I do not know how we should best resume. Perhaps the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) will be so good as to ask his Question again.

asked the Minister of Transport what legislation he proposes to introduce to limit the carrying by road vehicles of bulk loads now being transported by other means.

Repeating the Answer, Sir—"None, Sir."

What has happened has given me an opportunity to rehearse what I was going to say in the first place.

Replying to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's prepared supplementary question, we are, of course, studying the views which have been put to us by the group under Sir Robert Hall which has now reported, and we shall take account of its views in our future policy. On the general question of the removal of bulk loads from road to rail, we have always taken the view that it is the desires and wishes of the customers, which really count here, and it is our job to provide a sufficiently developed transport system both by road and by rail to meet their likely requirements and needs.

Will my hon. Friend consider making a charge for the cost of the police escort in these cases? I suppose that this would be done by the Home Office. Will my hon. Friend make representations to the Home Secretary so that there might, at least, be some discouragement to the increase of these loads which lead to a tremendous amount of traffic congestion out of all proportion to their size?

With respect, I think that my hon. Friend is thinking more of heavy and wide indivisible loads, whereas the Question asked by the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) relates to loads of bulk, that is to say, bulk quantities. The point about police escort has been looked at before. We have always taken the view that it would be an unwise imposition to make.

But should not the Ministry of Transport be concerned with this sort of thing? There is the example that 800,000 tons of coal normally transported by lighter on the River Thames are, from 1st April, I understand, to be transported by road. Is not this the concern of the Minister, or does he say that it is not a matter for Her Majesty's Government?

I did not say that at all. As regards that case, I understand that the North Thames Gas Board has not yet reached a decision, and my right hon. Friend has asked to be kept informed of developments.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet reached a decision on whether the present requirement that road motor vehicles should be fitted with mud-flaps can be improved.

Work is still proceeding on this matter.

How much longer will this work proceed? The matter has been under consideration for over six weeks. Is not my hon. Friend aware that wet roads make motoring not only unpleasant but extremely dangerous, especially on high-speed roads? What are the difficulties about defining the type of motor car or motor vehicle which should use a mud-flap when on a public road?

The difficulty is that practical experimental work has to be done and, as the House will he aware, in recent weeks we have suffered not from rainy conditions, but from snow and ice. The experimental work has, therefore, been held up, but we are getting on with the matter as quickly as we can.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that mud-flaps have been used on many motor cars for many years? What further experiment is required to reach a decision?

We need experimental work to decide whether mud-flaps are the best answer to the problem or whether something better could be provided.

asked the Minister of Transport what new action he will take to protect the public, including both pedestrians and motorists, against the noise and danger caused by heavy goods vehicles, including danger resulting from diesel fumes; and what improvement has been made in the development of exhaust measurement.

Regulations now being prepared will lay down noise levels for motor vehicles which it will be unlawful to exceed. I do not accept the implication of the Question that heavy goods vehicles as a class are dangerous. Their accident record is, in fact, better than that of any other class of vehicle. It is an offence to emit smoke so as to cause danger to other persons on the road, and active steps are taken by our vehicle examiners in conjunction with the police to check excessive black smoke emission. Exhaust measuring instruments have not proved necessary for this purpose.

Is not the Minister aware that the application of measures against the emission of dangerous fumes are really ineffective and that increasing numbers of large heavy goods vehicles are emitting fumes which are dangerous from the viewpoint of both visibility and health in the country and in towns, and that it is time that effective action was taken to stop this?

Last year, we carried out a nation-wide series of smoke checks and no fewer than 83,000 diesel lorries were taken under observation. Nine thousand, eight hundred of them were emitting black smoke, 132 were issued with immediate prohibition notices, 3,900 with delayed prohibition notices and 4,000 warning letters were issued. We are trying to bring this problem of smoke emission to the attention of operators of heavy commercial vehicles. There is a great deal of evidence to show that our investigations and checks last year were extremely effective. I implore hon. Members, however, if they find cases of this nature occurring on the roads, to report the facts either to the local office of my right hon. Friend's Ministry or to our headquarters.

Will my hon. Friend say whether, despite what he has already said, the number of prosecutions for this offence is increasing?

I think so, but I cannot say definitely without notice.

Is the Minister aware that the number of 10-ton coal lorries per hour now passing through the County Borough of Derby has reached 240, or four a minute, and that they commit a grave nuisance with diesel fumes?

asked the Minister of Transport what instructions he has given to the teams at present analysing the problems of rural transport; and whether they are taking evidence from local authorities and county organisations interested in these problems.

The surveys we have set on foot are detailed factual studies. Information will come mainly from house-to-house canvassing. There is no question of taking evidence in a general sense, but local authorities and other organisations are giving valuable help in providing some of the facts we want.

Can my hon. Friend ensure that this fact is known to the local authorities concerned, because I am informed that certain rural district councils and so on have not had an opportunity to get into official touch with the people who are carrying out such an important job?

I am sure that the exchange of Questions and Answers this afternoon will be reported in the local authority journals and the Press. Any local authority which has any question or point to raise about this should be advised to get in touch with my right hon. Friend's Ministry.

What new evidence can the hon. Gentleman hope to obtain from mid-Wales about rural transport when the Jack Committee itself visited the area and there has been a special report by a panel of the Council for Wales on rural transport in Wales—in the very place where the survey in now taking place?

The point is that the surveys are intended to collect information about actual journeys carried out by individuals, the way in which they travel and the purpose for which they travel. Generally speaking, the terms of reference were set out in the reply that my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) on 27th November last, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman would have a look at that.

Would not the quickest way of assisting rural transport be to reduce the fuel oil tax?

That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary realise that both the House and the country as a whole will look upon his reply as merely another delaying tactic? He has had the Jack Report and another recent report on the transport needs of Great Britain in the next 20 years. The facts are pretty well known. Is not this just another excuse for taking absolutely no action? Will he not vitalise his Department and realise the pressing needs of rural transport?

No, Sir; it is not just an excuse for failing to take action. The purpose is to give us some detailed information of a kind that we must have before we can decide what is the right policy to adopt in respect of rural transport as a whole.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange for the Highway Code to be printed in various languages so that it can be handed to motoring visitors to this country on arrival at ports and airports.

I do not think that this is necessary. A free copy of the Highway Code is given to all foreign visitors who arrive with a car. The British Travel and Holidays Association's publication "Come to Britain" which is published in French and German includes a summary of the more important rules.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that apart from driving on the left—which is rather different from the practice on the Continent—we have a number of peculiar practices, and will he see that not only the French and the Germans have an opportunity to learn them? Can we not have a summary for the many other foreigners who come here?

Windscreen stickers on road signs and the rules of the road are distributed, worded in French and German. But we have no evidence that foreign visitors are involved in accidents as a result of lack of knowledge of the Highway Code, nor that their accident rate is higher than that of British residents.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if he will replace the level crossing at Steeton, near Keighley, with a bridge;

This level crossing is on a classified road for which the West Riding County Council is the highway authority. It has not as yet asked us to consider a scheme for its replacement. Should it do so, we will take into account any savings likely to be made by the railways.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend agree that the importance of replacing this level crossing is very great to the people of Silsden, that it is the only access between that town and the rest of the industrial West Riding and that the delays caused by it are exceedingly frequent? Will he make representations to the West Riding County Council to see whether it will move in this matter?

We appreciate that a detour of no less than four miles is involved in order to avoid the level crossing, and we realise that there are frequent delays to those who have to use it, but I assure my hon. Friend that if a scheme is put to my right hon. Friend he will certainly consider all the relevant factors, financial and otherwise. With regard to making representations to the council, I believe that my hon. Friend's Question will have drawn its attention to this matter.

asked the Minister of Transport when he proposes to announce the Government's new policy on railways; and if he will accelerate the decisions reached.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on Dr. Beeching's plan for railway reorganisation which has now been submitted to him.

I apologise to the Parliamentary Secretary and wish to explain that the last line of Question No. 16 was intended to invite him, not to accelerate the decisions—which we on this side are not sure whether we want applied at all—but to accelerate an announcement.

My right hon. Friend has now received, and is considering, the Railways Board's proposals for reshaping British Railways. He will make a statement on them as soon as possible, but I cannot yet say when this will be.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary go a little further in explaining what he means by "as soon as possible"? Can he give us an assurance that we shall have a definitive Government policy on the railways at least before the next election?

I think that the bon. Gentleman will, on reflection, understand what the expression "as soon as possible" moans. It means, as soon as we possibly can. As to the second part of his supplementary question, we have never made any secret of our policy for the railways. Indeed, we have spent a lot of time in this House debating Government policy for the railways. If the hon. Gentleman does not know it now, presumably he never will. I can only say that we will make a full statement on the matter as soon as we are ready.

I wonder if I may have an assurance from the Minister that before the Government take any decisions on this report there will be a full debate in the House on the whole matter? Secondly, may I ask him whether he remembers that the Prime Minister on 10th March, 1960, warned us that the public must expect inconvenience on certain lines by certain lines being closed, but that other means of transport would be made available? Other means of transport being made available is pretty important, because in many parts of the country, because of poor road conditions, this just cannot be done. Will my hon. Friend be very careful in the assessment of what lines are to be closed?

As to the question of a debate, I think the House would prefer to see the document first and hear what the Government have to say about it. My right hon. Friend did say on 5th December, in answer to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss), that

"the Government will take the House fully into their confidence before any final conclusions are reached on the Railways Board's proposals for the future size and shape of the railway system."—[OFFICIAL RFPORT, 5th December, 1962; Vol. 668, c. 171.]

May we have a definite assurance that the report from the Railways Board will be published, and published in full, so that we may be able to come to a proper consideration of the matter?

Oh, yes, it is far too good a report not to publish it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has studied the correspondence sent to him by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood; and if he will give a general direction to the British Railways Board that complaints from Members of Parliament should be dealt with in a proper manner.

This is not an appropriate matter for a direction. I am sure from what my right hon. Friend and I see of the large volume of Parliamentary correspondence with the Board, and from what hon. Members tell us, that the Board generally deals helpfully and sympathetically with the letters it receives.

Does not the Minister consider that when questions were raised about high prices charged for refreshments on British Railways it was improper for Dr. Beeching inaccurately and offensively to refer to my attitude on nationalisation; and will he not really take steps to see that Members do get detailed and courteous answers and not rude and offensive replies?

With all respect to the hon. Gentleman, I have looked at this correspondence, and I think there is some room for doubt whether both parties concerned were not just a little touchy on the whole subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I quite understand his point, and I think now Dr. Beeching is fully seized of the point and I think my right hon. Friend has had a word with the hon. Gentleman about it.

Whatever the general practice may be, however satisfactory it is or not, is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in this case there is no no doubt that Dr. Beeching, replying to my hon. Friend, rebuked him in a most offensive way—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—for making a complaint, and that while none of us expects or wants Dr. Beeching personally to investigate administrative complaints which may be put forward, we do expect, in the interests of the relationships between this House and the nationalised industries, that when the chairman of a board replies to a Member he should do so helpfully, and anyhow courteously?

I also have examined the correspondence and I am afraid I do not take the same view as the right hon. Gentleman does. [Interruption.] Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has seen it as well. I do not know. Anyhow I have seen it, and I do not take the same view, but we must remember that Dr. Beeching has a very big job to do and, as far as he is concerned, I know from personal conversation with him that he does take with the greatest seriousness his responsibility to tell hon. Members what he can about matters which they raise.

May we have an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that Dr. Beeching will be informed by his right hon. Friend that in future, when Members address questions either to Dr. Beeching or any official of the nationalised British Railways, in the replies no reference will be made to their political views, and, indeed, that their political views will be disregarded?

I do not think I can give any assurance of that kind at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It depends entirely on the circumstances and on what is actually said in the correspondence.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the accident at Barking, Essex, on 17th February, when a passenger train was derailed and crashed down an embankment into a chemical works; what other accidents there have been at this point since the completion of the railway modernisation scheme; what steps are being taken to prevent further accidents; and if he will recognise in some suitable way the resourcefulness and initiative of the chemical workers whose prompt action averted a serious disaster.

In view of the length of the factual part of the statement, I will, with permission, circulate it in full in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

While I join, as obviously all hon. Members will, in the appreciation which the hon. Gentleman has expressed, may I ask him whether his circulated Answer indicates that there is a special danger at this point?

The Answer indicates that there was a special danger, but alterations to the signalling arrangements are now being carried out, which should completely avoid such danger in future.

asked the Minister of Transport what proposals he has received from the Railways Board for major capital expenditure on the rebuilding of Dartford Station.

None, Sir.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman bear in mind that there is an urgent need for a new station, and will he give sympathetic consideration to any proposals that come forward?

Certainly, Sir. We understand that a scheme is being worked out by the Southern Region, but it has not yet been put to the Regional Railway Board.

asked the Minister of Transport what proposals he has received for major capital expenditure on the improvement of Stoke-on-Trent Railway Station.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now approve the British Transport Commission's proposals for reconstructing Stoke-on-Trent railway station and the capital expenditure involved.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on the proposed capital expenditure for the railway station of Stoke-on-Trent.

The British Railways Board has put no proposals to us for capital investment in reconstructing or improving Stoke-on-Trent railway station.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some time ago the British Transport Commission promised my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) that something along these lines would be done? Is he further aware that this station serves an extremely important industrial area and that it is in an appalling condition? It is dirty, untidy and unfit for people to use. Is it not time something was done?

Yes, but this is a matter for the Railways Board, and it has informed us that plans for modernising Stoke, to which my right hon. Friend referred as far back as November, 1961, have not yet been finished.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman do anything about the Board itself? Can he give an assurance that Dr. Beeching is not proposing to close Stoke Station altogether? Is he aware that the only time we ever get an improvement at Stoke Station is when we have a visitor from the Royal Family? In addition to arranging more visits by the Royal Family, will not he persuade the Board to produce a scheme?

When the proposal for Stoke Station is put to the Minister it will be considered on its merits.

In view of the unfortunate circumstances that have arisen, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman undertake to expedite consideration of this matter?

I will certainly see that these questions are brought to the notice of the Board.

asked the Minister of Transport what action he has taken on the advice he received from the Advisory Committee on Traffic Signs for Motorways; whether decisions have been taken on a system of motorway warnings and on police supervision of central control rooms; what other action is to be taken to make the motorways safer; where are the experiments on motorway safety being made; and on what roads will new safety equipment be installed.

The traffic signs provided on motorways are in accordance with the advice of that Committee. We propose, as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made, to install a system of remotely controlled illuminated warning signs on the M.5 motorway. These signs, like the emergency telephone system, will be connected to a central police control room.

I greatly appreciate that informative Answer. If what is contained in the Question is a success, will the hon. Gentleman set an example to the other Government Ministries by encouraging the export industries so that when we take a lead in these matters the export industries receive the encouragement which they deserve?

I think that all Her Majesty's Ministers encourage the export industries.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the inconvenience resulting from the prohibition of the left turn from Berkeley Street into Piccadilly; and, in view of the fact that a left turn would be with the stream of traffic, whether he will consider an alteration in the arrangements.

We are aware that this experimental prohibition, which helps pedestrians to cross Piccadilly, does inconvenience some drivers. My right hon. Friend is taking account of this in his current review of the whole traffic experiment of which this prohibition forms one part.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman note that the London taxi drivers have made representations to me saying that they support the contention in the Question and that this prohibition is causing tremendous inconvenience and annoyance? They have put forward their own proposals on safety which I understand would meet the situation which the Minister has in mind. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman take this matter very seriously?

We certainly will, but, of course, there are points on both sides.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the turn from Berkeley Street into Dover Street involves two right-hand turns across traffic followed by four left-hand turns—

Order. I do not think we can go all round my constituency on this Question.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the dangerous conditions occasioned by heavy traffic in Larkhall Rise, Clapham, London, S.W.4; whether he will consider authorising the provision of traffic signals at the junction of Larkhall Rise and Union Road to reduce the danger of accidents; and whether he will make a statement.

We are aware of the unsatisfactory accident figures for the junction of Larkhall Rise and Union Road. Our engineers are discussing possible remedial measures, including the provision of traffic signals, with the Wandsworth Metropolitan Borough Council.

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for that very satisfactory reply. As he is fully aware, there has been a large number of accidents here, and the road is no longer a small road but a main access in and out of London. I am grateful for the Answer, which I know will bring great relief to the residents in the area. I hope that it will not be too long before the negotiations are completed.

asked the Minister of Transport if he has considered the report, a copy of which has been sent to him, on the cost and delay of the worsening road traffic congestion in and around Trafford Park; what action he is taking to implement the proposals made in the report; and on what date construction will start on the proposed 232 route linking it up with the M.62 and other main roads.

The roads on the Trafford Park industrial estate and those giving immediate access to it are the responsibility of the local highway authorities. It is for them to initiate schemes to improve traffic conditions in this area. No doubt the authors of the report referred to have sent copies to the local highway authorities concerned. We shall consider such schemes as they may wish to submit to us in the ordinary way for grant or approval.

Would I be correct in interpreting that as a very sympathetic reply? If constructive proposals are sent in as early as possible, will they receive consideration in the light of the urgency of this matter and be dealt with in the same appreciative way in which the Minister has answered the Question?

We will always examine with the utmost sympathy any proposals put forward by local highway authorities for the improvement of their roads. I cannot go further than that until we see what the proposals are.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of his proposals to spend over £5,000,000 in Gloucestershire, Somerset and Wiltshire during the next five years, how much he estimates he will spend in Dorset.

In the three years 1962–63 to 1964–65 commitments of Exchequer funds on major improvements of trunk and classified roads in Dorset are expected to be about £440,000. I cannot at this stage give estimates for later years.

Are not these figures very much smaller for Dorset than they are for the other counties? Is it not depressing for Dorset people that they always seem to be bottom of the list for road improvements and top of Dr. Beeching's list for proposed rail closures?

No, Sir. As I think the House realises, the funds which we have available for road improvements are distributed on the basis of the traffic need. The other counties which he has in mind have received a larger share, and will receive a larger share, but their traffic problems are greater.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, with the development of the Winfrith Heath Atomic Energy Station and the continuing increase in the holiday trade, a great strain is placed particularly on holiday roads in Dorset and along the coast? Will he bear this in mind in bringing forward positive proposals.

These factors are always borne in mind, but we have only a very limited amount of money available to do a large amount of work. We must have some system of priorities, and the system is based on the traffic needs in the area concerned.

Whatever may be the complaints of Dorset, the hon. Gentleman should not get away with the idea that Wiltshire is satisfied with the amount of money being spent on its roads—

Order. We could go all round England on that basis.

asked the Minister of Transport what methods are employed by his Department to measure road traffic congestion; and what is his estimate of the effect road traffic congestion has upon Britain's economy.

This is a highly technical matter and is not capable of a short explanation. In practice, various methods are used, according to the purpose of the study. I accept that road traffic congestion is detrimental to the country's economy. That is why we are now engaged on the largest road building programme Britain has ever had.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, according to Professor Jones of Leeds University, the estimated cost of road congestion in the United Kingdom today is £500 million a year and that by 1967 it will have reached the astronomical figure of £2,000 million? Will he and his right hon. Friends bear in mind this cost to the economy when considering Dr. Beeching's proposals for the closure of stations and branch lines?

The estimates which various distinguished people provide from time to time as to the cost in money terms of congestion continue to rise. I have heard of £240 million, £300 million and now £500 million. The difficulty about all these estimates is that they are based on an assumption that in an ideal situation all traffic should be able to make all its journeys under light traffic conditions. That is something which one cannot expect to happen and it is not a realistic basis for assessment.

Will my hon. Friend remember that, if the proposal to have even larger lorries on the roads goes through, the congestion will be worse than it is now?

Not necessarily. It depends on how quickly we can get on with our road building programme.

asked the Minister of Transport what advice he received when he consulted interested bodies concerning the imposition of a 40 miles per hour speed limit on the A.51 clearway in the vicinity of Vicars Cross, near Chester; which local authorities were directly, and which indirectly, consulted; and if he will make a statement.

The proposal for a 40 m.p.h. speed limit on this road was put forward in 1961 by the Cheshire County Council with the support of the Chester Rural District Council. We were unable to accept the proposal because we did not regard the speed limit as justified. We have recently consulted the county council again to see whether it adheres to its earlier views now that the road has been made a clearway. We await its reply.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that all the local authorities, including Cheshire County Council, have already made their views perfectly clear, and will he, in view of the unanimous desire of all the local interests, impose a speed limit at the very earliest opportunity?

No, Sir, not without further consideration, and not without an answer to our last question. It is a fact that the fatal accident rate and the proportion of fatal and serious accidents are well below the national average. No pedestrians ware involved in accidents in the five years from 1958 to 1962 and over a quarter of the accidents which occurred were with parked vehicles, which have now ceased.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now authorise a pedestrian crossing in North Street, Midhurst.

No, Sir, for the reasons which my right hon. Friend explained fully in correspondence with my hon. Friend.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that that Answer will give a great deal of displeasure to the people of Midhurst? Will he confirm that he has already received a petition signed by hundreds of local people asking for this pedestrian crossing, bearing in mind that the main street of Midhurst is a main thoroughfare between London and the coast and that in summer it is very dangerous? Will he please think about this again?

Certainly I will bear that in mind, but, as my right hon. Friend has already informed my hon. Friend, we would be prepared to consider North Street as a possible site for a panda crossing when the results of the current experiment have been assessed.

On a point of order. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of my hon. and gallant Friend's reply, I beg leave to give notice that I shall raise the matter at the first opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the accidents and congestion in Berkhamsted, he will give a higher priority to the construction of the Berkhamsted by-pass.

No, Sir. There are many other schemes whose claims for inclusion in the road programme are greater.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that that reply will give great disappointment to many people who have to cross this very dangerous road, and that it is a very long road, probably the longest street in any town in England, with traffic continually going through it? My hon. and gallant Friend is aware of the great congestion there. Will he give me an undertaking that, if the town itself manages to make its own arrangements to clear up the congestion, it will not then be put even lower down the list of priorities for by-passes?

I think it depends exactly on what the arrangements are. I do not see why that should follow. The proposed by-pass forms part of a comprehensive improvement of the A.41 road which includes by-passes at Watford, King's Langley, Hemel Hempstead and Tring, and it does seem that these latter places which are closer to London are more urgent to deal with.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange for an experiment with remotely controlled warning signs to be conducted on the M.1 thereby enabling a comparison to be made in due course of the accident record before and after the experiment with a view to the assessment of the value of such installations on future motorways.

asked the Minister of Transport when the results of the experiment on M.5 of illuminated signs giving warning of hazards will be ready.

The motoring organisations have suggested that we should install such signs on M.1, but because no spare circuits are available on that motorway we are arranging for a trial to be carried out on M.5 where spare circuits have been provided in the emergency telephone cable. All major motorways being built or to be built will similarly be equipped with spare circuits, as will M.1 when re-cabling is carried out. A record will be kept of accidents before and after the installation of the signs.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, which I know will cause great interest to the motoring organisations. I thank him very much indeed.

Will my hon. Friend agree that it is quite clear that the use of these illuminated signs is becoming pretty obviously necessary, and that we do not want too long-drawn-out an experiment before putting them in?

I think we ought just to let the experiment get started before we decide to end it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will prohibit the siting of bus stops on stretches of road painted with double white lines, where the width of the road makes it impossible for traffic to overtake a stationary bus.

It would be difficult to prohibit this altogether.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that a Standing Committee, of which I was a member, made it an offence to cross a double white line, for which one can have one's licence endorsed? Will he, therefore, give some advice to the public at large about what they ought to do—stop behind the bus and hold up the traffic, or break the law and risk having their licences endorsed?

The advice that I have to give—depending on the circumstances, of course—is that they should stop if they are in any doubt at all. What I think I had better do is to send my hon. Friend a copy of the circular of advice that we gave to local authorities in 1960, and perhaps he will study the matter from that.

asked the Minister of Transport what observations his Department has made to date on the effectiveness of Panda pedestrian crossings; and whether he will make a statement.

We are calling for a full report on the results of the experiment with panda crossings when the 12-month trial period ends on 2nd April. The present indications are that these crossings are certainly no less safe than zebra crossings and that, once the public becomes accustomed to them, they are generally proving successful.

Can my hon. Friend say roughly how soon after the report is received he intends to make an announcement about whether these crossings will become a permanent part of our traffic scene?

The 12 months' trial period, as I said, ends at the beginning of April. The results will take a little time to assess. I rather doubt whether we shall be able to say anything much before May.

Will there be any indication in the report of how often each of these crossings has been used per day?

I am afraid that I cannot say that without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet received the observations of the Kent County Council on the alternative proposals for the route of the approach road to the Dartford Tunnel from the south; and when he expects to publish the necessary orders under the Highways Act, 1959.

Yes, Sir. Our engineers are examining them. Until this study is completed I cannot say when the necessary Orders will be published.

Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend's earlier lack of foresight and procrastination already means that much of the benefit from the tunnel will be lost by the congestion which is likely to develop on the southern approach road? Has he put this into a road programme? If not, will he do so? Will he ensure that there is no further waste of time in this matter?

I could not accept that at all. The fact of the matter is that the agent authority, which is the Kent County Council, considers that the alternative proposals are inferior to its original proposals. Our engineers are now going into the matter, and we have asked the county council for further data.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will grant additional funds to local authorities, in view of the heavy expenditure incurred in snow clearance, particularly in the West Country.

asked the Minister of Transport what estimate he has made of the total cost of frost damage to roads during the past winter.

asked the Minister of Transport what assessment has been made of the extent of damage to road surfaces caused by continuously severe whether conditions; and, in view of the burden imposed on local authorities, what financial and other assistance he is now prepared to offer.

We have invited the county councils to let us have estimates of the additional expenditure they will have incurred on classified roads in the present quarter because of the exceptionally severe weather. We will then consider, as my right hon. Friend has already promised, what additional grant assistance can be given. It is too soon to expect any worthwhile information about frost damage.

Has my hon. Friend received any of the claims yet, and have any been met up to this moment?

No, Sir. A number of local authorities have told us about their expenditure, but in due course we must have the full picture for each of them, and, indeed, for all local authorities, and we shall get that as soon as it can be done.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in response to an invitation by his colleague I put a Question to the Minister of Transport on this matter, and this morning I received a very unsatisfactory reply? Does what my hon. Friend has now said mean that there is an advance in policy and that the Government are really going to make a serious contribution towards the cost of the very considerable road damage?

I am afraid that I am not aware of the Answer to which my hon. Friend refers. I will certainly look into it. However, the Answer which I have just given the House is, of course, an authoritative one.

May I ask whether the definition of "West Country" includes Gloucestershire, where the damage has perhaps been more severe than in any other part?

I think that once one started to discriminate between different parts of the country as to which suffered most one would find oneself in very deep water.

The exceptional nature of the extreme weather of the past winter will be realised by the House and the nation generally. Will the hon. Gentleman draw the necessary lessons from it and try to conduct some further research into the best type of equipment that can be used to deal with any similar set of circumstances arising at some future date? This is a very important non-party line of approach. The Minister ought to authorise some research along such lines.

Yes, Sir. As soon as we began to learn lessons from the recent bad weather, my right hon. Friend gave instructions that a very full investigation was to be carried out. We shall draw on the experience of local authorities throughout the country as well as that of our own organisation to learn what we can and to make improvements for the future.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now take steps to have a bridge built across the Humber from Barton-on-Humber, having regard to the facts that the steel industry is not working at full capacity, that there is unemployment in Scunthorpe, notably among steel erectors, and that the making of the approach roads would employ a considerable number of men.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer my right hon. Friend gave on 13th February to my hon. Friends the Members for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. Coulson) and Haltemprice (Mr. Wall), and to the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Commander Pursey).

Is not the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there has been a considerable further period of Tory rule since that Answer was given, with a consequent rise in unemployment? Is he not aware that the unemployment is quite severe, even in Scunthorpe and in Barton-on-Humber, and that the steel erectors in Scunthorpe are unemployed now? Would not this project give them some hope of employment and bring great benefit to a very large region south of the Humber, apart from what might happen on the north side of it?

We do not consider that the scheme has sufficient justification from the point of view of transport. I am aware that this was recommended in the Rochdale Committee's Report, but I point out that the cost of the bridge alone would be in the region of £15 million to £20 million, quite apart from the cost of improvement of the approach roads.

asked the Minister of Transport what further steps he intends to take to promote pedestrian safety where the A.20 trunk road bisects the village of Harrietsham.

A footpath from East Street to Fairbourne Lane will be provided as soon as weather conditions permit. We are also prepared to provide a bus lay-by when a site is agreed.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that this is no comfort to the parishioners of this village, since the old people's homes, almshouses and many private residences are situated on the south side of the road whereas the church, the post office and the school are on the north side? There has recently been a fatal accident there. Will he look at this again more seriously with a view to having a speed limit of 30 or 40 m.p.h., or the installation of a pedestrian-operated crossing or some other method?

We shall certainly listen to the hon. Gentleman's representations, and we are sorry that he has not been encouraged by what has been done.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that all that he has outlined this afternoon is an improvement in the passage of persons from east to west, whereas what the pedestrians and parishioners want is to improve their passage from north to south across the road.

asked the Minister of Transport when the work on the motorway south of Bristol will commence.

It is too early to say, A draft scheme for the length of the M.5 motorway from the Filton By-Pass to the River Avon will be published this month and one for the continuation southwards to East Brent later this year. Start of work will depend on completion of the statutory processes and on the availability of funds.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the time is coming when the balance will have to be redressed from a concentration on motorway requirements into the centre of the country to improving communications with outlying regions where there is unemployment, where the agricultural industry needs better communications and where the British industrialist, I hope, seeks to go for his holidays?

That is a point of view and one which we always take account of.

Will my hon. Friend remember, in considering priorities in this matter, that Cornwall is primarily an industrial county and not a holiday area?

asked the Minister of Transport if he will consult the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police in an effort to prevent the continued growth of lorry parking in residential roads and streets of the London and Great London area.

We are already, consulting the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, as well as some of the local authorities and other bodies chiefly concerned with this problem. More lorry parks are needed. Five were opened last year in London, and more are planned. The police encourage drivers to use the off-street parks that exist instead of parking on streets where they may inconvenience traffic or residents.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the feeling that the police turn a blind eye to this problem because they are only too glad to get the lorries off the main roads? Will he also bear in mind that very good residential roads are being damaged as a result and that residents are having their sleep disturbed night after night?

We are well aware of this problem and have been in close touch with the police, the local authorities and other bodies about it for some time. Of course, there is no easy or quick answer except the provision of off-street parks on a large scale. We will do all we can to ensure that this is brought about.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in some constituencies in London as many as 300 lorries are parking at night and that the disturbance to residents is quite incredible? Will he see what needs to be done, and, if necessary, bring in legislation to deal with this problem, which is getting beyond control?

I am advised that legislation is not really the answer, since existing powers of local authorities are quite adequate to deal with the matter. It is a pity, for instance, that Bermondsey Borough Council would not acquire a site which would have provided a lorry park in that area, where the problem is so acute, as the hon. Gentleman knows.

asked the Ministry of Transport (1) whether he proposes to authorise the construction of the link between M.62 and Trafford Park as recommended in the South-East Lancashire and North-East Cheshire Highway Plan; and when the work will be begun;

This highway plan, which was prepared by a committee of the surveyors and engineers of the highway authorities concerned, is at present being considered by those authorities. We must await their recommendations for a phased long-term programme of road improvements for the area as a whole before we can say whether these particular schemes should be undertaken.

Is it not a fact that we have put forward definite recommendations for these roads? Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that the heavy concentration of industry in Trafford Park urgently needs a connection to the M.62? Is he also aware that the bringing of the oil terminal to Carrington means that heavy tankers go through the residential quarter of Urmston? Is he further aware that these roads are built only for light traffic? Will he see that these recommendations are carried out as quickly as possible?

We are well aware of all those points. On receipt of the Report, discussions will be necessary and the various authorities will have to agree on a programme. Meanwhile our divisional road engineer has agreed to annual programmes totalling about £4 million.

What does my hon. and gallant Friend mean by receipt of the Report? It has been issued and contains recommendations.

As I have said, the recommendations are being considered by the authorities themselves. Perhaps my hon. Friend did not quite hear me. The Report was prepared by their surveyors and engineers.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the importance to the British shipping industry of the recent variations in international maritime law and conventions relating to flags of convenience; if he will draw these to the attention of ship-owners, sailors and all who are engaged in the industry, for their guidance; and if he will make a statement.

I assume that the hon. and learned Member is referring to the recent coming into force of the 1958 Convention on the High Seas, Article 5 of which deals with flags of convenience. Unfortunately, although they signed the Convention, none of the countries usually described as flag of convenience countries has as yet ratified it. I do not think that any further statement would be useful at the moment.

Does not the Minister realise that it would be greatly in the interests of international trade, industry and commerce if he could induce the various other competing fleets to agree to some kind of co-ordination so that they all have the same rule of conduct?

We much appreciate that. That is one of the objects of the Convention.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps are being taken to implement the recommendations of the Rochdale Report; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he proposes to take to improve dock facilities in relation to export prospects, in view of the breakdown of Common Market negotiations.

I propose, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, to make a statement about the Rochdale Report at the end of Questions.

asked the Minister of Transport how many shipbuilding berths are unoccupied on the Clyde; and what steps he proposes to take to bring these berths into use.

At the end of January, 60 berths were unoccupied in the Clyde shipyards. But as was pointed out in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member on 4th July last, this is not a true measure of idle capacity because modern techniques have diminished the number of berths needed for a given output.

Is the Minister aware that over 6,000 shipyard workers on the Clyde are unemployed, compared with 3,000 12 months ago, which represents a doubling of the number of unemployed? Will he take, not negative measures to frustrate the shipbuilding industry, but positive steps to encourage the replacement of older vessels and help the exports of the shipbuilding industry? Furthermore, will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give a general directive to merchant shippers that if they want a price for a tanker, it is not advisable to telephone the chairman of the company and ask him what is his price for a 55,000-ton tanker but rather to give specifications and ask for a proper tender?

I do not accept the imputation that the Government have done anything to restrict shipbuilding orders. On the contrary, we have done our utmost to encourage them. But I am well aware of, and I agree with the hon. Member about, the serious position in the shipbuilding industry. The various remedies which the hon. Member has suggested are, as I have said once before, under active consideration.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that only yesterday it was announced that various shipbuilding orders had been placed in foreign yards? This discloses a serious situation. Many of us, on both sides, do not believe that this can be simply bad workmanship, bad costing or bad prices on our side. Will the Minister undertake to have a detailed inquiry made as to how this situation has arisen and to report back to the House at a suitable moment?

This matter is being gone into. The short answer, however, to my hon. Friend's supplementary question is that the prices at which these orders have been accepted are certainly below anything that could be approached in this country. We are going into the matter.

asked the Minister of Transport which of the Clyde shipbuilding firms are in a position to build the hull and machinery for propulsion of nuclear-powered ships; and whether he will now start consultations with a view to speeding up plans for the laying down of the proposed nuclear-powered ship.

The hulls could be built by any shipyards which are capable of building the corresponding conventional ships. Any shipbuilding firm which manufactures turbines would be able to build all the machinery except the reactors.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that a report is circulating that no consultation was held with the Yarrow Admiralty Committee on the Clyde, a research organisation set up by the Galbraith Committee to examine marine propulsion, and that no consultation whatever has taken place? The situation is ridiculous when this institution on the Clyde has been established to consider nuclear propulsion but is never consulted when the Government decide to go in for nuclear-propelled ships.

This establishment—Y.A.R.D., as it is called—concerns itself chiefly with the lay-out of ships' engines and propelling machinery rather than design. It has done a lot of work on the suggested layout of nuclear-propelled ships with which we are fully familiar.

Would not the Minister agree that the reactors which have been chosen for our first nuclear-propelled merchant ship exist only on the drawing board and might be subject to a good deal of modification before they are built? In view of the widespread controversy which has arisen in this matter, does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think that a comprehensive statement should now be given to show why the Government prefer the nuclear reactor system of the Atomic Energy Authority rather than other systems? Surely, the Government must have a good reason for reaching this decision.

Any such detailed statement would fall within the responsibility of my noble Friend the Minister for Science. The reactor, however, goes a little beyond the drawing board stage. A certain amount of experimental work has been done on parts of it. In that respect, it is exactly the same as its rivals. The only reactors at present in existence are the types used in warships, which would be totally uneconomic for merchant vessels.