asked the Minister of Health what incentives are offered to those in the ward sister-charge nurse grade to serve in psychiatric hospitals rather than in general nursing.

All but the most senior nurses on the psychiatric register receive a lead over those on the general register.

:Why has the increased incentive at staff nurse level been retained in the new scale but eliminated at the ward sister-charge nurse level? Is he aware that this £50 decrease is having a very bad effect on recruitment in psychiatric hospitals? Is he further aware that on the female side of psychiatric hospitals there are already acute difficulties because of the shortage of nursing staff?

:The hon. Member is mistaken. It is only at the very top of the scale that the lead has been eliminated. This is the result of the award of the Industrial Court, and I gather the view is taken that at the top of the scale there is not a difference in responsibilities.

asked the Minister of Health how many almoners and student almoners, respectively, are now employed in the hospital service.

One thousand and twenty-two whole-time equivalents last September. The number of students attached to hospitals is not known.

Would not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary agree that the total number is far from adequate and that the rate of increase is deplorable?

I would agree that most hospitals would like to recruit more almoners, but I am glad to say that the numbers in post are increasing, though not as rapidly as we would like.

asked the Minister of Health how many therapeutic dietitians and student therapeutic dietitians, respectively, are now employed in the hospital service.

One hundred and eighty-two whole-time equivalents last September. The number of students attached to hospitals is not known.

Is not the rate of increase in therapeutic dietitians even worse than the rate of increase in almoners? Do not these figures disclose that a good many general hospitals, probably the majority, have not got anybody devoted to this work?

I quite agree. Again, there is a shortage here. Sixty-eight students started training in England and Wales in the autumn of last year: this is some improvement. There are now six institutions in England and Wales running courses to train dietitians. New courses for school leavers have started in recent years at Leeds and Llandaff. I agree that there is a need to recruit still more.

asked the Minister of Health how many amenity beds are now available in hospitals in England and Wales; whether this number is likely to be increased; and what action he is taking to draw public attention to the existence of these beds and the conditions under which they can be obtained.

:Five thousand and twelve at the end of last year; this will depend on demand; the hospital authorities concerned are asked to remind doctors and prospective patients that these beds are available.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people who would wish to have a private room in a hospital are unaware of the existence of amenity beds and many who are aware of the facility are unable to take advantage of it because there appear to be too few per hospital? Will he take steps to publicise the existence of these beds so that people know about them? If a need is shown, will he then agree to increase the number of amenity beds available?

:I will certainly consider any application made to me by a hospital authority for an increase in the number of amenity beds. I agree with my hon. Friend that the existence of this facility is in many places insufficiently known, and I have asked hospital authorities to do all they can to make it known. I am informed that a booklet in preparation giving information about the hospital in my hon. Friend's division will include specific reference to this facility.

:Will the Minister be very careful about this matter, because there has been much complaint that people at the moment are able to jump the queue? Waiting lists are very long. Where people can pay extra, they can get into hospital for the treatment they need, whether they need it urgently or not. An increase in the number of amenity beds available will merely increase the possibility of people being able to jump the queue if they are able to pay, thus making waiting lists even longer.

:No, that cannot arise because amenity beds are available for other patients as and whenever they need them.

:Since the occupancy rate of amenity beds is substantially higher than that of pay beds, would he consider converting some Section 5 beds into Section 4 beds?

:Without notice, I am not sure that there is very much difference between the two. There is a big difference between the occupancy for paying patients and the total occupancy.

asked the Minister of Health what recommendations he has made to hospital authorities on the arrangements at hospitals for National Health patients to see consultants.

I am sending the hon. Lady copies of the recommendations.

:I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he realise, however, that throughout the country considerable dissatisfaction is being expressed by people about the length of time they often have to wait to see a consultant if they wish to have a consultation through the National Health Service? Is he further aware that these people are saying—and this has a bearing on what was said earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) in another context—that if one is prepared to pay one can obtain almost instant treatment? If we are to have a National Health Service, should it not be a comprehensive one rather than a system under which money gives one the first opportunity?

Waiting lists for consultation are closely connected with waiting lists for treatment. I have asked hospital authorities to make the reduction of these lists a major objective this year, and a great deal of work on this is being done.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the opinion of local authorities that they should be entitled to direct representation on the local hospital management committees; and whether he will seek to amend the National Health Service Act, 1946, to this end.

:Some authorities have expressed this opinion; no, Sir.

:Does the Minister not consider that the many years of practical experience of the present system of representation reveals that the time has now arrived for a review to be made of the terms of membership of these committees? Should not local people be entitled to representation on these committees, which are at present rather unbalanced and seem to operate very much in accord with the"old pals act" rather than the National Health Service?

:There is, in fact, a big representation on these committees of members of local authorities, particularly local health authorities. About one-third of all members of hospital management committees are also members of local authorities. I do not think that direct representation is practicable or right in the case of authorities which are the agents of regional hospital boards.

asked the Minister of Health what extra measures he is taking to speed up the building of the new Royal Berkshire Hospital.

Building should start early next year; progress is now satisfactory.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the position when the first and second general surgical operating theatres had to close in April because of serious defects in the structure and all the operations had to be carried out in the E.N.T. and gynaecological theatres? Can he not do something to advance the date from 1964 to this year, and will he do what he can to ensure that Phase 4 of the overall plan is approved in the immediate future?

:I think we have the earliest practical dates at the moment. I have been aware of the difficulties my hon. Friend mentions and of the great pressure under which this hospital has been working, and I have been personally concerned with the planning at several stages.

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for his assistance, but will not he do a little more to see that these dates are brought forward? The staff are doing a superlative job under these conditions, but does my right hon. Friend realise that, though the hospital is still able to get recruits, unless something is done before the early stage of 1964 the position will become critical?

:I will do everything I can to accelerate the successive stages of these plans, though there is a limit to the extent to which one can reduce the period of time taken in the planning and building of a hospital.

asked the Minister of Health how many British delegates attended the thirteenth International Hospital Congress in Paris in June 1963 with expenses paid out of public funds; how many attended with expenses paid out of hospital free money funds; what was the cost both to the Exchequer and to free money funds; and what instructions he has issued for future attendance at this annual congress and other overseas study tours.

:There were 62 from England and Wales, with expenses met from public or endowment funds; I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the instructions, and will give him the figures of cost when available.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there has been a suggestion that the Ministry intends to limit the numbers of those who attend these conferences? While no one who is reasonable—and I would count myself as being fairly reasonable in these matters—would want to stop a fair number going to these conferences, does not my hon. Friend think that it becomes ridiculous when it is open to area boards and management committees to send as many people as they like out of public funds or free money?

I am sure we would all agree that my hon. Friend is reasonable in this matter as in everything else. Whilst not in any way discounting what he has said, the figures of attendance this year are not large in relation to the size of the hospital service, and I would not wish it to be thought that we have nothing to learn from or contribute to international meetings. Nevertheless, I am sure that my right hon. Friend will very much bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

:Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that these congresses and study tours—not one of which, incidentally, I have attended in 12 years' membership of a regional board—are of considerable value to members of hospital authorities? In so far as they offer also a minimal amount of pleasure, is not that some compensation for the enormous amount of voluntary work that these people do, and will the Minister do something to curb his hon. Friend's Scrooge-like propensities?

:I wholly reject the charge levelled by the hon. Member at my hon. Friend. In matters of this kind a reasonable balance clearly has to be maintained. These conferences are valuable to those who attend, and the exchange of ideas is of great value to all concerned; but this is a matter which has to be watched.

asked the Minister of Health why the buildings included in the initial phase of the new General Hospital at Green Lea, Lindley, Huddersfield, are not, immediately on completion, to be used to relieve the congestion in the Huddersfield Royal Infirmary.

asked the Minister of Health when the construction of the new hospital at Lindley, Huddersfield, will be completed; when it will be in use, in whole or in part; and what is the cause of the delay.

In 1966; the board is considering if part can be brought into use sooner; the difficulty is that of using premises on which construction work is still proceeding.

:Will the hon. Gentleman answer the third part of Question No. 5, which is not my Question, namely, what is the cause of the delay? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of the medical profession in Huddersfield is in favour of using these premises as soon as they are ready and that the situation in the Huddersfield Royal Infirmary is becoming desperate?

If when the hon. Gentleman refers to delay he refers to the delay in completing the first phase, that is due to a number of factors—reappraisal during planning, the bad weather in the winter, and so forth. While I fully accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the need to bring these new premises into use as early as possible, I understand that the board has so far been hesitant about this because, with the construction going on in the second phase, the building will not really be suitable for use. However, as I told the hon. Gentleman last week, the board is keeping this aspect under review, and I am sure that what the hon. Gentleman has said in the House will be borne very much in mind.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the conditions of work in the old Huddersfield Royal Infirmary are now so bad that existing staff are resigning and new staff are difficult to recruit; and what action he will take to improve conditions.

:No, Sir; the hospital is being replaced.

That is all very well. The hospital is being replaced, but it is 3½ years behind schedule, or something like that. Meantime, as I have said, conditions in the hospital are intolerable. Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the only possible means of relieving congestion in the hospital is to get a move on with the new general hospital? Will he please do all he can to ensure that?

Yes, Sir. I agree entirely.

asked the Minister of Health how many persons are on the waiting lists in the Royal Gwent and St. Woolas Hospitals, respectively.

2,864 and 413 at the end of March.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether these waiting lists are increasing or decreasing and, if happily the latter, is the decrease fairly substantial?

:The numbers show some decline since 31st March, 1962. I should add that my right hon. Friend is most anxious that the board should do everything possible in the interim to keep waiting lists down and to reduce the numbers still further.

asked the Minister of Health what is the most recent position in regard to the new construction of the Royal Gwent Hospital.

The boiler house and workshops are under construction. Tenders for the rest of Phase I have been received.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that as the result of the advent of the vast new steelworks at Llanwern just outside and the construction of other ancillary works in the area it is highly important that the construction of this hospital should be expedited by every means?

:Yes, Sir. My information at the moment is that the work is expected to start on this part of the scheme in the late summer.

asked the Minister of Health how many senior hospital medical officers are holding consultant posts.

Eight hundred and two in England and Wales at 30th September last.

:Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that these senior hospital medical officers are giving service of full consultant quality?

:I do not think that I am called upon to pronounce upon the competence of people in the profession.

The hon. Gentleman has announced that 800 of these people have been graded accordingly. Is he satisfied that, being graded accordingly, they are giving service of consultant quality?

:If they are doing consultant work they must satisfy the requirements.

asked the Minister of Health what representations he has received in respect of charges to hospital nursing staff which have diminished the real value to them of recent salary increases; and what replies he has sent.

:Nine letters. I am sending the hon. Member copies.

Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman will also supply me with the information which I have asked for in the Question? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Question has been put down as a projection of a letter sent to him by a local body in which it makes these allegations? Would the hon. Gentleman say in anticipation of the letter to me whether the increased charges in some cases abolish the value of the increased salaries?

:The hon. Gentleman might have surmised that the letter would set out the answer in full. What the hon. Gentleman says must be seen against the background of general increases over the last few years and the arbitration in March last. The Industrial Court accepted the view of the management side that an increase in charges was overdue. The outcome was a general increase for qualified staff. This has been accepted by the profession. I do not think that there is anything I can now do about an award by the Industrial Court.

:May I press the hon. Gentleman and ask him whether, in certain cases at least, the increases have been entirely nullified by the increased charges? Would he give me a specific reply?

I would not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. The increases are to some extent offset by the additional provision for remissions; for off-duty absences of 48 hours or high multiples of 24 hours, provided the nurse is absent from the hospital. The extent to which the nurses will benefit from this provision will vary in individual cases.

:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter at the earliest moment on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Health when the grant for hand control conversion costs for motor cars was last fixed.

The grant is actual cost, subject to a maximum of £70; it was last fixed in 1954.

:In view of the substantially increased charges being made at all garages for this kind of conversion, does the joint Parliamentary Secretary not think that the time has come when there should be a revision of the amount of grant which is made to these disabled people, many of whom are among the poorest section of the community and who rely on a conversion such as this for their livelihood?

The charges have not increased by all that amount. In 1954 the cost of a hand control conversion ranged from £30 to £70. It now ranges from £44 to £85. Since below the maximum we pay the actual cost, the grants are not static. However, I will certainly undertake to ask my right hon. Friend to reconsider the limit.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to increase the supply of trained chiropodists.

:I am not aware that any special steps are called for at present.

Since much chiropodic disease seemingly unnecessarily immobilises people for relatively trivial reasons, will not the Minister take steps to make it possible for rather more mature health workers to study chiropody?

The whole question of the future of this profession does not rest with my right hon. Friend; this is one of the professions supplementary to medicine. However, I take the hon. Member's point and everything turns on the number of people entering the profession and practising in it. I am glad to say that the number of people who started training during the present academic year is more than twice the figure for four years ago.

:Is the Minister aware that there is a tremendous shortage of chiropodists and that my local authority has had the greatest difficulty in appointing a full-time one? Does he not consider that he should consult the Minister of Education on the possibility of encouraging more people to enter what is, I understand, becoming a profession with a four-year training course? Should not young people be encouraged to take up this work, particularly because of its vital importance from the point of view of the care of the aged?

I agree with the hon. Lady's remarks generally, and it may be that registration, which is now in process and which will do much, we hope, to raise the status of the profession, will help to maintain and increase the number of young people coming into it.

asked the Minister of Health why the gross cost per prescription over the years 1960–62 has risen by 20 per cent.

:Elimination of items obtainable under about 2s.; prescription of larger quantities in chronic cases; increased use of more effective and expensive drugs; rising costs generally.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not also care to add as a contributory cost that doctors are prescribing for longer periods in order to offset as far as possible the doubled prescription charge which was introduced at the beginning of this period?

I stated that in my answer. I said,"Prescription of larger quantities in chronic cases." I am glad that this is being done. It is to the advantage of the Service as well as the patient.

asked the Minister of Health how many women died from cervical cancer in 1961; what proportion of these deaths could have been prevented by earlier detection and treatment; what is the average cost of taking and analysing a smear; and what steps he proposes to take to set up an effective nation-wide detection system.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to encourage routine cervical smear examinations of women aged 25 to 60, and to provide the cytological facilities needed for such a service.

asked the Minister of Health if he will set up a scheme for the routine taking of Papanicolaou smears for all women over 20 years of age.

asked the Minister of Health if he will provide the necessary financial support to ensure that the work of early diagnosis of cancer in women carried out at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Gateshead, will continue uninterrupted.

There were 2,504 deaths from cervical cancer in 1961. I cannot estimate how many could have been prevented nor suggest an average cost per smear. Regional boards will consider any requests which committees make to continue or start this procedure. In general, I would refer to my reply of 28th January to the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where these services are offered more than half the women who are offered them take advantage of them and that the bottleneck occurs in the supply of technicians and pathologists who should be recruited to do the review of the smears taken? Does the Minister not agree that it is his responsibility to see that these pathologists and technicians are trained?

I agree that there are limitations on the rate at which this aspect of the Service can be developed. That, no doubt, is one of the reasons why I have been advised that it would be premature at present to aim at a general application; but I do not doubt that hospital boards will consider applications from hospital committees to go forward with it or to initiate it.

:Is the Minister aware that doctors are now regarding cancer of the cervix as a preventable disease, despite the fact that it kills nearly half as many women as there are road deaths in a year? Is he further aware that there has been nearly 100 per cent. co-operation in the very few areas which have undertaken routine smearing and that estimates have been made that the cost of detecting a case is about £60, which is roughly the cost of detecting a case of pulmonary tuberculosis in the mass X-ray scheme? In view of these facts, will he reconsider the earlier and rather unsatisfactory reply he gave me?

I would rather not comment on the clinical observations of the hon. Member, but I do not at all underestimate the value and importance of this development; and this is why I say that I am sure that the hospital authorities will give it encouragement where practicable.

asked the Minister of Health what study is made by Her Majesty's Government, before allocating funds, of the cost and effectiveness of different treatments and of research in relation to the incidence and seriousness of different conditions of ill health.

:Funds are not allocated for the treatment of particular conditions. The allocation of research funds is a matter for my noble Friend the Minister for Science.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that he does not consider the incidence of different diseases and the effectiveness of different treatments in the general allocation of funds to the different branches of the hospital service? Was not his reply to the previous Question an indication of a lack of fundamental study in the administration of his Ministry which could prevent many deaths and remove much ill-health?

No, Sir. I am sure that it would be quite impracticable to attempt to allocate sums from the total amount available to hospital authorities either for particular conditions or particular treatments.

asked the Minister of Health to what causes he attributes recent outbreaks of typhoid.

:At Harlow the cause is believed to be contaminated food; at South Shields it is not yet known.

:Does the Minister have an expert team of investigators to sift the evidence and discover the causes in order to bring the facts together, so that the public may be warned about the types of food they should avoid and those running food shops should be warned of the precautions they should take?

Our officers do, of course, co-operate with the officers of the local health authorities. That co-operation is very close, and I have every reason to believe that it is fully effective.

Can the Minister tell us the rate at which typhoid cases are now growing, taking into account all the strains, compared with, say, last year? Further, will he direct his attention to the whole question of the disposal of sewage in built-up areas, bearing in mind that there is some evidence that the building of sewage plants is not running at the same rate as the building of houses?

The subject of the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is not a matter for my Department. I am sure that if he puts down a Question to the appropriate Ministry he will get the answer. As for the first part of his supplementary question, if we exclude the cases traced to the outbreak at Zermatt, the number of cases this year is not abnormal so far. This year 125 cases of typhoid have been notified.

asked the Minister of Health what is his estimate of the compensation which will have to be paid by local authorities under Section 41 of the Public Health Act 1961, arising out of the outbreak of typhoid at Harlow; and how many persons are involved.

No estimate is yet possible; ten under this Section and seven under the 1953 Regulations.

:Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that in fact the compensation will be entirely a charge on the local authorities of the areas where these persons reside and that no finance can be secured either by the individual or by local authorities from National Insurance funds?"

Yes, Sir, I think so, but I should explain that the sums involved are not large. I understand, for example, that up to now there have been 13 claims for compensation and £68, as interim payments, has been paid to six persons.

asked the Minister of Health what advice is being given to travellers to Switzerland; and what precautions are being taken in respect of visitors from Switzerland, in the light of the experience gained by the Swiss health administration arising out of the outbreak of typhoid at Zermatt and the two further outbreaks.

:All persons going abroad are advised to be effectively vaccinated against typhoid. None, Sir.

:But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since this Question was put down there have been further reports of suspicion about further outbreaks of typhoid in Switzerland? Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted medical opinion on whether there ought not to be special precautions with regard to Switzerland, bearing in mind the very large tourist trade in the summer and the not very good record of the relationship between the Swiss tourist industry and the Swiss health authorities, which were not above suspicion in the case of the Zermatt outbreak?

:The last point is not for me to comment upon. This is a matter which is constantly looked at by my medical advisers. I am satisfied that the best way to deal with it is through local health authorities, which obtain assistance from my Department in dealing with any cases that occur and in following up the causes as promptly as possible.

asked the Minister of Health when he proposes to bring forward regulations to require the pasteurisation to a satisfactory standard of all bulked liquid/whole egg intended for human consumption; and if he has consulted the British Egg Marketing Board and the National Egg Packers' Association on the practicability of enforcing such regulations at an early date while considerable stocks of home-produced liquid egg have to be disposed of and pasteurising facilities are restricted.

This month; the operative date is under consideration; yes, Sir.

:I am not quite sure what that reply means. Does it mean that home-produced liquid egg which is now held in stock will no longer be allowed to be sold for human consumption unless it has been subjected to what is now to be the approved pasteurisation process? As there does not seem to be any evidence that trouble has arisen through home-produced supplies of liquid egg, will not the Minister give a period of grace to allow these stocks, which seem to be quite safe, to be disposed of without very heavy loss to the producers?

:The answer to the last part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is that the subject is very much in my right hon. Friend's mind. As regards the first part, I was answering the Question on the Order Paper, which asked when my right hon. Friend proposes to bring forward regulations to require pasteurisation to a satisfactory standard and I said that it would be this month. The operative date of the new regulations is still under consideration, but it may be of interest to the House to know, because this has been a matter of some public comment, that, by voluntary arrangement, all whole liquid Chinese egg is already being pasteurised.

Is it not a fact that, originally, these regulations were to come into force on 1st August? Is it true that they have now been put back to probably 1st January of next year? Is my hon. Friend aware that all those who are involved in the poultry industry would wish these regulations to come in as soon as possible, because it is undoubtedly the fact that liquid egg has been the cause of illness and outbreaks of various diseases in the past?

I will advise my hon. Friend to await the regulations which will be shortly laid before the House.

asked the Minister of Health if he intends to recognise the School Certificate as equivalent to the General Certificate of Education for incremental purposes for the clerical grade staff in the National Health Service.

My right hon. Friend is awaiting a recommendation on this from the Whitley Council.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that both the National Coal Board and the Electricity Council regard the School Certificate as equivalent to the General Certificate of Education? Will he pass this information on to the Whitley Council?

Yes, Sir. I understand that a Committee of the Council agreed on 18th June to extend this provision to officers in post who possess qualifications corresponding to the School Certificate examination. The joint secretaries are working out the details of the agreement now.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the high percentage of tuberculosis among school children in the Coseley and Sedgley areas of Staffordshire; what steps are being taken to ascertain the causes of this situation; and what action is being taken to improve it.

There has been an outbreak in one school; the source has been discovered; continued supervision of contacts, testing and prophylactic treatment.

Whilst thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reassuring reply, may I ask whether he will confirm that the main cause of tuberculosis is infected milk? Has the milk supplied to the schools been T.B. tested? Will the right hon. Gentleman agree further that contributory causes of tuberculosis are excessive smoke fumes and dust from local industry? Is this aspect of the problem being inquired into?

:There is no reason to relate the source of this particular incident in this school to either of the causes which the hon. Member mentioned. The child who was the source of this infection has been traced, but it is only at this one school that there has been anything abnormal.

asked the Minister of Health what recent discussions he has had with the medical profession regarding alternative methods of reimbursing general practitioners' practice expenses, or any other proposals for changing existing pool arrangements.

:None, Sir. The present methods were accepted by the Government and the profession in 1960 following the Royal Commission Report. The Review Body recently recommended no change.

Why has the right hon. Gentleman not had discussions? Is he aware that there is increasing evidence of dissatisfaction in the medical profession with the present arrangements? Is it not the right hon. Gentleman's duty at any rate to encourage the introduction of a better system to promote the highest standards of general practice?

:The method of remuneration of the medical profession is a matter of agreement between the profession and the Government. At present it is covered by the agreement following the Royal Commission's Report, and that was looked at by the Review Body recently. It reported that there should be no change, and this has been accepted by the Government.

:Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that when it is first announced that an increase of 14 per cent. is coming to the medical profession, and particularly the general practitioners, and it works out in the end at only 7 per cent., that system of remuneration is something which he ought to look at?

It does not work out at anything of the sort. It works out at a 14 per cent. increase in remuneration from public sources.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will give the unemployment figure, expressed as a percentage of the insured population, for the Bideford and Torrington Employment Exchange area at the last count; and if he will give the figure for the same month in 1962.

4 per cent. and 2·2 per cent., respectively.

May I first of all say how pleased I am to see my right hon. Friend back with us after his illness and express the hope that he will soon be fully recovered and get rid of his stick?

May I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks in the first part of his supplementary question?

As the right hon. Gentleman appears to know what the insured population is in this particular employment exchange area, may I ask him why he always refuses to let London Members of Parliament know the insured populations in the area of employment exchanges in London?

I think that is an irrelevant supplementary question. I have given the insured population of the Bideford and Torrington Employment Exchange area.

Is the Minister aware that Dr. Beeching is proposing to close down the railway to Bideford and Torrington?

asked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has for completing the training of apprentices who were made redundant in The Hartlepools as a result of the closing of the shipyard and engineering works.

Of 155 apprentices who were made redundant, 130 are continuing their training with other employers;14 have entered other employment; and 11 are still registered for work, of whom 7 are under submission to employers. Everything possible is being done to help these apprentices find employment in which they can continue their training.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am grateful to him for the efforts he has made to decrease the apprentice unemployed? May I ask if he will do what he can to assist me to obtain the C.E.G.B. contract for Richardsons Westgarth who employ a very large number of apprentices?

:I can certainly promise my hon. and gallant Friend that I will do all I can to find employment for these few boys who still have not got the jobs that I should like to see them have.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extent to which the apprentices from the Tees-side works which are closing down were moved to other works which subsequently closed down? I she further aware that Stephenson & Hawthorn of Darlington are to close down in December, for example?

:Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on that point.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the prospects for the summer school-leavers this year for apprenticeship and other forms of occupational training; and what special steps the Government will take to improve these prospects.

Provided employers pay proper regard to the needs of an expanding economy there should be no lack of apprenticeship and other training opportunities for summer school leavers. This year's change in school leaving dates, which we have brought to the notice of employers, makes it important that firms should, in their own interests, increase their apprenticeship intake this summer, as there will be far fewer leavers at Christmas than in previous years. They should also do this in order to be in a position to take maximum advantage from the new legislation on industrial training now being prepared to give effect to the proposals in the White Paper (Cmd. 1892) published last December.

May I first of all welcome the Minister back after his illness and express the hope that he will have a speedy recovery?

:Last week my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out that now the economy is expanding this is an excellent opportunity to improve the rather disappointing performance in the early part of the year. I myself, together with the chairman of the Industrial Training Council, am putting pressure, through the Youth Employment Service, on all employers and trade unions to take as vigorous action as possible to implement the need to provide these extra training facilities during the rest of the year.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the circumstances of the withdrawal of the African delegations from the International Labour Office conference at Geneva and the consequences on the functioning of the organisation.

asked the Minister of Labour what action has been taken by the British Government delegation at the current conference of the International Labour Office on the controversies surrounding the attendance of the South African delegation; and if he will make a statement.

On 12th June, in the I.L.O. Conference in Geneva, a number of African delegates challenged the right of the employers' delegate of South Africa to address the Conference. Subsequently, the officers of the Conference upheld the view of the legal adviser of the Organisation that all properly accredited delegates have the right to speak.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that does not bring the story up to date? Is he aware that when the vote was taken on the representation of the South African trade unions, the British workers' delegate voted against this on the ground that no coloured person is allowed to be a member of those trade unions,but that the representatives of the Government and of the employers abstained on that fundamental issue? Can the Minister give us any information about the whole series of votes last Saturday when the I.L.O. considered referring this matter to the United Nations? How did the Government delegate vote then?

:In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, as I have indicated, the majority report of the Credentials Committee held that the workers' representative from South Africa had been chosen in accordance with the constitution of the I.L.O. but the minority took a different view. It was on this report that this particular vote was taken, and the United Kingdom delegate abstained in view of the very considerable doubt as to whether there had been a failure to follow the constitution. On the other matters, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows, a decision has now been taken for a tripartite delegation to accompany the Director-General of the I.L.O. to see the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the stage has now been reached where an increasing number of delegations of employers, workers and Government delegates all over the world are taking the view that the South African policies are incompatible with the Charter of the I.L.O. and, therefore, with continued membership of it, and this view is shared by the Director-General, Mr. Morse? Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that we regard the attitude of the British Government as disappointing? Could not they at least have gone as far as the American delegation in denouncing the policy of apartheid, and could the right hon. Gentleman give more information about the votes on Saturday?

As I think the House knows, Her Majesty's Government have consistently condemned the policy of apartheid. But the important thing is to deal with South Africa in such a way as to do as little harm as possible to the I.L.O. and it was on this theme that the Director-General addressed his speech to the Conference. It must be our aim to do nothing which will damage the I.L.O.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Government will very soon have to choose whether to stand by the members of the Commonwealth on these issues or to go on with these equivocal votes about South Africa? Ought not Commonwealth interests here to take a very high place in their consideration?

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that as there is a delegation about to go over to see the Secretary-General of the United Nations, and as this matter is likely to be raised in the Security Council, it is really not right for us to try to debate it at this time.

Is it not deplorable that an organisation such as the International Labour Office, which does so much good, should be used as a sounding board for this kind of issue which really has nothing to do with it, and would it not be best, in the service of improving relationships between African countries, if South Africa were encouraged to be in this organisation so that it could be influenced in its labour policy within the organisation itself?

:My hon. Friend will understand when I say that I do not want to be drawn on this in view of the fact that the delegation will shortly be going to New York to see the Secretary-General of the United Nations. On the general point he makes, I think the whole House will agree that it is a pity that the I.L.O.—its record has been, I think, almost unique among international organisations in that politics have played very little part in it—should now find that politics are being drawn into what it is trying to do.

:In view of the unsatisfactory replies, I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the high unemployment rate of 6·6 per cent. in Thorne, which compares with 2·4 per cent. nationally, what special action he proposes to take to find employment in that area for men, women, juveniles and registered disabled who are seeking work.

The rate of unemployment has now fallen to 5·8 per cent. compared with 2·1 per cent. nationally. My officers will continue to do everything to assist those registered with them to find suitable employment.

:Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that reply as being the standardised one which he has been giving for a long time past? Will he take special action, in view of the special circumstances in Thorne, where, on his own admission, unemployment is at twice the national rate?

I shall do as I have just said. I shall do all I can to help to place as many people as possible. The hon. Gentleman must not, I think, be too gloomy about the prospects. The economy is expanding, and I think that there will be an improvement in the position in his constitutency as well as elsewhere.

I shall try to accept the right hon. Gentleman's advice not to be too gloomy, but how will he persuade my unemployed constituents not to be too gloomy when neither he nor the President of the Board of Trade is doing anything except wait for something to turn up?

No, we are not doing that. The Government are taking very considerable action.

asked the Minister of Labour how many boys and girls are at present unemployed in Salford; how many are expected to leave school in July; and how many school leavers it is expected will be found jobs.

On 10th June, 119 boys and girls were registered as unemployed. About 1,000 are expected to leave school in July. The majority should be able to obtain employment without undue difficulty. The youth employment service will do all it can to help them.

Is not this a tragic way for school-leavers to start their industrial life, which may have lasting psychological effects and which might force them into jobs which they do not like? Will the Minister inquire into, and take some action in, the case of one of the biggest engineering firms in Manchester and Salford which has now stopped taking on apprentices altogether?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not wish to exaggerate the situation. There is a youth unemployment problem, but a great deal is being done. Of the 533 Easter school-leavers 13 are at present registered for employment. We must continue to make efforts to place the minority who have not yet been placed.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will speed up the procedure of granting work permits for foreign nationals seeking work in the catering industry, particularly during the summer months of maximum activity.

:These permits are issued as rapidly as possible, subject to completion of the necessary inquiries. In general, I am satisfied that the procedure works smoothly, but, if my hon. Friend has a particular case in mind, perhaps he would let me know so that I can look into it.

:Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, although what he says may be true in some cases, there are others where it takes a very great deal longer? Will he look at a special case in Bristol at the Grand Spa Hotel which has taken six weeks?

If my hon. Friend will be good enough to give me particulars, I will certainly look at it.

asked the Minister of Labour how many mine workers registered for employment at employment exchanges in County Durham at the last available date.

At 10th June, 1963, 1,740.

Is not this a very high figure of unemployed miners, particularly since efforts have been made to transfer unemployed miners to other parts of the coal field and throughout the country? As there appears to be very little hope of these unemployed miners being again employed in the Durham mining industry, can the Minister offer any prospects at all for their re-employment?

I share the right hon. Gentleman's concern about this figure. As he knows, there has been a considerable contraction in the coal mining industry during the past twelve months in Durham. There are about 6,000 fewer men on the books of the National Coal Board than there were a year ago.

But is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a great deal of, if I may use the expression,"ballyhoo" by certain individuals and organisations in the North-East about the transfer of unemployed miners to other coalfields? Does not this very large figure of over 1,700 unemployed miners, in the present depressing situation, give the lie to all this talk about the capacity to transfer unemployed miners to others parts of the coalfield?

The right hon. Gentleman will not, I am sure, wish to be unfair. The Coal Board has found work for about 3,000 miners in jobs outside Durham. However, he is right that there is left this balance about whom he feels concern. I certainly share his concern.

Do not these figures, combined with the figures which the Minister gave to the hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) and others, indicate how serious is what is now taking place in the North-East? Will he now say, seeing that he referred to it himself, when the House is to be given the special report compiled by the noble Lord on the Government's intentions regarding what is to be done to absorb some of the unemployed in the North-East?

:All I can say is that the Government are doing a great deal of work on this. Results have already flowed, and there will be further results.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the ratio of wholly unemployed women to the number of notified unfilled vacancies for women in the London and South-East region and in the Scottish region, respectively, at the latest available date.

:In June, 1 to 2 and 4 to 1, respectively.

:These figures ought to give the Minister great concern. What is he doing, in co-operation with the President of the Board of Trade and, perhaps, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to ensure that women in Scotland have at least as good a chance of work as women in the South? Or is the right hon. Gentleman like all other Ministers, quite content that Scotland should be denuded of most of its workers to the Midlands and the South?

I assure the hon. Lady that neither I nor any of my colleagues are quite content with the employment situation in Scotland. That is why I have reminded the House that special priority treatment is being given not only to Scotland, of course, but to the North-East. It is by these special methods that we hope to ensure that the people of Scotland get a fairer deal than they have now.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the ratio of wholly unemployed girls of under 18 years to the number of notified unfilled vacancies for girls in the London and South-East region and in the Scottish region, respectively, at the latest available date.

:At the June count, for every 100 wholly unemployed girls there were 720 notified vacancies in the London and South-Eastern region and 90 in Scotland.

:Does the Minister think about these figures at all? Does he appreciate how serious is the situation in Scotland? Is he aware that even Government Departments are telling girls in Scotland that there are no jobs for them there and that they must come to London if they want work at all? Will he see that something is done about this very urgent problem in Scotland?

:I have already expressed to the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) my concern on this whole general subject. I think that we can all take some comfort from the fact that we are having considerable success in placing school-leavers. By mid-June, only 3·4 per cent. of the total number of Easter school-leavers were, in fact, registered for employment. To this extent, the picture as it affects young people is better, I think, than some people may realise.

:The right hon. Gentleman seems to be very complacent. He should not be. Is he aware that a new batch of school-leavers is leaving this week?

:I am not complacent, and I am well aware of the fact to which the hon. Gentleman has just referred.