asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement on the progress made towards the establishment of a Malaysian Federation.

The Intergovernmental Committee has finished its task of working out detailed arrangements and guarantees for North Borneo and Sarawak. Its report is being considered by the four Governments concerned. The Governments of Malaya and Singapore have set up a similar committee. Discussions are proceeding between the Governments of Malaya and Brunei following the Sultan's announcement on the 7th of this month that Brunei had decided in principle to join Malaysia.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that while most of us on this side of the House believe that the Federation represents the best possible answer to the problems of the territories concerned, we are disturbed at certain recent developments, in particular the hostility of the Governments of the Philippines and Indonesia to the Malaysia project? It seems to create a real threat to peace, at least in Borneo. Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether Her Majesty's Government intend to accept the offer made by the Secretary-General of the United Nations to intervene in the matter, an offer which, I gather, has been favourably received by the Tunku of Malaya? Secondly, is the lion. Gentleman satisfied that the decision in principle of the Sultan of Brunei to join the Federation represents the views of the people of Brunei, and if not, what steps are to be taken to obtain their support for it?

As regards the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, that, of course, is really a matter for the Tunku to decide. As regards the second part, I am told that the Brunei revolt has hardened local opinion in North Borneo and Sarawak where it must be remembered that the elected representatives voted in favour of Malaysia. Brunei is only a protectorate, and it is up to the Sultan to decide whether Brunei joins.

With respect, the hon. Gentleman has not answered any of the questions I asked. Surely Her Majesty's Government are now responsible for the territories of Singapore, Sarawak, North Borneo and Brunei, and, therefore, have a perfect right, and a duty if they think it wise, to accept the offer of mediation made by the Secretary-General of the United Nations? Secondly, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the Sultan of Brunei's decision to accede represents the will of the people of Brunei, because, if not, does he not think that we are storing up trouble for ourselves in the future?

I believe that the interests of the people of Brunei would be far better served by joining with Malaysia, and I think it will be shown in the discussions that the people will back that. As regards the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, it is rather a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs than for me.

Does the hon. Gentleman think that it helps to create the right atmosphere for popular support of the Malaysian Federation to arrest the leading members of the Opposition political party in Singapore and detain them in prison indefinitely without trial or right of appeal? Will Her Majesty's Government advise the head of State in Singapore to release the overwhelming majority of these men immediately?

Again, I think that it must be remembered that 71 per cent. of those who voted, and voted very recently, in Singapore favoured the merger. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question about Singapore to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that while he may think it is best for Brunei to be part of this Federation, and that may be so, his judgment nevertheless is not the decisive factor and it must in the end depend on the will of the people of Brunei? Would it be possible to suspend the question of including Brunei for the time being and to get on with the rest of the Federation?

Perhaps the hon. Member will put down that Question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what proportion of the funds allocated to the Overseas Students' Welfare Expansion programme has now been taken up by approved hostel projects; and what steps he is taking to increase the speed of expansion.

Under projects approved up to the present 1,601 new beds—that is, just under one-third of the target—will be provided at an expenditure of just over one-quarter of the funds. Proposals are now under consideration by the Government and the British Council which it is hoped will accelerate the rate of progress of the scheme.

Is not this a very unsatisfactory and slow rate of progress on an urgent and very important scheme? Could the Minister now assure the House that, in the light of the experience they have had of the slowness, the Government are considering arrangements with a view to taking up quickly the whole of the funds that were allocated?

The hon. Member must bear in mind that voluntary organisations come into this matter and that it is a fairly new scheme, but we are endeavouring to speed it up more in all the details of the arrangements.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many members of his Department, serving in Commonwealth countries in Africa, speak an African language.

Sixteen Sir, though the degree of individual fluency naturally varies.

Does my hon. Friend think this figure really adequate to run efficient High Commissions in view of the very large size of the vernacular Press and the increasing use of African in ceremonial and formal speeches?

This question has arisen only comparatively recently and action has been taken to improve incentives for people to learn languages.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what incentives are offered to encourage members of his Department to learn additional languages when serving in Commonwealth countries the majority of whose population does not speak English.

Tuition fees are paid for officers learning specified local languages. A scheme for language proficiency allowances is now being worked out.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply and being delighted to hear that progress is being made, may I ask if he does not think it time that concrete steps were taken, since India joined the Commonwealth so long ago and more than half the population of the Commonwealth now do not speak English?

I believe that action is being taken.

Is it not an extraordinary confession by the hon. Gentleman that action is only now being considered although India has been independent for 15 years and African countries have been independent for nearly 10 years and the Foreign Office has had a scheme on these lines for the last 50 years which the Commonwealth Relations Office might well have copied and taken over just as it stands?

We have a hard language training scheme which was started last year, and we manage to send officers for language courses to academic institutions in this country, such as the School of Oriental and African studies. I agree with the hon. Member that it is time action was taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will now offer an indissoluble union to New Zealand on the Northern Ireland model.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I tabled this and the next Question to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister because I believed that they were worthy of consideration by the Head of the Government? Would he agree that, as we were once able to offer an "indissoluble union" to France, it would be even more appropriate now that science is annihilating distance to offer one to our kinsmen and fellow subjects in New Zealand?

As regards the first part of the supplementary question, "Yes" As regards the second part, I am glad of the opportunity to express the British Government's warm affection for New Zealand, but it would out of the question for us to take any such initiative without a request from New Zealand.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will seek the concurrence of the other countries of the Commonwealth in an invitation to the kingdoms of Norway and Denmark and to the Republic of Eire to join the Commonwealth of Nations.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that among the 15 other sovereign States in the Commonwealth there is already one monarchy which has accepted Her Majesty as Head of the Commonwealth without any derogation from the Royal dignity? Is not this a precedent which is pregnant with possibilities?

I was for some years a member of the Expanding Commonwealth Group on this side of the House. There are many difficulties over this question and it would be a matter not only for this country but for all Commonwealth Governments.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what requests Her Majesty's Government has received from other Commonwealth Governments regarding assistance for African students recently expelled from Bulgaria.

The Nigerian Government have today authorised our Legation in Sofia to repatriate four Nigerian students who are still in Bulgaria and wish to leave. No other official requests for assistance have been received from Commonwealth Governments.

Whilst welcoming that information, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that many of us on both sides of the House will feel that these events throw a significant light on the claim of the Communist countries to be the best friends of the Afro-Asian peoples and to have abolished racial discrimination?

Yes, Sir. It appears from the available information that the trouble arose because the Bulgarian authorities wanted to impose their own nominee as president of the students' association and students who have grown up in territories which have been under British administration do not expect such treatment.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what representations he has received from the Governments of India and Pakistan for the transference or disposal of the library formerly in the possession of the India Office; and if Her Majesty's Government will transfer that library or part thereof to one or both of those governments.

Discussions with the Governments of India and Pakistan on the future of the India Office Library have been in progress since 1959, but have not yet been concluded. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.

If it does not arise, may I ask whether, in view of the fact that many properties have been transferred from the ownership of the British Government to one of these Governments in the past and this has been very wise and proper, it would be equally beneficial and appreciated if this library were substantially to be transferred by agreement to one or other of these Governments? May we take it that discussions on this matter are proceeding at present?

The Law Officers of the Crown have advised that the library is the property of Her Majesty's Government, but my right hon. Friend believes that in the interests of international scholarship this unique library should not be divided or dispersed. Discussions both with India and Pakistan are continuing.

If these Commonwealth Governments are anxious to have this library, or those parts of it which relate to them, would it not be a very good thing to let them have it, and is it not just as possible for students and scholars to go to New Delhi as to London? If the library contains records and reports from former Governors, district commissioners and so on, would it not be possible to get micro-photographic copies made in London before giving the library to these other Governments?

As I said, discussions are continuing.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, in view of the strain imposed on the resources of the Government of India resulting from the Sino-Indian conflict, what economic or financial assistance, other than for military purposes, Her Majesty's Government has offered or is prepared to offer to the Government of India in the present emergency.

We are now considering further financial assistance to India. We hope to announce our decision after discussion with our fellow-members of the Aid to India Consortium which is expected to meet fairly soon.

May I take it that this means not only military supplies but other forms of assistance, particularly in view of the tremendous strain now imposed on the Indian economy precisely due to the aggressive attack of the Chinese some time ago?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he will now invite the Prime Minister of Trinidad to come to London in order to settle by personal discussion the misunderstandings which have arisen in connection with the financial aid which was offered on independence and was refused by Trinidad.

We are at all times glad to see other Commonwealth Prime Ministers in London. But they are busy people, having much to do in their own countries, and our High Commissioner at Port of Spain is always at Dr. Williams' disposal.

Is not this most unsatisfactory? Does the Answer mean that since Trinidad became independent six months ago there has been no progress in solving these tangled problems of the financial settlement on independence? Does it mean that there have been strained relations between ourselves and a member of the Commonwealth for six months? Are the Government to do nothing positive by way of invitation to get Dr. Williams to accept an invitation to discuss it man to man and get it settled, as we ought to do, inside the Commonwealth?

I believe that these matters are best dealt with through diplomatic channels. I do not agree that relations between the two countries are bad. We have a number of reservations about statements made in the recent White Paper published by the Government of Trinidad and Tobago, but we doubt if it would help relations between the two countries if we were to contribute to a public altercation. If the offer had been accepted, Trinidad would have been able by now to place orders in this country to the value of £1 million.

asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what request he has received from the Government of Ceylon for the assistance of Her Majesty's Government in resolving their dispute with the United States Government arising out of the nationalisation of the property of two American oil companies; and what reply he has made.

None, Sir. The second part of the Question therefore does not arise.

Will the hon. Gentleman offer assistance to the Government of Ceylon? Is he aware that the United States Government are demanding 100 per cent. compensation for Esso and Caltex, the American oil companies involved, and in the meantime they cut off the whole of American aid to Ceylon? Are the Government content to see a member of the British Commonwealth treated like Cuba?

We would, of course, be prepared to consider any approach made to us. The action of the United States Government is in no way concerned with the negotiations at present in progress between the Shell Oil Company and the Ceylon Government over compensation for the sequestration of Shell property. The British Government have at various times made clear to the Ceylon Government the importance they attach to the Shell Oil Company receiving prompt, adequate and effective compensation.

asked the Minister of Education if he will undertake an investigation into the value of teaching machines for routine factual teaching by encouraging a number of pilot schemes to enable an assessment to be made both of their educational and economic practicability.

I am already financing two research projects concerned with programmed learning and teaching machines, and a number of local education authorities are mounting controlled experiments.

I agree that we are only at the beginning of a development the ultimate possibilities of which we cannot perceive, but does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that these machines have a greater potentiality than is justified by the amount of financial support he has given to these propositions up to date? Will he take a vigorous initiative to stimulate the development of these machines, which could facilitate learning and alleviate the situation caused by the acute shortage of teachers? Will he, above all, give encouragement and support to the British efforts in this field?

I agree entirely that this is an important development. I am sure it has come to stay. The research projects are being carried out at the moment under the auspices of Sheffield and Leicester Universities, and I am at present considering an application for a grant towards a third project at Birmingham University. I hope shortly to circulate to education authorities and others a summary of the returns that I received at the end of last year about the use they were making, or planning to make, of programmed learning and teaching machines, with a statement of my own views and those of my Ministry. I will send the hon. Member a copy when I do so.

In order to speed up this research, which is very important, has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility of buying various prototype machines and lending them to education authorities so that they could carry out many more controlled experiments than are now being undertaken?

I will certainly consider what the hon. Lady suggests. My own feeling is that the need at present may be less for more formal research, or for not much more formal research, than for wholesale experiment. From that would come the hypothesis needed as a basis for research. I will certainly consider what the hon. Lady has suggested.

asked the Minister of Education if he is satisfied that the revised programme for training college expansion will ensure that all suitable candidates applying for admission to training colleges for September, 1963, will be found places; and if he will make a statement.

There are considerably more applicants, both men and women, this year than last; but, for the reasons given in the reply to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Wiley) on 31st January, I expect the number to be admitted to be well above the current year's record figure of about 17,000. We shall not know the full details for some months.

I take it that Answer means "No". Why does not the right hon. Gentleman make flexible emergency arrangements so that students who by 31st August have not got places can get places? Otherwise he is bound to lose several thousand students who will be lost to the teaching profession.

The Answer meant that, quite apart from the long-term plans of the Government for 80,000 students by 1970, I am not neglecting the short-term situation. I asked the colleges to make an immediate start by taking in even more students this September than they have planned to do. In addition, there will be more permanent new places com- pleted under the expansion programme. I hope that 2,600 new permanent places will result. Finally, there are the new temporary day units intended mainly for girls coming straight from school. So far I have approved nine of these. Two of them, in London and Cardiff, are already open, and the rest will come into use later this year. One in Lancashire is planning to take students both in May and September. I can assure the hon. Member that, apart from the big longterm plans of the Government, I certainly am not neglecting the short-term aspect of this very important subject.

Will my right hon. Friend pay particular attention to what he has said about day students, who seem most likely to provide the increased numbers at the least cost to the Exchequer in maintenance and other respects?

Certainly. When I announced the most recent slice of the expansion programme I said that we would be thinking mainly in terms of day students.

As the new bulge is going into the primary schools for the second year this autumn, does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that if once again several thousands of fully qualified young people anxious to become teachers are prevented because he has not taken sufficient action, this will be disastrous?

Of course, I am aware of the importance of this subject. The hon. Gentleman talks about not taking sufficient action, but two or three years ago very few of us would have imagined that by last winter we could have got 48,000 students into the training colleges. The training colleges have done an extremely fine job. The Government are certainly not ignoring this subject. I regard a build-up from 28,000 to 80,000 students in colleges over 12 years as a pretty big undertaking, a fair sign that we attach priority to this matter. I have already given instances of the sort of measures we are taking to cope with the short-term aspect of this as well as the long-term aspect.

asked the Minister of Education if lie will ask the Central Advisory Council for Education to investigate the number of nursery schools required to meet the nation's requirements and to make recommendations as to the steps necessary to achieve a satisfactory nursery school system.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary gave to the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hilton) on 14th February last. The inquiry into primary education which I am considering would include nursery education.

I take it again that that Answer means "No". Has the Minister seen the statement made by Sir Ronald Gould that a certain number of married women teachers cannot get jobs in some parts of the country? Therefore, would he not consider opening more nursery schools so as to pull in this type of teacher and also open more nursery schools in places where there is a particular need for them?

If the hon. Gentleman will look again at his Question and at my Answer, he will find that I answered quite fairly the precise Question I was asked. I do not think that it is unreasonable to take the line that the needs of children of compulsory school age should come first, but the recent increase in part-time students, which I support, has in fact enabled more children to enjoy the benefit of nursery education.

asked the Minister of Education if he will authorise an increase in the Cardiff school-building programme for 1964–65 in order to ensure that a new county secondary school for Splott, Cardiff, is included.

A project for a new seven form-entry secondary school, to replace the existing boys' and girls' schools at Splott, has been included in the 1964–65 major schools building programme, at a total estimated cost of £325,794. The authority was officially informed to this effect on 12th February.

May I thank the Minister for that reply, which will remove the great feelings of disappointment that have been felt in this area about the failure to do it much earlier?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those remarks. I am told that the authority has two sites in mind for the new school. It is proposed to put the buildings on one site and devote the other to playing fields. I hope that now that this has been approved by the Government it will be possible to proceed with planning with all speed.

I echo the satisfaction expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South East (Mr. Callaghan) about Splott, but is the Minister aware of the bitter indignation in the Llandaff area of Cardiff at the fact that he has overlooked the need of the Llandaff Church School? Will he look again at the programme and see that a better deal is given there?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would table a Question about that school or write to me about it.

asked the Minister of Education how many schools in the constituency of West Gloucester have no flush toilets; in which parishes these are situated; and if he will make a statement.

Eight, in the parishes of Longhope, Sandhurst, Norton, Tirley, Bromesberrow, Down Hatherley, St. Briavels, and Staunton. Tenders have been accepted or are being invited for the provision of water borne sanitation at three of these schools. The managers of three more are preparing schemes for its provision.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is a bit of a disgrace that in 1963 children attending school should have as their sole sanitary arrangements Elsan buckets? Does he not consider that instead of being complacent and saying that three tenders have been submitted, he should get on with the job and deal with this matter, not only in my constituency but in all the rural areas?

The hon. Member still carries on the rather curmudgeonly methods of discussion I recall during my term as Financial Secretary. The position is not as bad as some people might think. At Tirley, earth closets have recently been replaced by chemical closets and I am told that there would be technical difficulties in providing waterborne sanitation. My Answer shows that progress is being made.

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the number of schools now used in the constituency of West Gloucestershire and the dates when they were erected.

There are 85 schools in West Gloucestershire. Of the original buildings 37 were erected before 1875, 28 between 1875 and 1902, nine between 1903 and 1918, five between 1919 and 1944, and six since 1944. Most of them have had recent additions and improvements.

The right hon. Gentleman would have some difficulty describing my method of discussion on this topic. Would he not agree that it is scandalous that some of the schools which have been in my constituency for a hundred years have not yet been pulled down and replaced? Does he not think that it is about time that he quickly got on with the job?

I hope that the hon. Member has taken note of the last sentence of my Answer, which said that most of the 85 schools have had recent additions and improvements. I hope that the hon. Member will also remember that, quite apart from the fabric of schools, the quality of the teaching is also of great importance. The Government have deliberately given first priority to expanding the supply of teachers in the primary schools.

Can my right hon. Friend give the date when Eton was built?

It dates from 1440, but I will admit that Eton has had some recent improvements and additions also.

Will the Minister agree that the inquiries of the National Union of Teachers revealed that these conditions are not peculiar to Gloucestershire, but are general? Will he tell the House when he intends to publish the survey his Department has conducted and announce when the school building programme will give priority to bringing the primary schools up to the standard laid down in the building regulations?

There are three parts to that supplementary question. Firstly, I agree, and I have said, that the National Union of Teachers' survey was a valuable document, but I think that it is fair to say that in its dating of schools it ignored the question of how many Victorian schools have had improvements and additions made to them in this century. Regarding the Ministry's inquiry, I cannot give a date now, but I have said that, as soon as we have fed all the information into the machine and have got the results, I will certainly publish the information in a convenient form. On the third point—the 1965–66 building programme—I hope that the hon. Member will not press me on that too far before we have reached final conclusions on the size of the programme for 1964–65.

I accept that some schools have had additions and improvements, but would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to come with me round the schools in my constituency to see how shocking some of them are?

If the Gloucestershire authority invited me for a visit, and if I could fit it in, I would certainly consider doing so. I do not dispute that many old schools are in need of substantial improvement, but I think that my reply to the hon. Member earlier concerned the kind of thing that can be done by minor works.

asked the Minister of Education how he proposes to provide adequate school facilities for children living on the Woodhouse Estate, Urmston; and when this will be done.

It is for the local education authority in the first instance to consider whether more school places are required in the area. I understand that all the children from the Woodhouse Estate can be accommodated in existing schools which are within the statutory walking distance of two miles for pupils under eight years of age.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these schools are one-and-a-half miles away from this estate and that that involves journeys over heavily trafficked roads? Is he also aware that there are 347 children under 5 years of age on the estate and that the birthrate is rising? Will he, therefore, consider at an early date making arrangements to provide an infants school on the estate and, until such time as a school is provided, arrange for adequate transport to be made available with adequate supervision?

I know the concern felt about this matter in the area. I have looked into this case carefully but it sometimes happens that children living on new estates must attend older schools until such time as a new school can he fitted into the school building programme. We must give priority to the provision of new schools in places where there are no schools and where children might otherwise be out of school altogether. I am told that the authority concerned is watching the situation closely and is looking for a site for a new school to serve the Woodhouse Estate when numbers justify it.

asked the Minister of Education how many condemned or obsolete school buildings in Staffordshire have been replaced in the last five years; how many remain to be replaced; and how many replacements are included in next year's building programme.

I understand from the local education authority that 36 schools were rehoused or replaced in the five years 1958 to 1962, and that 122 remain for replacement. Four replacement projects are included in the 1963–64 building programme.

Does not the Minister think that it is shameful that over 100 schools have been declared obsolete in Staffordshire—many of them, as in my constituency, having been declared obsolete for 27 years or more—and are in need of replacement? Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the immediate need to enlarge Staffordshire's school building programme?

I do not think that the record of 36 schools replaced in five years is too bad. Regarding the 1964 school building programme for Staffordshire, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary told the hon. Member last week that it consists of more than £1¼ million worth of school building for the growing population. I appreciate the hon. Member's concern but whether one considers the share of the total building programme or replacements, I do not think that Staffordshire comes off too badly.

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the percentage proportion of places available in grammar schools in Cardiff; and the comparable percentages for 1935 and 1945.

In January, 1962, 23·6 per cent. of all pupils aged 13 in maintained schools in the City of Cardiff attended grammar schools. If direct grant schools are included, the percentage is 25·2. Similar figures for 1935 and 1945 are not available.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is fortunate in those figures not being available, because they would reveal to him that it is much more difficult for a child in 1963 to get a grammar school place in Cardiff than it was in 1945 or 1935, on both of which dates I happened to be teaching in the city? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me what steps he is taking to give the youngsters of 1963 an opportunity equal to that given to those of the last generation?

I can tell the hon. Member that the figures for 1962 were better than those for 1961. The figure I quoted, of 23·6 per cent. for 1962, compares with 21·8 per cent. for 1961. Of course, I know the very splendid concern felt in Wales for grammar school education, but I think that 23 to 25 per cent. is not an unreasonable figure of places, although I am ready to receive representations by letter from the hon. Member if he cares to make them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Wales is dissatisfied with the proportion of 23 to 25 per cent.? We believe that a larger portion of children are capable of benefiting from this type of education and that the Cardiff average is one of the lowest in Wales.

I deliberately phrased my answer as moderately as I could because I have always admired the Welsh concern for selective education—[Hors. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—grammar school education; I should not use tendentious words. Since I have been back at the Ministry I have on more than one occasion expressed the view that over the years it is a good thing if the percentage of those receiving the grammar school type of education rises. The point I was making is that the trend in Cardiff has been upwards in recent years. As I said, I will be ready to hear what the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) has to say about this.

asked the Minister of Education what was the total value of the building projects which local authorities most recently submitted to him for the yearly building programme; and what proportion in value of these projects he approved.

For 1964–65 local education authorities submitted proposals for the school, further education and special school building programmes totalling about £240 million. As to the second part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) on I2th February last.

Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to continue granting only a comparatively small proportion of the projects submitted by local authorities? Does he take the view of his predecessor that local authorities are submitting grossly inflated programmes? Would he not agree that he should go to the Cabinet and ask for a much larger building programme?

I think that I can best put it this way. Some local education authorities would be surprised, and a few might be somewhat stunned, if they were to receive everything for which they asked. Experience has shown that it is no good having a large programme of starts with completions being held up. It is worth remembering that last year we had a figure of £66 million worth of work done on school building compared with £49 million the previous year.

May I ask my right hon. Friend if he would be kind enough to give Kent Education Committee all that it has asked for in its minor works programme when it would be in a position to get on with the work forthwith?

As my hon. Friend will see, the Question was concerned primarily with major works. However, since my hon. Friend has been so valiantly pressing for the Kent minor works, I am aware of the logic in what he says.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the programme falls short of the current achievement and that it is not very ambitious? When is he going to adjust the programme in the light of increased building costs? When he talks about resources, is he aware that, for example, in Sunderland we have 2,000 unemployed building trade workers and that the programme has been drastically cut?

It is exactly because of the unemployment position in the northern areas that, following my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's announcement, I decontrolled minor works in those areas where there is 4 per cent. and upwards of unemployment and this is likely to add about £1¾ million to the total minor works output for the year.

asked the Minister of Education if he will give an assurance that the holding of a general inquiry into primary education will not cause delay in the rebuilding of schools whose obsolescence is already well known.

Yes, Sir. I certainly give that assurance. When the results of my Department's survey have been analysed, I shall have all the information I need about the extent of obsolete buildings. The inquiry will be concerned with much more fundamental issues.

Does that encouraging reply mean that if we draw the right hon.

The inquiry will be concerned with fundamental long-term issues about what goes on in the primary schools; that is to say, the aims of primary education and the links with nursery and secondary education over the next 30 years or so. If I may say so, I should be glad to be able to persuade the hon. Gentleman to take an interest in what is going on in the primary schools as well as in the fabric of the schools.

asked the Minister of Education what investigation he has made into the operation of the quota for teachers in areas in which there may be a substantial number of immobile teachers.

I have recently put in hand some inquiries into the working of the quota arrangements for the distribution of teachers. One of my objects is to test the views which I have heard expressed that immobile teachers are not being as fully employed in the schools as they might be.

Can we all agree that the quota is rather a blunt instrument? Will the Minister do everything he can to expedite this inquiry and make certain that we are not wasting any possible available teachers?

I agree entirely. It is highly important that immobile teachers should be employed to the fullest extent in their own localities, both to increase the total number of teachers and also to help more mobile teachers to find their way to the shortage areas.

asked the Minister of Education what is his policy regarding the recommendations relating to schools in the Report on Biological Research, printed in Appendix B of Command Paper No. 1920; whether he accepts the recommendation that the time is now ripe for an investigation of the school curriculum for biology; and what steps he proposes to take to implement that recommendation.

I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the Answer I gave the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) on 24th January.

Is the Minister not yet in a position to say when he intends to accept the recommendations?

As I told the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland, the position is that Her Majesty's Inspectors and the Curriculum Study Group will take note of these recommendations, both generally and in the particular context of the studies of school science and mathematics teaching sponsored by the Nuffield Foundation. I am not in a position to say more than that at the moment, but I am entirely seized of the importance and significance of this matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what was asked for in this very weighty Report was a very thorough investigation of the curriculum, and not just the kind of thing he has described?

I can tell the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) that Her Majesty's Inspectors and the Secondary School Examinations Council are also associated with the work of a committee recently set up under the joint auspices of the Royal Society and the Institute of Biology to review the whole subject of education in biology.

asked the Minister of Education what was the number of junior pupils in maintained and assisted schools in classes of over 40, at the latest available date.

There were 754,736 in January, 1962.

Will the Minister agree that this appalling figure reveals a desperate shortage of teachers? In view of that, how can he explain his recent flatfooted interference with the proceedings of the Burnham Committee? Does he realise that treating the Committee with this flagrant arrogance means treating the profession differently from the way in which he treats other professions?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that this figure of 754,000 compares with 877,000 in January, 1960, so there has been a steady fall in the number since 1953, when the figure was nearly 1·8 million. The hon. Gentleman knows that we have given the highest priority to questions of teacher supply. The second part of his supplementary question is fully answered in the letter I wrote to the chairman of the Burnham Committee yesterday.

asked the Prime Minister (1) if he will initiate discussions with a view to amending Standing Orders so that in ordinary debates no speech made in the House of Commons shall exceed 20 minutes, except that by leave of the House an extension could be made of 10 minutes or 20 minutes on special occasions;

No, Sir. Similar proposals have been made in the past. I am not aware of any general desire to adopt them now.

Does the Prime Minister remember advocating proposals of this kind when he was a smart-looking young Guards officer on this side of the Chamber? That being so, will he reconsider his reply? Will he have regard to the Report prepared by a committee of investigation of this House, and will he also remember that when he visited Australia and New Zealand procedures of this kind were in operation?

There are really two proposals here, one being to limit the length of speeches. Of course, we all feel that to be desirable. However, we do not have to suffer anything like what our predecessors used to undergo in the old days. The other proposal is that we should meet in the mornings. The difficulty in that proposal is, of course, that the Standing Committees sit on Tuesdays and Thursdays, one Standing Committee sits on Wednesday, the House sits on Friday morning, and I am not sure that to sit on Monday morning would be generally acceptable.

Will the Prime Minister reply to my hon. Friend's second proposal? It has the great merit, compared with earlier proposals that we should meet in the mornings, that it would enable hon. Members to perform their duties in Standing Committees and still slip into the Chamber to ask their Questions and get their Answers. It would also give longer time for Questions, and for major debates in the House. The proposal seems to me to have very considerable merits indeed.

I think that it is a matter for the House to consider, but there are very great difficulties, as has been found in previous discussions of Procedure Committees.

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to proceed with reform of the House of Lords before the next General Election.

I think the first step is to arrange a debate in the House of Commons, and no doubt a similar debate will be arranged in the House of Lords.

When the right hon. Gentleman considers Government action in this regard, will he take two points into account? The first is that, consistent with the democratic practice of this country, the time has come to abolish the hereditary principle in another place. Secondly, will he consider the steps necessary to ensure that any noble Lord in another place who seeks to leave that assembly to become a Member of this House, and who may wish to occupy the exalted position the right hon. Gentleman himself now occupies, is provided with the necessary facilities to do so?

I think that all these matters were discussed in some detail in the Joint Committee and will, I imagine, be fully discussed in the debate. I think that far the best thing is to have a debate in this House and in another place, and it will be for the Government to formulate proposals.

While not pursuing the question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) about the Prime Minister's successor, which is a matter of supreme indifference to all of us on this side of the House, could I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will tell us when it is intended to have this debate, and whether the Government will then state quite clearly what view they have formed on this Report? Will he bear in mind that to keep hon. Members of this House who have, through no fault of their own, succeeded to peerages, in a position where they cannot serve their constituencies in this House is quite archaic and out of tune with this modern age, and will he as quickly as possible announce the Government's decision on this matter?

There are three parts to that supplementary question. The right hon. Gentleman says that he is not at all interested in who is to be my successor. I am very glad to hear it. I thought that he had a mild interest.

Will my right hon. Friend say whether he would welcome Members of the House of Lords into this House?

It depends which Lord.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is at present considerable competition on his own side on the need for finding an immediate successor to him? Will he provide facilities for that?

No, Sir. The difficulty about the whole problem raised in these questions is that there appears to be equal anxiety on the part of some people to go to the House of Lords and on the part of others to come back to the House of Commons. But we must find a way through.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether, apart from welcoming Members of the House of Lords in this House, he is anxious to retain some possible future Members of the House of Lords in this House?

All these matters would be much better raised in the debate which, no doubt, will be very interesting. After we have listened to the debates in both Houses, we shall hope to put forward proposals which, we trust, will be passed by both Houses.

asked the Prime Minister whether he received at Nassau an undertaking that, if the British Polaris submarine force was assigned to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, no permissive link or mechanism of any kind would be attached to its warheads which would necessitate United Kingdom dependence upon any United States methods of communication if the Polaris submarines were returned to individual British command from North Atlantic Treaty Organisation command and the British command decided independently to use its nuclear warheads.

No such undertaking was necessary. The warheads will be British and there will be no question of attaching any mechanism to them of the kind described by my noble Friend. In addition, independent communications under British control between the submarines and the Admiralty command will always be available.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that no machinery or mechanism of any sort to which the British Government have not the key will be incorporated in these submarines and related to the warheads before completion?

Of course, because these will be British warheads entirely under the British safety mechanisms which may be thought right. There is no question of this arising. It is completely a red herring. As regards communication, this will always be available directly through the Admiralty.

Will the fuel for powering the submarines, that is, the enriched uranium element, be British or shall we depend upon the United States for it?

I do not wish to go into the details of this, although I should like to refer to them. As the hon. Gentleman knows, our power to make the necessary amount of warheads is quite adequate to all demands.

Is not the Prime Minister aware that, if the system of communication and control of these submarines and weapons is to be entirely British, the cost will be far in excess of anything so far mentioned by the Government in the House? If it is to be entirely British, why is there so little allocation of current resources to this purpose in the latest document on defence?

There is no difficulty about this. There is the ordinary communication system between our own submarines at present.

Since his answers and statement so far have referred to a submarine force, will the Prime Minister tell us what communications he has had from the United States Government about a new proposal that there should be a surface force and not a submarine one?

I understood that that related to the proposal, which will be discussed with other proposals, for a N.A.T.O. force.

asked the Prime Minister what steps he is taking to ensure that adequate communications exist for for consultation between President Kennedy and himself, as well as with Mr. Khrushchev, in emergency; and what other measures he is proposing to reduce the risk of war by accident.

The proposals to reduce the risk of war tabled by the United States delegation to the 18-Nation Disarmament Conference at Geneva included the establishment of direct communications between Governments for us3 in an emergency. President Kennedy and I already have effective means of communicating with each other direct. Other measures included in the proposals concern the exchange of military missions, the advance notification of military movements and manoeuvres, the establishment of fixed ground observation posts, and additional aerial and mobile ground observation arrangements. We welcome and support these proposals, and I hope that we may see progress towards an agreement on them during the present session at Geneva.

Do the proposals include a proposal for the establishment of direct radio-telephonic communications between President Kennedy, Mr. Khrushchev and U Thant? Does the Prime Minister agree that the establishment of such direct communications might well reduce the possibility of nuclear war as the result of accident or misunderstanding?

I think that it was for that reason that the broader proposals include direct emergency communication either by telephone or by teletype. The technical arrangements can easily be made if the general plan is acceptable to the Soviet Government.

Cannot the public be assured that the risk of war by accident is infinitesimal, and is not the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) doing a disservice by frequently raising this unreal bogy?

I think that the risk of war by accident is certainly infinitesimal, but these proposals which include what I have described—informing each other of manœuvres and having military connections and communications between the two sides—will be helpful in reducing at least the risk of those kinds of tension which in the past have sometimes been the preliminary to war.

Are not the scientists who have made these weapons now agreed that the risk of accidental war is by no means infinitesimal? Are the other measures which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned, which have been put forward by the United States, proposed as part of a disarmament treaty or as measures to be taken in advance?

They can be taken either as a whole or separately. What the right hon. Gentleman said in the first part of his supplemenary question is rot my advice.

rose—

We must get on in the interests of other right hon. and hon. Members.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the custom of the House that, if an hon. Member makes an attack upon another who has asked a Question, one has the right to raise the same matter?

The Prime Minister did not answer about that. I am extremely sorry, but we do not get enough Members' Questions answered if we allow multiple supplementaries.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his meeting with representatives of the Scottish Council for Development and Industry and which of its proposals he intends to accept.

I would refer the hon. Lady to the Answers which I gave to similar Questions on Tuesday.

Is the Prime Minister aware that I heard those answers and I read them? Does he realise that there is not in what he said on Tuesday a glimmer of hope for the 150,000 unemployed in Scotland? Will he tell us now on what he bases his claim that the Local Employment Act has been a success, since unemployment is rapidly increasing rather than declining? Is the Prime Minister aware that the people of Scotland and the north-east of England are tired of his gimmicks and Edwardian postures? Since he and his Ministers have neither the will nor the ability to find solutions for these problems, is not the only honourable thing for them to do to resign and allow another Government to take over?

I had a feeling that the hon. Lady was more anxious to make a speech than to ask a supplementary question, and I thought that it would have been discourteous of me to try to curtail her remarks in any way.

Is the Prime Minister aware that one of the proposals which the Scottish Council supports is the elimination of the threat of the imposition of tolls on the new Forth Bridge, since it links two areas which are development districts and it is the only part of the trunk road between Inverness and London which is to be subject to this kind of charge? Why does not the Prime Minister now give an earnest of his desire to solve these problems in Scotland by announcing forthwith the complete elimination of this threat?

I will, of course, consider that, but, as far as I recollect, this matter was not brought to my attention by the deputation.

Since the Prime Minister has tried to ride out of this by a Smart Alec reply, may I ask him to answer the one specific question which I put to him: what is the basis for his claim that the Local Employment Act has been successful in Scotland?

think that the operations under the Local Employment Act have brought new factories and new businesses on a large scale. Let me give some examples. It has been responsible for bringing the motor car industry to Scotland.

Will the Prime Minister now make a statement about what we can expect with regard to two specific proposals, namely, the Mackenzie Committee's recommendation on the coal-fired power station in Scotland and the Rochdale Committee's recommendation on the development of Leith Docks?

I hope shortly. Both of these are under very close examination at the present time.