asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what estimate he has made of the average change in the rates which householders in Gloucestershire will have to pay following revaluation, assuming the county council incur the same expenditure as during the current year.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the estimate in the White Paper published last March. I hope within the next few weeks to publish analyses showing for each county, county borough and metropolitan borough the distribution of rateable value among the main classes of property in the old and new lists.

Do I take it from that reply that the average share which householders in Gloucestershire may be asked to pay might decrease by 4 per cent. if the expenditure remains the same? Would my right hon. Friend agree that if rates rise it will be because better services are being provided by the local authority?

I think I can safely agree to the last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. As to the first part, however, I must ask him to be patient until I publish the analyses.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will investigate the effect of green belts on land prices in urban areas adjoining green belts.

No, Sir.

As the green belts are generally located around towns which already are desperately short of land and, in consequence, there is a fantastic effect on land prices, would not the Minister agree that some less rigid form of control is necessary? Will he ensure that areas already scheduled are subject to periodic review?

I have to be careful here, because obviously we must reconcile the needs of the present with the needs of the future. I cannot, however, see that because restrictions force up prices in the neighbourhood that is a necessary reason for removing all restrictions. The important thing is to see that an adequate supply of land is forthcoming the whole time.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he proposes to make any change in the metropolitan green belt policy pursued by his predecessors; and if he will make a statement.

I have no intention of abandoning the green belt policy. I hope shortly to explain my views on the general housing situation in London, and shall say more then about the green belt.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as The Times said in its first leader yesterday, his statements on this matter have aroused suspicion and that his denial of any intention of raiding the green belt makes more enigmatic his assertion about the supply of land? Will he bear in mind that any serious interference with the metropolitan green belt will destroy one of Britain's finest planning achievements? Can he say nothing at all now about his statement?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman await my statement. I repeat that I have no intention of abandoning the policy of my predecessors. I am convinced that the green belt has a permanent part to play in the planning of Greater London.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also remember that the policy of his predecessors included an explicit statement by the present Home Secretary that he objected even to nibbling at bits of the green belt?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he has come to a decision on the amalgamation of the new towns of Peterlee and Newton Aycliffe; what is the nature of the new personnel responsible for administration; and whether the local authorities in the area have been consulted.

I am now consulting the local authorities on the proposal to appoint one board of eight people to be the corporations of these towns. Seven of the eight are already members of one or other of those corporations.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Easington Council, which is closely associated with certain aspects of administration in the town of Peterlee, has not yet been consulted? Why not appoint a member of Easington Council to the joint corporation of Peterlee because of the need for harmonising relations between the two bodies?

It is important to harmonise these relations, but one has to cover a wide range of subjects in the membership in order to make sure that there is someone with knowledge of each of the most important aspects. While local representation is very important, we have to keep a balance.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in view of the announcement that one development corporation will be responsible for the new towns of Newton Aycliffe and Peterlee, he will give consideration to the appointment of a resident of Newton Aycliffe to this corporation.

I think it important that some members of a new town corporation should live near to the town, but I cannot undertake always to find one who lives in the town. Much must depend on getting the right balance of experience and qualifications on the board.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, although the idea of setting up one board to cover these two new towns has been well-accepted by the local authorities in that area, the composition of the board so far is shocking and an insult? Surely it is not too much to ask that someone be appointed to the board from Newton Aycliffe itself? Is it not possible to appoint to the board a resident of one of the new towns it will cover?

I am in consultation with the local authorities concerned, and I hope that when the final decisions are made they will not be greeted by any such comments as the hon. Gentleman indicates.

A new board is to be set up and five members of the original board from one development corporation are appointed to it, but only two of the original board for the other new town. Surely the 13,700 residents of Newton Aycliffe have a right to representation on the new board?

I would prefer not to go into details of personalities while consultations are going on.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will ensure that all expenditure of local authorities in the North-East undertaken to diminish unemployment is regarded as normal expenditure for the purposes of Section 6 of the Local Government Act of 1958.

My right hon. Friend will be prepared to regard as eligible for rate-deficiency grant additional expenditure incurred by local authorities to reduce an exceptionally high level of unemployment.

Can the hon. Gentleman go a little further and give technical assistance on such things as industrial sites if a local authority has not sufficient staff itself?

That is another question. If the hon. Gentleman will put it down, I will apply my mind to it.

Will the hon. Gentleman extend this policy to parts of northern England which are not technically in the North-East, for example, south Yorkshire, where there is a high level of unemployment, though not as high as in the North-East?

The limiting factor is whether or not there are exceptional circumstances which my right hon. Friend can take into account. The area as such is not really crucial.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, following the recommendation of the recent Working Party on Rate Deficiency Grants, he has reduced the number of grant calculations for a year from three to two.

No, Sir. The report of the working party was intended only as a basis for further consideration. The recommendations are now being considered by the local authority associations in the light of the views of their members. My right hon. Friend will consult them and the London County Council as soon as they are ready, and in due course he will lay a report before Parliament.

Is the hon. Gentleman in favour of this move? Surely one of the ideas of the general grant was to simplify procedure. Here is a practical way of doing so and saving money.

I do not think I can anticipate my right hon. Friend's decision until he has had the consultations to which I referred. The Report has been published now in order to give local authorities time to make representations to their associations. We will continue consultations with the latter bodies as soon as those representations are in.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is yet in a position to make a statement concerning the development of the West Street site in Brighton.

My decision on the development plan proposals affecting this site was announced on 28th January.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I did not withdraw this question because I wanted to find out what the local council and my constituents felt about it? Is he further aware that the net result is that they are all very pleased and happy?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will amend the Clean Air Act to restrict the use of fuel oils to those of lighter viscosity.

No, Sir. The supply of lighter viscosity fuel oil falls far short of the total oil requirement of industry.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the heavier fuel oils emit far more sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere than lighter ones? In the interests of cleaner air, will he reconsider that decision?

I appreciate the truth of what the hon. Gentleman says, but about four-fifths of the fuel oil burnt in industry is of high viscosity. If that were banned there would be not nearly enough low viscosity oil to meet requirements.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the London smog in December, which had such fatal consequences, was due to the emission of sulphur dioxide? Is he doing nothing to prevent a recurrence of this condition in the London area?

As I think I have already told the hon. Gentleman, research is progressing. So far there is no real evidence that sulphur, without the combination of smoke, is dangerous to health. We are pressing on with our clean air procedure to limit the smoke.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will draw the attention of local authorities to the need to improve play facilities, especially in urban areas, for young children; and if he will make available grants for this purpose.

Authorities generally are well aware of any local needs of this kind. Where local authorities qualify for rate deficiency grant, revenue expenditure on any schemes they undertake will attract this grant, but my right hon. Friend does not think that a specified grant for this purpose is needed.

While I understand that it may not be possible to make grants, I am particularly concerned with play facilities for the under-fives, and I do not take the view that local authorities are sufficiently aware of the need. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore draw their attention, in particular, to the work which has been done by the Save the Children Fund in this respect and urge them to make sites for these facilities available, especially where they are building high flats?

We really do have remarkably few complaints of this nature and have no evidence that local authorities, with their local knowledge, are not well able to assess need. But I will think about the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, with a view to reducing damage caused by mining subsidence, he will bring forward amending legislation to ensure that where planning consent is being given to private developers to build on land liable to subsidence, the developers are required to lay down strenthened foundations for the buildings.

No, Sir. Amending legislation is not necessary. All local authorities in coal mining areas were advised in Circular No. 44/61 that the powers conferred by the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, enable them in appropriate cases to require structural precautions to be taken when permission is given for surface development.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that it appears that this has not been universally carried out? Would he make inquiries? Is he not aware that there are cases of houses and villas being built without strengthened foundations on land liable to mining subsidence, only causing future trouble and expense to the National Coal Board? Will he ensure that this requirement is universally applied to private development?

This is a matter for local planning authorities, but if the hon. Member will send me details of any case of which he knows, I will certainly look into it with the local planning authority concerned.

Will the hon. Gentleman also consult some of the people in the National Coal Board who are fully aware of this difficulty? Is he aware that in the great hurry to build private houses local authorities often do not insist that the foundations of houses in areas where mining subsidence has actually taken place should be reinforced? In the interests of both the Coal Board and the people who spend their money on these houses, is it not advisable for the Government to see that precautions are taken right at the beginning?

I can assure the hon. Lady that the local planning authority is required to consult the National Coal Board in coal working areas which have been notified to the authority by the Board, and that when it does so the Coal Board is always willing to advise on the stability or likely stability of the area.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what reply he has sent to the communication of the council of the county borough of Sunderland urging that grants be made towards the interest and sinking fund charges on loans raised to finance works costing up to £15,000 to alleviate unemployment.

No reply has yet been sent. Legislation would be required and the council's suggestion will be considered together with others addressed to my noble Friend, the Lord President of the Council, and other Ministers. I may add that rate deficiency grant will be payable to the council in respect of any expenditure of this sort. Their estimated rate of grant for 1963–64 represents nearly 24 per cent. of their expenditure.

I am obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary for saying that the matter is under consideration. Will he expedite that consideration, as I am sure he will appreciate that it is very important to encourage this work immediately in view of current unemployment?

I appreciate the urgency of the problem, but I think the hon. Member will agree that these matters are best not considered in isolation and should be considered in conjunction with other suggestions which have been put forward.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary agree that, if this requires legislation, to offer money at lower rates of interest would not? In view of the urgency of this problem, is it not desirable not to dither about it but to take some quick action to help these areas?

I have taken the hon. Gentleman's point, of course. According to my calculations, about 20 to 30 schemes of this sort could be started by this authority on the product of approximately ld. rate in this year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what discussions he is having with local authority associations about the revision of building byelaws to ensure that all new buildings are adequately protected against frost damage.

A draft of the building regulations which, under the Public Health Act, 1961, will replace building byelaws in England and Wales has been circulated to interested bodies, including the local authority associations. The draft includes a requirement that soil and waste pipes shall be placed internally in all new buildings in order to prevent the risk of frost damage. A number of comments on this point have been received from interested bodies, and these are now being considered by the Building Regulations Advisory Committee.

Does the hon. Member appreciate just how much sheer misery has been caused in recent weeks not only by the vulnerability of water pipes to frost damage, but by inadequate heating systems and lack of double windows? Are those items covered in the draft of the new byelaws? If they are not, would he consider something on those lines? In view of the £15 million worth of claims which have been made to insurance companies for damage to dwellings, should we not do everything we can to prevent such waste and hardship in future cold spells?

Clearly, recent experience is very much in our minds, but double windows are a little beyond the Question. However, I will keep the matter in mind.

Is the document to which the hon. Gentleman has referred and which has been circulated to local authorities available to hon. Members, or will it be made available?

I do not think that it has been made available, but we can ensure that it will be.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether in his consultations with the Minister of Power before confirming further smoke control orders, he ascertains whether smokeless fuel supplies are not only available but also suitable for the particular local conditions.

My right hon. Friend consults his right hon. Friend the Minister of Power on the basis of the local authority's estimate of fuel requirements in the prospective smoke control area.

Does the Minister agree that if the clean air policy is to succeed it is important that the hardship and distress caused by the change-over should be minimised as far as possible? Is he aware that many protests have been made in my constituency, particularly by elderly people, about the timing of the order and the cost aid suitability of the fuel available? Is he satisfied that there is adequate consultation between his Ministry, the Ministry of Health and Ministry of Power before an order is confirmed?

Yes, Sir. I assure the hon. Gentleman that no smoke control order is confirmed unless my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power advises that adequate supplies of the necessary fuels are available.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that there will not be an extension of smokeless zones until there has been a vast increase in the amount of premium smokeless fuels available?

I do not think that I can give that undertaking. The under-taking I can give is that every smoke control order will be considered in the light of the availability of fuels in the particular area.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why he has refused to confirm the West Bromwich Corporation, John Street, Carter Green No. 1, Compulsory Purchase Order.

The council's plans for redevelopment of the land in the order involved a substantial departure from the approved development plan. My right hon. Friend decided not to confirm the order because he agreed with the inspector that confirmation might appear to prejudice the decision on any amendment to the development plan and because he considered that clearance of the unfit houses could be secured without compulsory purchase of the land.

Is the Minister aware that this land will have to be developed in any case, and that when it is, as a result of his decision, it will cost the ratepayers of West Bromwich considerably more than it would have otherwise?

I think that this is a matter which will be under consideration when the necessary order comes before my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he has yet considered the proposals of the National Parks Commission for the planning of a long distance route suitable both for walkers and horse riders, leading from the western outskirts of Eastbourne along the South Downs to the Sussex-Hampshire border near South Harting, with the possible extension at a later date as far as Winchester; and whether it will be possible to use this in the summer of this year.

My right hon. Friend is considering the proposals. For much of its length the route is over existing footpaths, which can be walked already. Public rights for some 9 miles of bridle-ways need to be created. This is not likely to be done by this summer.

Can my hon. Friend say for how long this consideration will go on?

It is only three weeks since we had the full details on which to consider the case. I do not expect that the consideration will take very long, but the procedure for creating the necessary bridleways and footpaths is a somewhat lengthy process, and that is why I do not expect that it will be ready by the summer.

Does my hon. Friend realise that this applies very much to pony clubs? When he considers the distance from Eastbourne to Winchester, will he bear in mind that there are many councils which do not enforce the rules, which are not compulsory, to make sure that pony clubs are properly supervised? Will he therefore make certain that, before anything is done about this, everything is done to ensure that the ponies are properly fed and looked after over this long distance?

I do not think that the feeding of ponies comes under the National Parks Commission in this context.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what particular areas are now under review by the Local Government Commission for England.

The Local Government Commission for England currently has under review four broad areas. As their descriptions are lengthy, I will circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

While appreciating that local authority boundaries cannot be fixed for all time, will my hon. Friend set some limits to the activities of this Commission, bearing in mind the fact that the main result of its nine Reports issued so far has been widespread dismay and high expense incurred by these local authorities most closely implicated?

My hon. Friend will be aware that the terms of reference of the Commission were laid down in the 1958 Act and that there are no means by which we can interfere with them at this stage, even if we thought it was desirable to do so.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will urge on local authorities the importance of pro- viding an adequate supply of residential caravan sites in their areas.

Generally speaking I think that in the main the provision of residential caravan sites can be left to private developers. The important thing in my right hon. Friend's view—and this has already been made clear to the local authorities—is that permission for the establishment of such sites should not be refused unnecessarily.

Is the Minister not aware that there has been a considerable increase in caravan dwelling and that in many parts of the country there are not sufficient sites available for people to dwell in caravans? Will he reconsider his opinion in this respect?

I think that where there is a demand there are almost certain to be planning applications, which, if they are turned down, come to my right hon. Friend and these matters of need are considered.

Has the Minister a list of those local authorities which have made it quite clear that under no circumstances will they give permission within their areas for any residential caravans?

No, Sir.

Would the Minister agree that it ought to be part of the duty of local authorities to make sure that there are adequate sites in their areas for the need, and that if private developers are not meeting that need they should meet it themselves?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, local authorities have the power to do that, and I think he would agree that this is essentially a matter for local people to decide on local needs.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will consider amending the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960, in such a way that the issue of licences as specified under Section 3 of the Act shall depend on the licensee undertaking to give a reasonable security of tenure to his tenants.

My right hon. Friend does not think it would be practicable to deal with this matter by legislation.

Is the Minister aware that there have been a number of cases of people who have been evicted from what is their only home, from a caravan site, and that many of these people are young married families and old-age pensioners who have suffered considerable hardship as a result, and that there is, therefore, a strong case for some kind of security of tenure being written into the Act because of this hardship?

I appreciate the problem raised by the hon. Gentleman, but there are very considerable difficulties where we have site operators responsible for carrying out the conditions of licence under pain of considerable penalties. I suggest that the corollary is that site operators must have rather more control over tenants than would be proper in housing estates. This can be a dilemma—I realise that there are a minority of site operators who behave badly in this respect.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware that the existing arrangements for exemption from the need to apply for planning permission by Government Departments are in some cases working unsatisfactorily; and what steps he proposes to take to improve the position.

No, Sir. If my hon. Friend has a particular case in mind I shall be glad to look into it.

Is my hon. Friend aware that although the "Circular 100 procedure" is working well on the whole, there are occasions—and I would like to take up his offer of bringing a few to his attention—where Government Departments appear to be taking advantage of the fact that they are under no obligation to notify local planning authorities of detailed plans of any of their proposed buildings? Will my hon. Friend consider issuing instructions to ensure that detailed plans are in future submitted to local authorities by Government Departments who wish to build in their areas?

My hon. Friend is probably aware that where there is a dispute between a Government Department and a local planning authority my right hon. Friend is often asked to arbitrate. I have no evidence that the details are not supplied, but I shall make inquiries.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will make a statement on his discussions with the Building Societies' Association about loan policy for houses.

I am not yet ready to make a statement.

Are not cheap loans the key to the problem? Will the Minister consider subsidising loans at least for the lower-priced range of houses? For instance, could he not introduce loans at 3 per cent., because 6 per cent. is far too high for most people who want to buy houses?

I agree that interest rates are a significant factor. There are, however, other very significant factors, such as the size of the deposit and the length of loan. But I am glad to see that a number of building societies are looking at these factors.

Will the Minister also consider with the building society representatives the possibility of the building societies doing a little more to encourage the sale of houses to rent?

Yes, I think that is a very important point.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware of the practice of property companies in buying up old controlled houses with a view to their becoming decontrolled by the removal or death of the tenant that they are offering tenants money to move out and in some cases are unlawfully threatening tenants with eviction; and if, in order to prevent such abuses, he will now amend the Rent Act.

A controlled tenant is as fully protected today as he was before the passing of the Rent Act, 1957. In particular, he cannot be evicted without a court order. Financial inducements to move out are not illegal, but a tenant should consider any offer very carefully before accepting it.

If I send it to him, will the Minister read the eviction order which I have in my hand which was sent to an old-age pensioner aged 73 in my constituency who had lived in the house and paid his rent regularly since 1913? Is the Minister aware that when I took up the matter with the firm, which is trebling the rents as soon as it gets tenants out, the firm hastily replied that it had made a mistake? Cannot the Minister do something to stop this kind of exploitation, which is taking place on a wide scale?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will send me the papers.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the one great difference between the situation now and the situation before 1957 is that when the tenant moved out in those days into another dwelling it was still controlled, whereas now he moves into a place which is decontrolled and has no security of tenure?

The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. The tenant generally could not move into any other decontrolled dwelling in those days because the landlord, having got the previous occupant out, sold it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is aware that since 1951 the purchasing power of the £ sterling has depreciated by 27 per cent., the index of retail prices has increased by 47 per cent., expenditure on private house building has increased by 816 per cent., and expenditure on local authority housing until 1961 had decreased by 11 per cent. and as this is making it difficult for councils such as West Ham to carry out their slum clearances, war damage reconstruction and normal house building development, what action he proposes to take to assist the county borough of West Ham in developing its housing programme.

As to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to him on 29th January. As to the second part, I do not think West Ham lack adequate resources to carry on with their slum clearance and housing programmes. They can apply for the special supplemental housing subsidy which was introduced in the Housing Act, 1961, and which is designed to help local authorities whose housing operations are putting an unduly high burden on the rates.

I appreciate that West Ham is a progressive council which has done a wonderful job notwithstanding the obstacles placed in its way by the Government. However, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that if there were low rates of interest and if this progressive council were given further financial aid and assistance it could build even more houses for those who are in urgent need? As he has claimed that it is his policy and desire that there should be more houses for those in urgent need, will he not consider that to see whether something further can be done?

West Ham can try to make use of the extra rate subsidy available to those who need it. I await its application.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs in what circumstances a letter of 6th July, 1961, addressed by the honourable Member for Cardiff, South-East, to Western Ground Rents Ltd., has been received by him in his official capacity; and for what purpose he has received it.

A copy of the letter was sent to the Lord Chancellor on 11th July, 1961, by a director of Western Ground Rents Ltd., who thought that the information furnished in reply would be of interest to Ministers. A further copy was sent to me with the same object on 3rd December, 1962.

May I take it that the Minister did not ask for this correspondence?

indicated assent.

While I am glad to have that assurance, is it not very highhanded of Western Ground Rents to send correspondence which I have with it to Ministers and to the Lord Chancellor without seeking my permission or getting my consent? What confidence can we have in a company which behaves in this high-handed way?

I do not think that the Minister can be asked to express a view about the conduct of a company, but the rest of it is all right.

I was only going to confirm that I did not in any way ask for this correspondence.

Did the Minister have any more satisfactory replies to his questions than I had? Does he think that the policy of Western Ground Rents in relation to the sale of its freeholds is satisfactory?

That is quite another question.

Remembering that correspondence which I had with this firm was given to an hon. Member opposite and read out in the House in our last debate on this subject, can the Minister tell me whether he has had any of my recent letters to Western Ground Rents, and, if he has those letters, whether he does not agree that the harsh tone which I adopted in them was well deserved?

I have not been privileged with the sight of that correspondence, but I am glad to say that the two letters which I have seen and to which the Question refers were both conducted in very courteous and clear tones.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware that in certain cases families have been denied flats by landlords because they have successfully applied to rent tribunals for a reduction in the rent of their present accommodation and what action he is taking to ensure that successful applicants to rent tribunals are not subsequently penalised.

One such case was reported recently in the Press. I have heard of no others. Landlords are, of course, entitled to inquire into the suitability of an applicant for a tenancy, but I would deplore discrimination against him simply because he has exercised a right given by Parliament. At the same time, it must be recognised that it is impossible to compel owners by law to let to tenants they do not want.

Has the right hon. Gentleman investigated what looks like a nasty bit of victimisation by the Midland Bank Executor & Trustee Company Ltd., which refused a tenancy to a man who had made a successful application for a reduction in rent before the Croydon District Rent Tribunal? May not this be one of a large number of cases where tenants are being victimised by landlords for having the presumption to exercise their legitimate rights under existing legislation?

I think that it is wrong of the hon. Gentleman, on the evidence of one case, to say anything that might frighten tenants from using the rights that Parliament has given them. I have heard of this one case and I have deplored the action, but I have no evidence that this is widespread.

While realising that it is difficult for my right hon. Friend to do much about these cases and the matter in general, would he agree that in many cases these landlords of slum furnished accommodation form a very close ring and that they are invariably able to get rid of tenants, at any rate within six months of an appeal to a rent tribunal, and then ensure that they get in nowhere else?

I would be grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend if he could let me have any evidence to support that. There are powers in the hands of local authorities which can be used in appropriate cases—I stress in appropriate cases—and I would be grateful for any evidence that he has.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is aware that the present maximum grants permitted for conversion to smokeless grates are still insufficient to enable conversion to the more expensive closed stoves capable of burning the cheaper fuels; and, in view of the shortage of premium fuels suitable for open grates, if he will authorise an increase in the grants for closed stoves suitable for consuming the more plentiful cheaper fuels.

Where stoves are installed, grant under the Clean Air Act is normally based on the notional cost of open fires designed for burning smokeless fuel. In areas where supplies of smokeless fuels suitable for open fires are likely to be inadequate, my right hon. Friend is prepared to consider relating the grant to the actual cost of stoves, but he must take into account the availability of suitable gas cokes as well as the availability of premium fuels.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply and the information which I am sure will be welcomed in many smokeless zones, will he ensure that some examination is made of the position in Sheffield, particularly, where there is a serious shortage of these fuels and where there has been difficulty in getting adequate grants to enable closed fires to be installed.

I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power is considering the position in a number of areas other than the North-East where this applies at the moment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many houses in Stoke-on-Trent, and nationally, were improved with the aid of standard and discretionary grants up to 30th September, 1962.

Since mid-1959, 38 dwellings have been improved in Stoke-on-Trent with standard grants and, since 1949, 2,476 with discretionary grants. In England and Wales the comparable figures are 247,935 and 333,002, respectively.

In view of those figures, and comparing them with the number of houses in areas like Stoke-on-Trent which could be made into good houses if they had modern amenities, will not the Government now consider doing more to persuade people—and landlords in particular—to improve their houses by adding modern amenities? Will the hon. Member ask the Minister whether local authorities can be given grants in order to make these improvements, and for a certain number of years to guarantee the rents to the landlord, providing that the control of the houses was in the power of the local authorities?

My right hon. Friend is very anxious that more use should be made of these grants, and he will certainly consider any suggestions that are made, including those of the hon. Lady. She will be aware that we have been trying to give more publicity to these grants. She probably knows that a demonstration was held in her own area and that this led to a considerable increase in the use of these provisions in that area. That is to be welcomed.

Yes, but is the hon. Member aware that after that demonstration in Stoke-on-Trent, to which a great deal of publicity was directed, only one landlord in the area has taken advantage of the grant? All the others are owner-occupiers. It is the landlords to whom we should direct our publicity.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will investigate the possibility of producing factory-built housing units that can be placed in terraces and readily extended so as to provide accommodation considerably cheaper than the present estimates of about £3,000 for a one-bedroom flat.

My Department's Research and Development Group is already working on a system of factory-built housing suitable for all forms of lay-out, including terraces. The first prototype terrace of four houses was completed in Sheffield a month ago. Also, a number of building firms have taken licences on continental systems, or are developing their own systems of flat or house-building using factory made components.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will those components be useful in in-filling blitzed sites, which present a special problem in many cities?

We have not yet got a fully reliable system for use in small numbers and for small buildings. I hope that the type which is being developed by my Ministry can fill this gap, but it is only at the prototype stage. We would like other systems to serve this purpose.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what consideration he has given to the communication he has received from the hon. Member for Fulham concerning the policy pursued by the ground landlord of property in Fulham Perk Gardens, S.W.6.

I have today replied to the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that in this case the ground landlord was offering to sell the freehold to the leaseholder only on condition that the leaseholder had not let any of the premises? Since that conflicts with the Government's policy of trying to bring more private rented property on to the market, does not the Minister agree that this is an additional argument for legislation to enable leaseholders to obtain freeholds without conditions of this kind?

No. This question of enfranchisement is a very large one. In this case the lessee does not have to buy the freehold. He has the protection of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1954, if his lease is near its end.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the inadequacy of the reports on Government action in Wales in past years, what steps he is taking to provide more comprehensive information.

The Annual Report on Developments and Government Action in Wales has been considerably expanded in recent years, but I shall be glad to consider any suggestions for developing it further.

Is the Minister aware that the Welsh Report contains only nine pages dealing with agriculture, for example, while the Scottish Report has 96 pages dealing solely with that subject, and that in the Welsh Report there is no reference to the profitability of the industry compared with other areas, nor any breakdown of the Price Review? Will he consider whether more information can be given in the Report, as most of it otherwise has to be obtained by Question and Answer?

I will gladly consider the omissions which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. It is true that Scotland has a substantial report entirely devoted to agriculture, but it does not have a report on general development covering the whole field, as Wales does, and of which the section on agriculture is only one chapter.

While I do not wish to compare Welsh statistics with those of other parts of the United Kingdom, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the section dealing with education ought to be extended and deepened? Will he also consider that?

I would be grateful if the hon. Member would give me some of the points on which he thinks the Report is weak—perhaps in correspondence. I will certainly look at them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when the final recommendations of the Welsh County Boundaries Commission will be published.

As soon as possible, but I understand from the Stationery Office that this is unlikely to be before early March.

Will the Minister publish this recomendation in the Welsh language in addition to the English language?

No, that is not planned at the moment.

Can the Minister say how soon after the publication of the Report, early in March, he will be able to make a pronouncement upon it?

No. Several processes still have to be gone through, and there has to be a public inquiry if sufficient objections are made. Only after that do I have to make recommendations to Parliament.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs which Government Departments have expressed views to the Local Government Commission for Wales relating to the matters before the Commission.

Information about the material provided by Government Departments for the Commission is contained in their Report which will be published shortly.

Will not the Minister give the details of the Departments which have given evidence? Can he say whether witnesses from these Departments will be available to give evidence at the public inquiry which may follow the publication of the Report?

The last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is a separate question. Perhaps he would put it on the Order Paper. Regarding the first part, the Government Departments did give information in response to specific requests from the Commission, as I told the hon. Gentleman on 16th July.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs for what purpose the members of the Local Government Commission for Wales have been reappointed following the submission to the Minister of their Report and Proposals relating to local government reorganisation in Wales.

In order that they should be in office when their report is published.

Will the Minister say whether there is any more work for them to do and whether any remuneration will be paid to them after their reappointment?

There may be consultations to be carried out with them, but it is not in mind that they should give evidence at the inquiries—I am answering the hon. Member's first question. Their job is to give advice to the Government, not to support the advice they give when the inquiry stage is reached.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question about remuneration?

Perhaps the hon. Member will put that down on the Order Paper.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement regarding his latest official communication with the Prime Minister of Belgium.

Any communications I may have with M. Lefevre would be confidential.

In the light of recent events, what consideration has the right hon. Gentleman given to the possibility of raising the status of the Western European Union Standing Council which is meeting in London, and possibly transferring it to Brussels, where, in fact, it came into existence as a result of the Treaty of Brussels?

I will take note of that proposal.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement regarding his latest official communication with Mr. Nehru.

I am in close and frequent communication with Mr. Nehru about the many matters which are of concern to us both, but it is not normal practice to disclose the content of confidential consultations with other Commonwealth Prime Ministers.

Can the Prime Minister give any indication how far Her Majesty's Government have gone in their policy to facilitate talks on Kashmir and the differences between India and Pakistan?

As the hon. Member probably knows, these talks are continuing, and we must hope for their success.

May I congratulate the Prime Minister on the help he is giving to Prime Minister Nehru at a very difficult time? Further, will he leave to the discretion of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers the very delicate and complicated problem of India-Pakistan relations?

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for what she has said.

asked the Prime Minister if he has now considered whether the 25 year-old rules governing the movement of civil servants from the Civil Service to industry, contained in Cmd. 5517, are still appropriate in present circumstances; what alterations he proposes; and if he will make a statement.

I have reviewed the rules set out in the White Paper Cmd. 5517 of 1937. I am satisfied that these rules have achieved the purposes for which they were drawn up and that in their operation account is taken of changing circumstances. I will, with permission, circulate a fuller statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The Prime Minister has not indicated to what extent he has made this inquiry. Is not he aware that the Ministry really responsible for the Questions on the Order Paper is the Ministry of Aviation? That Ministry has flouted the rule embodied in the White Paper to which the Prime Minister has referred, especially in regard to paragraph 5 (a) dealing with civil servants who have lent their services within two years of the restraint period and joined industries with which they were in contractual relations? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is the Ministry that deals with all the mammoth contracts involving mis- siles, rockets, arms, aircraft, aero-engines, and so on? Surely a further statement is required. The Prime Minister should consider having an inquiry into the Ministry of Aviation at least.

The statement that I am circulating is inevitably a rather long one. If the hon. Member wishes to take up any specific point, perhaps he will put down a Question after the circulation of this statement.

It would be acceptable to most of us, and I hope it would be acceptable to my lion. Friend, if the Prime Minister is willing to discuss it with us after we have seen his fuller statement. But does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that although the basis agreed between himself and Mr. Gaitskell earlier seems to be true, when one looks at the wording of the Command Paper of 1937, inevitably the words there set down do not cover the existing situation, as there have been so many changes in Government relationships with the outside world since then? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore keep an open mind in the matter until we have seen his fuller statement and then be willing to have discussions with us about it?

After the statement has been circulated I shall be very ready to answer any questions. In view of the feeling about long answers in the House, since the statement was rather long I thought it wiser to have it printed.

I do not know whether the Prime Minister listened to what I said, but he used different words. I did not ask if he was williing to answer any question. I know that he would be willing to do that. I asked whether he would be willing to have discussions with us about it after we had seen the statement.

That is another question. I would like to consider it. In answer to the original Question, I said that I would naturally answer any points which the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) might care to raise.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now give instructions to bring the control of all non-ferrous scrap metals under one Department, namely, the Board of Trade.

No, Sir. There is already close consultation about export controls between the two Departments principally concerned.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is a hang-over from the war period that we should have non-ferrous metals controlled both by the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Aviation? Would not it be more efficient to bring them under one Ministry, and would my right hon. Friend agree to look at this matter again if I write to him?

I The President of the Board of Trade deals with copper, lead, zinc and nickel, The Ministry of Aviation deals with aluminium, magnesium and titanium in view of the great importance of these metals to the aircraft industry I should be happy to consider the matter again if my hon. Friend would write to me.

asked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for the Secretary of State for Scotland to be given further opportunities to answer Questions at Question Time, in view of the deteriorating economic situation in Scotland.

The order of Questions is constantly under review and is a matter which is arranged after consultation through the usual channels.

Is the Prime Minister aware that were he to examine the present order of Questions he would notice that the combined top-of-the-list appearances of English Ministers with duties similar to those of the Secretary of State for Scotland total 13 against one appearance by the Secretary of State for Scotland? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this means that hon. Members who do not represent Scottish constituencies may ask 26 Oral Questions, whereas hon. Members who do represent Scottish constituencies are allowed to ask only two? Does not that savour of discourtesy to Scotland? Will not the Prime Minister see to it in future that hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies may have more opportunities to get to their feet to speak for Scotland?

I have, of course, every sympathy with the hon. Gentleman. But the management of Questions is not a matter for me personally. By discussion in the ordinary way we try to get what best suits the House as a whole. It is difficult to please everybody. But I think that the system we use is the best to protect the interests of the House as a whole.

Does the Prime Minister realise that the 71 hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies constitute one-ninth of the membership of this House and that therefore they should have at least one-ninth of the opportunities of putting Questions and receiving Answers? Whatever may be the office procedure governing the order of Questions, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that justice is done to Scotland?

I think that the mathematical point is important. No doubt it will sift its way through the usual channels in due course.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the outcome of his visit to the Italian Prime Minister.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his recent official visit to Rome.

I would refer hon. Members to the joint communiqué issued after my talks with Signor Fanfani.

Is the Minister aware that I read that joint statement with interest? May I ask whether he will give further thought to his suggestion of a link-up between Western European Union and N.A.T.O., for the reason that W.E.U. was formed to oppose German rearmament and N.A.T.O. was formed to promote it? How can the right hon. Gentleman reconcile the synthesis of these opposites, unless it means that he is now determined to proceed with the total rearmament of Western Germany, including nuclear rearmament?

I can reconcile the synthesis only by accepting neither the premise nor the conclusion.

Can the Prime Minister tell us to what extent he advised the Italian Prime Minister to come in over an independent deterrent and half-a-dozen Polaris submarines, and whether in his reply the Italian Prime Minister said he could not be independent because Italy is buying oil from the Soviet Union?

I do not wish to add to the communiqué, but I think it was made clear that the Italian Government welcomed the proposals made at Nassau with regard to the N.A.T.O. position about the deterrent.

Is it the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take the initiative in proposing closer political unity in Europe, which, presumably, is not ruled out by the breakdown of negotiations for entry into the European Economic Community?

All these are large questions which were discussed. I understand that we are to have a two-day debate on this matter, the situation resulting from the breakdown of the Brussels negotiations, and I think that they would be more easily dealt with in that debate.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is possible to be in favour of European unity without necessarily being in favour of the Treaty of Rome? In the circumstances, is not there a great area of co-operation open to those who are in favour of the Treaty of Rome and to those who are opposed to it in connection with the unification of Europe?

Yes, Sir. I always understood that the hon. Gentleman was in favour of both!

asked the Prime Minister to what extent during his last conversations with President de Gaulle he discussed a possible new approach to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

As I have already said, these conversations were confidential and I am not prepared to add to what has already been said about them.

Is not the Prime Minister aware that in every capital of the world discussions are taking place about the possibility of General de Gaulle starting a new approach to the Soviet Union? In view of the fact that he himself started an approach, how can the Prime Minister object to this attitude if General de Gaulle adopts it? Will the right hon. Gentleman keep an open mind regarding any initiative from any quarter likely to bring about better relations with the U.S.S.R., which would be welcomed throughout the world?

That is another question. We have received no information on the subject from the French Government. We are to debate this matter at length, and I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.

In view of the fact that the action of General de Gaulle is likely to make it more difficult for us to sell our goods in Europe, ought not we to take every possible step to increase East-West trade as a means of compensation?

We have been doing that to a great extent over a long period. I think that what the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) had in mind was a political rather than an economic initiative.