asked the Minister of Defence what plans have been made for the deployment of the Sergeant missile by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forces.

This information is confidential to N.A.T.O.

As Germany is now buying these missiles from America and has had technicians training there, will the Minister tell the House to what extent German troops are in control of these missile sites in Europe?

That is quite a different question. The Question asked for the deployment of these missiles, which is a confidential matter.

asked the Minister of Defence the total acreage of land retained by all three Services in the constituency of Petersfield.

A total of 7,293 acres.

Does my right hon. Friend keep his extensive estates under review?

If my hon. Friend would like to see me about the details, I should be happy to meet her.

asked the Minister of Defence what discussions have taken place with the Government of the United States of America regarding the establishment of a Polaris submarine base in the waters of Malta; and what information has been given to the Government of Malta on this matter.

None, Sir.

While welcoming that reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has seen the statement from Washington this week that American Polaris submarines are to be stationed in the Mediterranean? Will he give us an assurance that they will not be anchored at Malta without the consent of its Government and Parliament?

That supplementary question is out of order, because the Minister is not responsible for that statement.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, under his scheme for a reorganisation of the Services, each of the three chiefs of staff is to retain the right of direct access to the Cabinet.

The position of the chiefs of staff in fulfilling their traditional duty as professional military advisers to the Government is defined in paragraphs 5 and 17 of the 1958 White Paper on Central Defence Organisation (Cmd. 476). As was made clear in recent defence debates no change is contemplated in this respect.

Is the Minister of Defence aware that many hon. Members on both sides of the House feel that this reorganisation will seriously weaken the effective political control of the three Services if the individual Service Ministers are downgraded in their status while the heads of the Services retain the right of access to the Cabinet even without consulting the Minister of Defence?

Clearly, any effective reorganisation of the central organisation of defence was bound to have a marked effect on the political control of the three Services.

It weakens it.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, under his scheme for a reorganisation of the Services, it is now proposed to abolish the Board of Admiralty, the Army Council and the Air Force Council.

asked the Minister of Defence what consideration he is giving to the co-ordination of the intelligence departments of the Admiralty, War Office and Air Ministry in the new defence structure, in order to ensure reductions in present staffs.

asked the Minister of Defence what estimates he has now made of the reduction in manpower and the financial savings that will result from the proposed reorganisation of the defence departments.

As I have told the House, the details of the reorganisation are being worked out and I hope to place them before the House later in the summer. The proposals then will cover the various matters raised in these Questions, but I should prefer not to make any statement on them in the meantime.

Before deciding on a system of complete uniformity will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the advantages of the Board system as it has worked in the Admiralty, which differs considerably from that of the Army Council system in the War Office? Before deciding on uniformity, will he hesitate to destroy a system that has worked very well throughout the years?

I am well aware of the distinctive features of the Admiralty, and I will bear these and all other relevant considerations in mind.

Would not the Minister of Defence agree that by employing the techniques of applied accountancy he should be able to give the House a general idea as to what savings in finance and manpower could be accumulated until such time as he makes his precise statement?

There will be ample opportunities for discussing that at a time when we can see the whole picture.

Is it not really pretty scandalous to come forward with schemes of this sort without having thought out such elementary considerations as this or without having really considered whether the Services are to be controlled by the political Ministers or by irresponsible chiefs of staff, as apparently is now considered?

If the hon. and learned Gentleman considers the matter, I think that he will realise that all these matters would require very careful and detailed discussion with large numbers of people, which would certainly become public, and that therefore there is some advantage in announcing decisions in principle in advance of the discussions.

As the right hon. Gentleman has not yet made up his mind, would he object if some hon. Members helped him to make up his mind on this very important matter of the reorganisation of defence? Does he realise that, if he retains the Board of Admiralty, the Army Council and the Air Force Council in their present form, the reorganisation of defence will be just a façade?

I would not object in the slightest. Indeed, the advice and counsel of this House are of inestimable value in a reorganisation of this character.

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will consider recasting the planned services run-down in Malta.

In working out the plans for the run-down in Malta as in other places we have to consider primarily the needs of the Services. Within the framework dictated by Service requirements we have naturally done all we can to create the least possible hardship locally.

As my right hon. Friend knows, the Governor recently made a speech saying that, in spite of increased industrialisation, by 1967 one-quarter of the population might be out of work and one-fifth of the national revenue fallen away. Will not my right hon. Friend consider phasing the run-down over ten years instead of five?

The Services have much to be grateful for to Malta, and if there should be changes in our deployment which would have the effect of assisting the Maltese economy I should welcome them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the serious position which will arise as a result of the run-down of the three Services in Malta? Will he consult the other Ministers with a view to finding alternative employment for the men who will become redundant as the run-down of the Services takes place?

I am in close consultation with my right hon. Friend, though I think that the latter question is not for me.

asked the Minister of Defence which authority in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation will command the British V-bombers assigned by Her Majesty's Government to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

The command and other arrangements for the nuclear force of which these aircraft will form part are matters for N.A.T.O. as a whole and are still under discussion.

Can the Minister of Defence confirm that until this date no purely N.A.T.O. authority has had any strategic nuclear weapons at its command? Does he not agree that the use in certain ways of the V-bomber force could automatically involve the whole world in total global thermo-nuclear war? Is it not, therefore, a very extraordinary thing that Her Majesty's Government should have decided to assign these bombers to N.A.T.O. without first finding out what authority in N.A.T.O. is going to control the use of these bombers?

We should be agreeable to these being put under the command of SACEUR, but it is right and proper that I should defer any announcement about details of command and control until N.A.T.O., which is, after all, an alliance, has had an opportunity of considering these matters.

Is it not a fact that N.A.T.O. has had tactical nuclear weapons under its command for some time? Is it not also a fact that the impact on the ground of tactical nuclear weapons is not so very different from the strategic weapons which are now being referred to?

My lion. Friend is, of course, quite right. The injudicious use of nuclear weapons of any kind could involve the world in total destruction.

asked the Minister of Defence what part the TSR2 aircraft is intended to play as part of the British or North Atlantic Treaty Organisation strategic nuclear deterrent.

The TSR2 is capable of both a conventional and a nuclear role. The question of whether it is strategic must depend upon the nature of the target attacked. Some of the aircraft will no doubt be offered for assignment to N.A.T.O. on suitable terms.

Could the Minister of Defence state definitely whether this aircraft could reach the capital of a potential aggressor without refuelling and return? Could he do this for two reasons—first, to increase the deterrent effect of the aircraft, and, secondly, to reassure the public as to the authenticity of the Government's very recent claim that this is indeed a strategic nuclear bomber?

The aircraft could clearly be used in a strategic role, but I would say nothing which would give an indication of its precise range.

asked the Minister of Defence what conclusions he has reached as a result of his examination of the proposed North Atlantic Treaty Organisation multilateral Polaris surface force regarding its military advantages; what degree of British participation is now planned; how it is proposed that the force will be controlled; and under what legal authority it is proposed that discipline will be enforced.

I refer my hon. Friend to my replies, and that of the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, of 27th March.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, while there may be political advantages in this idea, there must be very few military advantages in having ships crewed by men of different nations? Would he not agree that this might be a very expensive form of deterrent?

I will bear in mind these and all other considerations which have been put in question and answer and debates on these subjects.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will now give details of the proposed composition of the crews of the vessels of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation multilateral force now under consideration.

British ships will be manned by British crews. The proposal for a mixed-manned component is being studied in N.A.T.O. and no decision on it has yet been taken.

Will the Minister indicate whether the authenticating officers who fire the missiles will be of mixed nationalities and, in that context, will he bear in mind the undesirable consequences of any German fingers being on the buttons which fire the missiles?

All these matters will be borne in mind in the consideration which N.A.T.O. is giving to this topic.

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that he will keep his mind open on this matter of multi-racial crews, providing one thing—that at the end of the day he rejects the idea?

I think that it is better to consider things before one either accepts or rejects them.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will define a tactical nuclear weapon.

One that is directed at a tactical target.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when General Sir Richard Gale was acting as chairman of a series of responsible lectures on strategic concepts he himself said that, when he was deputy allied leader in Europe, he tried to get a definition of a tactical nuclear weapon and—

"Neither from my own country, nor from the United States of America, did I get any"

Reading.

Order. Verbatim quotations from such sources are out of order in questions.

It was not a quotation direct, Mr. Speaker. I omitted many of the words. Does the Minister now think that he has helped the general in defining a tactical weapon in those absurd words?

I have made a fairly brief contribution to the point.

Have we got any, and do they work?

Yes, we have a fairly voluminous supply of tactical nuclear weapons.

Does the Minister agree that the use of the word "tactical" about any nuclear weapon of the 10 kiloton or larger range, which is what we have, is very dangerous and self-deceiving?

I have some sympathy with that point of view. I think that it is quite erroneous to talk about tactical weapons as though they were some sort of modern artillery. These are weapons of really devastating power.

asked the Minister of Defence to what extent it remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government, in view of the danger of retarding the nation's economic development, to retain, as essential for British defence policy, each of the following commitments, namely, those in Hong Kong, Singapore and Malaya, the Middle East, Kenya, Aden and the Persian Gulf, Malta, Cyprus, North Africa, West Germany and Berlin, the Atlantic naval force, the strategic reserve in the United Kingdom, the garrison in the Caribbean and missions to foreign and Commonwealth forces, together with the British contribution to the Western nuclear deterrent; and to what extent this policy has been changed in the past four years in respect of each commitment.

To the extent necessary at any time to defend British interests.

Is the right hon. Gentleman distinguishing between British interests, economic and manufacturing, and British focal points of power? Is he aware that while our commitments have risen from 5s. 1d. per week per person when the party opposite came into power to 13s. 1d. now, these areas are defined by John Connell, who knows something about the subject, as "a rag-bag of contradictions"?

It is not my purpose to distinguish between any of these things, but simply to say that the job of the Ministry of Defence is to serve British interests in whichever part of the world we are called upon to do so.

Could the right hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.]

Order. We are now discussing commitments.

—tell me how we would deploy our defence policy in Hong Kong when the water supply in Victoria Island is insufficient and on the mainland it is under the control of the Chinese?

This is, no doubt, one of the problems involved, but if the hon. Member wants to put down specific Questions about specific places he will no doubt do so.

asked the Minister of Defence how much defence costs per person per week.

In the 1963–64 Estimates defence will cost 13s. 5d. per person per week.

As an ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer, has the right hon. Gentleman no sympathy with the present Chancellor? Since he has presented a bill for £300 million more than was presented to him when he was Chancellor, does he not think that he should appear today not in a tile hat but in a white sheet?

I think that a country which spends on average 18s. 1d. per person per week on drink and tobacco might spend 13s. 5d. for its defences.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he still holds to the view expressed when he resigned from his Treasury post some years ago that we would never get an effective return for our tremendous defence expenditure so long as we tried to maintain both a full-scale nuclear capacity and adequate conventional forces?

I hesitate to ask the hon. Gentleman to read my resignation speech as a whole, but he will see, if he does, that in it I referred to what we spend upon ourselves in softer living as well as on our defences.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will conduct a further review of expenditure on defence with a view to its reduction.

The cost of our defences is related to the extent of our commitments and I see no immediate prospect of their being reduced.

Will the Minister consider inviting Dr. Beeching to examine the costs in his Department to see if his axe might work there?

I already have quite considerable assistance from the hon. Member himself.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty when he anticipates that Messrs. Vickers will commence three-shift working on Her Majesty's Submarine "Valiant".

The building of "Valiant" is at present up to schedule. Messrs. Vickers inform me that six trade groups operated a three-shift system during the construction of "Dreadnought" and they anticipate that these six groups and others will operate shift working at the appropriate time on the building programme for "Valiant" and other nuclear submarines.

While congratulating my hon. Friend on that really excellent news, may I ask whether he can confirm, first, that three-shift working will be extended to the second Polaris yard and, secondly, that three-shift working will enable him to cut about one year off the building time for Polaris submarines as compared with the Americans?

When we inquired of the shipbuilders we asked them about their capability for round the clock working and pointed out that it would be required and that the willingness of the firms and unions to accept this would be considered before placing the order. I cannot give an undertaking on the second point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, but I can say that we will certainly build these as quickly as we possibly can, with the co-operation of the trade unions.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if the intended building programme of British Polaris submarines will prejudice the fulfilment of the S.S.K. hunter-killer submarine requirement which is necessary for the protection of British shipping throughout the world.

In the short term I am afraid there must be some prejudice to that programme, but thereafter it will be open to Her Majesty's Govern- ment to make new decisions about the rate at which nuclear hunter-killers should be built.

Would my hon. Friend agree that this is a contradiction of his right hon. Friend's undertaking that the Royal Navy's conventional forces would not be sacrificed to the nuclear commitment? Is it a question of money or of building facilities? If it is the latter, would my right hon. Friend look again at the question of giving an order for a few S.S.K.s to one of the Royal Dockyards?

It is not a question, in the long run, of building facilities. I am sure that these could be achieved, manned and trained. It is, firstly, a question of finance; and I do not think that this contradicts my right hon. Friend's views. In the long run I am sure that we will make up the three hunter-killer submarines which we will lose in the short term.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of what his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said? He said that other naval decisions would have to be taken on their merits and not in accordance with the Polaris programme. Is this not a case where the Polaris programme is definitely holding up the naval programme?

I have agreed that in the short term we shall lose three hunter-killer submarines. At the same time, we are going ahead with conventional submarines which will give first-class service in the Fleet. There will be 35 in the operational fleet and 12 modern ones in the reserve; and this should be of tremendous use in the next 20 years.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement on the methods of disposing of obsolescent ships and boats.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to ex-R.N. whalers, or similar boats, surplus to the Navy's need.

As the hon. Member is aware, they are first offered to the Combined Cadet Force and to the Sea Cadet Corps because the Admiralty accepts a responsibility for providing them with naval training equipment and they are a valuable source of recruitment to the Royal Navy. Any left over are offered first to the Sea Scouts and then to the Ministry of Education for allocation to schools.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the grave disquiet felt in many parts of the country about the method of his Department's allocation of these ships and boats and the manner in which they are allowed to lie around in certain places and depots when they could be of immense value to many educational organisations? Will he look into this matter more closely than he has done in the past?

We certainly want to make use of any available boats. If the hon. Member will draw my attention to those he has in mind, I will have the matter examined carefully and sympathetically.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what progress is being made in research into hydrofoil design; and whether orders are being placed for prototype hydrofoil craft for the Royal Navy.

The Royal Navy has not commissioned any current United Kingdom research into hydrofoil craft, or ordered any prototypes. We prefer to develop the hovercraft which in our view offers greater versatility and promise in possible naval roles. However, I understand that the Ship Division of the National Physical Laboratory is now actively engaged on behalf of the Royal Canadian Navy in the second stage of an extensive investigation into the hydrodynamic design of a large hydrofoil ship.

Is my hon. Friend aware that Russia, America and Italy are running hydrofoil craft which can do 50 knots? Could not these be suitable for ships' tenders in this country? Could not the British Navy purchase one for a few thousand pounds? If these experiments were successful might not, say, the Royal Barge run on hydrofoil as an experiment?

We are certainly watching the development of the hydrofoil but, as I said, the versatility of the ground effect machine, or hovercraft, has special attractions for us.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty when it is expected to complete full tests of the Wasp helicopter; and when the five commissioned Tribal class frigates will be equipped with this aircraft.

We expect to complete flying and service trials of the Wasp helicopter in time to permit embarkation of some of these aircraft this year. The date at which a particular Leander or Tribal class frigate will receive her helicopter will be determined by the priorities then ruling.

Is it not rather deplorable that these ships should have been commissioned and sent out to their stations without their most important weapons? What is the Admiralty doing to get a move on with this?

I would remind the hon. Gentleman that these ships are equipped with the three-barrelled antisubmarine mortar, and we are very anxious to get on with the equipping of the same ships with the Wasp, but it would have been very rash, and financially wasteful, if we had placed the production order before overcoming the production difficulties of the helicopter.

When will these five ships be fitted with the Wasp?

I think that we have to wait to see where the ships are at the time, but we hope to have numbers of Wasps in our operational fleet by the end of this year. But it would be folly to send a Wasp to, perhaps, the Persian Gulf if we wanted it to play a more important role in N.A.T.O. in the West.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many additional men will be required at Rosyth by the end of 1963 for the work which will be necessary to prepare this dockyard for the refitting and refuelling of nuclear submarines.

As I said in my written reply of 15th March to the hon. Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Dr. A. Thompson), it is too early to be precise about the timing of manpower increases at Rosyth. We shall, however, start to increase the dockyard labour force as soon as we can recruit suitable craftsmen, and a small number of staff, when they have received training in nuclear work, will be appointed to Rosyth dockyard to plan the facilities required.

Are we to understand from what the Civil Lord previously said about this refitting depot that it would be necessary whether we proceeded with the Polaris or no?

Yes, Sir.

Can my hon. Friend say whether he has been taking in a sufficient number of apprentices locally in recent years to enable the Royal Navy to build up a local labour force?

Yes, Sir. In the last five years we have increased our apprentice intake from 71 to 98, to 145, to 167 and, this year, to 190. I am sure that this will pay a worth-while dividend, not only in the training of young men but in the dockyard as well.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many naval ships are to be built on the Clyde in the year 1963–64; how many will be started in the next six months; and what will be the estimated cost of them when completed.

The Clyde is already building an assault ship, a 6,000-ton guided missile destroyer, six frigates and two Oberon class submarines. Four Clyde firms are invited to tender for the two fleet replenishment ships awaiting order and, as I announced in the Estimates Debate, one of the three firms with whom we are discussing the Polaris submarine building programme is at Greenock.

We normally announce our shipbuilding plans as we are ready to go to tender for particular vessels, and we shall follow this practice during the year.

In view of the employment position on the Clyde, is it not possible to bring forward some of these orders a little, and so provide more work now?

We are examining this position. The total orders on the Clyde are £57 million for naval vessels, of which £40 million actually goes to the firms on the Clyde, so they have a very worth-while contribution to make, and are making a worth-while contribution to the Navy.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that on the Clyde there should be built at least one nuclear-propelled vessel in the near future?

There are rival claims between Merseyside and Clyde-side, as the hon. Gentleman knows.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how much of the £241 millions to be spent in 1963–64 on new ships will be spent in Scottish shipyards; and what will be the estimated employment arising.

The Question should read as referring to £241 million to be spent on new ships to be started.

Well, that takes away part of my Answer.

As I said in the Estimates debate, the figure of £241 million is not the provision for this year's building programme, but the estimated cost of completing over several years the new naval vessels on which some expenditure will start during 1963–64.

Can the Civil Lord give some indication of what vessels this very large sum includes?

It certainly includes Polaris submarines, and there is a very small amount in far a possible aircraft carrier because, as I have said, this sum covers all ships in our plan on which there might be any expenditure in the coming year.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how much of the increased expenditure on naval vessels in the next financial year will be spent in Scottish shipyards; and how much new work will be started in the next nine months.

The success of Scottish shipyards in securing tenders in competition with firms elsewhere will govern the expenditure on new orders in 1963–64. Scottish firms suitably equipped will, of course, be given an opportunity to tender.

Will the Minister bear in mind that the Scottish shipbuilding industry, generally, accounts for about 40 per cent. of United Kingdom ships built in any particular year? Will he further bear in mind that we have in Scotland virtually none of the new industries? Would he see that a disproportionately heavy amount of this type of building comes to Scotland?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what consideration is given to the unemployment situation when placing contracts for new naval vessels; and to what extent this consideration has weighed in the placing of contracts for new vessels to be laid down in the next financial year.

Our procedure ensures that all areas of high unemployment are given the opportunity to win contracts for naval construction. As most of the warship builders are already in the development districts, most of the contracts for the building of warships go to areas of high unemployment.

Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that the livelihood of many men in the areas of high unemployment depends on this work? Is he aware that we shall watch acutely the distribution of the orders? Can he state the total value of shipbuilding orders at present?

The total value of shipbuilding orders is £215 million, of which £150 million is spent actually with the shipbuilders themselves. I am aware of the other point, and I should like to say that it is not a matter only of shipbuilding. For instance, the Royal Navy has placed contracts in Scotland totalling £15 million for N.A.T.O. sites being constructed in Scotland, and we give much other substantial support in our naval establishments, like the establishment at Lossiemouth.

Will my hon. Friend emphasise the need to improve efficiency and timing?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many students have been enrolled for the first year of the three year degree course for electrical engineering at the Royal Naval College, Greenwich, September 1963.

About four probationary assistant electrical engineers will be enrolled this summer. Negotiations are still proceeding for the addition of other Government trainees to this course.

Does the Civil Lord realise that his Answer means that there are eight or nine vacancies for this course, and that we cannot afford to waste such places? There is no security problem in having ordinary graduates in Greenwich when, at Greenwich, there are foreign officers, some having taken courses in Iron Curtain countries.

I am aware of these facts. We are finalising arrangements for an additional eight Royal Navy scientific personnel to take this course, and we hope to secure that in September.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many students are at present taking courses at the Royal Naval College, Greenwich.

Two hundred and forty-eight.

Does the Civil Lord realise that, if properly used, the facilities at Greenwich are capable of coping with just over twice that number of students, and that there is therefore a terrific wastage there? Is he aware that many of those being trained there could be trained at Manadon, and Greenwich put to far better use as a university?

I would not agree with the hon. Gentleman. My figures show that 330 would fill the accommodation at Greenwich unless further classrooms were built and, if we did have to remove this course, very heavy capital expenditure would be incurred elsewhere, and it would, of course, interrupt a very important training programme.

asked the Secretary of State for War what steps he is taking to enable Scottish industry to manufacture under licence the Belgian machine gun now being purchased from Belgium for Her Majesty's Forces.

None, Sir. Our small arms production is concentrated at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield, where the bulk of the Army's requirement for the general purpose machine gun is being made.

I am amazed by that Answer. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friends are advocating the placing of Government work in development districts, and that the Burgh of Clydebank is in a development district? At one time we had a Royal Ordnance factory there. Is he aware that 3,000 jobs were taken out of Clydebank? Is it not his duty in equipping British troops to place orders in Clydebank for Swedish, Belgian and Italian guns in order to bring these jobs back to Clydebank?

This is a Belgian gun which is having to be made here under licence. Not enough are being made to divide the order, and the prime order must go to the Royal Ordnance factory.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the electronic computer organisation set up by the Royal Army Pay Corps is being utilised by all three defence services.

No, Sir. The existing facilities at Worthy Down are sufficient only for the requirements of the Army.

Is the Secretary of State able to say what financial savings have been achieved by the use of the electronic computer organisation?

Not yet—it is too early—but it is being an extremely great success.

asked the Secretary of State for War why he has halted apprentice intake at Royal Ordnance Factory, Woolwich.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware of concern arising from the decision to close down the apprentices training school at Woolwich when this will take effect; and, in view of the need for expansion of training centres for young people, what is being done to utilise the equipment and staff.

No decision has been taken to close down the First Year Apprentice Training Shop at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Woolwich. All that I have decided to do at present is to suspend the normal intake of new apprentices for one year.

About 150 apprentices are already under training at the factory. As the number of craftsmen available to train them is being reduced, a new intake of apprentices next September would overload the apprentice training capacity of the factory.

Why did the Minister not wait for the result of the inquiry which he set up before he took this serious step? Is not this an extremely bad time at which to close down even temporarily any apprentice training establishment? Is the right hon. Gentleman not setting a very bad example to private enterprise?

It has been closed only to one year's intake and when the inquiry is finished we will decide on its future. I had to do this, otherwise we would have overloaded the percentage in terms of people being trained compared with the number of craftsmen available. I am consulting my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to see whether there is any other way we could do this.

While I am aware that no decision has been taken to close down the establishment, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that in a town which is suffering so badly from creeping paralysis as a result of decisions taken by the Government this seems very ominous? Can the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, give an undertaking that this valuable equipment and the highly skilled staff will not become redundant in any circumstances?

I do not think that I can add to what I have said about the consultations which I am having with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, or indeed add to what my right hon. Friend said about the general situation when he answered a Question two days ago.

What is to happen to the pre-apprenticeship learners employed at the Arsenal? Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that if they miss the chance of training there they will not be denied it elsewhere in Government service?

I am looking into all these matters at present.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) what disciplinary action has been taken as a result of failures to comply with War Office instructions that unit transport should be made available to the Royal Army Service Corps on days when it was not required for operational or training purposes;

No disciplinary action has been taken.

These are matters which the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn to the attention of the Committee on Public Accounts in his Report on the Army Appropriation Account for 1961–62. I understand that the Committee is going to examine these questions and will be asking my officials to give evidence on them. It would be contrary to custom for me to anticipate the Committee's inquiries by saying anything now.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the grave shortage of mathematics and science teachers, he will extend to them the same favourable conditions in the appointment of principals as obtains in the appointment of classics principals.

I am at present re-examining the provisions regarding these and other posts of responsibility.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consult with the appropriate authorities with a view to introducing legislation to establish in Glasgow permanent sittings of the Court of Session and the Court of Justiciary.

The High Court of Justiciary already sits in Glasgow as required. I do not think that there is any need to contemplate a change in the arrangements for the Court of Session.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the congestion at the Glasgow courts, and will he look into the matter?

I am aware of the congestion at the Glasgow courts, but the problem of whether the Court of Session should sit in Glasgow seems to me to be a different one from that of the congestion of the ordinary courts.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he has sent to the headmasters of Belmont High School and St. Margaret's High School, Ayr, in response to their letter of 5th March about teachers' salaries in Ayrshire.

My hon. Friend will have had the letter which I sent to him on the subject on 26th March.

Yes, Sir, that is quite true, but will my right hon. Friend bear it mind that there is a great deal of concern among the teaching profession in Scotland at this refusal of the authorities to appoint deputy head teachers in secondary schools? Will my right hon. Friend do his best to persuade the authorities?

I know that my hon. Friend appreciates that the appointment of deputy head teachers is in the discretion of the education authorities. Accordingly, it is not open to me to intervene.

In view of the fact that so many people have come here today specially to hear Scottish Questions, could not the right hon. Gentleman give more satisfactory Answers?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will give a decision on whether there will in future be one Electricity Board for Scotland.

While I appreciate that an early announcement is desirable, I regret that I cannot at present say when this will be possible.

Will my right hon. Friend consider whether he can possibly speed up his answer to the Question in view of the amount of misleading and ill-informed propaganda sent to hon. Members by "Aims of Industry" and similar organisations?

I will, of course, try to speed up my decision, but this must not be at the expense of looking carefully at the very complicated problems involved.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us do not want him to make such a decision and have one Electricity Board for Scotland? Is he aware that we are almost convinced at the moment, unless evidence emerges to the contrary, that it would be much better to preserve the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board?

I am aware that this view is held not only by the right hon. Gentleman but by many others in the House.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that authoritative opinion in the north of Scotland is against amalgamation? Why cannot this Board, which has done so much for the Highlands of Scotland, retain its independence?

I am certainly aware of what my hon. Friend says, but the problem is not purely one for the Highlands. It is one for Scotland and it is in balancing these matters that I have to take a decision.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman has had the report before him for many months. Is he aware that this is bound to create an unsettling feeling? Will the right hon. Gentleman show himself to be as sensitive to the real needs of the people of Scotland as hitherto he has shown himself sensitive to the propaganda of "Aims of Industry"?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Hunter Committee on Salmon is now expected to report.

I understand that the Committee cannot yet forecast the date of its report but it has given priority to the question of drift-net fishing for salmon and is considering whether it is possible to make an interim report on that subject.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a matter of considerable urgency for the inshore fishermen of Scotland? Can he, therefore, undertake to implement the findings of the Hunter Report as quickly as possible?

I am aware of the inshore fishermen's interest in this matter. I am also aware that Lord Hunter is doing his best to speed up an interim report on this aspect of the whole inquiry, but I think that it is not likely that that interim Report will be available very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he received a letter from the Braehead School Parent-Teachers' Association regarding unemployment among school leavers in the Buckhaven and Wemyss areas; what was the nature of his reply; and if he will make a statement.

The letter was received on 18th March, and I am sending the hon. Member a copy of my Department's reply. I understand from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that the number of school leavers registered for employment in the Wemyss area has fallen from 116 to 61 in the last month, and that the Youth Employment Service will continue to do everything possible to find suitable employment for those still seeking work.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the irony of the situation when in National Productivity Year there are still 319 school leavers in Fife, including the Buckhaven and Wemyss areas, who are denied the opportunity of increasing the productivity of the country? When is the right hon. Gentleman going to do something about it?

As far as this problem is concerned with industrial development, it is one for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. I am only too well aware of the problem. I know that the employment of school leavers is a matter of concern. A number of full-time pre-employment courses is already available in technical colleges in Buckhaven and elsewhere. Any further proposals which the Fife Education Authority puts to me will certainly receive my careful consideration.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that he needs to view this matter with urgency? Is he aware of the bad psychological effect on many schoolchildren when they leave school and are unable to get work and feel that they are not wanted in our society? Will the right hon. Gentleman press on with some solution?

I am certainly aware of the urgency. The figures which I have quoted in the Answer are not good enough, but at least they are a good start.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he received from Aberdeen Trades Council its letter of 4th March, 1963, expressing concerned at the increasing unemployment in the engineering establishments in Aberdeen, and suggesting amongst other remedies the recommencement of hydroelectric building work, on lines recommended by the Mackenzie Committee Report, and of other similar public projects; what steps he will take to solve the relevant problems of unemployment; and what reply he has sent or intends to send to that letter.

I have not received any such letter, but I have ascertained that the hon. and learned Member sent the letter he received to the Board of Trade. I have been in touch with my right hon. Friend about it and have now written to the hon. and learned Member.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he cannot pretend that he does not know of the vast unemployment in Aberdeen? Is it not time that he formulated some constructive plans to absorb the unemployment there? When will the right hon. Gentleman do something?

As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, some of the things which have been announced in the last month or two are specifically for Aberdeen.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why he proposes to close the demonstration school of Aberdeen Educational College; and what he proposes to substitute for it.

I refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Answer I gave him on 27th March.

Does the Secretary of State realise that the Principal of Aberdeen University and other distinguished teachers in Aberdeen are against the closing of this demonstration school and that they regard it as wasteful? Will he reconsider the matter and allow the college to continue the good work it has been doing over the years?

I am aware that there are people in Aberdeen who think that this demonstration school should go on. But the decision is one primarily for the authority itself in Aberdeen, and I think that in this case it is right.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a great many people in the north-east of Scotland are grateful to him for the very prompt action he has taken in that part of the world to increase the supply of teachers and they have great confidence in the action he is taking to provide training in teaching practice in other schools in the area?

I thank my hon. Friend for that. The education authority in Aberdeen is probably the best staffed in Scotland, and I hope that it will remain so.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will take the steps necessary to enable him to issue as soon as possible a report on the present ownership of land in Scotland, in view of the fact that the last one was made in 1874.

I am not clear that any useful purpose would be served by preparing a report of this kind.

Even if it is of no interest to the Secretary of State, does not he realise that it would be of interest to many other Scotsmen to know who owns Scotland? Does he not know that many changes in land ownership have taken place since 1874 at prices which are very shocking and which have affected the whole redevelopment of Scotland? Will he reconsider the matter?

I realise that there are many people in Scotland who might be interested in the compilation of a report of this sort, but the work to produce it would be colossal and I cannot see that it would meet any useful purpose whatever except interest.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he himself is the biggest land owner in Scotland?

Alas, yes.

In view of the entirely unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking to control the price of building land in Scotland.

It is the Government's policy to encourage local planning authorities to ensure that enough land is allocated for development in the right places. This is the most constructive course.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that, within the last fortnight, there has been in Edinburgh a sale of building land at an exorbitant price, and that this sort of thing makes it impossible for municipalities or the private builder to provide housing at reasonable prices? Will he take positive action to put a stop to this racket?

One should not draw conclusions from one particular case. Over the past few years, there has been no noticeable increase in the price of land in Scotland. In fact, the cost of land is rather less than 5 per cent. of the cost of housing.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many geriatric beds will be provided by the extension to Liberton Hospital; and how many persons are at present on the waiting list in Edinburgh.

One hundred and eighty-four and 430 respectively.