asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what has been the result of his inquiry into the possibility of using spare capacity in shipyards for the manufacture of house-building components and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will now make a statement on industrialised building, particularly in reference to the use of shipyard facilities in this respect.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made in the study of such building techniques as will permit the use of unused shipbuilding capacity for industrial building purposes.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is yet able to make a statement on the results of his inquiry into the possible use of surplus shipbuilding capacity for prefabricated industrial building.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a further statement on the use of shipyards for work alternative to shipbuilding.

The team which I appointed on 2nd January this year presented its Report to me last Thursday. I am urgently considering the Report and will make a statement shortly.

As a scheme of this kind could both help to reduce the cost and speed up the erection of houses and other buildings while at the same time making a valuable contribution to employment in the North-East and Clydeside, may I ask the Minister whether the Report indicates which types of building components are suitable for this type of production, and has he any idea whether a pilot scheme will be started and where?

I appreciate the potentialities, and that is why the inquiry was set up. I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to try to summarise or deal with parts of the Report until I have had an opportunity to consider it in full.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Report will be published, and whether he has had specific proposals from shipbuilders to help in the development of this kind of work?

I shall certainly consider publication. There are, of course, parts of the Report which include confidential information supplied from shipyards. The inquiry was limited to shipyards in two areas, in the North-East and Scotland. It is, of course, of general application and undoubtedly great interest has been shown in the work of the team.

Is the Minister aware that we consider this a useful and desirable piece of diversification in these areas? Can he tell us whether he has had any discussion with the Scottish Office and the development unit as to the possibility of its application in respect of Scottish building needs?

I certainly have in mind that there will be consultations with other Departments and interests concerned now that the Report is available. It is not, of course, a question of just the potentialities of the scheme. We have to consider such matters as the design, the assembly and the market.

In view of the fact that the Scottish steel industry is functioning at only about 50 per cent. of capacity, will the Minister take very closely into account the fact that this might mean the additional use of steel? Has he any knowledge of how the steel industry will be affected?

I appreciate the difficulties that exist and I want to be as helpful as possible, but what I do not want to do at this stage is to offer too optimistic a forecast of the possibilities.

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, may I ask him to consider extending the nature of this inquiry to consider other forms of alternative work that might be done in shipyards? Will he also consider, in view of the interest in this, publishing as much of the Report as he can?

So far as wider inquiries are concerned, that is another matter. We have set up this specific inquiry and I shall study it and report to the House as soon as possible. I shall certainly bear in mind the question of publication.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he will transfer the National Assistance Board facilities in Oldham to ground floor premises nearer the centre of the town.

As it now seems unlikely that we can solve this problem quickly by leasing satisfactory accommodation, we are looking for a site for the erection of a new building.

I appreciate what the Minister says, but will he bear in mind that this office is 29 steps up from the street level, that it is a bus ride out of the middle of Oldham, and that the lavatory accommodation is not what it might be? Does he realise that this is almost intolerable for the Oldham people who have to go there? Will he take advantage of the general redeployment going on in the centre of Oldham so that what he has in mind could be dovetailed into that arrangement?

We realise the difficulties. It is for that reason that we are trying to find a site as soon as we possibly can. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman appreciates, there are difficulties in finding a suitable site.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why the building to be erected by his Department on a site in Dovecot Street, Stockton-on-Tees, is not scheduled to be ready for occupation until the end of 1965; and if he will expedite construction in view of unemployment locally in the building industry.

Construction is due to start early in 1964, and the building is planned for occupation early in 1966. The preparation of drawings and bills of quantities and tendering procedures are estimated to take 12 months, and the construction and furnishing of the building a further 24 months, but I am looking into this to see whether special steps can be taken to bring forward the starting date.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that dependent on the completion of this building is a large number of most important local authority projects? Why is it necessary, using modern building techniques and materials, to spend 24 months constructing a simple building of this sort? Is this to be a model for the future progress of the building industry?

We are looking at the possibility of speeding up this work, for the very reasons which the hon. Gentleman has put forward.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether his approval has been sought for the construction of a new elephant house at the London Zoo; and what is the estimated cost of this project.

My right hon. Friend's approval was sought and given for this scheme. The cost of the project is the responsibility of the Zoological Society of London.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that, in the autumn of 1961, restrictions had to be placed on the building of homes by local authorities because of pressure on scarce building resources? Is he satisfied that the approval he gives to projects of this kind will not interfere with the much more important task of house building?

Approval in this case is sought from us in our capacity as landlord, and I do not think that the other considerations should rightly enter into it. As I said, the cost is entirely borne by the Zoological Society.

Will my hon. Friend give an undertaking that he will not build any permanent establishments for Trojan horses in the body politic?

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what consideration he gave to accommodating Government Departments in the North-East before deciding to lease State House, Holborn, at a rental of £312,000 per annum.

State House was leased from June, 1961, to meet certain urgent requirements which could not have been met by accommodation in the North-East.

Is it not outrageous that this amount of money should be paid out in rent? Is it not a fact that, after 28 years, when the lease expires, the taxpayer will have coughed up more than £8½ million and not bought a brick? Does the Minister realise that, if he were to make inquiries in the North-East, he would find that a building could have been erected for less than half that amount? Why should the North-East and the rest of the country be bled to death while London gets all it wants? Is it not time that this business was stopped?

The rent is very reasonable at 24s. a square foot. Question No. 6 raises the matter of building in the North-East.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the capital value of this transaction in terms of rent? His Ministry has contracted to pay a rent of £312,000 per annum for a period of 25 or 28 years. Can he tell us what capital profit this represents to the speculative builders who erected the building? How much did the building cost, and what is the capitalised value of the rent on these figures? This is an important matter.

All I am concerned with is the rent for the period of the lease and whether it is reasonable or not. It is an office building of about 240,000 square feet with net office accommodation of 203,000 square feet, and it will accommodate 1,474 people.

Did the Minister take this decision himself? Was it a high-level decision properly taken after consideration, or was it something done rather down the line for which the Minister took responsibility later? I do not think that people generally will readily accept what the right hon. Gentleman has just told us. He does not seem to have done his homework on the subject.

I am delighted to cross swords with the hon. Gentleman for the first time on these matters. Of course, I accept full Ministerial responsibility for everything that happens in my Department. In fact, as I said, the decision was taken in June, 1961. I am quite happy to say that I think that it was a reasonable decision. These offices were required for the people who are in them. We have done a great deal to disperse offices from central London, and I hope that we shall do more.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what would be the estimated cost of a new building in Durham to accommodate the same number of people now to be employed in State House, Holborn.

About £1½ million, including the cost of a site and on the assumption of a similar use.

Does not that prove the case that a building could have been erected in Durham for less than half the cost to the Ministry of State House?

I do not so. It is undoubtedly true that buildings and rents in the Provinces are cheaper than in the central area of London, but we never accommodate Staff in central London without considering the possibilities elsewhere. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are at present designing offices in Durham for about 2,000 staff at a cost of about £2 million.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why the cost of occupational services at State House, Holborn, amounts to £260,000, in addition to a 28-year lease at a rental of £312,000 per annum; and what action he is taking to reduce these liabilities.

We were successful in negotiating a low rent for good accommodation which was urgently needed. In accordance with normal practice the lessee met the initial cost of occupational services as part of the bargain.

Are not the Government getting very poor value for this rather exorbitant rent of £6,000 a week if, on top of that, they are to spend £260,000 for partitioning, lighting, decoration, provision of canteens, cinema, and goodness knows what else? Are the Government completely crazy?

It should be borne in mind that many of the staff who have gone into these offices at State House have left accommodation which was at higher rents or at higher market rents. To that extent, this is an advantage to us.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give further information about this? He has been very reticent. Who are the owners of State House? Should not the House of Commons be made aware of the names of those he has been negotiating with?

This was part of the ordinary process of negotiation. I have given all the information I could possibly give about the size of the offices, about those to be accommodated, and where they have come from.

If the right hon. Gentleman is so satisfied that this is a reasonable rent, why did his predecessor keep saying that it was against public policy even to admit what the rent was?

I am glad that I have given some further information to the House. It seems perfectly reasonable to give the rent and explain what people have gone into this building. They are people from the D.S.I.R., who have to be in London and near scientific societies, the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance office for the region, which is rightly in the area, and people from the Patent Office in Holborn.

If a commercial company considers it reasonable to pay rents of 20s. to 30s. per square foot per annum for offices in central London, is not a rent of 24s. per square foot very reasonable?

is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, by taking this lease of accommodation which has been standing vacant for nearly two years, the Government got the developers out of a jam? Is he aware that if they had left the developers in a jam this would have had a healthy effect on office building in central London to the benefit of London as a whole?

My concern was with the requirements of the Government for offices.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that it was not he who told us what the rent was? We got it out of the newspapers.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the completely unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he proposes to provide for the improvements in the servery in the Members' Tea Room.

We hope to carry out a number of improvements during the Summer Recess this year, including those mentioned in reply to the hon. Lady's Question to the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee on 17th December, 1962.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that this matter has been dragging on for the last two and a half years and that we have had promises of this kind before? Does he appreciate that for Members of the House to have to go on waiting for improvements in this dilapidated, untidy and unfit kitchen is, particularly in a building of this kind, just not good enough? Cannot he do something before the long recess?

I realise that the position is unsatisfactory. This is why I am anxious to get the work done just as soon as we can. However, it is not possible to do it earlier because the fitting of a waste disposal unit, which is one of the main things to be done on the site, is a major operation which can be carried out only during the long recess in the summer.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware of the need to preserve certain industrial monuments; and whether he will make a statement with particular reference to the listing of these monuments in Great Britain.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware that a great number of industrial works of the greatest interest still survive in this country; and whether he will consider making a list of these monuments.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether, in view of the growing interest in the history of science and technology, he will take steps to encourage research into the history of the many industrial monuments which exist in this country.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he has received the Report of the Council of British Archaeology on the preservation of industrial monuments in Staffordshire; and what plans he has now made for the more effective preservation of industrial and scientific monuments in England.

My Ministry and the Council for British Archaeology have now agreed to co-operate in a nation-wide survey of industrial monuments, which I hope will start within two months. I am grateful for the help of the Council for British Archaeology and I hope that industry will also co-operate. The pilot survey in Staffordshire will take several years to complete, but the work so far done has already provided useful guidance on this problem.

Does the Minister realise that that Answer is quite satisfactory and that his recognition of the work done for so many years by the Council of British Archaeology is much welcomed?

I am grateful for that assurance.

I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, but can he say whether these industrial monuments are considered of sufficient importance to be eligible for grant from the Historic Buildings Council?

In certain circumstances this may be possible, but that, of course, is not the purpose of the survey.

In view of the time which the survey will take, will the Minister take any steps in the meantime to preserve monuments which might be lost, for instance, the first iron bridge in the world, the Coolbrookdale Bridge, the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, and the Abbeydale Works at Sheffield, which still have some of the original tilt hammers in them?

I am perfectly prepared, while the survey is taking place, to use the powers I have under the Ancient Monuments Act to preserve worthy structures of this kind.

What type and what numbers of staff has the right hon. Gentleman available for this project?

I propose to appoint one expert to help in what will be a voluntary survey carried out under the auspices of the Council of British Archaeology by its many constituent organisations.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he proposes to increase the number of courts in Scotland in which criminal cases may be heard.

To relieve the present shortage of court accommodation in Parliament House, Edinburgh, we are examining in consultation with the Scottish Office the possibility of providing a further two courts in this building. Responsibility for the provision of Sheriff Court Houses rests with local Court House Commissioners.

Since legal aid is likely before long to become available in Scotland in criminal cases, may I ask my hon. Friend to ensure that the implementation of this is not held up by the shortage of court accommodation? Can he say whether, apart from sheriff court accommodation, he is considering whether further accommodation is needed anywhere else other than in Parliament House, Edinburgh—for example, in the High Court in Glasgow?

We are considering first and foremost the possibilities of these two courts in Edinburgh. I think that a question about legal aid would be properly put down to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the inordinate delay which takes place in the Glasgow courts? Between the date of the alleged offence and the pleading diet an interval of four months elapses, and between the pleading diet and the charge being dealt with another four months elapse. Will the hon. Gentleman consider this question not only in respect of Edinburgh but in respect of Glasgow and Aberdeen from where solicitors and witnesses go to Edinburgh instead of to courts at the seat of the incident?

In so far as my right hon. Friend has responsibility in the matter, I will certainly look at that point.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what devices the Building Research Station has evolved to enable work on house building to proceed in adverse weather conditions; and what steps he is taking to see that these new techniques are more widely adopted.

Over the past few years the Building Research Station has carried out research on ways of ensuring continuity of building work in winter or bad weather, and has published the results both in its own publications and in building trade journals.

My own Department has issued advisory leaflets on the technique of bricklaying and concreting in cold weather, and these are obtainable from the Stationery Office. I am sending copies to the hon. Gentleman.

More research is needed, and our Directorate General of Research and Development will be co-ordinating further work on these problems.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say why the propaganda has been so unsuccessful and why building goes on in Canada and Russia, for example, through much harder winters than we have? Will he consider giving financial incentives to the adaptation of measures which can be used?

I think that that raises wider issues than are raised in the Question. As I have said, we recognise that more research into this problem is needed, and we propose, through our Director-General of Research and Development, to give help in that respect.

The hon. Gentleman says that wider research is needed, but surely one must know why it is that this can be done in winter in other countries whereas the moment the slightest quantity of moisture is precipitated here all outside building operations stop.

We need further information about this matter. After all, conditions in different countries vary. What may be an economic proposition in a country like Canada may not be an economic proposition here.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the amalgamation of the Works Services of the three Service Departments under him, how many civil engineers in his Department are experienced in construction of docks and piers and how many have experience as divers.

As from 1st April next there will be in my Ministry 100 civil engineers experienced in construction of docks and piers, of whom 40 are trained as divers and are below the maximum age Limit of 45 for these duties.

In view of the announcement yesterday about integration between the three Armed Services, does not this arrangement seem rather illogical? What can my right hon. Friend offer to offset the inter-departmental delays which there are bound to be? No doubt the people whom he mentioned have been merely drafted wholesale from the Works Department of the Admiralty.

I should have said that our earlier announcements made yesterday's announcement seem logical. This is part of a process of integration which will be very valuable.

In view of the debate which we shall have later today, can the right hon. Gentleman say how many staff he will employ and whether any, and if so how many, military personnel will he seconded from the Service Departments? Will he be responsible for undertaking work for the Service Departments overseas?

The number of staff in my Ministry will rise as a result of these changes from 23,300 to 61,000, or thereabouts. I will be responsible for the building and maintenance work of the Service Departments overseas, and the figure for this is given in the Defence estimates.

Is the Minister in possession of an organisation to undertake the many requirements of the Service Departments overseas?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on his inquiries into industrial building techniques.

I have established a Directorate General of Research and Development. Its task is to help me further the development and application of industrialised building techniques on a sound technical and economic basis. I have recently issued the first of a series of technical statements on dimensional co-ordination for industrialised building, and will issue further statements in the course of the year.

Can the Minister give any indication as to when he expects any results from this, because quite a lot of people require jobs and homes? Surely it is in the best interests of all to bring these two needs together as quickly as possible.

I appreciate the need for speed. The first result is this statement on dimensional co-ordination which provides an agreed basis for dimensional co-ordination in the public sector for houses, hospitals, schools and offices. Further statements will follow. I hope that this will assist very much in the design of buildings and the manufacture of components.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the fact that the head of the new works organisation, the chief architect and the chief engineer are to be those who occupied similar positions in the old Ministry of Works, to what extent new methods of working as distinct from those traditional in his Department are to be employed.

0: My new Directorate-General of Works will adopt the best practices and methods of the four existing organisations which are being integrated. It will also have the benefit of the pioneering work of the newly formed Directorate-General of Research and Development.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is still a great deal of anxiety among the professional works staff of the three Service Departments and that this looks like a take-over by his Department rather than a merger? Can he take some more steps to show that he will use the best resources from all four Works Departments?

I have announced the reconstitution of the Directorate-General of Works as well as the constitution of the new Directorate-General of Research and Development. Three of the appointments have gone to people in my Ministry. The Director-General of Works comes from the Admiralty. The Chief Civil Engineer will come from the Air Ministry. A new Deputy Secretary has been appointed from the Ministry of Education, and there is an Under-Secretary from the Scottish Office, while one of the top appointments has gone to the D.S.I.R. We are taking steps to ensure that we get the cream of the Departments working on these matters.

In the anxiety to retain the so-called cream, is it not a fact that some of the experience and skill of the old engineers of the Ministry of Works is being jeopardised?

I do not think so. There will be great value found in the experience of the Ministry of Works which built such projects as Spadeadam, the Bedford wind tunnel and the Jodrell radio telescope. There is also the experience of the engineers and others in the Service Departments.

Bearing in mind that much of this experience is traditional in Government Departments, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman what arrangements he has in a merger like this? Are there wider consultative arrangements with outside industry and others, or is this just a closed enclave?

It is perfectly possible for us to do as we have done with the inquiry on the shipyards—to bring in outside people to work together with the people in the Civil Service to get the best possible solution. I do not exclude any possibilities, but a merger of this kind is a complicated operation, and it is taking some time. I think that the House will have every reason to be fully satisfied with the results.

Will my right hon. Friend recognise that he appears, at any rate to me, to have announced a fairly dramatic change of policy in answer to a supplementary question and that the House would be better served by a full statement on this, or at least by a White Paper?

I have not announced anything new. There has been a series of announcements from Admiralty House since I was appointed explaining the transfer of responsibilities and the nature of the reorganisation taking place.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the high rate of unemployment in many parts of the country, what action is being taken by his Department to expand programmes of public works.

As the Ministry primarily concerned with the capacity of the construction industries, we have been associated with the policy already announced by the Government of increasing building programmes generally and in areas of high unemployment. These increases consist primarily of £70 million of comparatively quick-moving investment which, as far as practicable, has been steered to areas of unemployment. Public authorities in areas of high general unemployment have also been authorised to put in hand schemes costing up to £15,000 amounting to an additional £6 million of work which can be carried out quickly. In concert with other Ministries, we have taken action where appropriate to bring forward our own building projects.

In view of the direct responsibility his Department has, can the right hon. Gentleman say, in the light of the last figure of unemployment given to this House, how many jobs his Department has actually succeeded in creating in the areas of high unemployment faced with this challenge?

We may be able to do that statistical exercise in due course. We have tried to select projects which offer the maximum potentialities for providing employment in particular areas according to the nature of the unemployment that exists.

While fully supporting the ideas behind my right hon. Friend's announcement, I am slightly tired of generalities. Could he please put in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing in which areas of high unemployment all these projects lie in order that we may judge whether his plan is a success or not?

I should have thought that £76 million is a nice bit of generality by any standard. I will see how far it is possible to produce a list of projects and circulate it in some appropriate way.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities would be more able to carry out these works for relieving unemployment if the Government grants were more generous? Will he consult his right hon. Friends about that?

I take the point and will consult as far as possible.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what plans he has to provide adequate parking facilities for the cars of workers in, and visitors to, the Houses of Parliament.

The authorities of the Palace of Westminster allocate space available for parking within the precincts of the Palace. We shall certainly take whatever opportunity the new Bridge Street development may provide to increase parking space for the Palace of Westminster.

Has not the Department a responsibility in this matter? Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that visitors who come here quite frequently find that they are compelled to go miles away to park their cars and then are amazed, once they come inside the Palace of Westminster, to find large areas of unused space which, if it were intelligently allocated, could be used for car parking facilities? Will his Department examine this problem?

As I have said, the responsibility for the allocation of space within the precincts of the House is a matter for the authorities of the House. There is total space within the precincts as a whole for some 337 cars. I think it right that priority should be given to hon. Members and to officials who have to work here.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware of how unsatisfactory this Position is? Is he aware that it is no use speaking about the "authorities of the House"? The authorities of the House ought to be subordinate to the House itself and its needs, which are not catered for at all. This concerns not only Members of Parliament and visitors. The Press also has a great deal of difficulty with car parking. Will the hon. Gentleman do something about it?

I should be getting beyond the scope of the Question if I were to enter into a debate about the responsibilities of the authorities of the House.

Have Members of Parliament priority to park their cars when they come here?

Yes, Sir. The authorities of the House give first priority, as I understand it, to hon. Members and, secondly, to those officials who have to come here in order to work. I understand that members of the general public are allowed to park in Old Palace Yard if space is available.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, what progress he has made with plans for improving catering arrangements in the Royal Parks.

We are now negotiating new contracts for catering in the Royal Parks to run from next year. My plans include improvements in existing restaurant buildings and the provision of two completely new restaurants in the central Parks in substitution for two existing buildings.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer will give much pleasure to members of the public who use the Royal Parks?

Can my right hon. Friend say whether Hampton Court will be included?

Apart from the central Parks, I am not planning any changes in any of the Royal Parks, except Regent's Park and Hampton Court.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals he has under consideration for Son et Lumièere in London during the summer of 1963.

With the agreement of the Constable of The Tower, I have approved proposals for a programme of Son et Lumière at the Tower of London this summer. The audience will watch from boats moored in the River Thames. The entertainment will be sponsored by the London Tourist Board and will be put on from the end of May to September.

While some of my constituents may be disappointed that Hampton Court has not been selected, is my right hon. Friend aware that this Son et Lumière programme will give a great deal of pleasure to Londoners? Can he say how many people will be able to see these events and bow much the cost will be?

There will be room for about 1,000 in boats which will set off from Westminster pier and then be moored opposite the Tower of London. The cost of the boat trip and the Son et Lumière will be £1.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this project will, I hope, make life brighter under the Conservatives? Is he further aware that Atlas Lighting Ltd., which has had the contract for the project since 1958, has been refused it this year? Is he aware that his predecessor said in 1958:

"The show will he presented on behalf of my Department by Atlas Lighting Ltd. · who have generously undertaken to see that there is no risk to public funds."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th June, 1958; Vol. 589, C. 62.]

Is he aware that the firm has lost between £20,000 and £30,000 on this project? Is it therefore not a shame that it has not got this contract? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that this contract has been given to a Dutch firm and—what is more important still—that the Atlas Company is in my constituency?

This aspect of the contract was put out to tender in the usual way, and I gather that the successful company is a British company, although it may have Dutch associations as well.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this announcement was made in the Press last week? Does he think it fair that we as Members of the House of Commons should get a statement after a Press announcement? Is it fair that a firm which has done 95 per cent. of the work should be replaced by a Dutch firm?

One should be very careful about suggesting that the firm which has got the contract in the ordinary way does not deserve it. A number of people have been concerned in planning this project and it apparently aroused some interest in the Press as soon as the Question was put down.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what further research is now being carried out into houses and flats produced in factories or built-up from factory-made components.

Apart from the work that is being undertaken by the construction industry itself, research and development studies are being carried out by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, the Building Research Station of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and within my own Ministry. Prototypes of the more promising new systems developed abroad and in this country are in preparation or under construction.

Will my right hon. Friend make it clear whether his Department is actually to do any research, or simply to co-ordinate the efforts of other Departments and research institutes?

My responsibility is for co-ordinating all building research and development work throughout the Government service. My Department will carry out its own projects, but we will have a machine whereby the results as a whole can be looked at. My Directorate-General of Research and Development will carry out some research of its own while co-ordinating and extending the activities of existing groups, and it will encourage and develop generally the use of new and rapid methods of construction.

Did the Minister say whether his researches are being extended into the use of stocks of existing building resources? Is it his intention to marry those resources to the industrial techniques which he hopes to get from the use of shipyards and so on, and to see that development is not so one-sided that it causes unemployment in the more traditional industries?

I appreciate that point. We want to make full use of traditional resources and we shall do so. We hope that the new methods will provide a bonus.

asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the financial hardship experienced by old-age pensioners in finding, in one payment, the sum of £4 for their television licence, he will consider making arrangements for those pensioners who so desire to have 10s. per week deducted from their pensions over a continuous period of eight weeks.

I have discussed this suggestion with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, who is opposed to the setting up of special machinery for making deductions from pensions. National Savings facilities, however, are readily available at Post Offices and elsewhere for those who wish to save towards the payment for television licences.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that Answer will be received with great disappointment by many pensioners? Is he not aware that some rental firms allow pensioners to pay for their television sets weekly, but that pensioners cannot afford to pay the licence fee in one lump sum? If he cannot convince his right hon. Friend that these facilities should be given, will he contact some of the radio rental firms to see if they will agree to make the collection and to pass on the sum involved to his Department?

I do not think that that latter suggestion is practicable. The difficulty is that where there is a system of payment by instalments, either as a deduction from pension or by instalments direct to the Post Office, it would have to be applied not only to retirement pensioners, but to the disabled, the blind, widows and so on, and it would result in an enormous increase in the cost of collection which would affect the level of the licence fee.

Would it not be a better alternative to my hon. Friend's suggestion for the right hon. Gentleman and the Chancellor of the Exchequer once again sympathetically to examine the possibility of reducing the licence fees for old-age pensioners?

That has been considered many times. If the fee for retirement pensioners and old people generally were reduced, that would undoubtedly lead to a substantial increase in the fee for the rest of the viewing public.

What leads the right hon. Gentleman to that conclusion? To many of us it does not appear necessarily to follow.

Clearly, if the licence fee for many millions of elderly people were to be reduced, the cost falling on the rest of the population would inevitably have to be increased.

asked the Prime Minister what action Her Majesty's Government proposes to take to develop industry and employment in Scotland, following his recent discussion with the Scottish Council for Development and Industry.

I am still considering the many far-reaching suggestions made to me by the Scottish Council at our recent meeting.

As this was a very important deputation representing all sections of opinion in Scotland, are we not soon to have some positive results announced by the Prime Minister?

The Scottish Council made it clear to me that it was primarily concerned with solutions of the longer-term problems, which we are studying and about which statements will be made in due course. In the shorter term, much has already been done—for instance, the Tay Bridge, £4½ million; minor works brought forward, £2 million; the gas turbine electricity station at Dunfermline, £1¾ million; MacBrayne ferry ships, £1¼ million; extension of the teacher training colleges. This is a start. Other schemes are being urgently examined.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Patronage Secretary told an audience in Glasgow on Saturday that he had in his pocket a list of specific projects?

It must have been his waistcoat pocket.

Are we to understand that the jobs are now out of the pipeline and in the Patronage Secretary's pocket? Will the Prime Minister tell his right hon. Friend that the people of Scotland are entitled to know whether he will empty his pockets right away?

I do not think that there is any difficulty about the many proposals which have been made. Some I have already announced—I have given the list—and others will be announced as soon the they are finally agreed.

Is the Prime Minister aware that there will be a great deal to he done after this winter in Scotland, for instance, in connection with roads, and that there is a great housing problem in Scotland and many other public works which could usefully be undertaken, but that if they are to be undertaken, it must be during the summer, so that the plans and finance available for them must be announced in the very near future?

That was the purpose of bringing forward all these minor works which will no doubt be examined and announced.

asked the Prime Minister whether Her Majesty's Government have now taken decisions on the recommendation of the Lord President of the Council for expanding employment on the North-East Coast.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the decisions of Her Majesty's Government following the visits paid by the Lord President of the Council to the North-East; and what new proposals he has for reducing the rising unemployment in the region.

asked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for the full report of the Lord President of the Council on his visit to the North-East to be published.

asked the Prime Minister what decisions Her Majesty's Government have taken on the recommendations from the Lord President of the Council to alleviate the unemployment position in the North-East; and whether any will require legislation.

My noble Friend's recommendations are being examined urgently. It would not be appropriate to publish his report on his recent visit to the North-East or to disclose the nature of any advice or recommendations made by individual members of the Government to their colleagues.

A number of decisions to alleviate unemployment in the North-East have already been announced and further decisions will be announced shortly. All these measures are, of course, being reinforced by steps taken to strengthen the national economy generally.

As it is now two months since the noble Lord was appointed to the job and as this is not exactly a new problem, is it not rather disappointing that so far we have apparently not had any action? Can we expect a further statement from the Prime Minister?

Decisions already announced include the programme of seven advanced factories in the region, an increase of £1,400,000 in the region's road investment programme, the speedy putting in hand of additional construction schemes by local authorities, of £140,000; hospital boards, £400,000; Board of Trade, £364,000 and the Ministry of Public Works and Building, £35,000. In addition, there are the placing of the contract for the third Admiralty tanker and the invitation to tender for the second fleet replenishment ship and also, as was asked, the designation of Tees-side as a development district.

Is the Prime Minister aware that every time he answers Questions of this nature in that way he increases the suspicions of the North-East about the Government's intentions? Is he also aware that Lord Hailsham said that he would announce his proposals at at public meeting in the North-East but that we now find that he intends to do so at a 30s.-a-head luncheon? Is this the best way of indicating to the people of the North-East that the Government mean business in this matter?

I think that the people on the North-East Coast will receive a great degree of satisfaction both from what has been announced and what will be decided.

Why cannot the report be published? Would not the Prime Minister agree that if the report were published local authorities, trade unions, and industrialists would know what was required of them and be better able to assist?

When my noble Friend came back he made a number of proposals to his colleagues, all of which are being examined. Some will be acceptable, and some will have to be further worked on, and it would be impossible to carry on government if recommendations of this kind from one colleague to the rest of the Cabinet were to be made public.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether any one of the projects he has mentioned in his reply to my right hon. Friend have been started? If not, when do the Government intend to commence operations?

They are being started, or authorised by local authorities to be started. They have to make their plans and operate on the grants given to them. Finally, the designation of Tees-side as a devolpment district was asked for, and has been made.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is general appreciation in the north-east of England of the way in which the Lord President of the Council has grasped both the long-term and short-term problems of the area? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that the only critics of the appointment in the North-East are Labour Members of Parliament and a public relations firm appointed by the Labour Party to present Labour Party policy?

I am certain that my hon. Friend is right, that my noble Friend's appointment and the work he has already done have been well received by the people on the North-East Coast.

So that we may get the full value of the Prime Minister's earlier answer, would he say, from the list of works which he read out, how many of the decisions were in fact before the visit of the Lord President to the North-East Coast, and which, if any, have arisen from it?

I would ask for notice to go into the special points, but I was asked to give the broad policy which is being pursued. The long-term question must be more carefully examined, and the short-term question must, of course, partly arise from his visit and partly from what happened before it. The last one, the designation of Tees-side, was certainly the result of his visit.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has now reconsidered the question of the imposition of tolls on the Forth Road Bridge; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Prime Minister if he has now considered the representations made to him regarding the elimination of tolls on the Forth Road Bridge; and whether he will make a statement.

I have noted the representations made by the local authorities concerned with the Forth Bridge to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland last month but I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) on 13th December last.

Does the Prime Minister mean by that that the Government refuse to accede to the request of people of all political persuasions that the threat of tolls on this bridge should be withdrawn? Can he tell the House on what principles the Government are seeking to finance this and other projects? Is the Prime Minister aware that this is the only part of the trunk road system from Inverness to London on which one has to pay a toll? The tunnel under the Clyde, certain tunnels under the Thames, the tunnel under Hyde Park and the M.1 are all toll-free. Where is the consistency of Government policy in this matter?

This has been the policy since it was announced in 1955, which is that tolls should be applied to large and costly bridges and tunnels which effect particularly great savings in time and distance.

Is the Prime Minister aware that his previous Answer was a complete refusal of the request of the local authorities to remove these toll charges? Is he further aware of the great resentment caused in Scotland arising from the fact that many people in the prosperous South can use the Chiswick flyover, the Hammersmith flyover and the M.1, which cost millions of pounds, without having to pay any tolls, and yet, because a flyover in Scotland happens to cross the River Forth, the Scottish people, who are suffering from economic hardship, will have to pay every time they cross it? When will the Prime Minister mete out real justice to Scotland and eliminate the unfair discrimination that is going on at the present time?

As I said, this is the policy which was announced in 1955, and has gone on ever since.

On a point of order. In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature of those Answers, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment a week tonight.

asked the Prime Minister if he will propose to President Kennedy that, pending the conclusion of a treaty on general and complete disarmament, the Governments of the members of the United Nations should be invited to agree not to increase the level of national expenditure on armaments.

No, Sir. Such an arrangement would be too uncertain and too open to evasion to be, by itself, an acceptable substitute for properly controlled disarmament.

I do not suggest this as an alternative to controlled disarmament. Does the Prime Minister recall that it worked very well in the League of Nations long ago? Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that two years ago the Commonwealth Prime Ministers said that stopping the arms race was the most urgent and important question before the world; that since then there has been a greater increase in armament expenditure than ever before and that this may explain the atmosphere of intense suspicion and frustration in the Committee of Eighteen?

I agree with the immense importance of trying to conclude a disarmament treaty, but I feel—as I think that the right hon. Gentleman would feel on reflection—that this proposal that Governments should be invited not to increase their levels of expenditure would be impossible either to apply or to control.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give this matter further consideration as an urgent collateral measure before the disarmament treaty is made?

I have thought a good deal about this and the practical difficulties of controlling expenditure. We cannot even get an inspection system for many of the things for which we are asking. The control of armaments expediture of the countries concerned, and how to prevent evasion, seem to me to be almost insoluble problems.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will establish a disarmament agency responsible to himself for the purpose of engaging in research into the economic problems connected with arms control and disarmament.

No, Sir. I would refer the right hon. and learned Gentleman to the reply given him by my right hon. Friend the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 13th March last year.

But is the Prime Minister aware that in the United States both Government and industry are engaged in these studies? Is it not a fact that there is bound to be some dislocation during the transitional period, even though the Financial Secretary, in the reply to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, stated that the Government did not anticipate meeting any great difficulties in the utilisation of resources following disarmament?

I do not think that this form of study is necessary and I feel that if we could achieve a disarmament agreement between the great Powers the sense of relief and advantage would be so great that world trade would bound forward with a new impetus.

As there are over 400,000 engineers in this country alone employed on making armaments, would not it be wise to have some plan for the future to see that these men are not thrown on the scrap heap and become unemployed if, happily, disarmament succeeds? Could not we get to know from America what they are doing along these lines?

A certain amount of study has been given to this, but I was asked about setting up a disarmament agency. I do not think that a special agency is necessary for this purpose.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the recent Report of the Royal Society, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if he will take steps to stem the increase in the rate at which outstanding scientists with research degrees are emigrating from this country.

asked the Prime Minister what study he has made of the Report of the Royal Society, a copy of which has been sent to him, concerned with the emigration of scientists to areas of the world which can offer better facilities; and what action he is taking to slow down this rate of emigration.

The Government are considering this Report. The estimates which it contains are of gross emigration of scientists holding post-graduate qualifications. No estimate could be made of immigration of high-quality scientists to this country, but this has for many years been of great benefit to British science.

We are rapidly increasing our expenditure on civil scientific research, and intend to continue to do so.

Does the Prime Minister realise that the emigration, on an increasing scale, of the cream of our highly educated scientists not only has very serious economic consequences but also indicates a glaring lack of confidence in the Prime Minister's ability to guide the future of this country?

There are two points to make on that supplementary question. First, the emigration is not on an increasing scale; the proportion has fallen since 1947. Secondly, about half the emigration is to the Commonwealth. This is one of the great benefits that we are able to give the Commonwealth.

Does not the Prime Minister agree that immigration into this country took place at a time in the 1930s when we were able to provide better facilities than any other country in Europe? Will not he inject a special urgency into the provision of good facilities?

I agree that in the pre-war years there were special pressures which brought scientists here from various countries, for other reasons. But it is remarkable that of all the Fellows of the Royal Society 10 per cent. are persons who were born and educated outside the United Kingdom.

Does not my right hon. Friend think—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Is my right hon. Friend aware of the fact that this shows how wise the Government were in the last Budget to raise the Surtax level from £2,000 to £5,000 a year?

I think that that was a very wise decision, and I hope that it will have some good effect upon energy and effort in all directions.

In view of the fact that the production of scientists in the United States is about 200 times greater than the number of scientists emigrating from this country to the United States, does not the Prime Minister think that the analysis made by the Minister for Science in another place the other day was somewhat ridiculous? Does he think that to slander the American educational system in this way really improves technical cooperation between men?

Although my noble Friend sometimes says things which are controversial, he never says anything which is ridiculous.