Written Answers To Questions
Thursday, 4th April, 1963
Home Department
Discharged Prisoners
4.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what restrictions are imposed on prisoners discharged from Her Majesty's prisons on their choice of place of residence inside the United Kingdom.
It is not the practice to impose restrictions on the place of residence of a person released on licence under the Prison Act, 1952. He may, however be discouraged from settling in an area where it is known that his prospects of obtaining accommodation and employment are poor.
Fireworks (Safety)
7.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, following the publication of the analysis of injuries from fireworks, he has had discussions with the Firework Manufacturers' Association; and what action will be taken in the light of this analysis.
Yes. The following is a statement of the conclusions reached in these discussions:In the reply I gave on 7th March to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason), I referred to the part played by publicity in reducing the number of accidents and to the intention to increase publicity further next November. The type of firework which gave rise to the greatest number of accidents in 1962 was the cheap banger. The manufacturers have decided to discontinue the manufacture of 1d. and 1½d. bangers in 1963, and the total number of bangers available is not expected to exceed one-third of the number sold in 1962. All fireworks which might be held in the hand will be labelled "Not to be held in the hand" unless they are specifically designed for that purpose.The manufacturers have undertaken some research on two suggestions which my Department discussed with them last year, namely the fitting of caps over the ignition points of fireworks and the improvement of the reliability of the means of ignition. Practical difficulties have been experienced, but I have urged the manufacturers to pursue these ideas. My right hon. Friend proposes to see whether these measures prove effective before considering whether further steps are required.
Prisoners (Members' Correspondence)
20.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will inquire into the circumstances in which information regarding the contents of correspondence between his Department and the hon. Member for Ashfield was conveyed to the prisoner who was the subject of that correspondence; and if he will make a statement.
I have made careful inquiries, and no information regarding the contents of correspondence between my Department and the hon. Member for Ashfield has been conveyed by the Department to the prisoner. Since this Question was put down I have received a letter from the hon. Member to which I shall be replying in detail.
21.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent advice he has given to prison governors on the interpretation of the Prison Standing Orders governing correspondence between prisoners and Members of Parliament.
No recent general advice has been given, but when Governors are in doubt whether a particular letter to a Member of Parliament should be stopped they ask for instructions about that letter.
Amphetamines And Phenmetrazine
29.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make the amphetamines and phenmetrazine and related compounds dangerous drugs instead of Schedule IV poisons.
It would not be appropriate to control these substances, which are stimulants, under the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1951, which is concerned with narcotic drugs controlled by international agreement. My right hon. Friend is, however, considering the possible need for stricter control of substances of this kind.
Police Files (Access)
27.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what access to Metropolitan Police files and records is given to ex-policemen subsequently employed as security staff with other organisations.
Ex-police officers employed as security staff by commercial and other similar organisations have no access to records kept by the Metropolitan Police.
Chief Enahoro
37.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what dates he instructed the Metropolitan Police to oppose the granting of bail to Chief Anthony Enahoro; and why this was done.
I gave no such instructions.
Unemployment (Demonstration)
38.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many of those prosecuted for offences arising from the recent demonstration of unemployed outside the House of Commons resided in, or came from, the north of England and other areas of acute unemployment; and if he will make a statement in respect of this disturbance.
Of the nine persons arrested outside the House of Commons, all were from London and the Home Counties, other than two from Liverpool.I am informed by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis that the organisers of the demonstration were anxious to comply with police requirements for the orderly conduct of the demonstration, and had indeed arranged for a number of stewards to assist the police in controlling the queue of people waiting to see their Members. The organisation and control during the morning were good, but later the organisers' control of the situation deteriorated through the intervention of extremists, and the police were compelled to take strong measures to restore order and secure compliance with the Sessional Order.
Wild Birds (Eggs Of Common Birds) Order, 1955
39.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now reached a conclusion as to the action he will take in relation to the Wild Birds (Eggs of Common Birds) Order, 1955, so as to protect various harmless species of birds before the breeding season is further advanced.
I am disposed to accept the advice I have just received from my Advisory Committee that the existing order should be revoked as an emergency measure; but before I can take a final decision I am required by statute to give local authorities and other persons affected an opportunity to submit objections or representations. This I am doing as a matter of urgency.
Court Orders (Hospital Detention)
41.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what procedures have been laid down for enabling hospitals to be notified by a court of petty sessions that arrangements have been made for admission to a mental hospital under the Mental Health Act 1959.
Before ordering an offender's detention in hospital under Section 60 or 61 of the Mental Health Act, magistrates' courts are required by Section 60(3) of the Act to be satisfied that arrangements have been made for the hospital to admit him within 28 days of the order. It is the responsibility of one of the two doctors reporting to the court to ascertain from the hospital beforehand that a bed is available and to inform the court accordingly. If the court decides to make an order, a copy is sent to the hospital concerned, together with such information about the case as the court thinks likely to be of assistance.
Miss Christine Keeler
42.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what police protection is being made available to Miss Christine Keeler by the Metropolitan Police.
None.
Durham Prison (Inquiry)
43.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consultations he had, and with whom, before setting up the inquiry into Durham Prison.
My decision to ask the visiting committee lo undertake this inquiry in accordance with Prison Rule 194 was taken after full consideration but was not the subject of formal consultation outside my Department.
Tattooing
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to ensure that no person shall insert into the skin of any child under the age of 16 the indelible type of design known as tattooing.
No. I agree that unwanted tattoo marks may be an embarrassment: but it is a mistake to create new criminal offences unless the activity in question does serious harm.
Central Africa
Rhodesias And Nyasaland
44.
asked the First Secretary of State if he will make a statement on his talks with the Federal, Southern Rhodesian and Northern Rhodesian Governments.
I would refer my hon. Friend to my statement to the House on 1st April.
46.
asked the First Secretary of State, if he will make a statement on the conclusions reached by the bi-national conferences reviewing the Federation of the Rhodesias and Nyasaland.
I would refer the hon. Member to my statement to the House on 1st April.
Education
Swindon Head Teachers' Association (Letter)
49.
asked the Minister of Education if he has considered the letter dated 18th March addressed to him by the Swindon Head Teachers' Association; and what reply he has made.
My Department replied on 28th March pointing out that the claims of areas where there were too few school places must be regarded as more pressing than those in which the total number of new places provided had kept pace with the increase in the school population.
Schoolboy Amateur Boxing Association
50.
asked the Minister of Education if he will accord the Schoolboy Amateur Boxing Association recognition.
It is not the practice of my right hon. Friend to accord the status of "recognised as efficient" except to schools and other educational establishments which satisfy the necessary conditions.
St Joseph's Academy, Blackheath
51.
asked the Minister of Education why he turned down the recommendation of the London County Council that St. Joseph's Academy, Blackheath, be included in the 1964–65 school building programme; and if he will reconsider this decision.
My right hon. Friend had to give priority to the provision of new school places in areas where the total number of places was insufficient, and to the completion of the reorganisation of all-age schools. The enlargement of St. Joseph's Academy did not fall within those categories. I am meeting a Committee of parents tomorrow to discuss the matter.
Teacher Training Colleges (Deputation)
52.
asked the Minister of Education why the deputation of union presidents from teacher training colleges were not informed in advance that his Parliamentary Secretary would not be available to meet them, as previously arranged.
I was available in the House to see the union presidents at the time arranged.
School Building
53.
asked the Minister of Education whether he will make a further statement on, and give details of, the £200 million programme for school building at present in the pipeline and for straight improvements building and not for roofs over heads building.
As at June, 1962, there were about £75 million of major school improvement projects under construction including those for the reorganisation of all-age schools. In addition about £93 million of such projects are included in building programmes up to 1964–65. Minor works account for the balance of the £200 million.
Local Government
Leeds/Bradford Airport
54.
asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will announce as soon as possible the decision on the inquiry by his Department on the proposed extension of the runway at the Leeds/Bradford Airport in view of the delays that have already taken place in the provision of a suitable Yorkshire airport.
Yes.
Rates
55.
asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will give an assurance that the committee set up to study the impact of rates on different sections of the community and different income groups will report before the end of the next financial year, and that adjustments will be made for those who have been found to be unfairly assessed, and from whom the new rates will have been collected during 1963.
I shall ask the committee to report as soon as they are able, but ratepayers who think that their assessments are unfair should not wait for the committee's report but should make proposals for reductions in the usual way. Any reduction which results from a proposal ordinarily has effect from the beginning of the period in which the proposal is served on the valuation officer.
asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will publish a table on similar lines to Table II in his statement of 18th March, giving values in money terms of the various classes of property and including the figures for rate deficiency grant.
For the rateable values of the respective classes I would refer my hon. Friend to Appendix I of the White Paper on "Distribution of Rateable Values between different classes of property in England and Wales" (Cmnd. 1982) presented last Monday. The estimates of rate-deficiency grant on which Appendix II of the White Paper and Table II in my reply on 18th March to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir G. Nabarro) are based are £121,276,000 for 1962–63 and £137,353,000 for 1963–64.
asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table similar to that published in Command Paper No. 1663, on page 4, having regard particularly to the latest estimates of rate deficiency grant and contribution from Crown Properties for 1963–64.
The analyses made for the purposes of Command Paper No. 1982 do not enable the values for other than domestic hereditaments to be apportioned among the classes shown in the table on page 4 of Command Paper No. 1663. If all those hereditaments are treated as a single class the table is as follows:
| — | Houses | Other property | Rate-deficiency grant |
| Per cent. | Per cent. | Per cent. | |
| Share before revaluation | 41·10 | 46·35 | 12·55 |
| Share after revaluation | 40·52 | 45·27 | 14·21 |
| Change due to revaluation (i.e., difference between the shares expressed as a percentage of the share before revaluation) | - 1·4 | - 2·3 | + 13·2 |
Tribunals Of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921
56.
asked the Attorney-General whether he will seek to amend the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, so as to provide that persons appearing before tribunals shall not be required to disclose their sources of information.
By the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, a witness is under the same duty of answering lawful questions as if he were a witness in the ordinary courts. I do not intend to seek either to alter the general rules of evidence, or to provide special exception under the Act, in relation to the duty to tell the whole truth about sources of information on those occasions when this is relevant and necessary.
British Army
Baor (Absences Without Leave)
57.
asked the Secretary of State for War how many soldiers stationed in Germany have deserted or not returned from leave on time in the last three years, respectively, ending 31st March, 1963.
Soldiers who remain absent without leave for 21 days or more are classified for administrative convenience as deserters. There were 250 of these men in B.A.O.R. in 1961 and 332 in 1962. The great majority of them were not, however, charged with desertion but with absence without leave.I regret that figures for those failing to return from leave in time are not available for 1961. In 1962 there were some 17,000 such cases. Most soldiers in Germany are entitled to leave in the United Kingdom two or three times a year. The great majority of those who did not return on time were late because of sickness, compassionate extensions of leave, missed connections or other reasons.I regret that no figures are available for 1960.
Reme Workshop, Kinnegar
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will, whenever possible, allocate to the Royal Electrical and Mechnical Engineers workshop at Kinnegar, Holywood, County Down, additional work of maintenance of War Department equipment, with a view to assisting in the reduction of unemployment in that area.
The Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers workshop at Kinnegar serves the whole of Northern Ireland Command. I regret that the cost of moving equipment and stores from the rest of the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland for repair there and then back again would not be justified, particularly as adequate facilities already exist in the other Commands of the United Kingdom.
Service Men (Overseas Death)
asked the Secretary of State for War (1) if he will state the rules governing burials of Service men in Aden, Cyprus, North Africa and Singapore; and whether facilities are available for cremation;(2) if he will now allow the cremated remains of deceased Service men to be flown home from Middle East and Far East stations if relatives so wish.(3) whether he will allow one or two relatives to attend the funeral of a deceased Service men at Middle East or Far East stations where repatriation is impossible.
In Aden and Singapore, local laws provide for burial to be carried out, under normal circumstances, within 24 hours. In Tripoli the period is 48 hours, while in Cyprus and Cyrenaica no period is laid down. Facilities for cremation exist only in Singapore. I do not contemplate any alterations in current policy outside North-West Europe for the reasons I gave the House on 14th March, 1963.
Lord Privy Seal (Statements)
Q5.
asked the Prime Minister if the public statements made by the Lord Privy Seal concerning the resumption of negotiations for Great Britain's entry into the Common Market during an authorised interview published by the French newspaper, Le Monde, on 28th March represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
Q6.
asked the Prime Minister whether the public statements of the Lord Privy Seal, made during an authorised interview published by the French newspaper, Le Monde, on 28th March to the effect that discussions with the Six about Great Britain entry into the European Economic Community should continue, represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
Q7.
asked the Prime Minister if the public statements made during an authorised interview by the Lord Privy Seal published in the French newspaper, Le Monde, on 28th March on the British Government's attitude towards the European Economic Community represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
pursuant to his reply [OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd April, 1963; Vol. 675, c. 245–7], circulated the following information:
Text of the Lord Privy Seal's interview with Opera Mundi
The interruption of the negotiations for Britain's entry into the Common Market seriously strained the relations of France with the other members of the Six as well as with Great Britain. There is full agreement however in all interested countries, including France, that Mr. Edward Heath who conducted the negotiations in the name of the British Government appears today increased in stature and deserves unanimous praise for the competence, good-faith and understanding with which he participated in the discussions.
Nearly two months have now elapsed since the break-up of the negotiations and the passionate reactions of the immediate aftermath had time to cool off somewhat. Everything has been said in London as well as on the Continent on the origins and responsibilities in the background of this event and it was not our intention to come back to this subject: in the interview that follows we explored with Mr. Heath mainly future prospects and the possible evolution of the relations between Great Britain and the Common Market.
Question—Can we assume as a preliminary postulate that the United Kingdom will maintain and will not withdraw her application for entry as a full member in E.E.C. as long as the Conservative party will be in power?
Mr. Heath: The formal position at the close of the 17th Meeting of the Brussels Conference was that the Member States of the Community were prevented from continuing negotiations. I said at that time that we would not turn our backs on Europe. Our desire has always been to join in the building of a wider Europe and this attitude will continue to govern our policy.
Question—There was one proposal at General de Gaulle's press conference on 14th January which came as a surprise to the other five, when he raised the idea that Britain might become an associate member and much later, according to his definition, a regular member. At first, neither Britain nor the Five were interested in such a solution, but today, two months after it was mentioned, would you be willing to consider that there is some
way to be found in an associate membership which would not be by any means a permanent solution but an interim arrangement that could be an "ante-room" of sorts to a definite and complete entry of Great Britain, preferably after not too long a waiting period? Is there something to be investigated in that direction? Taking the situation as it stands today, would that not be a way to get out of the present complete stalemate?
Mr. Heath: The French Government has never discussed with us either in the course of the negotiations or since the break-up of the Community must decide for themselves. They have never explained what they meant by General de Gaulle's references to association in his Press conference. They have discussed it with a number of other countries and a considerable number of individuals, but they have never mentioned it to us. We applied for full membership of the Community under Article 237 because we wanted to play our full part in Europe both politically and economically. An association would not give us any opportunity of joining fully in the political developments in Europe. Nevertheless. I told the House of Commons when we debated the break-up of the negotiations that in certain circumstances we would consider a proposal for Association. These circumstances are: first, if a specific offer were to be made by the Six together; secondly, if it was in a form which did not involve any prolonged negotiation; and thirdly if it could be demonstrated that this was an offer made in good faith which was not later going to be vetoed on political grounds. In these circumstances we would, of course, consider any offer of an arrangement which might be made. Whether or not it would lead to full membership would, of course, depend upon the nature of the offer of association.
Question—Would you expect that the terms on which this interim associate-membership could be transformed into full membership should be spelled out right in the beginning? And if so, that it would be possible to do that without knowing the time limit and agreeing at least upon the general terms of the final arrangement? If both the time limit and the general terms of the final agreement would have to be known in advance, would this not entail the risk of having as long and as complicated negotiations as those that took place in 1961–62?
Mr. Heath: These questions themselves demonstrate some of the difficulties in trying to find a suitable arrangement of a kind such as association. Those who have been examining this problem in Europe have, I think, come more and more to the conclusion that if such an association is to include arrangements which will satisfy all the members of the Six as well as the United Kingdom, it would be necessary to have something which is, in fact, the equivalent of full membership.
Question—In your opinion, would the terms of a switchover into full membership have to be stated right away or could they be left in a vague form for further negotiations?
Mr. Heath: As the members of the Community have been prevented from completing the negotiations for full membership, it is
difficult to imagine that they would be led to agree on offering the United Kingdom a definite date for full membership as part of an arrangement for association. It would therefore seem that that would have to be negotiated later.
Question—Would it be acceptable for Britain, in your opinion, if both date and terms were left in abeyance?
Mr. Heath: One cannot form a judgment on that without seeing what exactly is in the arrangement.
Question—But if the three conditions which you have set up both before the Commons and now are generally accepted, could you tell us what kind of interim arrangement would Britain favour, taking into consideration the fact that Mr. Hallstein and President Kennedy have recently agreed in Washington on the necessity of such an interim arrangement, it being always understood that full membership must be the final aim? Could you tell us what kind of interim association would be in the interest of Britain's future full membership? Would it be an association according to Article 238 of the Rome Treaty or a Customs Union, or a commercial arrangement between the United Kingdom and the Common Market, or even the E.F.T.A. and Common Market? Or would it be simply the kind of association which already exists between the United Kingdom and the Coal and Steel Community? What can you tell us about this?
Mr. Heath: I don't think I can give you a specific indication of what the nature of the arrangement ought to be. It is an academic matter unless one considers what is acceptable to the Six as well as to ourselves. This presents a very large number of problems.
Question—Would you consider that there could be a temporary arrangement which would work only for industrial goods leaving the whole agricultural problem, which presented most difficulties for the final membership, excluded completely? Something similar to the E.F.T.A. arrangement?
Mr. Heath: I cannot visualise a purely industrial customs union arrangement being acceptable to all the members of the Community. Therefore the question is academic.
Question—You cannot visualise an arrangement that would be limited to industrial goods only?
Mr. Heath: I can visualise such an arrangement but I cannot visualise that it will be acceptable to all the members of the Community. If we are going to deal with this present situation we must be realistic. As we have seen that full membership for the United Kingdom has been vetoed by one member of the Community, we have got to ask ourselves what sort of alternative arrangement will be acceptable, if any, and recognise that it will not be acceptable in any case unless it is always justifiable on economic grounds. I cannot believe that some members of the Community are prepared to see an arrangement which is applied only to industrial goods and does not consider any agricultural element.
Question—But can't you visualise an interim arrangement that would be almost the same as
full membership except the political arrangement, and it would then be called an associate membership?
Mr. Heath: There is no indication at the moment that this would be acceptable to all members of the Six.
Question—After France's decision to suspend negotiations for Britain's entry, some of her partners have shown a certain reluctance to go ahead with decisions for which agreement in principle already existed. As you hope that Britain will be one day herself a member of E.E C., would you not be willing to state that it is in Britain's interest also if the Common Market machinery continues to run smoothly even while the United Kingdom is not a member?
Mr. Heath: These are internal matters of the Community policy which the members of the Community must decide for themselves. During the negotiations we went to great lengths not to slow up any of the development of the Community. Indeed the Community took many decisions earlier than it would otherwise have done because of the negotiations being carried on with Britain. This particularly applies to its overseas commercial relations. But it was quite apparent at the end of the negotiations that, as each of them in fact said, five countries of the Community as well as ourselves and the Commonwealth had suffered a very great shock in seeing the negotiations broken up as they were by the French Government. We have no desire to see the Community damaged: exactly the reverse.
Question—In the report just published by the Commission of the Common Market on the Brussels negotiation, there is one rather striking sentence: "The United Kingdom's application for entry meant for her the obligation to accept not only the Treaty but the important progress made since the Treaty has been signed, and it is on this progress that the discussion has sometimes been the most difficult". In view of the fact that such progress will continue during the coming years before Britain will become a full member, does this not mean that at that time it will be even more difficult for Britain to accept the progress of the Community, unless in the meantime she herself has adapted her economic structure, including agriculture, and including trade regulations and tariff levels, to those of the Common Market? What kind of measures of adaptation would you contemplate in order to meet these requirements?
Mr. Heath: As far as the progress of the Community is concerned, we accepted the very important steps which had already been taken under the Treaty of Rome. We accepted the reduction in the level of internal tariffs which would have been made at the moment of our entry. That means that if we had become members on the 1st of January, 1964, we would have accepted immediately a 60 per cent. reduction in all our tariffs with the countries of the Community. As far as the Economic Union provisions of the Treaty were concerned, we found no difficulties about the progress made here, except in one or two cases which could quite easily have been
dealt with by administrative means. In the case of the common agricultural policy, we had accepted the policy for the Common Market period at the same time putting forward some proposals for supplementing this policy. When the negotiations were broken up, we were dealing with the question of the transitional arrangements by which we would have changed over the British system to the Community system. Moreover, on the question of the renegotiation of the association of overseas countries and territories under Part 4 of the Treaty of Rome we saw no difficulties about the new Convention. We therefore took the view in the negotiations that not only should we do nothing to slow up the progress of the Community but also that we should accept by far the greater part of the arrangements which have been made under the Treaty of Rome. Of course, if Community policy differs more and more from that of our own and the other E.F.T.A. countries, it will become more and more difficult to find solutions should there be further negotiations. The objectives of the Community and the E.F.T.A. countries should therefore be not only to do nothing which will damage each other's interests but also to avoid moving further apart wherever possible. This requires constant consultation and the willingness on both sides to take the necessary measures to ensure this result.
Question—You mean consultation with the Six?
Mr. Heath: Constant consultation between the Six and ourselves.
Question—And does it also mean that the British Government contemplates internal economic measures in order to be ready on the very day when Britain will at last be the full member she is entitled to be?
Mr. Heath: We shall do our best to carry out the policies which I have just outlined. At the same time you cannot expect us, where particular national interests are at stake, to make changes in our policies which may place an undue burden upon our economy without having the economic advantages which come from being a member of a large community.
Question—But aren't there certain changes that are more or less being planned for other reasons? There was some discussion that the agricultural subsidies policy may perhaps be changed? And this would be in a certain sense an adaptation to a final change?
Mr. Heath: Where policies are being adjusted for other reasons, that, of course, is a different position. The Minister of Agriculture has already announced that in the case of agricultural policies he will want to examine them to see whether adaptations are now desirable.
Question—May we now examine some political aspects of the matter. Today it is obvious that there were not only economic reasons but also, and to a large extent, political ones to General de Gaulle's decision. Is it not surprising that during 18 months of economic negotiations there was no real attempt made either by Britain or by France—the two European nuclear powers—to agree upon a common policy in matters of defence and nuclear
strategy, while it was clear that Britain, once admitted, would automatically have become a member of the planned Political Organisation of the Community?
Mr. Heath: On April 10 last in the Western European Union ministerial meeting in London I made a very full and clear declaration of what our views were about the political developments in Europe. That was then published as a White Paper and I think it takes up some eight pages. This included the view that as political arrangements in Europe developed, a common view about defence policy would emerge. When I made this statement in the Western European Union it was welcomed by the ministers present and there was no indication then that these views were not acceptable.
Question—But don't you think that in view of the obvious differences in strategic and nuclear conceptions between France and Britain, especially towards N.A.T.O. and the United State's, the two countries should not have relied simply upon their mutual willingness to co-ordinate these policies once Britain became a member of E.E.C.? Would it not have been preferable to explore in advance whether and how such a co-ordination could actually take place? In fact, how would it have been possible to reconcile divergent policies inside the same political Union?
Mr. Heath: We find that the greater part of N.A.T.O. and the greater part of Europe accept our views, which are that Europe should be an equal partner with the United States in the N.A.T.O. alliance. In so far as these views are shared, it would not have been difficult to reach harmony But if the alternative view is that Europe should become a third force moving mare and more away from the western alliance and from partnership with the United States, then of course there is a direct conflict of views about the part which Europe should play in the defence of the West.
Question—Are you sure that General de Gaulle's aim is really to build up what you call a third force in Europe? As far as we know, he has, never given such formulation to his views and he always came out in favour of the broad purposes of the Atlantic alliance, even though, he had suggested changes in the organisation.
Mr. Heath: We are not clear about his position, but we are quite clear about our position.
Question—It is true that the Five share your views on Atlantic strategy. However, since the sixth member, France, is like Britain a nuclear Power, don't you think that the coordination of their defence policies is at least as important as the agreement of the other Five with Britain and the co-ordination of their defence policy with France?
Mr. Heath: Would you care to develop your idea?
Question—According to certain interpretations of de Gaulle's statement during, his Press conference, France's position could be explained by a certain apprehension that England's entry might be the preamble for
dragging the European community into a larger Atlantic community in which it would be eventually dissolved. In such circles, Britain was described as a possible "Trojan horse" that would prepare "Anglo-Saxon" economic hegemony over Europe. Even the American Trade Expansion Act was met by such circles with a certain suspicion as being a possible weapon in such a "grand design". What is your reaction towards this?
Mr. Heath: There is a misunderstanding here which can be attributed to using the same word—community—in two different senses. The European Community is a structural organisation based on the Treaty of Rome with the appropriate institutions described in the Treaty. When people speak of the Atlantic Community, they are not thinking of a structural organisation created in a similar way but of what is really a partnership of countries working together on the two sides of the Atlantic. We believe that this partnership works best when each side of the Atlantic is of equal strength and status. Our object in negotiating with the Community was to see whether it was possible to strengthen the Community by enlarging it. In fact Europe can only be strong enough to be an equal partner with the United States if it contains Britain and the other two or three smaller countries who wished to join it as full members. If it had been possible to create an enlarged Community there would have been a much greater chance of the partnership being an equally balanced one. It was not our purpose that countries outside of Europe should join the Community, which must grow and develop as an organisation in its own right. We believe that the proposed negotiations in the Kennedy plan for the reduction of tariffs between the two sides of the Atlantic should be carried out to enable trade to be increased amongst the industrialised countries of the western world. This is not in order to weaken the Community but to allow both the Community and the United States each to become economically stronger as partners in the Western Alliance.
Question—There are people on the Continent, especially in France, who say that it may be wise to wait until the results of the 1964 general elections in the United Kingdom are known before making a decision concerning her entry. Proceeding in such a manner, once it will be known who will be in power, it will become clear also whether such a party is a real supporter of the entry or not. During a recent radio and TV interview in Germany, M. Spaak spoke on the following lines: "Nous ne ferons rien d'essentiel avant les élections anglaises, sauf peut-être garder un contact politique avec la Grand-Bretagne et faire en sorte que, du point de vue économique, la politique que la Grande-Bretagne et la Communauté vent devoir faire ne s'éloigne pas trop l'une de l'autre et ce afin de ménager et de garder toutes les chances pour l'avenir". What would you care to say on this especially as regards M. Spaak's reference to the British general elections?
Mr. Heath: General elections in Britain are an internal matter. If one joins the Community one does so in order to make it a living organisation. Therefore the members must accept changes of government in each other's
countries when they come together with the results of them.
Question—However everybody knows that the Labour Party is not in favour of Britain's entry or would want to set up conditions which would render such an entry impossible?
Mr. Heath: But if Parliament were to ratify the Treaty of Rome, together with any arrangements made during negotiations, it would not be in accordance with our constitutional custom for the Labour Party to repeal them.
Question—How optimistic are you as regards the future?
Mr. Heath: The future in Britain's relations with the European Economic Community does not rest with Britain alone.
Royal Navy
Ships (Visits)
asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will arrange for one or more of Her Majesty's ships to visit Bangor and Donaghadee, County Down, during the coming summer season.
Subject to overriding operational needs arrangements have been made for H.M. Ships "Yarmouth" and "Hardy" of the 20th Frigate Squadron to visit Bangor, County Down from 12th-15th July next.
Agriculture, Fisheries And Food
Argentine Beef Imports (Talks)
asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he intends to start discussions with the Argentine Government on the subject of Argentine beef imports.
The talks will begin on Friday, 5th April, in Buenos Aires.
Meat Imports
asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will arrange to publish a month in advance the projected arrivals of chilled and frozen beef and lamb so that farmers and the meat trade may know what to expect and the public may be assured that a proper check is being exerted on imported supplies to avoid the home market being undermined.
Information on shipping schedules of chilled and frozen meat from the Commonwealth and South America is already published in sections of the Trade Press. My Department produces a weekly summary of these forecast arrivals for up to six weeks ahead, which can be made available to the Press or other interested bodies.
River And Catchment Boards (Precepts)
asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are the best estimates available to him
| River of Catchment Board | Precept 1961–62 | Estimated Precept 1962–63 | Increase | Decrease | ||
| £ | £ | Per cent. | Per cent. | |||
| Avon and Dorset | … | … | 99,392 | 99,600 | 0·2 | |
| Bristol Avon | … | … | 165,000 | 195,000 | 18·2 | |
| Cheshire | … | … | 125,920 | 140,000 | 11·2 | |
| Cornwall | … | … | 100,510 | 96,400 | 4·1 | |
| Cumberland | … | … | 52,331 | 51,700 | 1·2 | |
| Dee and Clwyd | … | … | 92,793 | 95,600 | 3·0 | |
| Devon | … | … | 141,359 | 155,500 | 10·0 | |
| East Suffolk and Norfolk | … | … | 163,060 | 177,300 | 8·7 | |
| East Sussex | … | … | 105,605 | 115,000 | 8·9 | |
| Essex | … | … | 481,997 | 515,800 | 7·0 | |
| Glamorgan | … | … | 156,590 | 171,700 | 9·6 | |
| Great Ouse | … | … | 186,003 | 198,100 | 6·5 | |
| Gwynedd | … | … | 70,930 | 86,600 | 22·1 | |
| Hampshire | … | … | 62,184 | 80,800 | 29·9 | |
| Hull and East Yorkshire | … | … | 53,177 | 65,700 | 23·5 | |
| Isle of Wight | … | … | 17,200 | 19,000 | 10·5 | |
| Kent | … | … | 380,000 | 440,000 | 15·8 | |
| Lancashire | … | … | 263,091 | 281,500 | 7·0 | |
| Lincolnshire | … | … | 136,300 | 141,600 | 3·9 | |
| Mersey | … | … | 571,803 | 568,300 | 0·6 | |
| Nene | … | … | 74,262 | 74,300 | 0·1 | |
| Northumberland and Tyneside | … | … | 68,000 | 68,000 | — | — |
| Severn | … | … | 197,090 | 239,900 | 21·7 | |
| Somerset | … | … | 128,454 | 149,700 | 16·5 | |
| South West Wales | … | … | 83,557 | 84,200 | 0·8 | |
| Trent | … | … | 889,939 | 914,100 | 2·7 | |
| Usk | … | … | 68,000 | 80,000 | 17·6 | |
| Wear and Tees | … | … | 95,070 | 95,300 | 0·2 | |
| Welland | … | … | 45,208 | 47,600 | 5·3 | |
| West Sussex | … | … | 125,000 | 147,000 | 17·6 | |
| Wye | … | … | 29,496 | 44,600 | 51·2 | |
| Yorkshire Ouse | … | … | 382,000 | 386,300 | 1·1 | |
| Lee Conservancy | … | … | 392,940 | 427,600 | 8·8 | |
| Thames Conservancy | … | … | 585,000 | 668,000 | 14·2 | |
Slaughterhouses
asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many slaughterhouses throughout England and Wales do not at present conform to the requirements of the Slaughterhouses Act 1958.
The new slaughterhouse standards have been brought into force by Statutory Instrument in all but 125 local authority districts, containing
of the precepts being levied by individual River and Catchment Boards in England and Wales for 1962–63; in each case what percentage increase or decrease this represents on the precepts levied for 1961–62; and if he will publish these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The percentage changes between actual precepts for 1961–62 and estimated precept figures for 1962–63 sent to the Ministry by river and catchment boards are set out below:53 public and 299 licensed private slaughterhouses, some of which may in fact already comply.
Hospitals
Henry Gauvain Hospital
asked the Minister of Health what the future of the Henry Gauvain Hospital building and grounds is to be.
Most of the buildings and grounds are no longer required for hospital purposes; arrangements for their disposal are being put in hand.
Ministry Of Health
Drugs (Sub-Committee's Report)
asked the Minister of Health whether the Joint Sub-Committee on Safety of Drugs has yet reported; and if he will make a statement.
Yes. The Report, which is endorsed by the Standing Medical Advisory Committees in England and Wales and in Scotland, has been presented to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself. The Report proposes that the Health Ministers should appoint an independent expert Committee on Safety of Drugs which, with the assistance of three subcommittees, would advise, in the light of current medical and scientific knowledge, on the adequacy of toxicity tests of a new drug before it is submitted to clinical trial and on the adequacy of clinical trials before it is released for general use, and would arrange for the collection of data about any adverse effects found subsequently. We accept these recommendations and are taking steps to put the scheme into effect.We have received assurances that the co-operation of the pharmaceutical industry and of the medical profession will be forthcoming. The details of the scheme will be worked out in full consultation with the industry, with a view to speed and efficiency of operation.Two members of the Sub-Committee (my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead) and Mr. Grosset) have signed a Note of Dissent, suggesting that a voluntary scheme would not meet the need and that the law relating to drugs requires comprehensive amendment in other respects. The Government have in hand a review of the law relating to drugs generally, with a view to legislation. This review will be carried forward; but the preparation of legislation on this large and complex subject is bound to take time. The Government consider that action on the safety of drugs should not wait upon this legislation, nor do they agree that a voluntary scheme, on the lines recommended by the majority of the Sub-Committee, will be ineffective.The Report and Note are being published today. Copies are in the Vote Office.
Employment
Unemployment (Statistics)
asked the Minister of Labour whether he will publish statistics on unemployment in the form of a seasonally adjusted index which would enable basic changes in the employment situation to be differentiated from seasonal chances.
The estimates of normal seasonal movements in the monthly statistics of persons wholly-unemployed (excluding school leavers), which have been published by my Department since March, 1960, are helpful in interpreting basic changes in the unemployment position. Figures adjusted only for normal seasonal movements can however be misleading because they may move erratically from month to month as a result of random and short-term influences, including abnormal seasonal factors such as the recent severe weather.It is necessary to remove all these short-term fluctuations from such adjusted figures, in order to discern the basic trend underlying the statistics. Completely satisfactory methods have not yet been developed but my Department is carrying out a careful study to see what might usefully be done.
Telephone Service
North Down
asked the Postmaster-General how many applications for telephones were outstanding in the North Down constituency on 24th March, 1962, and 24th March, 1963, or on the nearest convenient dates thereto.
On the 31st March, 1962, there were 77 applications on the waiting list and 235 under inquiry or being met. The figures for 31st March, 1963, were 44 and 257.
asked the Postmaster-General by what date it is expected that the subscriber trunk dialling system will have been extended to include all private telephone subscribers in the North Down constituency.
As my hon. Friend knows, subscriber trunk dialling is already available for the subscribers in North Down connected to the Belfast exchange system. I plan to provide the service at Bangor this year, and at Holywood, Dundonald and Ballynahinch during 1965 and 1966. I cannot yet say when it will be possible to make the service available to the remaining subscribers in North Down.
asked the Postmaster-General what amount has been allocated for the extension and improvement of telephone facilities in the North Down constituency for the next 12 months.
I expect to spend about £340,000 on telephone plant in North Down during 1963–64.
Post Office
Parcel Post (North Down)
asked the Postmaster-General what proposals his Department has to reduce the present delays in the delivery of parcels posted in England to addresses in the North Down constituency.
Every effort is being made in collaboration with the railways to reduce delays to parcels en route to Northern Ireland. I understand there has recently been a marked improvement in the position which we shall do our best to maintain.
Ministry Of Power
Steel Industry
asked the Minister of Power if, in view of the approval by the European Coal and Steel Community of co-operative arrangements between steel companies to avoid duplication of plant, machinery and equipment, he is prepared to stimulate, through his control of the Iron and Steel Board's investment programme, further collaboration with certain sections of the British steel industry.
It is the Iron and Steel Board's statutory duty to exercise a general supervision over the iron and steel industry, with a view to promoting the efficient economic and adequate supply under competitive conditions of iron and steel products. This calls for the avoidance of wasteful duplication, and the case described on page 23 of its Annual Report for 1959 shows that the Board has this point of view very much in mind.
National Fuel Policy
asked the Minister of Power if, in view of the increased imports of oil and the estimated future increase of methane gas, and taking into account the proposals of the National Economic Development Council, he will now set up a board of all fuel and power representatives with a view to formulating a national fuel policy.
No.
Trade And Commerce
Production And Retail Sales
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will publish regional statistics covering production and retail sales.
Regional statistics are published in the reports on the Censuses of Production and Distribution; short period statistics cannot be provided for different regions, since many firms operating in more than one region do not give separate figures in their monthly or quarterly returns, and since the number of shopkeepers completing monthly returns of retail sales is insufficient as a basis for statistics of this kind.
Consumer Expenditure
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will publish statistics on consumer expenditure intentions with particular reference to durable goods, as is the practice of the Government of the United States of America.
My Department keeps under review the experience of these statistics in the United States of America, but I am not yet convinced that, in the circumstances of this country, similar satistics would provide a guide to the trend of consumers' expenditure which would be sufficiently reliable and trustworthy to justify the cost of collection.
Productive Capacity
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will publish statistics on the utilisation of productive capacity covering all major industries.
No. Only in a limited number of industries does capacity bear to output a direct relationship capable of unique measurement. In others the possibility of variations in industrial practice would necessitate estimation so sweeping as to detract seriously from the usefulness of the measurement.
Outstanding Orders
asked the President of the of the Board of Trade whether he will amend the statistics published on outstanding orders in such a way as to provide a more detailed breakdown by industries.
Consideration is being given to this possibility. It is hoped gradually to extend both the coverage and the analysis of the figures as far as may be consistent with industrial practice and commercial security.
Indices Of Production
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will amend the published statistics in such a way as to provide a clear indication of the extent to which changes in indices are affected by the number of firms involved.
No. The primary purposes of indices of production is to measure changes in the national totals. The number of returns collected for this purpose is very large and changes only slowly, allowances being made each month for these few which are received too late for inclusion in the index calculation. Since the returns are often collected on a sample basis or from individual factories an analysis according to the number of firms concerned is impracticable.
Railways
Losses
asked the Minister of Transport what is the total amount of loss sustained by British Railways since nationalisation until the present day; and what is the total amount of money advanced to British Railways by the Government during that period.
The accumulated revenue deficits of British Railways for the years 1948 to 1962 inclusive amount to about £874 million. Advances made to the British Transport Commission by the Government towards revenue deficits comprised £302 million loans and £392 million grants. In addition, net Exchequer loans to the Commission for capital purposes amounted to £691 million.Since 1st January, 1963, £20 million grants have been made to the British Railways Board on account of deficit accrued in 1963.
National Finance
Crown Properties (Revaluation)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects the valuation of Crown Properties to be completed; and, if this is not completed in time for Crown Properties to make an equitable contribution to the rate burden for 1963–64, whether he will consider applying some notional figure of uplift to these properties based on existing values, on which their contribution in respect of 1963–64 could be made.
The Revaluation of Crown Properties is now proceeding and the Treasury Valuer expects to complete his valuations during the current Financial Year (1963–64). All Rating Authorities in England and Wales have been informed that contributions in lieu of rates will be made on the revised figures during the Rating Year 1963–64.
Central Statistical Office
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he proposes to take to strengthen the Central Statistical Office in order to provide the up-to-date and comprehensive information required for the efficient planning of economic growth.
The Central Statistical Office has already been authorised to recruit more statistical staff, and increases have also been approved for other branches of the Government Statistical Services. So far it has not proved possible to fill all the vacancies, but arrangements for recruiting suitable stall who would receive further training in statistics thereafter are under consideration.
Index Of Production
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will increase the number of headings used in the production index from the present figure of 22, in order to provide detailed information equivalent to that available in Germany.
The purpose of an index of production is to give an overall measure of change in the volume of output. Industry details are provided only to give some indication of the make-up of the total change. The industries shown in the index of production are grouped in accordance with the Standard Industrial Classification; any further subdivision of those groups is unnecessary since actual figures of the production in individual industries are given in the Monthly Digest of Statistics.
Computers And Tabulating Machines (Contracts)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether, when ordering computers and tabulating machines on behalf of the War Office, he will give consideration to those manufactured in the North Down constituency, in view of the high rate of unemployment in Northern Ireland;(2) whether, when ordering computers and tabulating machines on behalf of the Admiralty, he will give consideration to those manufactured in the North Down constituency, in view of the high rate of unemployment in Northern Ireland.
It is the practice to seek competitive tenders for computers and tabulating machines required by H.M. Government, and the firm which has manufacturing capacity in Northern Ireland is always invited to tender.
Civil Defence Bounties (Tax)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the concern felt by civil defence volunteers and by many civil defence corps authorities at the Government's decision that the bounties of from £10 to £15 to be earned by volunteers should be subject to Income Tax; and if, in view of the negligible amount of revenue involved and the importance of the success of the reorganised Civil Defence Corps, he will relieve Civil Defence bounties from liability for Income Tax.
These payments are liable to tax under the general Income Tax law and, I am afraid, I could not agree to recommend the legislation which would be necessary to exempt them.