asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate has been made of the cost to farmers in England and Wales of providing new facilities for effluent disposal as a result of the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) Act 1961.

No worthwhile estimate of such costs is possible as the circumstances of farms vary so much.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this new Act is causing great concern to farmers in many parts of the country? I appreciate that my hon. Friend says that there is wide variation from farm to farm, but there is also wide variation from river authority to river authority. Farmers everywhere in low-lying land are most concerned about this. Will my hon. Friend try at an early date to give some assurance to the farming community that they will not be unreasonably persecuted by the river authorities?

I understand my hon. Friend's concern. I have no doubt that the river boards will use their discretion in imposing conditions which farmers will have to meet before continuing to discharge effluent into streams.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made by the Covent Garden Market Authority in its search for a new site for the market.

Last April the Authority commissioned a firm of consultants to study a number of sites in relation to the many factors involved. I understand that the Authority expects to receive the consultants' report within the next three or four weeks.

Presumably this refers to sites outside the Covent Garden area, but in view of the fact that the Act authorises the Authority only to establish a new market inside the Covent Garden area, will not some of this expenditure appear to be going to be abortive?

This firm of consultants has surveyed a number of sites outside. My right hon. Friend will remember that during the passage of the Bill through Parliament it was said that

"… it is not the intention of the Minister of Agriculture to withhold his consent to the promotion of a Private Bill in Parliament by the Authority empowering it to build the Market elsewhere …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 13th July, 1961; Vol. 233, c, 281.]

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much beef was imported from Yugoslavia during 1962.

The provisional figure is 39,000 tons, out of total beef imports for the year of 320,000 tons.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is alleged that much of this meat is the product of a "forced feeding" technique in which excessive quantities of tetracyclin and other antibiotics are used to promote growth? Would my right hon. Friend investigate this matter in the interests of public health?

Since my hon. Friend has made this statement, I will of course look at it, but this is news to me.

Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of this beef is bull beef?

Certainly not without a little more notice.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will publish in full the terms of the Irish Sugar Agreement before Parliament is asked to give further consideration to the matter in the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

The Press notice published on 1st November, 1962, gave full details of our agreement on sugar with the Irish Republic. At my hon. Friend's request, a copy of the draft Agreement was placed in the Library of the House. The Agreement will not be signed until Clause 21 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill has been approved by Parliament and received the Royal Assent.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his behaviour in this matter gives the impression that he is a rather cloistered individual and that he has something to withhold? Is he further aware that the general sugar interests in this country, including my own constituency interest, have had very wide concern with the details of the Agreement? Would it be in order for me to photocopy the copy in the Library and distribute it to the interests concerned? If that is in order, why cannot my right hon. Friend do it from his Ministry and save me the trouble and inconvenience?

There is no question of anything being hidden. In fact, everything that matters was put out in the Press release which was circulated at the time; all the relevant things were included in it. My hon. Friend asked me some time back whether I could make fuller details available to him, and I said that I would see that a copy was put in the Library. There is no question of secrecy in this regard.

We had a very full debate on this Irish Sugar Agreement in Standing Committee on the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. Would the Minister recommend his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir G. Nabarro), who seems to wish to snipe at this Agreement, to read our proceedings carefully?

It is not the duty of the Minister to make recommendations to his hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he will make a statement about the proposed improvement scheme to alleviate flooding in Nottingham from the River Leen.

My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to give a decision on the river board's proposals for the improvement of the River Leen within the next two weeks.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the Minister has had the Trent River Board proposals for eighteen months? Why all this lengthy delay? Does the hon. Gentleman further realise that in my constituency there are people who have suffered from flooding more than once and who daily dread another catastrophe? Will he persuade his right hon. Friend to stop behaving like a broody hen and to put forward proposals which will end for ever the threat to property, homes and livelihoods in my constituency?

As I have said, the decision should be given within two weeks. I should have thought that that would satisfy the hon. Gentleman. It is an extremely costly scheme, which is why some time has had to be taken in deciding.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will issue to his district officers a schedule of agricultural machinery that comes under the safety regulations.

This information is contained in explanatory leaflets which we issue to all officers engaged on safety work.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, as the detailed interpretation of safety regulations is left to individual district officers without the guidance of a full schedule, there is a lack of uniformity over the country as a whole in applying the regulations to certain types of machinery?

I do not think that there is a lack of uniformity. We are taking steps to have all the various regulations amalgamated. All the officers concerned with this matter are very carefully trained and fully understand the regulations.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what effect the extension of the Faroese fishing limits will have on the United Kingdom fishing industry; and if he will make a statement.

Negotiations with the Danish Government on the future arrangements for fishing by British vessels around the Faroe Islands started today and I cannot speculate about the outcome.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but it seems that this move towards an extension of limits will go on. Is he aware that many fishermen, in Aberdeenshire particularly, who have been as much affected, if not more so, by an extension of the Faroese limits, feel strongly that this process cannot go on and on without our taking some sort of reciprocal action to safeguard, expand and conserve our native fishing industry within the extended limits of our own territorial waters?

I assure my hon. Friend that I am well aware of the importance of these waters and of these talks to the middle-water fishing industry.

Even though the Minister cannot speculate on the outcome of these talks, will he at least state who the delegates are, their names and status and the agenda for the talks so that we may know what is the purpose of the talks, as they have been kept a dead secret up to the present moment?

It has been well known for some time that these talks would take place, although the time was not known. A delegation has come over from Denmark consisting of representatives from the Faroes and from the Danish Government. The talks will be continuing during this week on the question of the limits round the Faroes.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proportion of the country's poultry has now been protected from fowl pest by the use of approved vaccine.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state, to the nearest convenient date, the percentage of poultry keepers who have applied for vaccine to combat fowl pest, the number of poultry vaccinated, and the cost to his Department of this vaccine; and if he will make a statement on the effects of vaccination against fowl pest.

Since 5th November, last year, my Department has sold some 32 million doses of subsidised vaccine purchased at a cost of approximately £170,000 and resold to poultry-keepers at just under ½d. per dose for about £64,000. It is estimated that not more than about 10 per cent. of poultry-keepers in England and Wales have applied for vaccine, and that protection has been given to not more than about one-quarter of the turnover of poultry in the country during this period.

I wholly agree with what my right hon. Friend has said and feel as disappointed as he does. Cannot we rub it in more effectively to poultry keepers, now that the weather is a little open, that they must protect themselves by the end of March and that no longer will the Government provide compensation on slaughter through fowl pest and that it rests with the industry as well as with the Ministry to get on with this job, attend the demonstrations, see how the job is done, and find out that it is not all that difficult or expensive?

I agree with everything that my hon. Friend has said. I hope that his Question and the Answer to it will receive suitable publicity in the poultry industry. We have sent to every known poultry keeper in England and Wales a leaflet about the scheme and an application form for the vaccine.

I am sure that the Minister will agree with me that this is a most depressing report——

We must have questions at Question Time, not speeches.

Will the Minister agree that the report is really depressing since the vaccination of poultry started in this country? Is he satisfied that all the vaccine used is of the required standard? Is he considering whether to make vaccination compulsory in view of the small percentage of poultry keepers availing themselves of this method of trying to combat fowl pest?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the efficacy of the vaccine is not in doubt. What has happened is that an insufficient number of poultry keepers has taken advantage of it. We should like to see an 85 per cent. coverage. I hope and believe that, when both the effects of this scheme and of failure to carry out vaccination are fully understood, we shall get a much better coverage than hitherto.

What steps does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to put over to poultry keepers, especially the smaller ones, the value of having poultry vaccinated? This seems to be the real difficulty. There must be more advertising of the value of vaccination.

Apart from what I said about circularising known poultry keepers, the National Fowl Pest Campaign Committee is organising an intensive campaign to be launched within the remaining weeks of this month before the slaughter policy ends on 31st March. We need to have 14 million doses of vaccine taken up weekly to get adequate coverage.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to what extent the snow and frost in January affected the home supply to the markets of eggs, milk, meat, potatoes and vegetables; and what estimate he has made of the losses sustained by farmers.

Supplies of many vegetables have been reduced by crop damage and harvesting difficulties. Eggs and potatoes have also been affected to some extent. Supplies of meat and liquid milk have been well maintained. In many parts of the country the unusually severe weather has called for a high degree of human endeavour and ingenuity to keep supplies flowing off the farm and into the distribution chain. Farmers in some parts have undoubtedly suffered serious losses. I am not in a position to make a reliable assessment of the overall loss, but the situation to date appears to be far less serious than in 1947.

Will my right hon. Friend take every opportunity he can in public of paying credit to the farm-workers and farmers, who have done a magnificent job in keeping things going in feeding and watering stock? Is it not rather remarkable that he has not had to give us calamitous figures of the losses in livestock and in vegetable crops? Does he not regard it as great testimony to the ingenuity and perseverance of the farming community that he does not have a much worse story to tell?

Yes, that is indeed so. We are certain that the situation to date in regard to losses is far less serious than it was in 1947.

Is the Minister aware that the Opposition also would like to be associated with his remarks concerning the magnificent work which our farmers and farmworkers have done in a very serious situation?

Does the Minister propose to make any estimate of the quantities of livestock which perished miserably on Dartmoor through being frozen to death during the last few weeks?

Inevitably, there have been losses of livestock in some hill areas; it is inevitable in a winter like this.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the long duration and widespread application of the swine fever restrictions on the movement of weaners and fatteners is causing financial hardship among pig breeders and is being interpreted as a device for diminishing his Department's financial liability in readiness for the commencement of compensating payments, beginning next month; and if he will give an assurance that these restrictions will be lifted as soon as practicable.

The incidence of swine fever in 1962 was considerably higher than in previous years and it is important that it be reduced in order to provide the best possible prospect that the forthcoming slaughter policy will speedily eradicate the disease. The imposition of area restrictions is a well proved method of reducing the incidence of the disease. I realise that these restrictions involve hardship and I can assure my hon. Friend that they are lifted as soon as it is safe to do so. I am sure that pig producers understand that the measures taken to eradicate the disease are in their interests as much as in the Exchequer's

In thanking my right hon. Friend for his Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that in areas where there has been an outbreak, and in more distant areas, the movement of pigs and particularly of weaners and fatteners has been virtually prohibited for weeks?

I assure my hon. Friend that we do not maintain these restrictions unnecessarily. The whole industry realises the importance of the new policy, which we will be starting in March, of trying to eradicate the disease. It is essential to set the scene and to get the disease at as low a level as possible before we begin so that it may succeed as quickly as possible in the interests of the industry as a whole.

Will my right hon. Friend keep all the present arrangements constantly under review to see whether their working can be modified or improved in any way as we go along?

I assure my hon. Friend that movement restrictions in all the counties are constantly reviewed. We have lifted eight recently and two more are coming off this week.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the estimated tonnage of sugar beet lost because of the recent severe wintry conditions; and what was the subsequent loss in revenue to farmers.

It is estimated that about 350,000 tons of sugar beet are still in the ground. The British Sugar Corporation is taking samples to see whether there is sufficient of it suitable for processing to justify opening a factory.

Is the Minister aware that many thousands of tons of sugar beet are still in the ground in Norfolk, including my constituency, and that the loss to small farmers, in particular, who have not been able to get the beet into the factories for processing is extremely serious and will make all the difference between profit and loss in their present year's accounts? Is the Minister considering taking this matter into account in this year's Price Review?

The figure which I have given represents about 6 per cent. of the total crop. The position is not the same for all farmers and I am advised that by far the majority arrange, in their own interests, to lift all their beet by the end of December and store it in roadside clamps pending delivery to the factory. Sugar beet is grown under contract and, as the hon. Member knows, there is no compensation for loss of crop.

Will my right hon. Friend consider making representations to some of the sugar beet factories in the areas most affected—particularly Cantley, in Norfolk—to keep open as long as they can in case the sugar beet can be got in?

If it is an economic operation—that is, if the sugar beet can be moved and the sugar content is sufficient—the British Sugar Corporation would reopen a factory.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in the proposed discussions on the future of British agriculture, import control will be considered.

Our policy on imports and our overseas trading arrangements are certainly relevant to a review of our system of agricultural support.

Is the Minister aware that this is one of the key issues concerning our deficiency payment system and support policy? Will he give it high priority?

As I have said, this is an integral part of our arrangements.

Will the Minister also consider the proposals of the Lucas Committee, which seem to me to be particularly appropriate in the present context?

There is to be a wide range of considerations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we must have a sensible import policy and that if we do not our deficiency payments will be that much higher, thus raising other problems?

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now make a statement on the future of horticultural marketing.

I have already arranged for a fact-finding survey of wholesale horticultural markets. This is being conducted by my Department and the Department of Agriculture for Scotland. As a first step, local authorities have been asked to reply to a questionnaire covering the location and use of markets, the accommodation provided, plans for future development and other matters. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are setting up an interdepartmental committee to consider the results of this survey as soon as they are available and to discuss them with all the interests concerned.

The Minister is always setting up committees and fact-finding bodies. Why does he not take action? We all know the facts. Is it not time that something was done in view of the dissolution of the Horticultural Marketing Council?

This matter is not related to the dissolution of the Horticultural Marketing Council. It is a question of markets under the control of local authorities throughout the country. With few exceptions, little has been done over the years to modernise these markets. The survey questionnaire which is being issued to all local authorities has the purpose of seeking their ideas about what should be done to modernise the markets, the majority of which, it should not be forgotten, are under the control of local authorities.

Whilst we recognise that markets are out of date, is the Minister not aware that this is only part of the problem? When will there be a major attack on the whole problem of horticulture, including marketing? Why does not the Minister do something?

I do not quite know what major attack the hon. Member has in mind, in which direction it would go, what flank it would turn and how much research it would involve. We all realise the vital importance of horticultural marketing to the horticultural industry as a whole, and we have its needs constantly in mind.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that anxiety in this matter is not confined only to the benches opposite? Has he read, for example, Lord Stonham's lengthy article in the Grower, last week, or the lengthy contribution by the chairman of the Fruit Committee of the National Farmers' Union in Berrow's Worcester Journal Agricultural Supplement, also last week, drawing attention to this one cardinal factor? Is he aware that French, Italian and German investment in horticultural markets has been hugely greater than ours in the last few years, thereby diminishing the competitive position of our growers, notably apple growers in Worcestershire?

I fully realise that the advent of the Common Market did provide a considerable spur for greater investment in horticultural markets on the Continent of Europe.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Question on the Paper, using the word "marketing", deals with a much broader subject than that of provincial markets on which he has just given an Answer, and would he please have a more satisfactory statement to make to the House on Friday next week?

I do not think my hon. Friend would disagree that horticultural markets are a very great part of horticultural marketing.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what measures the Lord President has advised Her Majesty's Government to take to reduce unemployment in, and check migration from, south-west and west Durham since his appointment.

My noble Friend cannot disclose the advice he may tender to his colleagues. The measures on which the Government decide in the light of my noble Friend's advice will normally be announced by the Departmental Ministers responsible for implementing them.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary's noble Friend, and for that matter the Parliamentary Secretary himself, know where south-west Durham is? Will he take note of the fact that Aycliffe is not south-west Durham and that a great many things need to be done much further west in south-west Durham?

I fully accept that fact that south and south-west Durham includes more than the locality to which the hon. Member referred.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what account he takes of the operation of the Local Employment Act in considering the special problems of the North-East.

My noble Friend attaches great importance to the Act and its operation in considering these problems.

How is it that in 1960 nothing more was required to deal with local unemployment than the Local Employment Act, when at that particular time unemployment in my constituency was 1,600? Is the Minister aware that, thanks to the success of the Act, it is now 5,000? What is he proposing to do about it? Is he proposing to extend the Act or to alter it?

As I said in answer to the previous Question, any proposals which were made and which involved amending legislation would naturally be announced, if they were to be announced, by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what steps the Lord President of the Council is taking to assess the cost of providing an international airport to serve Tees-side in relation to the cost of implementing the Local Employment Act on Tees-side.

My noble Friend is considering the adequacy of the existing airport facilities and air services for the needs of the region. I am not sure that I understand the latter part of the Question; the desirability or otherwise of an airport is not an alternative to designation as a development district, nor can the cost of the latter course be assessed, since it would depend on the number of assisted projects there.

I am very grateful to hear that the Lord President of the Council is considering this matter, but is it not the case that while short-term remedial measures under the Local Employment Act are desirable, whatever their cost may be, it is important that we should improve the long-term infrastructure of the area? Therefore, would not giving this international airport priority and making finance available make a direct contribution towards solving this problem?

When my noble Friend was in the North-East representations were made to him both as to the lack of an airport to serve Tees-side and also the inadequacy of the services to the Continent from the existing airports. These he will naturally consider. My noble Friend is fully seized of the importance of adequate communications of all types as part of the infrastructure of growth in the North-East.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what steps are being taken to assess the relative advantages of providing improved rail services in the North-East area and of providing advance factories for permanent employment in isolated communities.

My noble Friend attaches great importance to the provision of good communications of all types within the North-Eastern area, and accepts the value of the provision of advance factories in suitable places, but he regards these policies as complementary and not as alternatives and cannot therefore assess their relative advantages.

It is good to hear they are regarded as complementary; it is very much the case. But surely the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that it is very foolish at a time when we want to improve communications in the area and when the arrival of new industries in the area is dependent upon these there should be proposals to close down railway lines, when the main purpose of the present time should be to improve rail communications, especially in the growth areas? Will the Parliamentary Secretary give an undertaking that a proper survey will be carried out to show the future needs for railways and that decisions about closing them down will not be simply based upon present traffic which is available for them?

Of course, British Railways' comprehensive proposals for reshaping the railway system will not be available for some time yet and, therefore, the Government do not know what further closures may be proposed. I can, however, tell the hon. Member that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has set up an inter-Departmental Working Party to study the impact of these proposals when it receives them.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council if he will make a further statement about the visit of the Lord President of the Council to Middlesbrough.

When my noble Friend visited Middlesbrough recently, he was given a very clear and helpful picture of local problems by representatives of the corporation. This was part of a series of fact-gathering tours in the North-East, and there is no special statement to make about it at this stage.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary convey to his noble Friend that the cause of unemployment in the North-East is Government policy and that his reported criticism of local leadership is very much resented?

I could not possibly accept the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he has given further consideration to the inquiry into the affairs of the British Overseas Airways Corporation; and whether he is satisfied that the scope and nature of the inquiry is adequate to deal with the problems involved.

Yes, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend really telling the House that he thinks it is desirable to have an inquiry of this nature by only one accountant for a corporation having capital of hundreds of millions and having worldwide ramifications? Does he really believe that this report, which must inevitably involve the highest level of management, will really command confidence?

I have told Mr. Corbett that he is free to call in outside experts to help him whenever he wishes. I understand that he has done so on a number of occasions. I prefer to leave Mr. Corbett to write his report in any way he thinks fit, having taken all the advice which he himself thinks necessary.

Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman during the debate said that this report was to be to him? Am I correct in assuming he is going to bring it to Parliament before he takes any further steps?

I am awaiting first of all Mr. Corbett's report, which is to be a report to me, and I will then, of course, tell the House about—and no doubt discuss with the House—any steps I may take beyond that.

asked the Minister of Aviation when he expects to place an order for a tactical freighter aircraft to meet the requirement numbered O.R. 351.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now announce particulars of the plans to replace Beverley and Hastings aircraft.

I expect to make a statement shortly.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern felt in the aircraft manufacturing industry at the great delay in the project, particularly as over the past weekend alone at Short Bros. and Harland in my constituency more than 200 design staff are being laid off? There is great fear that, if these design men go abroad, this would break up a balanced design and construction unit which is a very valuable part of the industry.

I am well aware of the anxiety which is felt in the industry about this whole question, and I hope that it will not be more than a few days now before I give my answer.

Will my right hon. Friend explain that the delay is over the placing of the order for this requirement and is not a matter of considering whether the project should go on or not?

I think it would be better if I did not try to anticipate the statement I am going to make, but I am in broad sympathy with what my hon. Friend has said.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have been expecting a decision shortly for about four years, and that in that process any replacement becomes obsolete before it even gets on to the drawing board?

No. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman is for once on the wrong leg. [Interruption.] I am not saying we are postponing a decision but that the need for a replacement is a proper criterion to adopt. There will be a time by which the Beverley and Hastings aircraft must be replaced. It has not been necessary until now to arrive at a decision, and indeed it has been wise not to have anticipated that decision. In taking the decision we have, of course, to evaluate all the different aspects of this problem and to produce the very best possible replacement. This is the time to do it.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether it has now been decided to establish an airport on Tees-side.

There are difficult problems of air traffic control is trying to meet the R.A.F. requirements at Middleton St. George and at the same time providing for civil airlines' scheduled services. Scheduled is a word which I would underline. I am, however, examining with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air whether it would be practicable to extend the present facilities for civil aircraft at this particular airfield.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether it is possible for him to give further consideration to transferring the whole of the R.A.F. station over to civil purposes?

I will certainly draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. It is a rather difficult problem.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this question has been asked on several occasions during the past ten years and that we have always had the reply that there are difficulties and obstacles in the way—for example, difficulties about Customs—and now there are said to be difficulties on various grounds? Is it not about time that Tees-side was provided with an adequate air service? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have no adequate air service on the North-East Coast at all, even at Wolsingham in Northumberland?

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is a very difficult question. I remember that about a year ago the Minister of Aviation asked a Question of the Secretary of State for Air on the subject, and the Secretary of State for Air returned an answer which I am not sure the present Minister of Aviation would very much like.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware of the concern and uncertainty which now pre- vails among employees in the aircraft industry; and whether he will make a statement as to future prospects and the size of the labour force.

I am in close touch with both sides of the industry and am, of course, aware of their views. Some of the concern that has been expressed is, I think, exaggerated. It is true that the labour force has fallen somewhat during the last year, but it is still larger than three years ago. Government expenditure in the industry is likely to remain high and I am confident about the future prospects of the industry although, of course, these must depend to a substantial extent on its success in gaining export orders.

While we are pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman's optimism, might I ask him whether he would agree that we are now in a difficult period in which such issues as the decision on Skybolt as against Polaris and the whole question of the V-bomber force itself are causing great apprehension? Will he at the earliest possible moment give us a more considered and detailed statement, which would probably help people on both sides of industry?

I will certainly do my best. Meanwhile, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall that at least we have during the last six months placed military orders for the VC10 and project studies for the P.1154 and have had the Concord project accepted, and there has been a good deal of forward movement across the board.

The right hon. Gentleman attributed some of the difficulties to the lack of export orders. Could he tell us what his Department does in helping, for example, the sales of the Trident against the Boeing 727?

It is Government policy to assist export orders in every way we can, and the officials at our embassies abroad, on the commercial side and on the air side, do their best to help. We have had some quite favourable comments from the industry recently on the contribution that we have made.

Could the right hon. Gentleman use this occasion to say anything about Blue Steel? We are all wondering what the Government's attitude to it is. It concerns this Question very much in relation to employment on the project.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to table a Question about that, and I will do my best to answer it.

asked the Minister of of Aviation if he will inquire into the causes of unrest and discontent which presently exist among the civil air traffic control officers in the employment of his Department, with a view to remedying them.

No, Sir. I see no reason to institute a special inquiry. Facilities for consultation already exist in the Departmental Whitley machinery.

A few minutes ago the Minister of Aviation referred to the air traffic control difficulties in establishing an airport on Tees-side. Does he realise that those difficulties arise from the fact that, owing to this discontent, only 800 officers are now employed on the control side as against the minimum of 1,000 required if safety regulations and the demands of traffic are adequately to be met?

I am certainly not unaware of the feelings of these people, but I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that in broad principle it would be better to use the existing machinery to express feelings of that sort.

Leaving the machinery aside, is my hon. Friend satisfied, in view of the tremendous responsibility carried by the men with their remuneration and general conditions of work compared with other leading countries? Will he look into this?

A pay claim by the air traffic control officers was recently decided by the Civil Service arbitration tribunal. The tribunal awarded an increase in pay averaging 6 per cent. and the award has now been implemented. But I will certainly look into what my hon. Friend says.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will seek powers to protect passengers on chartered civil flights who have paid their fares from the failure of airline companies to convey them to their destination.

No, Sir. This is a matter of contract between the passenger and the airline or travel agent. But before granting a licence, the Air Transport Licensing Board is required to take account of the fitness of an operator to perform the service for which he has applied.

Would not the Minister even condemn this iniquitous practice whereby people pay the fare for a flight to New York over a period of nine to twelve months in order to meet relatives they have not seen for a long time and can then he told only a few weeks before the aircraft is due to leave that there is no room for them in the plane and they are discarded? Is not that a practice about which the Government should be concerned, and should not the Ministry of Aviation do something to protect our people against extortion on the part of American companies?

I have great sympathy for cases like that, but it is open to any aggrieved passenger to make a representation to the Air Transport Licensing Board under Section 4 of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960, and the Board then considers the case and reports to my right hon. Friend. But the hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that a great number of the people going on trips of this sort have a contractual relationship with the organisers of tours or charters and not a contractual relationship with the airlines.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that by the time the mechanics have been gone into the flight has gone and returned and these people are still waiting? Cannot we do something to help our own citizens in such a situation? Ought not the Minister to have some authority to ensure that our citizens receive fair play at the hands of these companies in respect of charter flights?

I have a great deal of sympathy for these people, but I would also point out that they must take the necessary action themselves.

asked the Minister of Aviation what orders have now been placed for the P.1127 and P.1154 aircraft respectively.

Orders have been placed for 15 P.1127 aircraft. These are for our own research and development purposes and for the programme we are jointly undertaking with the Federal Republic of Germany and the United States of America. This joint programme is designed to obtain logistic and operational experience in the V.T.O.L. field. A contract for a project study has been placed for the P.1154 aircraft. This aircraft is intended as a Hunter and possibly a Sea Vixen replacement.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a number of countries which could afford to buy the P.1127 are unable to spend the vast sums required to buy the P.1154? Does he not think it would be a good thing to have more of the simpler types in the Royal Air Force to be used as shop windows for the export business? Would he take into account that in the P.1154 Britain has a great lead on every other country in the world and that the longer this matter is delayed, the sooner the Americans and the Germans will catch up with us, and they are cashing in on our knowledge of the P.1127? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that a decision is taken, and taken quickly?

I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no hold-up of any sort with regard to the P.1154. We are pressing on with this as fast as we can, but until the project study is completed, we cannot take a decision about the next phase. The question of more P.1127s for the Royal Air Force is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps he takes to ensure that no hardship is suffered by recipients of National Insurance benefits as a result of the loss in the post of documents sent from offices of his Department.

I understand that the hon. Member is referring to lost postal drafts. Lost drafts may be replaced without delay if it appears that delay would cause hardship. Otherwise lengthier inquiries are made before replacement. If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind, perhaps he will let me have details and I will gladly look into it.

Since a week's delay in these payments can cause real hardship at times of sickness, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that sufficient publicity is given of the steps a recipient can take if an order does not turn up in the post on time? I understand that as much as seven weeks is needed for a full investigation. Is he satisfied that such a long time is necessary to clear up the matter?

I will look into the question of publicity for steps which may be taken, although I would have thought it obvious that any person who has lost a postal draft should go along to his local National Insurance office. Considering the vast number of postal drafts sent out yearly—about 35 million—it is obvious that some considerable time is necessary in order to sort them out and make sure that a draft has not already been paid. The hon. Gentleman would be surprised by the number of times drafts are found after being reported lost. For instance, many are found to have been cashed by a member of the recipient's household.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will ensure that National Assistance benefit is paid to Mr. K. Rosser, 46 Denham House, W.12, from 21st August to 1st December, 1962.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the National Assistance Board. I understand that the Chairman of the Board is writing to the hon. Member.

Is the Minister aware that Mr. Rosser is a blind person and that his benefit was abruptly cut off on 25th August, apparently because he did not wish to train as an audio-typist at a centre outside London, to which the Ministry wished to send him? Mr. Rosser said that he preferred to train in London and he was subsequently granted a training position there which will become available next Whitsun. In these circumstances, he is surely entitled to benefit from 25th August to 1st December, during which period he maintained himself from his own resources. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there was no reason why the Board should have withheld benefit, since Mr. Rosser volunteered to be trained but wished to be trained near his home? A place is now available in London. Should not the Board now pay this benefit?

This is a matter for the National Assistance Board. It does not make retrospective payments but payments for current needs. If it had thought that in Mr. Rosser's case there was need it would have made a payment, but he was living at home and was not taking any course at the time to train himself to become independent.

asked the Minister of Health what is the total number of babies now known to have been born in England and Wales with deformities attributable to the use of thalidomide during the pregnancy of their mothers; how many of these have been born since the end of August, 1962; what steps were taken to warn the mothers individually of the dangers involved in the use of this drug and to recover supplies of it from their homes; what progress is being made in the establishment of clinics for the training of the babies in the use of artificial limbs and other physical aids; and what assistance is provided to enable mothers living at some distance from such clinics to take their babies to them regularly.

Maximum 349, of whom 267 surviving; seven, of whom six surviving; I am sending the hon. Member details of the steps; at all limb-fitting centres, and special arm training at six centres and three special units; ambulance services are available where necessary.

Does that figure of seven born since the end of August indicate, as has been stated, that these mothers must have continued to take the drug after its dangers were known and its use generally had been stopped? If so, why were they not warned individually?

These must be cases where the drug was taken—if that was the cause, which is not certain—these are cases where the drug may have been taken—that is why I used the word "maximum" in my answer—and where, therefore, the necessary knowledge had not come to the attention of the person concerned.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make available a list of places where the service is available? Is he aware that in Liverpool, where there are quite a number of deformed children, there is a limb-fitting centre which should be used instead of the mothers having to go a long distance and wait a long time for their children to be trained? Will the Minister let us have that list and also look at other places which could be used for this service?

Limb fitting for these children takes place at all limb-fitting centres, but training in the use of arms is at the moment limited to a certain number of centres. I will gladly send the hon. Lady a list of them.

Will my right hon. Friend help to clear up the confusion which exists in my mind, and which is fairly widespread, as to the measure of responsibility which his Department takes with regard to the use of drugs? To what extent is it responsible for warning people against dangerous drugs and for saying that drugs are not dangerous?

The responsibility for prescribing lies, in the individual case, with the doctor, but in this instance my Department took all measures which were practicably open to it to bring the relevant information to public notice as well as to the attention of the medical profession.

Is this drug still available? If so, what special conditions are attached to its issue? Is there any special restriction upon its issue in prescription form, for instance?

I believe that at the moment it is not available, but I would rather answer that as a formal question.

asked the Minister of Health if he will now negotiate with the medical profession to ensure that certificates for vaccinations and inoculations needed for people spending holidays abroad shall be issued free from payment.

No, Sir.

Is it not anomalous that in a free service patients should have to pay for certificates? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that charges range from 10s. 6d. to 5 guineas and that there is no set fee? Is it not ridiculous that at this stage of the National Health Service one has to pay for a certificate in order to travel?

Vaccination is provided free because it is the general practitioner's obligation, under his terms of reference, to provide proper and necessary treatment. But we see no case for the provision, as part of the general medical services, of certificates for people who may need them in order to travel abroad.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he now proposes to take to ensure that a locum is provided when needed, as in the case of a general practitioner's sudden illness.

This is the contractual responsibility of the general practitioner.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that this can cause great hardship to a single-handed practitioner? Will he not further agree that it places a heavy burden on the practitioner's wife, who is worried not only about her husband's illness but also about the possibility of finding a suitable locum and whether the locum will remain throughout her husband's illness? Does not he agree that in these cases responsibility should be taken by the executive councils?

No, Sir. There may be particular cases, and if my hon. Friend will let me have details I will look into them. However, this is a matter for the profession itself, and existing agencies are available to assist practitioners in finding locums, notably the B.M.A. Bureau.

Would not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that this is a problem to which the happiest solution, where practicable, is the establishment of group practices?

There may be something in what the hon. Members says.