asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make available to the National Buildings Record those architectural photographs in the possession of his Department not now available for public inspection at the National Buildings Record.

Yes, Sir.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Will he bear in mind that there are many architectural photographs of great use to the National Buildings Record in the possession of other public bodies such as the British Travel and Holidays Association? Will he use his offices to get those put into the National Buildings Record?

Yes, Sir. I will certainly look at the point which my hon. Friend has raised.

asked the Minister of Public Buildings and Works whether, in view of the fact that spring has now officially arrived, he will provide a companion for the pelican in St. James's Park.

I hope that Paul will not be lonely much longer as His Highness the Ameer of Bahawalpur, has very generously offered to send him companions.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great joy that this announcement will give to the pelican in the park? Has he noticed the indications in recent days of a desire for companionship? May I assume from what my right hon. Friend has just said that he is possessed of knowledge, which was denied to his predecessors, about the sex of pelicans? If he is not possessed of such knowledge, would he consider obtaining a larger number of pelicans so that the law of average might thereby give nature a better chance of taking its course?

It is difficult to find out the sex of pelicans, but so far we have been fairly accurate. It is rather an academic question because no eggs have been laid, much less hatched, by any of these birds, and we have been keeping them since the time of Charles II.

asked the Minister of Public Bui ding and Works if he will devise an index of building work in progress and completed compiled on a comparable basis for each month, or convenient period, and so constructed as to show the amount of work being done and completed in the main branches of the industry.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his suggestion. We will bear it in mind in the consideration we are now giving to the improvement of statistics about building work.

I am very glad to hear that Answer and I hope that the Minister will pursue the matter with vigour. Is he aware that it is not much use getting the building industry to be much more scientific if the actual administrative controls are not equally scientific? Will he pursue this question with energy?

Yes, Sir. We have recently set up an economic intelligence unit at the Ministry and the need is probably for better local information so that the trend of the load of work in different parts of the country can be seen more clearly.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he has taken to secure the co-operation of the building industry in increasing the amount of standardisation of components used in building, and with what results.

I am in constant touch with all sections of the building and building materials industries and with the associated professions on this as on all matters affecting the construction industries.

As a result of the first statement on dimensional co-ordination which I issued in February the British Standards Institution is preparing draft British Standards on floor to floor heights and on staircases. I will be issuing further statements on dimensional co-ordination in due course.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that among small builders and the brick-making industry there is considerable opposition to proposals which have been made? What is he doing to reconcile those interests with those of the makers of prefabricated buildings?

I have not found this opposition. In my statement yesterday, when I was opening a very good new brickworks, I said that I saw no reason to change the size of bricks and that we could build up our dimensional pattern, as it were, without altering the size of bricks.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that one of the con- clusions of the Report on the Production of Building Components in Shipyards was that local authorities might, with considerable advantage, form themselves into housing consortia? Would he agree that standardisation of component parts would be very desirable in shipbuilding areas in order that shipyards with their spare capacity might more quickly play a part in the housing drive?

I am sure that there are many variations in the size of components which have nothing whatever to do with design. I think that standardisation will help in all these directions.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether officials advising on the interior decoration of embassies abroad are specially qualified or have refresher courses; and how many qualified women are employed on this duty.

The architects responsible for designing and maintaining embassies and high commissioners' residences abroad are also responsible for their interior decoration, and work in conjunction with furnishing experts in our Supplies Division. Two women on the Chief Architect's staff, who hold the diploma of decoration at London University, are available to give expert advice. My right hon. Friend also has the benefit of the advice of an Advisory Committee on Decoration and Furnishing, appointed by his predecessor in 1960, which includes two women amongst its members.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, in spite of these apparently excellent arrangements, when one travels around our embassies and high commissions one is struck by the lack of imagination and appreciation of historical circumstances which might have helped in the decoration of the house, and that perhaps a slightly stronger feminine element in his Department might be helpful?

It is always difficult to meet everybody's taste in matters of this kind, but I hope that my hon. Friend will pay a visit to the embassy in Warsaw, which is now being furnished, as soon as it is completed.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what increase in sales of guide books and postcards of historic buildings has taken place during the last twelve months.

In 1962 nearly £125,000 was received from sales of guide books, postcards and colour slides at ancient monuments in my care, an increase of £19,000 over the previous year.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that very pleasing reply. Will he continue to improve and increase these publications, bearing in mind their highly important effect on the tourist trade?

I should have added that the figure includes sales at historic buildings as well as ancient monuments. I quite agree that these are important. We have increased sales quite dramatically over the past few years.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what increased public access he proposes to allow to newly restored parts of Hampton Court.

Two late Tudor rooms, near the Wolsey Suite, are to be repaired this year, and then opened to the public as part of the tour of the State Apartments. A small collection of exhibits associated with Hampton Court Palace will be shown in these rooms and the adjoining Wolsey Suite. The Cumberland Suite, on the east side of Clock Court, is also to be restored this year, and the public will be admitted when work is completed.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he continue to publicise Hampton Court, which is as historic a palace as any in Europe?

Yes, Sir. I agree with my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what operatic, musical or theatrical perform- ances are planned in 1963 at historic buildings under his control.

Arrangements have been made for performances of various kinds during 1963 at the Tower of London; Edinburgh Castle; St. Andrew's Cathedral; Audley End, Saffron Walden; Old Sarum, Wiltshire; and Pevensey Castle, Sussex. I will, with permission, circulate the details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether these include any son et lumière performances?

There will be a season of son et lumière at the Tower of London from the end of May to the end of September.

Did i hear the Minister mention any Welsh places among those names?

Unfortunately, no; but we shall always be delighted to receive proposals for occasions of this kind which are in keeping with the great historic Welsh castles and other buildings.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made in the design of new Government buildings for Bridge Street and Parliament Street, Westminster.

Sir William Holford is engaged on an appreciation of the site and an outline plan for its development.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that news, which will be welcome to all hon. Members. Can he tell us whether some sort of design will be available at an early stage for hon. Members to see?

I hope that Sir William Holford's outline proposals will be ready during the summer. I will, of course, keep the House fully informed of the way in which this is developing.

Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to the Leader of the House, and, if necessary, to the Prime Minister, the necessity of setting up, in co-operation with Mr. Speaker, an accommodation committee—a committee of Members of the House—so that we shall not be faced in the end with a building that we do not like and accommodation not suitable to us? Could not we have a committee of Members of this House to watch over the building of this Parliamentary precinct, in exactly the same way as we had a committee set up under Lord Winterton during the rebuilding of the Palace of Westminster, after it was bombed? I am sure that he will be seized of that.

I shall convey the hon. Gentleman's views to the appropriate quarters. I am sure that we are all aiming at the same objective.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the archaic practice of Members of Parliament having to dictate correspondence to secretaries seated at their elbows, who might usefully be replaced by dictating machines, installed at Government expense, in each room used by Members for dictating in such a new building?

I shall consider that.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many cars will be accommodated in the new parking facilities to be provided as part of the major reconstruction now taking place at the London Zoo in Regent's Park.

We are informed by the Zoo authorities that no new parking facilities, apart from minor additions, are being provided.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise what alarming news that is? The reconstruction of London Zoo is designed, after all, to increase the number of visitors. Would he not agree that in this sphere where the Government have decisive influence, they ought to be showing some anxiety to help solve the urban traffic problem?

Our responsibility in this is that of landlords to the Zoo. It is for the Zoo authority to work out its plans and for the planning authority, the London County Council, to approve the scale of parking facilities provided.

Does that mean that the Government have not been consulted? If they have been consulted, what recommendations have they made about the need to provide parking provision to allow for up to 2 million visitors in every year?

This is particularly a matter for the London County Council as the planning authority. Our concern is only as landlords.

Does not this go further than that? Is not my hon. Friend aware that the scandalously inadequate parking facilities are over-employed and that the overflow goes into a Royal Park—Regent's Park? Is not my hon. Friend directly responsible for that?

No Sir. We provide car parks at Gloucester Slips and there is room there for about 400 cars. That can take all the cars necessary at the moment.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proportion of his staff is situated in Scotland; and whether he will consider further dispersal from London in conformity with the declared policy of Her Majesty's Government.

About one-twelfth of the staff of the Department in the United Kingdom work in Scotland. We are examining the organisation of the Department following the transfer of responsibility for works for the Service Departments and intend that all works in Scotland shall be designed and controlled in Scotland unless there are exceptional reasons for other arrangements.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that in principle Government Departments should give a lead in the policy of dispersal of Government employees from London to the provinces? Will he give an assurance that his Department will be one of the pioneers in the advocacy of that principle?

Yes, Sir. That is, of course, a matter which we are examining carefully, and it certainly is our intention to do that.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what provision for deep shelters is being made from public funds at the Royal Palaces for protection in the event of nuclear attack.

None, Sir.

Does the Minister's Answer imply that the Government are writing off not only the mass of the civilian population but what are commonly described as the "top people"? Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that in the event of a nuclear attack the civilian population and Royalty will be protected adequately by the provision of deep air raid shelters?

The Answer implies exactly what is says, that no burden is being placed on public funds. That was the Question which the hon. Gentleman asked. If he wishes to ask other Questions, he should put them on the Order Paper.

Is the Minister aware that I have repeatedly tried to get details of the provision made in the Civil Estimates, and the right hon. Gentleman repeatedly refuses to give detailed information?

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works (1) what percentage of the gross national product in Great Britain is devoted to council housing; and what was the proportion ten years ago;

(2) what percentage of the gross national product in Great Britain is directed to housing; what was the pro- portion ten years ago; and what information he has from the Organisation for European Co-operation and Development as to the approximate proportion in other West European countries.

The percentage of the gross national product in the United Kingdom devotes to housing was 3·5 in both 1952 and 1962. The percentage devoted to council housing was 2·5 in 1952 and 1·2 in 1962. With permission I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT figures for the precentages of gross national product devoted in 1960 to housing in seventeen Western European countries, taken from a United Nations publication.

As more than 18 million people in Britain receive less than £15 10s. a week, and therefore cannot afford to buy their own houses, how does the Parliamentary Secretary advise them to find homes if council housing is cut in this way? Regarding the percentage, is not it true that we are bottom of the "league" of the ten countries listed in the O.E.C.D, Report for November, 1962, and that some countries spend twice as much as we do in this proportion? Surely the Minister must have some regard for the massive human suffering caused to millions of families which cannot find homes of their own?

I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government will be making a statement shortly. He has already announced that local authorities with urgent housing needs will be allowed to build as many houses this year as they can. I do not think that the figures entirely bear out what the hon. Gentleman says. They are not strictly comparable. For example, the international definition of expenditure devoted to construction lays down that expenditure on conversions should be included, but in the United Kingdom this has not been done. Regarding the final point put by the hon. Gentleman, 66,000 more houses were completed in. 1962 than in 1952 and I think that what matters is the total number of houses completed.

Are not we impressively high in the Teague of home ownership?

We are top of the league.

Whether we are top of the league in home ownership is entirely another matter. There is the difficulty about whether this Ministry—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ask a Question."]—I am coming to the question—should answer this Question. Does not the Minister appreciate, from the point of view of public policy, that local authorities allocate houses on the usual priorities, whereas whether a person owns a home depends at present on the length of his purse? Is not there a question of public policy in this and is not the Ministry thoroughly ashamed?

I think that we are straying into the territory of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will give further details of the proposed use of shipyards for the making of prefabricated dwellings, particularly their approximate cost, the time taken in their construction, the procedure for their allocation, and the number of types of dwellings.

I can add nothing at present to what is said in the Report which I have published on the Produc- tion of Building Components in Shipyards, and to the replies I gave to Questions in the House on 30th April.

Is the Minister satisfied that the points in my Question are entirely covered by the statement to which he refers?

I do not suppose that any Question is entirely covered by the previous statement of a Minister. I indicated in my Answer that the questions the hon. Gentleman is asking about cost, design and marketing are problems raised by the Report which will be dealt with initially at the three inquiry centres which I have set up.

May we anticipate another statement from the Minister? Surely the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that it is not enough merely to have the Report of the architect; that we want to follow it up and see the practical application of marketing and the rest; and that we wish to know whether the Minister proposes to consider the question of the long-run which I mentioned last week, or possible subsidies in the early days?

I am not disputing that. It was not a question of the architect's Report only. Quantity surveyors, a naval architect and others were concerned. I believe that we shall be able to judge the problems better when we get the shipyard owners, members of the building industry and representatives of local authorities together round the table to discuss the possibilities.

May I ask whether it is the intention of Departments such as the Ministries of Health and Education to guide organisations like the regional hospital boards in making inquiries about how these matters are progressing because that would be very helpful?

That is certainly a possibility. In these matters I am in close touch with my right hon. Friends concerned with building.

Regarding the present impetus for more prefabricated buildings, whether constructed in shipyards or anywhere else, is the Minister aware of the great importance of the need to control design to make certain that there will be no loss of architectural features and that we shall not have drabness and sameness about these houses which are to be produced quickly, because that would be criticised by many people?

I have repeatedly emphasised the importance of design. That is why I believe that it is no use for industries to go ahead with prefabrication until they have discussed the matter with their clients and have heard their views about what is wanted.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what was the total value of stores purchased in Scotland in the year 1962–63; what is the estimate for the current financial year; and what proportion of total purchases this represents in each of those years.

The figure for 1962–63 was £1,370,000 or something over 10 per cent. of the total purchases made. It is not possible to give the figures for the current financial year as many contracts have still to be let.

Is the Minister aware that we are quite pleased that at least it is over 10 per cent., but can he do even better than that?

Regarding Scotland's share in the general arrangements to help development districts, firms in these districts are invited to tender, and on all suitable occasions preference is given to them, provided that no additional expense is incurred.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how much of the building research and development undertaken by his Department is done in Scotland; and whether there has been any increase in the last five years.

When my new Directorate General of Research and Development undertakes development work i will consider how and where it can best be carried out.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that just as a policy of the dispersal of personnel from London could be carried out and helped a great det1 by the Government, so in a case of this sort Government action in ensuring that research and other establishments are set up well away from London could be of great advantage to the nation?

I agree.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how much of the £10,750,000 for building and engineering services this year will be spent in Scotland; and what will be the estimated employment provided.

About £900,000. This will be the equivalent of work for about 800 to 1,000 men throughout the year.

This is not as satisfactory as one might have hoped. Can the Minister say how it compares with last year?

If the hon. Gentleman puts that Question on the Order Paper, I will answer it. These figures, of course, relate only 10 a fairly limited part of the total expenditure of the Ministry in Scotland. This vote covers only the operations of lifts, and boilers, and painting, repairs and replacements. We try to strike a fair balance and to do as much work in Scotland as we can. But it must be related to the buildings in Scotland.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will give a list of the persons whose initials are inscribed on the rainwater heads in the new buildings in Downing Street; and who selected them.

I will with permission circulate the list in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The selection was made by the architect, Mr. Raymond Erith.

One appreciates the desire of those concerned to escape oblivion at all costs. Does the Minister realise that if Government buildings are to be cluttered up with the initials of all their transitory occupants, it will certainly mar the face of London?

I do not know about "transitory occupants". I thought that perhaps the hon. Gentleman felt that to have initials in lead was a symbol of permanence.

May I ask whether the Minister would make some slight alteration in the inscription on these rainwater heads to record the fact that today has been announced the advent of the first Labour-controlled council in Portland?

Answer.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether there has been any improvement in the sales of ancient monuments season tickets.

Yes, Sir. Sales of these season tickets, which admit the holder to all ancient monuments and historic buildings in my care, have risen from 80 in 1958–59 to over 25,000 last year.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, whether he will consider allowing sailing boats on the Serpentine.

Arrangements are being discussed with the boating contractor for making available a small number of sailing dinghies for hire on the Serpentine.

I thank my right hon. Friend very sincerely far such a satisfactory Answer which I am sure will please very many people in the country and quite a lot of hon. Members. I have tried to get this concession for thirty years. May we hope that there will not be too many baptisms by immersion? Would my right hon. Friend care to lay down provisions for a certain amount of buoyancy gear in these boats when they come into operation?

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his success after thirty years and thank him for making the original suggestion. Of course, these dinghies will be selected for their robust nature, and we shall have regard to safety requirements.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what are the attendance figures for the last five years at ancient monuments and historic buildings under his control.

Nearly 1½million more people paid for admission in 1962 than in 1958. The figures were 6,128,000 in 1958, 6,516,000 in 1959, 6,843,000 in 1960, 7,228,000 in 1961 and 7,554,000 last year.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether, in order to meet the convenience of the increasing number of visitors from abroad who are interested in this country's heritage of ancient monuments and historic buildings, he will, in suitable cases, publish guide books in foreign languages.

Yes, Sir. There are already guides in French, German and Spanish for the Tower of London; in French and German for Hampton Court; and in French for Dover Castle, Stonehenge, Edinburgh Castle and the Palace of Holyroodhouse. A guide in Italian for the Towel' of London is now in preparation.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of a publication by his Department in respect of all the listed buildings under his control? I know that this matter has been raised before and was under consideration. Can my right hon. Friend, within the context of this Question, say anything about the future?

I think that that is rather a tall order, but we will certainly consider providing guides in any appropriate language where the demand seems to exist.

In considering the question of guides, will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to ensure that guides in the Palace of Westminster are properly briefed, which is not so in many cases? Is he aware that many hon. Members are sometimes appalled by what they hear of the heritage of this noble place—

Order These people who operate as guides in the Palace do not come within the responsibility of the Minister.

On a point of order. I was asking whether the Minister would use his influence. I do not know which other Minister apart from the Minister of Public Building and Works can use his influence with the appropriate authorities of the House.

No doubt one can ask any Minister to use his influence in any direction, but not within the rules of order.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement about the fallen stone at Stonehenge.

Stone 23 fell during a gale in March the soil having been weakened by the exceptional winter weather. Fortunately it suffered no damage.

We have consulted the Ancient Monuments Board for England which has advised that before the stone is re-erected we should take the opportunity to arrange a careful archæological examination of the hole and subsoil and also consider whether it would be desirable to protect any of the other stones. When we have more information on this point we shall consult the Ancient Monuments Board again.

When restoring very ancient monuments of this character, at what point in the history of the monument is the restoration aimed?

The aim in the restoration of this particular stone will be to re-erect it as it was before. We also have to consider certain other stones which look as though they may fall at some time in the comparatively near future.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many grants have been made for the repair of outstanding historic buildings since the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, 1953, came into force.

Up to 31st March, 1963, 1,060 grants have been offered in England, Scotland and Wales. The value of these grants is just under £4¼ million.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will establish an organsiation within his Department to hire out to contractors, as protection against inclement weather, air-houses and geodetic domes, technical details of which were sent by the hon. Member for West Lothian to his development unit in February, 1963.

No, Sir, but I hope to provide more information on this subject while encouraging the industry to make its own arrangements for protection.

How can small contractors take advantage of scientific knowledge in this respect?

I think that, in the first instance, it is for the industry and its clients to make their own arrangements. I do not foresee any difficulty in this regard. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the technical information which he provided and which is now being studied by my Director-General of Research and Development in association with the acknowledged American expert on these matters, Professor Buckminster Fuller.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement on the proposal to provide barracks for the Royal Marines at Bickleigh, near Plymouth.

Accommodation is being built for one Royal Marine Commando at Bickleigh. The Royal Marines already live in a camp on the site but it comprises only temporary and sub-standard buildings.

Is the Minister aware that already about £750,000 is being spent to rehouse the Royal Marines at Plymouth and that Bickleigh, only six miles away, is on the edge of the Dart-moor National Park? Is he further aware that many amenity societies are alarmed at this proposal to put a permanent camp there? Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to avoid any costly blunder in defence again?

The first stage of this project is in progress. We have had consultations with the Devon County Council and the Royal Fine Art Commission on this. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right in drawing attention to the importance of this site. We shall be very careful to ensure that the building is not out of harmony with its surroundings. We will put up a great many trees in order to screen off the building.

Will the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman) go to Bickleigh and look for himself—

Order. There cannot be any Ministerial responsibility in this Minister to direct the steps of another hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why he allowed a film to be made in Richmond Park, giving lessons in bull-fighting, which was shown in a British Broadcasting Corporation television programme on 5th April last.

I did not.

What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking to ensure that there is no repetition of this very doubtful practice? Is he not aware that bullfighting is illegal under British law and that it is a misuse of the Royal Parks for the right hon. Gentleman to allow them to be used for this kind of thing?

The hon. Gentleman did not listen to the Answer. There will be no repetition because there has been no first instance. The hon. Gentleman is, perhaps, charging like a bull at a red flag which does not exist.

asked the Post master-General if he is aware that letters posted in London at mid-day on Friday do not reach their Alton address on Monday morning following; and what steps he is taking to improve this service.

A letter for Alton posted in London at mid-day on Friday should normally be delivered next morning. If my hon. Friend would let me have details of any instances in which this service has not been given I should be glad to look into the matter.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. However, I regret to have to inform him that since I tabled the Question he has exceeded his own record in this regard, and I shall be delighted to supply him with the facts and figures.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is represented before the transport users consultative committee in all cases where it is proposed to close railways for passengers and mails; if he offers to make increased payments for the carriage of mail in all marginal cases where such increased revenue might lead to keeping open the lines; whether he states at all such inquiries the increased cost to him and inconvenience and delay to the public if alternative road transport has to be used and what is his general policy in relation to the speedy transmission of mail in view of the Beeching Report.

The effect of a proposed railway passenger closure on the Post Office is a matter which my right hon. Friend would, if necessary, normally expect to take up direct with the British Railways Board or with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport rather than by making representations to the transport users consultative committee. But it would not be appropriate for us to make increased payments for the conveyance of mails simply to enable an uneconomic railway line to be kept open.

We are in direct consultation with the British Railways Board about the implications for the Post Office of the proposals in the recent Report. It is too early yet to assess the precise effects on postal services of the reshaping of the railways; but in general we should expect to maintain the present standards of the letter post and improve the reliability of the parcel post without incurring additional expenditure.

Will my hon. Friend reconsider the first part of his Answer because the inquiries at the transport users consultative committee stage will be of considerable importance locally? If Post Office representatives give evidence in support of the speedy delivery of mail, it may help the committee to come to the right conclusions.

We will certainly consider that point, but we must bear in mind the point which I made in my Answer. Obviously we should have to consider what the effect on us would be in each case, particularly whether alternative methods of transport would be available.

Since we are suffering a loss on the parcel service, is the hon. Member aware that, if the Beeching proposals were ruthlessly carried out, they would either kill the parcel service completely or plunge all the G.P.O. services into the red? What protest is the hon. Gentleman's Department making to the Minister of Transport to ensure that these proposals are not so quickly carried out?

I could not agree with the hon. Gentleman on either of those points. There is no reason that we can see why either of those two things should happen. The hon. Gentleman will have seen that we are fast developing the use of modern forms of transport and are using the railways for bulk transport, and so on. We are following the railways' line of using motor transport for the shorter distances, even regardless of the proposed closures.

Will my hon. Friend consider, on demand by Members of Parliament, giving this information about the delays in delivering mail if railways or stations are closed?

As I said, we will certainly consider that point.

Is not this a bit awkward in that we do not know exactly what will happen? We understand that the Post Office may or may not make representations to the Minister of Transport in respect of certain lines. Would it not be much better if this were dealt with by the Post Office in exactly the same way as anyone else would deal with it so that people in the locality concerned know how they will be affected?

As I said earlier, the fact that we are very close consultation with British Railways on the whole question is, overall, the best possible way of dealing with it. Obviously, our view on each closure must be, and will be, taken into account by British Railways. On the individual matters, it is possible that we will want to be represented, and we are not closing our minds to this. What I am saying is that we will look at each closure on its merits.

asked the Postmaster-General why he is issuing a Shakespeare postage stamp; and when it will be issued.

Our policy is to issue special stamps to mark current events of outstanding national or international importance and Royal and postal anniversaries and occasions. A wide variety of commemorative festivals and exhibitions are planned in this country to mark the 400th anniversary of the birth of Shakespeare Taken together they will constitute an outstanding event fully warranting a special stamp issue. This will be made on 23rd April, 1964.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is the first satisfactory Answer that I have received from the Postmaster-General since I have been in this House? Now that it has taken 400 years to recognise Shakespeare, will the hon. Gentleman say when the time for other celebrities will come?

Bearing in mind the points that I have made, I see no reason why we should not follow the lines which the hon. Gentleman has indicated.

Will the Assistant Postmaster-General now give consideration to a stamp for William Williams Pantycelyn?

If the hon. Gentleman will give me details about who this gentleman is, I will study them.

asked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to issue a Burns postage stamp.

My right hon. Friend has no present plans for issuing a Burns postage stamp.

When Shakespeare appears on the stamp he will blush at that Answer. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that nearly every other person knows the date of the birth of Burns, but that very few English people know the date of Shakespeare's birth?

asked the Postmaster-General on what date the East Anglian parcel mail experiment is to commence; and if he will give further particulars of this experiment.

While I cannot give a precise date, our aim is to start in June. The experiment is designed to improve the reliability of the parcel post service and reduce costs. The present system whereby parcel mails travel from place to place in small consignments, the movement of which is difficult to control, will be replaced by one in which the mails are moved in bulk consignments between relatively few main centres, with distribution from a collection into these centres by road. British Railways are collaborating in the experiment and movement of the bulk loads of mails between the major concentration centres will be largely by rail.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that although the postal services may not be perfect in Norfolk they are reasonably satisfactory and during the recent wintry spell they were put to a very searching test and came through with flying colours? We in Norfolk are not in any way against the experiment. I hope that this experiment will further improve our services. I wish the Postmaster-General well in his new venture.

I thank the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the many postmen to whom he has paid respects. I am particularly happy to know that this is the case in Norfolk. This experiment, as he probably knows, is the result of a study group on mail handling, one of the many processes in which we are trying to keep ourselves adapted and in line with modern developments so as to ensure that we will give a first-class service to the customer.

asked the Postmaster-General what rearrangements of the postal service will be made in the present Borough of Leyton area when the amalgamation of that borough with neighbouring boroughs has been effected.

None, Sir.

Would the Government consider the possibility of making the boundaries of postal districts co-terminus with the boundaries of the new boroughs, especially in view of the fact that in Leyton there are three or four postal areas some of which overlap into neighbouring boroughs, thus causing much confusion? With a view to avoiding this confusion and for the sake of greater neatness, will the hon. Gentleman consider my suggestion?

As we see it, postal and local government boundaries do not necessarily coincide. Changes in the latter will not in themselves call for alterations in postal boundaries. However, I will certainly examine the suggestion.

asked the Postmaster-General what representations he has received from pay television promoters to enlarge experiments on pay television, particularly by the use of more than one channel; and what was the nature of his reply.

Some of those who are interested in taking part in the experiments have asked to be allowed to try out a two or three programme service so as to demonstrate the full potential of pay television, in particular for minority programming in education, the arts and sport at peak hours.

While not ruling this out later on, the Government consider that at this stage an experiment on the basis of a single programme, as envisaged in the White Paper (Cmnd. 1893), should be capable of demonstrating the possibilities of pay television.

I have replied in this sense.

I am much obliged for that reply. I appreciate the pressure which must be brought to bear on the Minister by this new lobby to expand their pay television services? Will the Minister say whether it is possible to have more facilities available for the growth of pay television? Is it not a fact that because of the lack of resources this would prove very difficult? Could the Minister now state what in total we have agreed to for the development of these experiments?

I am not aware of any lobby for pay television. All I can say at the moment is that the Government and the Post Office are examining the applications we have received. We are having discussions with the various interested parties. As soon as I am in a position to say what is likely to emerge, I will very gladly tell the House.

Will the Minister tell the House how many companies have made approaches to him for permission to start experiments?

Speaking off the cuff. I think about ten.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will give a direction to the British Broadcasting Corporation under Section 15(4) of the Licence and Agreement not to broadcast plays calcu- lated to discourage recruitment into the Armed Forces.

I think that my hon. and gallant Friend may be referring to the B.B.C. programme "A Little Bit of Gold Said Jump". I did not see the programme and I have not had an opportunity to read the script. But my power under Section 15(4) is a reserve power which I am most reluctant to use.

I appreciate my right hon. Friend's reply and I understand the point he makes, but does he think it really acceptable that material which is grotesquely misrepresentative of Service conditions should be broadcast?

It is difficult for me to answer my hon. and gallant Friend on that point because I have not seen the programme, but, when I have the time, I will very gladly read a copy of the script and then, perhaps, communicate with him.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are many people who would not wish the Government to direct the British Broadcasting Corporation on an issue such as this and who consider that it should be left to the good sense of the Corporation to avoid this type of programme?

Yes, and I am sure that the B.B.C. will take note of the views expressed by my hon. Friends.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this programme was any more distorted than the advertisements produced by the War Office for recruitment to the Armed Services?

asked the Prime Minister whether he will take steps to establish a Department of Aid to be responsible for the co-ordination of all forms of economic aid, including investment and technical assistance, to under-developed countries.

No, Sir. Responsibility for technical assistance was unified with the establishment of the Department of Technical Co-operation in 1961, and there is adequate machinery for the co-ordination of policy on all other aspects of our overseas aid.

Is the Prime Minister aware that in the first Progress Report of the Department of Technical Cooperation, published in April of last year, the view was expressed that there should be co-ordination of technical and financial assistance? Will he study the United States system, where a Department of Aid has been established with full powers of co-ordination over every form of assistance to under-developed countries?

I think that the situation is a little different here. The United States has one Department—the State Department—dealing with all external affairs. We have the Foreign Office, the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Colonial Office.

Will these matters be raised next year at the United Nations Economic Conference? If they are, will Her Majesty's Government give full support?

I should like to inquire into that.

asked the Prime Minister whether public statements on the leasehold system, made at a Press conference on Saturday, 27th April, by the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

Yes, Sir.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, who has expressed his deep dislike of any measure of leasehold enfranchisement, merely expressed in this Press interview opposition to any other constructive proposals being made? Would it not be better for the Minister to spend his time bringing a solution to the leasehold problem rather than just sniping at the efforts of others?

The Government made their contribution by the passing of Landlord and Tenant Act, 1954.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that adequate attention is being given to the arts and to amenities by Her Majesty's Government; and if he will make a statement.

Government expenditure on the arts is now £11 million a year compared with £3½million in 1951. The Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, 1953, and the Government's use of the National Land Fund have arrested and reversed the decay and loss of our major historic houses and their contents. The Waverley procedure has largely halted the loss of great works of art from this country and yet made London the greatest art market in the world. The present exhibition at the National Gallery of eighty-nine major works of art acquired since 1953 contains striking evidence of what the Government has done in that field. We now have before Parliament a Bill to clear the way for two great new library developments under a new British Museum Trustee body. The Arts Council grant has grown since 1951 from £675,000 to £2·7 million and the National Theatre is coming to fruition. In the light of these examples, I do not think my hon. Friend need fear that the Government is giving inadequate attention to the arts.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for his very full and impressive reply? In view of the important new responsibilities which he has placed on the Minister of Public Building and Works and in view of the greatly increased work at the Treasury, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and other Ministries concerned with the arts, will he ensure that the Government do not lose initiative here? Will he personally lend his support to a new Government initiative in the arts and related matters?

This is a wide subject. There are varying views about what more might be done and about the possibility of having better machinery. I was saying only that I think we have had very considerable success in the last few years.

Does the Prime Minister think it right that, owing to the smallness of the grant made to the Royal Shakespeare Company, that company is able to continue its excellent work only by being subsidised by its artistes accepting low fees?

That is a special aspect of a very large issue. I do not know the details of it. If the hon. and learned Gentleman would write to me, i should be very glad to see if there is anything I can do.

My right hon. Friend used words which seemed to me to imply that he believed that the decay in our national architectural heritage had been arrested. Is he aware that almost daily buildings of great architectural value are being destroyed or mutilated? Will he undertake not to be complacent in this matter but to realise that, far from the decay in our national heritage having been arrested, it is still going on?

There is a difference between decay through neglect, which has been largely arrested by the various methods available, and sometimes a great conflict of views on whether a building should be preserved or destroyed for some other purpose. That is another question.

I do not disparage what the Government have already done, but does the Prime Minister acknowledge that the present assistance given to the arts and amenities in general is both rather haphazard and inadequate? Will he in particular take notice that the British Museum requires a great deal of money for the purposes of the modernisation to which he referred? Should not that be the direct responsibility of the Treasury? Would it not be unfortunate if the fact that the British Museum requires a great deal of money results in less money being available for other museums and institutions throughout the country, as is feared?

All this must be taken as a whole. I am hoping that the Bill to reorganise the management of the Museum will go through. I am sure that this is a step which is much needed.

asked the Prime Minister by what methods he intends to ensure that the proposed long-term military aid to India will be deployed wholly for defence of the sub-continent against external aggression.

As I stated in reply to the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) on 2nd May, no decisions about long-term military aid to India have yet been taken. Conditions governing the provision of arms and military equipment to India were set out in an exchange of letters of 27th November, 1962, between the British and Indian Governments. The texts were circulated in the OFFICIAL. REPORT of 29th November.

I fully appreciate the care with which the Government have approached this problem. Does the Prime Minister fully realise the real extent and depth of the disquiet and apprehension felt in Pakistan at the moment about how this aid might be used in the future, more particularly as even at the height of the Indo-Chinese conflict last year no less than four-fifths of the whale Indian Army was deployed against Pakistan and not against China?

I am aware of the views both of the Government of Pakistan and of the Government of India. What my right hon. Friend is trying to do— I am sure that it is right to try to do it—is to see whether we can in any way facilitate a solution of the many problems which divide the two Governments, for it is a very unhappy thing for the subcontinent that they should be divided when there this external threat.

Does not the Prime Minister agree that both Britain and the Commonwealth as a whole will gain far more if this country supplies India with the aircraft she so desperately needs to protect her country against Chinese Communist aggresson than if Britain continues to act as the arsenal of apartheid in South Africa?

As regards India, the long-term agreement is now being discussed. I looked into the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition. Spare parts for the Indian Air Force are one of the emergency items we agreed to supply under the technical agreement of last November. The backlog is very great and there are some difficulties, sometimes of production and sometimes of supply.

However, these are being overcome and agreement has been reached on a large spares programme, the delivery of which is already in progress.

Would not the Prime Minister agree that, if he continues to link the question of an agreement between India and Pakistan, which we all desire, with the settlement of long-term military aid to India, the probable result will be to leave India helpless and not to secure an agreement with Pakistan?

No. I do not think that is the right phrase and I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has used it. We are not linking it. We shall make the long-term agreement shortly, as soon as all the work is completed. What we have done is to express the view that we should be sorry to see an appreciable part of the Indian Army deployed not for defence against China but against Pakistan. This is not the same thing as linking one witih the other. We shall go ahead with our plans, but we shall also try to do our duty—I think it is our duty—to see if we can in any way be of assistance in solving this problem.