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on 6th December to a Question by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling).

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is an abundant supply of coke in the country, and that this is quite satisfactory fuel in stoves and other enclosed appliances, but is unsuitable for open fireplaces? Does not he agree that the concession that I have suggested would help to meet the demand for open fire smokeless fuels in clean air zones?

I cannot agree that all types of coke are unsuitable for open fires. Suitable quality gas coke will burn very well in approved types of open fireplace. Outside the North-East adequate supplies of open fire solid fuel, including gas coke, are available.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he will make an announcement concerning the control of office development.

I hope to make a statement about the office problem after the Christmas Recess.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has also consulted his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to ensure that whatever is done is done purposely to bring about a much fairer distribution of this form of employment? Will he try to direct some of it to the North, and to Scotland?

Yes. It certainly is Government policy to spread this employment over a wide range of areas.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind, in producing this documentation, the fact that we are at the moment passing the Shops, Offices and Railway Premises Bill through the House; that this will make a number of offices obsolete, and that if office building is curtailed there could be a big rise in rents?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why he sent a circular last week to local authorities on the subject of rates.

To suggest the steps to be taken to bring the new lists to the notice of the public and to remind local authorities that the revaluation does not in itself justify any increase in either expenditure or balances.

In view of the obvious and understandable signs of panic in Government circles about the savage impact that the new regulations will have, will the Minister explain how it is that in this circular he asks local authorities to assume that the general level of values in the new list will be maintained, despite the large number of appeals that are likely to be made to local valuation committees? Have some secret instructions been given to those committees and, as a result, will any appeal against their decisions be a complete waste of time?

In the nature of things there will be appeals, and some will be successful. What I was trying to avoid was the danger that local authorities would over-estimate the effect of this on their rate yield and thus provide a larger reserve. As for the last part of the hon. Member's typically slanted remarks, I am sure that the public will recognise that it is largely through taxes, but partly also through rates, that the cost of our vastly expanding social and educational services has to be met.

Does the Minister intend this as an indirect way of telling local authorities not to spend more on the social services?

Certainly not. My colleagues on the Front Bench are continually explaining to the House, and are impressing upon local authorities, the expansion which the country desires in its educational and social services.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what inquiries he is making into new methods of raising revenue for local government purposes.

None.

Is it not quite deplorable that the Government's mind should apparently be closed to any idea of solving the problem that arises because of the heavy and increasing burden of rates, which will be intensified by the new valuation that is about to come into force? Is it not quite clear that the Government will have to take some steps, at some time or other, to relieve local authorities of the increasing burdens in respect of education and other services, which are not really local authority responsibilities?

The Government would certainly welcome a solution of this problem, but they believe that it would be wrong to encourage the view that there is an easy way out. At the moment the taxpayer pays more than half the cost of local authority services. Certainly our minds are not closed to any way of easing the burden on the ratepayers.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will take steps Ito amend the Clean Air Act in order to deal with the emission of sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere.

I am entirely in sympathy with the hon. Member's objective. The plain fact is, however, that in spite of continued research here and abroad we still do not know how to prevent the emission of sulphur dioxide. In the present state of knowledge the objective must be to keep down the ground-level concentration of the sulphur dioxide emitted. This is best done by effective use of the existing powers, under the Clean Air Act and Alkali Act, to require factory and other chimneys to be high enough to secure adequate dispersal.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether he has impressed upon the oil industry the necessity of inquiring into the emission of sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere? Has any research work been undertaken at all?

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman details about the research and who has been doing it, but I know that active research has been going on for many years. We are in close touch with it, but my advice is that there has been no significant break-through in this sphere.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say how much it would cost to treat oil so as to remove the sulphur and whether such cost is thought to be prohibitive at the present time? Has he noted that people who ought to know better tend to lay the blame on coal when in fact they should be blaming oil which has more sulphur in it, weight by weight?

That raises other questions. I am not competent to answer the hon. Gentleman's question about costs.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his reply is totally unsatisfactory and that, as is generally known, the lethal consequences of the smog in London last week were due to a combination of sulphur dioxide and smoke? Is not it time that the Government did something to control the emission of sulphur dioxide so as to stop the intolerable conditions which Londoners had to suffer last week?

As I have explained, the results of research do not yet enable us to control the sulphur compounds. But I have assured the House that we are keeping in touch with the latest research and we shall, of course, put into action anything which is indicated as desirable.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in view of the effects of smog on life and health in London and elsewhere, he will consult local authorities with a view to expediting the full operation of the Clean Air Act.

My right hon. Friend will continue to urge and encourage local authorities to take the fastest possible action against smoke pollution in the black areas of England and Wales.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that some boroughs have indicated that they do not contemplate finishing their smoke control programmes until 1975? Is not it, therefore, desirable that every step should be taken to ensure that smoke control remedies, which alone will prevent such fatalities as occurred last week, should be put into operation as speedily as possible?

I entirely agree with the hon. Member. I assure him that the programme which will be available to the House next week will be considered in great detail, and local authorities which appear to be in any way dilatory will be urged by my right hon. Friend to make more vigorous efforts.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that Fulham sets a shining example in this respect? Will he ask the Permanent Secretary of the Department to make a speech to that effect?

Does not the original Answer of my hon. Friend show that, in general, the London boroughs have been somewhat dilatory in exercising their responsibilities under the Clean Air Act? Is not it a fact that the recent smog would have been less serious had the London boroughs been more efficient?

I do not think that that is a fair criticism of the London boroughs. By and large, they are ahead of the rest of the country.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will grant subsidies to those local authorities who are contemplating providing floating homes in obsolete liners.

I have had no proposals from any local authority to provide such accommodation. And I have no power to pay subsidy towards the cost of such accommodation.

Would not the Minister agree that it is precisely in the river areas which are so desperately overcrowded that cabins for newly-married couples, who might not hit it off with their in-laws, would be desirable?

I hope that we can increase our housing provision and so avoid the need for this solution, which would have all sorts of implications regarding safety and other factors which would have to be taken into account; and which is anyway beyond my existing powers.

But does not the Minister agree that this problem is with us now?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the practice whereby gramophone record manufacturers sell 12 inch records lasting for less than 20 minutes instead of the normal 25–28 minutes, without giving any indication to the purchaser; and if he will seek powers to ensure that the playing time of a record is printed on the record sleeve.

As to the first part of the Question, I understand that it is not the usual practice to indicate the length of playing time on the record sleeve. The Answer to the second part is "No, Sir". The length of playing time is only one of many considerations when choosing gramophone records.

By what method can a buyer of a gramophone record discover that the playing time is falsified?

I am not a great buyer of gramophone records, but I am told that at most shops where records are sold facilities are provided for playing records before a purchase is made, so that there would not be the same need as my hon. Friend might think to require the playing time to be stated on the record sleeve.

Is my right hon. Friend suggesting that all record purchasers should time records bought from reputable companies? Will he have a survey made to see how widespread is this practice?

I do not think so. There are many other reasons for buying gramophone records than the actual playing time, including the artistic quality and other factors. The quality of the reproduction inevitably deteriorates a little as the centre of the record is approached, and therefore it might be a better buy to have a record with not such a long playing time. These are factors which I think are familiar to buyers of gramophone records. But if my hon. Friend wishes me to do so, I will look into the matter further.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the discouragement to British importers of Roumanian goods and to manufacturers wishing to export to Roumania caused by the delay in negotiating quotas for 1963; what was the reason for the Board's action in discontinuing the discussions in mid-September; and why nearly three months have elapsed without any resumption of these talks.

asked the President of the Board of Trade why the trade talks with Roumania have been discontinued at a time when trade with that country has been expanding; and when it is proposed to resume the talks.

The negotiations, which began in August, raised certain difficult points which required careful and detailed consideration. They have now been resumed and will, I hope, be concluded shortly. The previous quotas, which expired on 30th September last, have been renewed for a period of three months to allow trade to continue meanwhile.

Is it at all likely that negotiations have been resumed after this unnecessary delay because of Questions put on the Order Paper? Is not the whole position as regards East-West trade thoroughly unsatisfactory? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise the importance of East-West trade, apart from certain security difficulties, in dealing with the problem of unemployment in this country?

Yes, I fully appreciate the importance of East-West trade and particularly the importance of securing adequate outlets for our exporters, whether they are situated in development districts or elsewhere. That is one reason why the negotiations have been protracted. While I am always glad to answer Questions tabled by the right hon. Gentleman, or any other hon. Member, I can assure him that on thus occasion the tabling of Questions had nothing whatever to do with the resumption of negotiations.

Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that there is a great field for expansion of trade if the Board of Trade will drop its negative and dilatory attitude towards this matter? Is he aware that Roumania has the fastest growing economy of the Eastern bloc and is anxious to buy British plant? It is absurd that there should be this three months' delay. Will he negotiate increased quotas which certainly Roumania wants?

Quotas have certainly been increased in both directions in the last few years, but the Roumanians are, as we are, anxious to pay for imports. Shortage of sterling limits their capacity to buy.

Will my right hon. Friend moderate his enthusiasm for East-West trade by remembering that it is worth indulging in only if we are paid either in convertible currency or in commodities which we need—which, incidentally, do not include food products?

I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

In view of the information which has come to hon. Members about the difficult problem which faces us in connection with various aspects of East-West trade, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the whole matter and, after the Christmas Recess, make a statement on the subject to the House?

I did conduct an informal review within my Department a few weeks ago on a number of aspects of East-West trade. If the House would like to have a statement after the Recess, I shall do my best to oblige.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received about workers sabotaging machinery, so hindering his efforts to get industry to go from the Midlands to the North of England.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the nature of the evidence which he has received regarding the sabotage by Midland workers of machinery which had been dismantled for reassembly in the North of England; what has been the consequent damage to production; and what effect this has had upon trade generally and exports in particular.

A case was reported to me in confidence by one of the heads of the company concerned. I understand that the matter was satisfactorily settled by the management and, so far as I am aware, has not been repeated.

Ought not the President of the Board of Trade to substantiate what he has said either outside where he made the original statement, or in this House? Why does he go out of his way to create bitterness between one section of the community and another?

I should not at all mind substantiating the details if I thought that that would further the public interest, but, as the matter has already been settled, I think that to give further publicity to it would do more harm than good.

As this allegation was made to millions of viewers on television, would not the President of the Board of Trade ask the Postmaster-General to provide some evidence of this or repudiate what obviously is a dreadful slur on Birmingham and the Midlands?

I think I was quite right to mention this particular example as one of a number of forms of pressure which tend to slow down the movement of factories to the development districts. In the context of that particular occasion, I think it was quite right and proper that I should refer to it in passing.

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the number of highly placed civil servants who on retirement or resignation join industrial firms and other businesses within the restraint period, if he will now give consideration to amending the instructions governing this practice, in particular by restricting the right to accept employment with a firm which has contracted with the department in which the civil servant last served.

The existing rule was laid down in a White Paper, Cmd. 5517 of July, 1937, and requires that all civil servants of the rank of Under-Secretary or above, and those holding certain other posts of a special or technical character, should obtain the assent of the Government before accepting an offer of employment within two years from the date of retirement. I am satisfied that this rule is adequate, and that Ministers give the most careful consideration to applications made under it. The question of the contractual relationship which a firm may have with a Department in which a civil servant has been employed is, of course, one of the factors which is always taken into account.

Is the Prime Minister aware that in the last 10 years 126 civil servants and 65 military officers, who are subject to the Civil Service rule, have left within the two-year restraint period to take jobs in industry, and 82 of those civil servants went from the Ministry of Aviation to 56 firms which had contractual relations with that Department? Having in mind that the Ministry of Aviation has been subject to criticism by the Public Accounts Committee on its tendering practices and the radio contract awarded to Plessey, and that that firm has just received a Law Officer of the Crown, a Cabinet Minister and a high-ranking office—all of whom have gone within the restraint period—does this not indicate that there is a lapse in the rules governing transfers from the Service during the restraint period into these industries and that some sort of inquiry is warranted?

No, Sir. I do not think there has been any change in the method by which the rules have been applied. I think that, broadly, the public as a whole gains from a certain interchange between the Civil Service and industry.

Is the Prime Minister aware that, even if it is true that the public gains, it is also true that there is very grave public disquiet—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—there certainlyis—about whether the general standard in these matters is falling? Does he not think that in view of this widespread concern it would be wise now to have a proper inquiry into this matter, maybe by a joint Select Committee?

No, Sir. I do not think that is necessary. I think that the rules are being enforced and will be enforced.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is in the national interest that distinguished civil servants should join British firms from time to time, and that it leads to a greater understanding of the needs of Government and British industry? Further, does he agree that there have been no cases of abuse at all?

Is there not a case for inquiry from both points of view? Is it not inevitable today when the Government have so many commercial dealings that there is a change in the situation from what it was before the war? It may be desirable that civil servants should have more experience of industry, but is not this in itself a reason for having some inquiry into the matter? Is it altogether satisfactory that at present civil servants retire and go into industry but there is no comparable benefit from people coming from industry into the Civil Service? Is there not a need for a general inquiry into the present situation? Is there not disquiet in the country art large about this?

In regard to the first part of that supplementary question, it is perfectly true that there has been a change in the range of Government purchase and work in connection with industrial firms from which they make large purchases. That, I should have thought, would have been a reason not for tightening the rule, but, if anything, for relaxing it—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—because it is inevitable if there is a movement that this should take place. In regard to the second point, which raises am interesting concept, I think it a good thing that there should be close relations between industry as a whole and the Civil Service, for both have something to learn from each other. Although sometimes a civil servant goes long before his retirement date and that is a loss to the Civil Service, it is very often a gain to the general interests of the nation.

Does not the Prime Minister feel that the figures quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) about the number of civil servants who have left a single Ministry, the Ministry of Aviation, within the two-year period are very striking? Does he not feel that that merits some investigation? I appreciate that this is a difficult problem, but does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, in view of the fact that it is 25 years since the rule was originally made, it merits further inquiry?

I should be ready to see whether I think the rule ought to he altered. A great deal has happened; the Ministry of Aviation in this period has lived through a great number of changes, from the Ministry of Supply and the Ministry of Aircraft Production. All this great complex which grew up in the war has been changed. I agree that these are important considerations, but I have not the slightest doubt that absolute propriety is observed. It may be that there is some case for looking again at the actual wording of the rule.

Mrs. Castle.

On a point of order. Will you, Mr. Speaker, give consideration to the circumstances surrounding the question and the controversy about civilian firms inasmuch as one of the firms concerned issued a writ, or threatened to issue a writ, for libel when this controversy was blowing up, which handicapped some of us as we did not want to infringe the privileges of the House in a matter which might subsequently be regarded as improper. Later, when they thought that the matter was over, they promptly withdrew the threat of a writ for libel. In those circumstances, although it is a little belated, if the facts were submitted to you would you consider the matter as one of Privilege?

I shall have to consider that, if and when it arises, but do not let us do it in the middle of Questions.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Minister of Defence on European defence projects to the Assembly of Western European Union on 4th December represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Minister of Defence to the Assembly of Western European Union on the subject of European defence projects on 4th December represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Minister of Defence to the Assembly of Western European Union on the subject of European defence on 4th December in Paris represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

The hon. Members will no doubt now have read my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence's speech which has been placed in the Library, and will have seen that he made no reference to policy but, rather, presented a survey and assessment of some of the problems of defence as they confront the members of the Western European Union and, indeed, N.A.T.O. as a whole.

Would the Prime Minister tell us exactly what that speech means? Are the Government now prepared to play their part in the creation of a full-scale European deterrent? If so, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this move would be strongly deplored by all those who believe that the overriding need is for the creation of a nuclear-free zone in Europe by agreement with the Soviet Union? Will he concentrate all his efforts on that?

That is a rather wider and different question. My right hon. Friend's speech is now available. In it he refers to some very important questions which must arise, but he did not declare the Government's policy. On the question of the so-called European deterrent, there are all sorts of possibilities which have been canvassed. As far as I know, there is no proposal.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister of Defence's speech was made at an Assembly composed of Britain and the Six just after the Assembly had passed without opposition a motion calling for the creation of a European component of a Western deterrent, and that the Minister referred to very large defence projects indeed, based on large capital resources and markets, and that everybody interpreted this as giving British support to the concept of a European nuclear deterrent?

The very introduction of the word "market" must have made it almost certain that he did not refer to anything of the kind. I do not as yet know that the question of a European deterrent is even under discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No plan has been put forward. Certainly there could be no market for a deterrent.

May we have clarification of what exactly is meant by a European nuclear deterrent and a N.A.T.O. nuclear deterrent, because it seems to me that judgment on this must depend on what exactly is envisaged, and nobody seems to know.

We have put forward no plan. All sorts of plans have been discussed, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. I think that he himself has referred to such possibilities. But there are very big questions as to manufacture and control and as to what should be the nature of the control. So far these have not been resolved, and they have hardly even begun to be seriously discussed.

Would not the Prime Minister put an end to the doubts and misgivings which obviously exist by stating quite clearly that the Government are opposed to the creation of a European, N.A.T.O. or Common Market nuclear force and stand with the United States in demanding unified control of any such force?

I am glad to see that on this matter the hon. Member ranges himself beside General de Gaulle.

An important point is that much of the speech of the Minister of Defence was devoted to defending the British independent nuclear deterrent. Does not the Prime Minister think that it was a little untimely?

The British nuclear independent deterrent exists. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is it?"] It exists in a most powerful form, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, at the moment makes the major contribution in the West in the initial stages. I hope and believe that this policy of maintaining it will be satisfactorily carried on.

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the increase now taking place in unemployment in Jarrow and in the north-east region, what special steps he will take to deal with the problem.

The North-East should benefit substantially from the expansionary measures that have already been taken, including the field of public expenditure.

Does not the Prime Minister recognise that the steps which have been taken are totally inadequate, that some of these steps have already been in operation for two years, and that the problem gets worse rather than better? Does he not recall the speech which he made at Halifax on 31st March, 1958, when he said that if the economic situation gat worse, the Government had plans ready on the shelves to put into operation? When are the plans going to be put into operation to find for the growing number of unemployed the jobs which they require?

A great deal has been done both in general and in the particular sphere, and mare is being done.

asked the Prime Minister Which Ministers have a Departmental responsibility for research into and development of the opportunities of space technology; what are the particular spheres of responsibility of each Minister concerned; and which Minister is required to co-ordinate their various activities.

There is a distinction between the capacity to launch a vehicle into space and the particular uses which may be made of that capability. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation has a general responsibility for space technology. In consultation with him, the Minister for Science, the Minister of Defence, the Secretary of State for Air and the Postmaster-General are responsible, respectively, for scientific, defence, meteorological and communications aspects of space research.

I was not quite clear from my right hon. Friend's reply exactly who is responsible for co-ordinating their various activities. Would he please look at this again? Does he not agree that there ought to be some central co-ordinating authority in order to ensure that the maximum advantage is taken of space and other scientific research by Government Departments, universities and industry?

This is a very old and difficult problem of Governmental organisation. There are some who argue that if one takes a Minister and puts him in an office with a secretary, and makes him co-ordinate the work of other Ministers, it will produce the results that one wants. From some experience I have found that though that is a good method occasionally for certain specific purposes, on the whole the method of the Ministers mainly responsible working together is a more effective method.

Does the Prime Minister recognise that what I suspect my hon. Friend was suggesting was not imposing a new Minister as overlord but making one of the existing Ministers responsible for co-ordinating and initiating policy?

Yes, but I think that broadly speaking this system is working satisfactorily. There are two quite separate purposes. One is initiating and making the capacity to launch a vehicle, and the second is a great variety of purposes, such as communications, which must be the chief interest of the Postmaster-General, and meteorology, which is a matter for the Secretary of State for Air, for which the vehicle is used when it has been launched.

asked the Prime Minister which Minister is responsible for co-ordinating Government policy for bringing work to areas of unemployment.

Co-ordination of the many aspects of national policy involved is best secured by consultation between the Ministers concerned in different aspects of the problem.

Does that Answer mean that the Prime Minister has departed from the system which has been in force under almost all Governments since 1945 of placing the main co-ordinating responsibility on the Board of Trade? If there is no main co-ordinating Minister now, may not this be one explanation of the lamentable condition of these areas?

On certain aspects it remains upon the Board of Trade, but the more general aspects, such as the general economic matters, rest with the Treasury.

Is the Prime Minister aware that under this Government there are very few areas today in this country which are completely free from unemployment, and that the policy of moving industry from the Midlands and from London to the North can result only in an equalising of hardship all over the country?

While we must now be the last to minimise this difficulty, it would be a great mistake to exaggerate it. Compared with the situation in many other countries, the situation in this country is a very powerful one. We have to strike, as right hon. Gentlemen know from their own experience, a very delicate balance. An unemployment figure of 300,000 means a boom and very heavy over-employment in some areas. When it rises to 700,000, it is very serious. Our real trouble is surely not so much the general problem but the special problem of special industries and special areas.

In co-ordinating the Government's policy on unemployment, will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister ensure that he also co-ordinates with the Ministers in Northern Ireland so that an area which has still a higher and more persistent unemployment problem, in the face of unemployment in this country, can continue to attract new industry?

Yes. It is for that reason that we have had this very close relationship with the Government of Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend made a statement on this the other day. I have had several meetings, and continuous meetings, with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.

Does the Prime Minister appreciate that merely to concentrate upon the special areas, although these are enormously important, cannot solve the problem if there is also unemployment in other areas of the country? What is necessary is general expansion, combined with special action to steer industry into the special areas.

Yes. It is exactly that action which is being taken.