asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he will move to set up a select committee to inquire into relations between the Press and Members of the House of Commons.

No. I do not think this would be appropriate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that recent events have not significantly improved the relationship between Members of Parliament and the Press Lobby? Is he further aware that this relationship is built on mutual trust and that its breakdown can only harm Parliament? Is he aware that a free Press, with all its shortcomings, is often the only safeguard of the liberty of the individual? In these circumstances, will my right hon. Friend have another look at this question and consider whether he ought not also to have another look even at the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921.

I am the last person to underrate what is at stake here, but it does no justice to the good sense of journalists or Members of Parliament to suggest that there is a crisis in our relationship.

asked the Minister without Portfolio what steps he is taking to co-ordinate publicity activities abroad among industrialists about the potentialities of expansion in development districts.

asked the Minister without Portfolio in view of the breakdown of the negotiations for British entry into the European Economic Community, whether he will increase the amount of publicity designed to attract foreign industrial investment in areas of high unemployment in the United Kingdom.

I have arranged for a study to be made of the means by which home and overseas publicity for the development districts might be co-ordinated. When that study is completed, I shall consider, in consultation with the other Ministers concerned, what further steps may be necessary.

Has the right hon. Gentleman no information about the success of this in the past? Is he aware that there is a feeling that there is far too much provision of offices with dusty leaflets and information and too little active pursuit of the kind of business we want to ensure that everyone knows the opportunities that are available in places such as Scotland?

I have been looking into the arrangements made by all the development districts. It is very important that we should make the best possible use of the resources that they have for making their needs and their assets known. I have that particularly in mind in relation to Scotland.

Can my right hon. Friend say what co-ordination he has with the publicity put out by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board?

At the moment none.

asked the Minister without Portfolio what liaison he has with the British Industries Development Office in New York on the matter of publicising industrial facilities available in areas of high unemployment in the United Kingdom.

None directly, Sir. The British Industrial Development Office in New York is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who is of course in close touch with its work.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that this could be a very useful function to be fulfilled by his Ministry? When he thinks of the efforts which might be made, will not the right hon. Gentleman keep this type of thing very much in mind, remembering also that, since in many ways our own industrialists are failing to develop these areas, we should welcome industrialists from elsewhere?

I am fully aware of that, and I will bear it in mind in relation to the Answer which I gave to an earlier Question.

asked the Minister of Health if, in view of the delays in the development of the Winchester and Basingstoke hospitals, it is still his policy to curtail the services offered by the Alton General Hospital.

Yes, but only as concentration and development of services elsewhere take place.

Has my right hon. Friend therefore no plans to close the hospital in the near future?

A new hospital is to be provided at Basingstoke and a substantially rebuilt one at Winchester. Planning is proceeding satisfactorily. The new hospital at Basingstoke will take care of the expanding population in the area, but until it is available the Alton hospitals will provide some services for this area.

asked the Minister of Health what guidance he has sent to local health authorities for the interpretation, on a national basis, of paragraph 3 of his Circular 1222 of 1950, regarding expenses of attending hospitals.

The guidance to local health authorities is contained in Circular 30/51, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is an impression that this Statutory Instrument is being interpreted in some parts of the country too strictly, consequently putting more work on the ambulance service, which is the responsibility of the county and the rates?

I was not so aware, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing the matter to my attention. The position is that local health authorities have a duty, under the 1946 Act, to provide ambulance transport free of charge where necessary. Local authorities have been encouraged to take a reasonably wide view of their responsibility for providing ambulance transport. In my right hon. Friend's view, this responsibility is not narrowly restricted to medical necessity and he believes that the needs of the patients should always be put first.

asked the Minister of Health what is the present establishment figure for nursing staff in hospitals managed by the Greenwich and Deptford Hospital Management Committee; and to what extent the present nursing staff falls short of that establishment.

There is no recognised establishment for nursing staff.

Is it not about time there was one? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in one of the Deptford and Greenwich hospitals recently a ward has had to be closed because of the shortage of nurses? This shortage is caused by the regional hospital board giving instructions that recruiting should stop. Will not the hon. Gentleman have a word with his right hon. Friend and demand now that the hospital management committees and the regional board should establish staff requirements and that they should be fully and adequately maintained?

As to establishments generally, I think there is some sort of misunderstanding about this. Existing establishments are not based on universally applied criteria. Recruitment hitherto has been on the basis of what the hospitals could get rather than on what they require. This is reasonable so long as there is a shortage of nurses, but the steady improvement in recruitment means that the boards must exercise some control over the rate of recruitment and the deployment of staff.

As to the latter part of the supplementary question, the board has always been ready to consider with hospital management committees any problems arising from the fixing of establishments. They have already agreed to a number of concessions in the case of the hospital in question, and I will give the hon. Gentleman details if he would like them.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that the time has now come when he and his right hon. Friend might offer some general guidance to hospital authorities about appropriate establishments for different types of hospitals? I am aware that there are difficulties in this, but is not anything better than leaving the fixing of establishments to the individual hospital, and then not to have them recognised either by the regional board or by the Minister of Health?

Yes, this matter is very much under consideration at the moment.

asked the Minister of Health what plans he has for the future of Storthes Hall Hospital, Huddersfield.

To improve conditions as the number of patients declines.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that uncertainty about the future life of this hospital has been causing a good deal of concern to the staff there, that the money that has recently been spent on the hospital has made most of it extremely efficient, and could we know that there will be a use for it for the next quarter of a century?

I do not think anybody could put a time limit of that kind on any hospital in the country, however efficiently it is run. No decision will be taken to close this hospital for some years to come, and then it would only be taken after the most detailed consideration and consultation.

asked the Minister of Health what proposals he has for using or disposing of the land or buildings which together constituted the Southern Hospital, Dartford.

Part is required for Mabledon Hospital and a new trunk road. The rest will be sold.

asked the Minister of Health why the costs of salaries of some full-time architects and engineers employed by regional hospital boards will in future be charged to capital funds.

Their work is wholly or mainly on capital schemes.

Is this not a subtle way of decreasing the amount of money available for capital building? Is the hon. Gentleman proposing to extend this idea to administrative staff and clerks as a logical result?

No, the hon. Gentleman is completely misinformed. Appropriate adjustments will be made to the boards' capital and revenue allocations for next year. The change does not mean that the amount of money available for hospital planning and building will be reduced. The total amount which it is proposed to provide for hospital expenditure in 1963–64 is not affected. As regards current expenditure, all other elements of true revenue expenditure will continue to expand as planned.

asked the Minister of Health what improvements in the postgraduate training of doctors employed in the non-teaching provincial hospitals he proposes to effect in the next two years.

Extension of the schemes now being developed by regional hospital boards.

Is not this almost entirely dependent on voluntary money? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Porritt Committee on Medical Aid to Overseas Countries particularly criticised post-graduate training of overseas doctors and, by implication, British doctors in non-teaching British hospitals?

I am glad to recognise that the schemes being worked out by many hospital boards are enjoying the assistance of the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust. The development of those schemes will indicate the directions of future advance.

asked the Minister of Health what further investigation he has made into the evidence of cross-infection in hospitals; and what recommendations to avoid cross-infection have recently been made to hospital boards.

Detailed advice was given in 1959; the action taken by hospital authorities is studied by my Department.

Does not the Minister appreciate that there is still considerable disquiet in many quarters about the incidence of cross-infection and a suspicion that not all the facts are revealed? Will he make special inquiries to ascertain what is the incidence of cross-infection in certain hospitals, with a view to taking more drastic measures?

All hospitals should have their own machinery to watch and control cross-infection. My professional advisers are in touch with hospital authorities and are watching the implementation of these measures.

asked the Minister of Health when is the estimated operational date for the 139 maternity beds scheduled in the hospital plan for Good Hope Hospital, Sutton Coldfield; and whether this estimated date has been revised since the publication of the hospital plan.

During 1966. The answer to the second part of the Question is "No, Sir".

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is cause for a little anxiety because of the build-up in the arrival of overspill population from Birmingham? Does he know that other Departments have found it necessary to review their plans at fairly short intervals? Will he look into the matter again and see whether there is a strong case for expediting the building of this wing, particularly having regard to the document I have in my possession from the hospital management authorities concerned to the effect that they could start in the spring of this year?

We will look into what the hon. Gentleman suggests. I take it that he is referring specifically to the Good Hope maternity unit. This scheme is shown in the hospital plan as a major scheme expected to start before 1965–66. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that it is now at an advanced planning stage. The board hopes to begin building work in 1964.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement on the future of the present regulation governing the educational facilities for cadet nurses.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will now make a statement on the conditions of employment of nursing cadets.

All nursing cadets are allowed one day's educational release without abatement of pay. I am authorising hospital authorities to allow a second day's release without abatement of pay for one academic year to nursing cadets not having the minimum educational qualifications which were recently prescribed for student nurses by the General Nursing Council.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that statement, but I reserve my judgment on whether it is entirely satisfactory until I have had a chance to consult the appropriate organisations. Will my right hon. Friend, in future, occasionally do things which are right without waiting for pressure from the House of Commons? It would give very great satisfaction to the nursing profession if he did.

I often do, but I would not deny that I stand to gain from advice and help which I sometimes receive from my hon. Friend and other hon. Members.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for this belated concession, but will he tell us what percentage of nursing cadets will be covered by it and what percentage may still continue to have to make some deductions for necessary educational training from their already inadequate salaries?

For necessary educational training, none should need to obtain any release without pay; but I understand that about two-thirds of nursing cadets are without the educational qualifications prescribed by the General Nursing Council to which my Answer referred.

I welcome the slight step forward which the Minister has made, but why is it limited to one academic year?

Because I am advised—and this is a matter on which I must be guided by advice—that nursing cadets lacking this qualification should reasonably be able to acquire it if, during their period as nursing cadets, they have one academic year with two days' study a week for the purpose.

Will the right hon. Gentleman throw a little more light on the educational activities of the one-third of nursing cadets who will not be covered by this concession? Are they, in his view, wrongly seeking extra educational training? If not, why will not he help them by extending the concession to cover them?

This is an exceptional arrangement which is, in my view, justified by the educational qualifications now required by the General Nursing Council. It seems to follow from that logically that nursing cadets should have the opportunity, if they lack those qualifications, to obtain them.

In view of his very interesting reply, will my right hon. Friend say whose advice he is seeking about the one academic year?

I am guided by the advice which I received from the education authorities.

asked the Minister of Health how many members of the local authority in Bristol now serve on the South-Western Regional Hospital Board.

None, Sir.

That is the reply I expected. Is the Minister aware—if he is not, will he make himself aware—that prior to the introduction of the National Health Service five hospitals in Bristol were owned by the local authority, the administration of them was carried out by members of the local authority's health committee, and, as a result, many members of the local authority had a very wide experience of administration in these matters? Why is it that they seem to be winkled out or are becoming winkled out, especially—so it would appear—if they happen to be members of the Labour Party? Is not the Minister aware, also, that there is a strong and growing suspicion that appointments to this board and to the management committees of local hospitals is now becoming very much a matter of Tory prestige and patronage? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] A very good speech, and I shall make a longer one if I get the opportunity. Will the Minister himself make inquiries into the situation not only in Bristol but in the south-west of England?

This Question relates to the regional hospital board, to which I make the appointments, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman, since I make them, that there is no ground for the opinions to which he has given expression. Among the membership of this board I have to arrange for the balanced representation of all the interests and points of view in the whole of the south-western area, and no fewer than eight of the twenty-nine members are connected with Bristol.

asked the Minister of Health if he is satisfied that proper consultations have been held by the South-Western Regional Hospital Board, under Part II of the Third Schedule to the National Health Service Act, 1946, with the Bristol City Council before appointing members to hospital management committees in the city; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir.

Can the Minister say why, as a result of that consultation, the nominees of the Bristol local authority have been rejected? I have read the Schedule to the Act, and it appears that these consultations should be made in connection with the management committees of local hospitals. There appear to be no appointments made as a result of these consultations.

I am informed that members recommended by Bristol City Council are serving on all the hospital management committees in the city area and will be doing so in the coming year.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answers to this Question and to Question No. 28, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment and provide more evidence.

asked the Minister of Health what arrangements he is making to increase provision of maternity beds in hospitals in the Greater London area.

Besides 10 new contractual beds and 49 additional beds in existing hospital accommodation, new building will provide a further 50.

Can the Minister say whether the number of beds which he has just mentioned and the nine which were provided in the last six months are part of the hundred which the Minister promised me last May would be provided in the Greater London area? If this is so, it is a pathetic number in view of the fact that a number of hospitals are being forced, or expect to be forced, to give up their existing beds because of lack of finance. When is the hon. Gentleman going to tackle this problem with the urgency that it deserves?

The hon. Lady is quite right. The numbers that I have mentioned are part of the 100 beds to which she refers. There has been a delay due to weather conditions in providing the 20 beds at Lewisham. I must add that although conditions in London are exceptional for a number of obvious reasons 80 to 85 per cent, of births take place in hospitals, and this is well above the percentage in the rest of the country.

Is the Minister not aware that a miscalculation appears to have crept into the hospital plan about maternity beds in London because those in teaching hospitals are calculated to serve the London area, whereas, of course, they serve a much wider area than that, and will this be put right in revised versions of the plan?

I should like to have notice of that.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered the resolution sent to him last January by the National Health Service Executive Council for the borough of Ipswich, expressing concern at the inadequacies of general hospital facilities in Ipswich, emphasising the urgency of the position and expressing the opinion that the proposed new Ipswich District Hospital should be commenced forthwith; and what action he proposes to take to deal with the matter, and to expedite the building of the new hospital.

Yes, Sir; the regional hospital board is in touch with the executive council on this matter.

Is the Minister aware that there is very great public concern both in Ipswich and in Suffolk generally regarding the shortage of acute beds, the long waiting list, the lack of geriatric facilities and the inferiority of general hospital equipment? In those circumstances, does he not agree that it is a matter of urgency to commence the building of the new hospital?

The regional hospital board is, of course, aware of all this and is making its dispositions in the region as a whole. The need to plan a new district general hospital does not make it possible for it to be commenced forthwith, but the building of additional geriatric accommodation and other improvements at the Heath Road Wing of the Ipswich and East Suffolk hospital is likely to start early in 1964. The board also expects to achieve a considerable improvement in operating facilities by the greater use of the facilities of some other hospitals in the area.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication when the building of the new hospital will begin?

The board told the executive council that it hopes that construction will start in 1969 and that acute beds will be brought as far forward as possible.

asked the Minister of Health what action he is taking to promote dental health, particularly among children.

The promotion of health education and of fluoridation. I am sending my hon. Friend copies of recent circulars giving details of the steps which local health and education authorities are encouraged to take.

While thanking my hon. Friend for promising to send me the literature he mentioned, does he realise that this country consumes per head almost more sugar than any other country in the world, and that our younger children seem to be sucking and licking and chewing their teeth away? Could he do something more positive than sending me this literature? My teeth are fine.

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the state of the dental health of our children, and I am glad that she has drawn attention to the matter. I think it would be best if she awaited the material which I am sending her before forming a judgment. A great deal of education in this field is going on at the moment with some success in my hon. Friend's own county of Hampshire.

Is my hon. Friend right in this policy of continued fluoridation of water? Is it not wrong that we should be forced to take drugs, or more medicaments, whether we wish to have them or not, without any alternative?

Fluoride is not a drug. Fluoridation is simply the process of adding to water something which is already present there. In my own County of Essex, far example, there are people who, throughout their lives, and their ancestors for generations before them, have been drinking up to five times the amount of fluoride that has been recommended. Fluoridation of water supplies has the effect of halving the incidence of dental decay in children. I cannot think of any measure of public health more beneficial than that.

asked the Minister of Health what further advice he has received from the sub-committee of the Standing Medical Advisory Committee that is considering the problems of drug control; and if he will make a statement.

None as yet.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have all been extremely patient in waiting for this report? Can he now give some indication when he is likely to be able to give a statement to the House?

Not a precise indication, but I understand the sub-committee is making good progress.

asked the Minister of Health what assessment of the merits and demerits of an appointments system in general practice has been made by his Department; and if he will provide incentives for family doctors to see patients by appointment.

I agree with the views of the 1954 Committee of the Central Health Services Council on general practice.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has not taken us very much further than 1954? As the situation is at the moment, there is a positive disincentive to doctors to have an appointments system in general practice because the expense factor weighs against this kind of approach? Will the Minister reconsider this matter with a view to saving time of patients and encouraging good general practice?

The matter has gone considerably further since 1954 because many practices have successfully introduced appointments systems since then, and I regard the improvement in the service which follows as the major incentive in this matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the better features of the National Health Scheme is the joining together of family doctors in partnership, and where they have got that partnership I find that at least one of the partners is usually prepared to give appointments?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we learn from the tape that the Prime Minister is going to announce, in answer to a Written Question this afternoon, a substantial increase in doctors' salaries? In negotiating this increase with the profession, will he consider the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) about the present method of allocating practice expenses, which militates against those doctors who want to give a high standard of service to their patients?

I think we had better await the terms of the report.

Has the Minister any knowledge of the actual number of practices that are using an appointments system? Has his Ministry made a complete examination of how this has worked out in practice? Is he issuing any advice to other group practices or, as the hon. and gallant Member for Eye (Sir H. Harrison) said, partnerships, which would like to employ this system?

I am sure that it is widely known that this is favoured. Indeed, this was indicated when the 1954 Report was issued. I have not precise figures, but it has been and is spreading in the National Health Service.

asked the Minister of Health under what authority he has undertaken to indemnify local authorities and water undertakers in the event of court proceedings with regard to the powers of water undertakers to permit the addition of sodium fluoride to the water supply.

My general duty under the National Health Service Act, 1946.

Is the Minister aware that, if it is legal to add to the water supply sodium fluoride which is many times more toxic than the natural calcium fluoride found in natural water supplies, there is no need for this indemnity? On the other hand, if it is not legal so to do, is not he putting himself in a dangerous position by appearing to put him- self above the law, which is a very serious position for a Minister of the Crown?

The advice I have received is that this is lawful, but, as there is a possibility of proceedings, I considered it to be part of my duty under the Act to facilitate the introduction of fluoridation by the offer of the indemnity.

asked the Minister of Health what further action he proposes to take in order that the posters published by his Department in pursuance of the declared policy of Her Majesty's Government concerning smoking and lung cancer shall be exhibited on advertising sites.

I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) on 28th January.

Is this not an intolerable situation where Government policy is flouted by the joint censorship committee of the British poster industry, and cannot the Minister consult his colleagues to see about having some response to this by perhaps withdrawing poster advertising from other departments to make some sanction on the industry in view of its intransigent action? Is the Minister aware that the reason it gives is the failure to prove the fact of the causation of cancer by smoking, and, if that is so, what justification would it have in claiming that "Guinness is good for you", because it has no proof of that either?

I am in communication with the committee and I must agree that the reason it gives is a remarkably silly one, and that is that there is a difference between the proposition that cigarette smoking is a cause of lung cancer and that cigarettes cause lung cancer. It is my hope to bring them to see this.

Why is it taking so long to conduct these negotiations upon which the right hon. Gentleman has been engaged to my knowledge for many weeks, if not months? Is it not quite a scandalous state of affairs that a private organisation should take upon itself to censor what the Government see fit to publish?

It is a matter for the poster owners how they conduct their business. I am in communication with this committee, and I have nothing further to add at the moment.

While expressing every sympathy with those who wish to reduce the effects of smoking so far as lung cancer is concerned, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what with attempts to stop smoking, what with some people being determined to stop drinking, and what with the curtailment of supplementary questions, life is hardly worth living?

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to overcome this difficulty by buying some time on commercial television for anti-smoking advertisements?

This is a responsibility of the local health authorities as part of their health education duties. It is their channels which I am seeking to broaden by my negotiations with this committee.

asked the Minister of Health why he is not prepared to extend the scope of the domiciliary services to cover the provision of constant attendance for poliomyelitis victims dependent upon an iron lung and living at home.

The duty of providing constant attendance where this is required is most efficiently and economically performed through the hospital service.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unfortunately it cannot be provided by hospitals, and does he not agree that this would be quite apart from the benefit in human terms to the patient, and probably a much more economical way of looking after these victims than keeping them in hospital? Will he consider whether something can be done about this either through the hospital authorities or through the local health authorities?

This is a matter that I have looked at very carefully, but I must say that I cannot agree that for local health authorities to seek to provide constant skilled nursing attention could he an effective use of the resources which they deploy.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that National Health Service Executive Councils vary considerably in their judgment on applications for the replacement of lost or damaged dentures; what are the general principles that determine when careless-less justifies full charge for denture replacement; and to what extent these apply to dentures lost on a sea voyage or similar misfortune.

No, Sir; the degree of any financial hardship; wholly.

Does this not indicate a rather unsatisfactory position? Is the Minister not aware that in a large number of cases there are those who have lost their dentures under unfortunate circumstances, such as illustrated in the last sentence of my Question, and they have not been able to get new dentures save by paying the full amount? In those circumstances, would he not agree that, as it is most difficult to define or to prove carelessness, it would be much simpler to arrange that the application for new dentures should not be made within a certain time, unless under exceptional circumstances?

I do not think that this would be either a reasonable or a fair way of dealing with the matter. Loss or damage due to accidental causes must be reasonably established to the satisfaction of the executive council. Where it is not established but financial hardship would arise the executive council has discretion.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has any information as to either the number or the percentage of rejections of claims of this type?

Not without notice. There is no appeal on this to me; it is a matter for the executive council.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state the number of those National Health Service Hospitals, and their location, in which research into the causes of migraine is being carried out.

Clinical research and trials are in progress at the National Hospital, King's College Hospital and Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital in London and at the Birmingham and Midland Eye Hospital; basic research into the cause of migraine is for the Medical Research Council.

While that answer is welcome so far as it goes, does the hon. Gentleman realise that the great mass of the general practitioners can only provide symptomatic treatment for this affliction, and can he tell me what steps are being taken to evolve from the research that is now going on a curative treatment, and if this is being made widely known among the medical profession?

The Medical Research Council does not come within the sphere of my right hon. Friend's responsibility, and I cannot answer questions on that. Investigations into this affliction have been going on for a good many years. If anything is holding up research it is not lack of money but the lack of a positive lead. I cannot pronounce on what treatment a doctor can or cannot give. All I can say is that advice and treatment are available under the National Health Service from general practitioners and where necessary from general physicians and neurologists. Headache clinics are provided al the four hospitals I have already mentioned.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether those carrying out these researches will be in contact with the Putney Migraine Clinic? Why is not some research being made into this matter in the north of England and on the North-East Coast? Birmingham is in the Midlands.

I am confident that those engaged on this research, as one would expect in any kind of medical research, are in touch with what is going on at particular establishments.

Since the hon. Gentleman indicated that money was not a difficulty in this case, will he try to extend the research which is going on in certain hospitals to more of the hospitals under the National Health Service by creating units for this purpose?

The hon. Gentleman is going rather wide of the Question, but I have no reason to believe that if any promising line developed the money or the facilities would be lacking. I am advised that the difficulty here is that there has been a lack of a positive lead for research workers to follow.

asked the Minister of Labour how many school leavers are registered as unemployed in Coventry; and what action he is taking to find them suitable work.

Ten on 11th March. The Youth Employment Service is making every effort to find suitable employment for them.

Is not the problem of juvenile unemployment in Coventry very serious? Is it not the case that since last year it has virtually doubled? In those circumstances, would not the Minister for Science do better to apply himself to the problem of involuntary leisure among the young rather than give them pep talks about recreation?

It is true that unemployment among young people in Coventry has risen in the last year. It is satisfactory to note, however, that there were 805 Christmas school leavers of whom only 10 are now unemployed, and that no Easter or summer school leavers were registered in the middle of March.

asked the Minister of Labour how many immigrant trainees from the Commonwealth are undergoing training and retraining in his Department's training centres in the current year.

No separate records are kept of Commonwealth immigrants accepted for training in Government training centres.

asked the Minister of Labour what advice is given by his Department to Commonwealth Governments on the number of vacancies for employment in the United Kingdom, the types of employment available and opportunities for training.

The advice of the Ministry of Labour on employment and training matters is always available to any Commonwealth Government which requests it. Information about the number of vacancies outstanding published by the Department monthly is sent to all Commonwealth High Commissions.

In view of the existence of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act on the Statute Book, can the Parliamentary Secretary give an assurance that everything is done to ensure that Commonwealth immigrants have access to training so as to make themselves more fitted to take part in industry in this country?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that Commonwealth immigrants are treated in exactly the same way in training as every other citizen in this country.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that they are not given priority over our own people?

I thought I said that they are given exactly the same treatment. I can assure my hon. Friend of that.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the growth of long-term unemployment in certain trades in the North and East Midlands, notably the hosiery and knitwear industry, he will establish an industrial training centre in the Nottingham area, and make it available to men and women who have become, or are likely soon to become, redundant in their own trades.

My right hon. Friend is considering the need for expanded training facilities in the country generally and he will bear the needs of the Nottingham area in mind.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary ask his right hon. Friend to do something seriously and urgently about this matter in view of the fact that unemployment in the hosiery industry has trebled in the Midlands area over the last year? Does it make sense to expect men to make a return journey of 100 miles in order to get industrial retraining? What does the Minister intend to do in the near future about this?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. It is fair to point out that the level of unemployment in the Nottingham area is below the national average. That must be borne in mind.

Will the hon. Gentleman note what I said in my supplementary question, namely, that in the hosiery and knitwear industry unemployment has trebled over the past year and that thousands of workers who are now on short time expect to become redundant in the next few months? This is a very serious and urgent matter. Will the hon. Gentleman do something about it quickly?

I said that I noted what the hon. Gentleman said. I have now noted again what he has said.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the total number unemployed for over six weeks, the total number unemployed for less than six weeks, and the total number on short time in the furniture industry, expressed as percentages of the total employed in that industry.

I regret that the information asked for in the first part of the Question is not available. The estimated number of operatives in the furniture industry working short time in mid-January was 12·4 per cent, of the total number of operatives in the industry.

In view of that very high percentage, can my hon. Friend say whether there is any likelihood of the situation improving in the comparatively near future? Secondly, is there any evidence that a number of the skilled craftsmen who are unemployed are being absorbed by other industries?

I could not answer the last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question without notice, but I should not have thought so. On the first part, as my hon. Friend will know, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade made an Order, which came into operation on 13th March, relaxing certain restrictions in the hire purchase of furniture. I understand that the industry believes that these relaxations will result in increased sales of furniture. Therefore, one would hope that the situation will improve.

asked the Minister of Labour what recent consultations he has had on proposals to reduce unemployment in the north-east of England.

My right hon. Friend is in constant touch with the other Ministers concerned with this problem. In addition, he has had consultations with employers' organisations and trade unions about the expansion of training facilities in the North-East which is essential if future industrial development in the area is not to be hampered by shortages of skilled labour.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, despite the drop in the figures of temporary unemployment disclosed last week, basic unemployment in the North-East continues to rise? Therefore, can he say when we may expect the much publicised plan from Lord Hailsham? Can we expect this to be put into effect in the very near future, because the problem is serious?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman appreciates that, apart from the general measures taken to stimulate the economy as a whole, a considerable number of steps have already been taken aimed particularly at improving the situation in the North-East. The hon. Gentleman also knows the very active work undertaken by my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the areas where help could be given without any large contribution having to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in British shipping? Can he say whether the Government intend to make a statement on the scrap and build policy in the very near future?

That supplementary question is rather outside the realm of my responsibility.

Since the Prime Minister appointed Lord Hailsham to look after the affairs of the North-East and asked him to present a definite plan for the area, can the hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my supplementary question and tell me when we can expect to have this plan?

I cannot give the exact date of when my noble Friend's plan will be ready, but in view of the great urgency he has shown throughout, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it will not be long.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement about the rupture of diplomatic relations between Her Majesty's Government and the Somali Republic.

Yes, Sir. On 18th March the Somali Prime Minister handed to our Ambassador a note informing him that the Somali Government had decided to break off diplomatic relations with the United Kingdom because of the recent decision to create a Seventh Region in Kenya consisting of the Eastern part of the Northern Frontier District. This was designed to give the Kenya Somalis greater opportunity for the expression of their racial and religious identity. The Somali Government apparently take the view that this decision is final. The Somali Government have been informed that the decision is not a final determination. As my right honourable Friend the Commonwealth Secretary pointed out in his statement of 12th March, Her Majesty's Government, while not wishing to exclude future consideration of any method of settling this problem, did not think that at this juncture a more radical solution would be justified.

I share my right hon. Friend's regret, but would not he agree that it is equally regrettable that we have been put in the position of having to deny self-determination to the Somali areas of Kenya? While the final decision must be made by the Kenya Government, is it not clear that it will be impossible to keep those areas inside Kenya against the wishes of the inhabitants?

As I said in my Answer, we do not wish to exclude future consideration of any method of settling this problem. Naturally, we greatly regret that the Somali Government should have broken off relations with Her Majesty's Government.

By not grasping this nettle now, are not we leaving a built-in cause of war between Kenya and the Somali Republic?

We shall do our utmost to find a solution to the problem together with the Kenya Government. That is a quite separate question from the specific Question with which I am dealing, namely, the question of our relations with Somalia.

Is the Minister aware that one of the problems of the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century was that political frontiers were drawn through tribes and other organisations in Africa completely contrary to the natural and native life of these people? Is it not time that European Powers looked at this problem as in the present case?

We are well aware of the difficulties involved in this type of problem. It is, however, difficult to find a solution because of the many different factors involved. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations explained to the House that he did not think that a more radical solution was possible at this juncture.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what official British proposals on North Atlantic Treaty Organisation defence and political policy were put forward by the Foreign Secretary during his recent discussions in Paris.

I would ask the hon. Gentleman to await the statement on this subject that I shall be making in the House tomorrow.

Why must we wait until tomorrow in view of the fact that the speech of the Foreign Secretary, which was made last week, has already been fairly fully reported in the Press? Will the right hon. Gentleman at least give the House the assurance that it is not the intention of the Government that British foreign policy, as well as British defence policy, shall in future be made in secret conclave at the N.A.T.O. Alliance?

There is no question of British foreign policy being made in secret conclave. As I have already explained to the House, however, there are certain times when it is necessary to have confidential discussions with one's allies. If the hon. Gentleman will await my statement tomorrow, perhaps he will be able to ask a supplementary question about it.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what relationship Her Majesty's Government envisages for the future between the United Kingdom and the Sheikdoms of the Persian Gulf.

The Sheikdoms of the Persian Gulf, Bahrain, Qatar and the Trucial States, are independent Sheikdoms, having special treaty relations with the United Kingdom governing their international relations. Their relationship with Her Majesty's Government could be reviewed and adjusted when required, but the Rulers have expressed no desire that this should be done. Meanwhile, Her Majesty's Government's obligation to protect these territories remains.

Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that these treaties are now dangerously out of date? Will he institute a special and thorough review of our whole responsibilities and political position in the Gulf, otherwise we shall let ourselves in for a great deal of avoidable trouble and embarrassment in the near future?

I do not share the hon. Member's view about the nature of these treaties. The situation in the Gulf is, of course, under the constant attention of Her Majesty's Government. Kuwait, for example, developed through a gradual process to complete independence, which culminated in the exchange of letters on 19th June, 1961. That is an example of how the situation has developed. I assure the hon. Member and the House that the whole situation in the Gulf is constantly under our attention.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that reply is not satisfactory, that Kuwait is not an analogy, that the other Sheikdoms are in no way comparable and that neither the Sheikdoms nor the policy of Her Majesty's Government appear to be at all viable in the near future?

I gave the example of Kuwait as an instance of a Sheikdom which had developed to complete independence. I am not saying that the other Sheikdoms in the Gulf are capable of doing that. What is necessary is that our policy towards the Sheikdoms should be up to date, and I assure the hon. Member that that is so.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what negotiations have been entered into with the South African Government for the provision of refuelling bases and repair facilities in South Africa for British military aircraft.

These facilities are already available to British service aircraft when required.

Is it not a fact that an extension of these facilities has recently been sought as part of a military deal with the South African Government under which it is to be helped to obtain Buccaneer bombers from this country? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this kind of military deal with South Africa is deeply deplored by all civilised opinion in this country—[HON. MEMBERS "Nonsense."]—which is not happy to see this kind of quid pro quo—bases for Britain against bombers for South Africa—when we know that the armaments which we send there will be used for the oppressive policy of apartheid?

There is to be no question of a military deal of the kind suggested by the hon. Lady.

Is it not the case that while, clearly, we deprecate the internal policy of the South African Government. we have a joint responsibility for the defence of the Southern Atlantic and the Southern Indian Ocean?

I have explained to the House that that is why these facilities are already available.

Will the Lord Privy Seal consider giving us a White Paper setting out details of the arms which have been supplied to the South African Government over the last three years and of any military arrangements that may have been made?

As I think the right hon. Gentleman is aware, details of the sale of arms to particular countries are never published in the form which he suggests.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what reply he, as co-chairman of the 1954 Geneva Conference on Indo-China, proposes to make to the protests sent to him by the Foreign Minister of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam in a Note dated 22nd February, 1963, about the use of American aeroplanes to spray toxic chemicals on the vegetation and rice fields in North Vietnam.

I have received no communication regarding the use of toxic chemicals in North Vietnam. As regards the use of chemical defoliants in South Vietnam, I understand that the Government of North Vietnam has made a number of complaints to the International Control Commission. It is for the Commission to decide whether these complaints fall within its competence.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that over the years since the 1954 Conference hon. Members both sides have complained of what some of us believe to be the Government's lack of acceptance of responsibility as co-chairman of the Geneva Conference? Will the Lord Privy Seal publish for the House reports of the International Control Commission on the conditions which it has found as the result of the use of these toxic chemicals, supplied by the United States, against North Vietnam and the price in vegetation and life and limb to the people of this tragic little country?

I will certainly see what reports are available on the subject from the International Commission. I know that the hon. Member follows these matters closely. He will realise that the purpose of these defoliants is to remove leaves from the trees without damaging the trees or the ground beneath so that the guerillas cannot hide there.

In view of the fact that the Americans have for three years been carrying on an undeclared intervention in the civil war in South Vietnam, employing 12,000 armed men of their own and using methods of which some of us would not approve if they were used in British territories, is it not time that we at least took the step of withdrawing the British Police Mission from Saigon, thus at least relieving ourselves of co-responsibility in this dirty war?

No, Sir, certainly not. The main illusion in the last three years seems to have been that of the hon. Member that North Vietnam had nothing whatever to do with this.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what proposals Her Majesty's Government intend to make to the Eighteen-Nation Disarmament Committee concerning the levels of manpower to be permitted in the armed forces of signatory States at the end of the first and second stages of a treaty for general and complete disarmament.

I have nothing to add to what my hon. Friend told the House on 20th March.

Will the Lord Privy Seal ask his noble Friend to look at this matter again? Does he really think that the present Western proposal is satisfactory when it would mean that at the end of the sixth year of the disarmament treaty the major Powers would still have more men in their forces than Hitler had in the summer of 1939, and that they would be much more powerfully armed?

My noble Friend follows this matter with the closest interest. The right hon. Gentleman knows the actual figures which are involved, but I do not think that this is one of the major problems at present facing us in this particular matter.

Is it not one of the major problems? If there is really no obstacle to agreement on this matter, why cannot we get agreement and at least make a slight step forward? Is it not an extraordinary piece of reasoning to say, as the Minister of State said last week, that because there is no obstacle to agreement, there is no urgency for getting agreement?

If we could get agreement on the other matters, such as the reduction of armaments, verification and peace-keeping, I do not think that the difference which exists concerning the level of forces would prove to be a major obstacle.

Is not manpower an important factor in the conventional forces, in which we say that Russia has great superiority? Since Russia has proposed a much greater reduction than the Western plan, ought we not to consider a compromise which would be in our interests?

It is not so much a question of the actual amount as of the way in which one tackles this problem in the Disarmament Conference. That is the only difference between us.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what protests he has received from any of the breed societies or any other farming body about the importation of Friesian cattle from Holland, one of which was found to be suffering from leptospirosis.

None, Sir.

Does not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary feel that that is rather strange considering what was let loose on his right hon. Friend 18 months ago when a Charollais animal took this disease?

No; I do not think that there is any comparison between the two. In any event, since that happened arrangements have proved so efficient that I think there is no longer any cause for anxiety.

Owing to the most unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply to my supplementary question, I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the low prices being realised for beef, of the size of the subsidy bill and of the high prices being charged to the housewife; and if he will take steps to protect both the British producer and the consumer.

Prices for beef are low and this is affecting the cost of deficiency payments. The producer is, of course, protected by the fatstock guarantee scheme. Retail prices have been reduced in many shops and the opportunity is there for the consumer to take advantage of the low prices.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, for example, in the Louth cattle market on Friday beef was sold at the average price of 100s. cwt. against a guaranteed price of 168s., that the farmers are dissatisfied, and the housewives, who are paying more money for their beef, and have got to find probably £100 million subsidy? Is it not time to do something about it?

My hon. Friend will realise that some of the figures he has given are not exactly accurate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am fully aware of the fact that prices have dropped recently. The fatstock guarantee scheme does not give a guarantee on every individual item sold, but is in general an overall guarantee throughout the year.

In view of what the hon. Gentleman has just said in his reply to his hon. Friend, could he give us the figures? It is extremely difficult to get them from the Minister of Agriculture. They have not been forthcoming. Can we have some real figures about prices?

Prices on the fatstock market dropped to about 120s., on 20th February, and have gone down further since then.

To the housewives?

For the housewife there has been a drop in retail shops varying from 2d. lb. to over 6d. lb.