asked the Minister of Education if he will institute a separate building programme designed solely for the replacement of obsolete rural primary schools.

:No, Sir. I hope that the resources available for school building will enable steady progress to be made with the replacement of obsolete primary schools, including rural schools. It would not help, however, to have a separate programme.

:Would it not take about 10 years for a county like Herefordshire to catch up with its primary school building programme? Will there not be nearly 800,000 new places required in primary schools in England and Wales by 1972? Could not my right hon. Friend put much more emphasis on the building of these primary schools, especially in rural areas?

I have never made any secret to the House of the fact that I know a great deal remains to be done, both in the country districts and in the towns. During the five years between 1960 and 1965 we are concentrating on completing the reorganisation and making a considerable start with secondary school replacements. But I quite accept the fact that there is a measure of work to be done on primary school replacements in later periods.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have another look at his hon. Friend's suggestion? Is he aware that in many rural areas, such as Norfolk, where many of our schools are completely outdated, there could be a tremendous saving both in money and teacher-manpower if new village schools were built and many of the old slum schools done away with? Will he seriously look at the matter again?

The hon. Gentleman will realise that the Question relates specifically to the idea of having a separate programme. I believe that in drawing up the building programmes of authorities it is wise practice to give attention, as I try to do within the resources available, to the order of priority given by the authorities themselves.

:Is not my right hon. Friend aware—I am sure he is—that we have this problem all over the country? Is not his answer rather odd when he says that there will be sufficient resources, in view of the fact that the Devon Education Committee has had a cut from £902,000 to £63,000 in its building programme for 1963–64?

I said that a great deal remains to be done. I did not use the words"sufficient resources". I said that I thought that within the total resources available it was important to give attention to the priority given by the local authorities themselves, and that I doubted whether a separate programme, as proposed in the Question, was the right idea.

asked the Minister of Education if he will order a sample analysis to be carried out to discover what correlation there is between age of transfer from infants to junior sections of primary schools and subsequent performance in the 11-plus examination; and if he will publish the results.

:As I announced in answer to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Mr. Hornby) on 17th June, I have asked the Central Advisory Council for Education to consider primary education in all its aspects and the transition to secondary education. I cannot commit the Council to detailed projects of the kind suggested, but I am sure that it will make a thorough study of all aspects of selection for secondary schools.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Question is concerned not with selection for secondary schools but with the transfer from the infants to junior sections of primary schools? Is he aware that many parents feel that because there can be a variation of as much as a year in the age of transfer from infants to junior sections, this can set back the progress of a child so that he is not on an equal footing with his competitors who were transferred at a later age?

:I do not deny that the hon. Gentleman has a point here. I think he is on to a real problem. There have been investigations, such as the one in Durham, into the proportion of children born in the summer found in the lower streams of primary schools. My point was that the subject of the Question is so closely related to the organisation of primary education generally that I doubted the wisdom of having a separate inquiry over and above the major inquiry which the Central Advisory Council will shortly be carrying out.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the increased expenditure on libraries in training colleges, if he will provide more funds for clerical assistance in running these libraries.

:I assume that the hon. Member is referring to voluntary colleges. I am ready to consider on their merits proposals from these colleges for this purpose.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for sending me that list and for the progress being made. But does not he think that it is a waste of scarce college staff to concern them with a very onerous chore and that one of the best ways of using auxiliaries would be to employ them in this service?

I hope that the voluntary colleges will take note of the very reasonable and constructive suggestion of the hon. Member. However, no request has been received from voluntary colleges for staff in addition to those on the list. If requests are received, I will consider them on their merits.

asked the Minister of Education why more Austrian, Belgian and Swiss assistants are not employed in English schools.

We take all the candidates put forward, and the authorities know that we would gladly take more. In spite of the small numbers from these particular countries, however, the total number of foreign language assistants in our schools is growing each year.

The obvious places to get assistants from are these three countries. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something through our embassies to encourage recruitment there? Our local education authorities want as many as they can get.

I have made known to the authorities concerned that an increase would be welcome. The Austrians have told me that it would make the matter easier for them if their assistants were allowed to return home at the end of June instead of at the end of the school year in July. I am considering allowing this.

asked the Minister of Education what representations he has received from educational leaders in the North-East about undesirable picture cards in packages of sweets; and what reply he has made.

I have received a letter from the Blyth Teachers' Association which requests my assistance in suppressing the issue of these cards. In reply I have drawn the attention of the Association to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the hon. Member's Question on 2nd July, and I have explained that I have no powers to suppress the production or distribution of these cards. I hope, however, that parents will support teachers in helping their children to discriminate against shoddy material.

:Whilst thanking the right hon. Member for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that it simply does not go far enough and that, while we appreciate that he has no power to introduce legislation, the Home Secretary has? Will he discuss this with the Home Secretary with a view to some action being taken? The question of moral protection of children in schools is the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility.

I am bound to say that I doubt whether legislation would be the right way to do this. I think that this is a matter rather for the pressure of public opinion. These cards are absolutely deplorable, but what struck me about them was not so much that they were frightening or corrupting as that they were so utterly shoddy and contemptible. I would rather see this sort of thing dealt with by force of public opinion.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer will not get the withdrawal of these cards? Does not he think that, particularly in the circumstances in which we are living, something should be done by the Government themselves?

This Government?

Well, they are in power at the moment. It is the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility to see that our children are protected. We had to do something about horror comics. Why cannot we do something about these terrible cards?

I ask the House seriously to consider whether it would be right to try to frame legislation about the types of pictures which go into packets of sweets. I accept fully that these are absolutely lamentable pictures. In taste, in style and everything else one could not imagine more lamentable cards. However, I cannot but feel that it would be best if the children, so far from buying these sweets because they contain cards, came to realise how bad the pictures were and stopped buying the sweets. I think that pressure of public opinion is better than legislation in these cases.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, if the Government are to take action in matters of this kind, they should start a little higher up?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter later.

:Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely this question is about whether there should be legislation. Would that be in order on the Adjournment?

I will consider that if and when it arises on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education if he now intends to raise the school leaving age to 16 years before October, 1964.

No, Sir. This would be quite impossible, but I intend before the end of this Parliament, as my predecessor promised, to make a further statement on the Government's attitude to this important reform.

Can the right hon. Gentleman be a little specific? Can he tell us the year in which he intends to raise the school leaving age to 16? Or is this to be a major item in Conservative Party policy for the next General Election?

I deeply regret the way in which any statement I make on this subject—I am not specifically blaming the hon. Member—is invariably greeted, sometimes even in the educational Press, with a reference to party politics. We are facing a population explosion in the schools. The figure of prospective school population is now quite markedly different from any imagined at the time Lord Eccles made his original statement. It is for that reason only that I am not able to make a definite statement now.

Is the right hon. Gentleman now going back even on what Lord Eccles said? The failure of the Government to implement theCrowther Report will be a major black mark on their education policy. Is it not becoming increasingly clear that they will not make a statement until the eve of the General Election?

I am not going back on what Lord Eccles said. I will fulfil exactly the pledge he gave the House. It is worth remembering that there will be a step forward in the next education year when Christmas leaving at the minimum age will be abolished, and that this will make a reality of the fourth year in all secondary schools.

:Is it not the case that there is an ever increasing and encouraging number of children attending secondary modern schools after the age of 15?

That is correct. Voluntary staying on has risen in this Parliament from about one-third to nearly two-fifths. But that does not alter the fact of the pledge by my predecessor that a further statement would be made in this Parliament, and I certainly intend to fulfil it.

asked the Minister of Education why he has refused to allow Blackburn local education authority to proceed with any major school building projects in 1964–65, in view of the urgent need to replace some of the outworn schools in the town, particularly the St. Mary's Roman Catholic Secondary School for Boys.

The 1964–65 school building programme consists mainly of projects needed to keep pace with housing developments and to complete the reorganisation of all-age schools. Blackburn had no projects in these categories. It was possible for me to include only a relatively small number of proposals to replace and improve existing schools. The proposals put forward by the Blackburn authority for this category were less immediately urgent than others, which were included, from other parts of the country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Blackburn education authority submitted six major proposals to him, all of them urgent, for 1964–65 and that he has turned down every one? Is he also aware that the authority gave top priority to the rebuilding of St. Mary's Roman Catholic School for Boys, and that his own Department is in no doubt that this should take place as quickly as possible because the school is housed in the worst education buildings in the town? Is he further aware that the Roman Catholic authorities have their plans already made, and that they have played their part very fully in the reorganisation of all-age schools? Yet they are now being penalised. Will he reconsider this matter?

:I am aware of what the hon. Lady has said. I wonder whether she is aware that an adjoining authority, Lancashire, was given four major replacement projects. It is difficult to allocate these things absolutely fairly, but I would point out that this is only the second occasion since 1952 that Blackburn has had a blank programme, which is not a bad record for an authority of that size. Altogether, 15 major projects have been approved there in the last 13 building programmes.

:Has my right hon. Friend seen photographs of this school? If he has, would not he agree that it was worn out many years ago and is now a scandal?

I have seen photographs. I accept that it was extremely difficult, particularly in the North, to decide the exact order of priorities for replacements. Without any reference to this particular school, it is my hope to make a further statement shortly about the school building programme.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education why the Summerson Council has not granted all areas of art study to Hornsey School of Art.

:The Hornsey College of Art and Crafts was approved by the National Council for Diploma in Art and Design to offer courses leading to the Diploma in Art and Design in the fine art and graphic design areas of study. The National Council was not satisfied that the courses proposed by the college in the two remaining areas, namely three dimensional design and fashion/textiles, measured up to the exacting standards required for the new diploma.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the condition of the buildings entered into the Council's decision at all, and whether it took into account the fact that this is the Middlesex College of Art, covering a wide and densely populated area of Middlesex and the northern Home Counties? Since there is a very strong argument for making Hornsey and similar colleges in different parts of the country centres of art for their regions, with all areas of study, will the right hon. Gentleman bear the geographical aspect in mind when fresh applications are made to him by Hornsey and other colleges?

Certainly I will. With regard to the first part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question, I can assure her that, in reaching its decision, the National Council was fully aware of the projected rebuilding of the college. As the hon. Lady knows, there is a £200,000 instalment in the 1964–65 programme. The Council made every allowance for present accommodation difficulties.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to alleviate the position of students at colleges of art who have been taking the preliminary course for the new Diploma in Art and Design, but for more than 50 per cent. of whom no places for the diploma course will be available.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will make special provision for those suitably qualified students at present unable to find places in Diploma in Art and Design courses this autumn to complete such courses.

There are at present about 2,900 students taking pre-diploma courses whose age and educational quali- fications make them eligible for a course leading to the new Diploma in Art and Design. It is not yet known how many will complete the pre-diploma course successfully. Diploma courses approved by the National Council for Diplomas in Art and Design will provide approximately 1,400 places next autumn. Arrangements were announced last January for shortened courses leading to the existing Intermediate examination and National Diploma in Design to provide for those students who are unable to obtain places in the new diploma course.

In the first place, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there has been a most deplorable lack of forethought in this matter, and that it was most undesirable that so many students should have been allowed to enter a pre-diploma course although there is not the slightest chance whatever that they can obtain places in diploma courses, leading to the most severe disappointment and frustration for those concerned?

I am sorry. If the hon. Lady would like to come and speak to me about the details she has raised, which I think raise issues that are not easy to discuss at Question Time, I should be very pleased to see her, and indeed see a deputation of two or three hon. Members if there is concern about this.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we fully appreciate the difficulties of the present situation, but we have to pay regard to two things in particular: One is the calibre of the students who are attracted to these courses, and we ought to avoid being unfair to them if we can possibly do so. Secondly, there is the geographical effect of the implementation of these recommendations.

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. If a student wishes to extend his pre-diploma course for a year in the hope of obtaining in 1964 a place on a course which will lead to the Diploma in Art and Design, his local education authority can at its discretion pay a grant for the whole period of the pre-diploma course, and I think that this will be of help to some students.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people who generally support the idea of diplomas and even accept the Summerson recommendations feel that he has made an unholy mess of the transitional arrangements and that the steps he has so far announced are inadequate to deal with the very many problems which have arisen? Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the whole matter?

:The hon. Gentleman asks me to reconsider this. We have the report of the Council and I am sure that we cannot go back on the decisions here about stringent standards; but as for the consequences of this and the implications for students, I am ready to discuss and reconsider any concrete ideas that are put forward.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will increase the number of exchange teachers to be sent to America in 1964–65 under the exchange of teachers programme.

:I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary gave to his Question on 11th April. I have now agreed to receive a deputation from the British Interchange Committee on 30th July.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that both he and I agree that these exchanges are not only good for education, but for British-American friendship? Is not the moment now opportune for stepping up the exchanges that we arrange to the numbers that existed before he cut them down?

:This is difficult in view of the different financial standards on both sides of the Atlantic, but, as the hon. Gentleman said, I attach great importance to the exchanges and I am looking forward to discussing this matter with the deputation at the end of the month.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the concern of the Leyton Borough Council about the economies affecting education in that borough; and if he will consult the Essex County Council with a view to reconsidering those economies which affect the Borough of Leyton.

I appreciate the borough council's disappointment that none of the Essex projects in the 1964–65 building programme is in its area. I have recently seen a deputation from the Essex education authority to discuss the most urgent of its outstanding proposals, which did not include those in Leyton.

May I ask whether the Minister has received a communication or representations from the Leyton Borough Council on this matter? Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this is causing very strong feelings in all quarters of Leyton, and is it not disappointing in the extreme that when he saw this deputation of the Essex County Council it did not include Leyton? Will he see that this is done?

The hon. Gentleman must realise that I am in a difficulty. I saw a deputation from Essex. I agreed to the inclusion of one more school that was clearly urgently needed, but the proposals did not include any schools in the Leyton area. It is Essex which is the local education authority. It may be that we could discuss this in the context of the proposals for the London Government Bill, but we cannot do that now. That is my difficulty, and I am bound to have regard to the order of priority which the local education authority puts to me.

Is it not shameful?

I should not like to express a view about that. It is not for me to dogmatise on the priorities put to me by other authorities.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will make a statement on salary scales of teachers in colleges of advanced technology.

asked the Minister of Education why no increase in salary has been offered to lecturers and assistant lecturers at colleges of advanced technology.

It is the Government's intention that the salaries of staff in the colleges of advanced technology should be related to those of university teachers with comparable responsibilities. Both sets of salaries are being reviewed simultaneously by the National Incomes Commission. In the meantime it is desirable that nothing should be done to accentuate any divergencies between the two systems. The reason why the increases which have recently been announced for college of advanced technology teachers do not include any increases for lecturers and assistant lecturers is that the existing salary scales for these grades are already comparable with those of the corresponding grades in universities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the A.U.T. has described his action as disgraceful, and the A.T.T.I. has described it as a gross injustice? This is not the first time that the right hon. Gentleman has been stigmatised by the bodies with whom he is in negotiation. Is he further aware that they complain that there has not been proper negotiation? As it is clear, that C.A.T.s are to be prejudiced unless action is taken, will he say that we cannot afford to wait for the report from N.I.C. but that some action will have to be taken in view of the fact that junior staffs of the C.A.T.s are the only staffs of the teaching world who will have had no increase?

:The hon. Gentleman has raised three points. As regards the views of the A.U.T. and the A.T.T.I., I have taken my stand on the point on which I must continue to stand, that C.A.T.s staffs must in future expect their salaries to move in step with university salaries rather than with salaries in technical colleges. C.A.T.s cannot be between the two, part of the range being comparable with universities, and the lower half being comparable with regional colleges.

This is too long.

I was asked three questions on this important subject. I personally interviewed both sides. Finally, the starting salary of a C.A.T. lecturer at £1,600 is equivalent to that of a university lecturer after six years' service.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the staffs of the colleges of advanced technology say that there is no properly worked out system of equivalents and that many of them have had industrial experience, some of it of considerable length, before entering teaching, but that it is not taken into account when they are compared with university staff?

:Can I assure the hon. Lady that we have tried to take this into account? The starting salary of a C.A.T. lecturer is £1,600, while the basic minimum for a university lecturer is £1,250. After looking into this carefully, I believe that the disparity is wide enough to cover differences in conditions.

asked the Minister of Education if he will give the names of the members of the committee which is to study primary education.

I hope to make an announcement next week.

While I would not make any personal criticism of the chairman and vice-chairman of this very important committee, would it not have been better to appoint a primary head teacher as its chairman? As the Minister has not done that, can he assure us that he will appoint to this committee members of the teaching profession who know about primary schools and citizens who have been educated in primary schools?

:I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the committee, whose membership I hope to announce next week, will include strong representation of all the appropriate sectors of the education service. I must say that I believe that Lady Plowden will make an admirable chairman of this committee.

:While I welcome the decision to appoint a committee to investigate primary schools, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether any member is to be appointed who has direct teaching experience in primary schools? If not, why not? Would it not be logical and practical for my right hon. Friend to do so?

I think that when my hon. Friend sees the list he will agree that all the appropriate sectors of the education service, including the practical representatives of the teaching profession, are reasonably represented on the committee.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of widespread concern over the methods used in the appointment of teachers in Wales; and whether he will instruct the Central Advisory Council for Wales to investigate and report on the position.

I have seen recent articles and letters in the Welsh Press about this matter but I have received no evidence. The Central Advisory Council for Edu- cation (Wales) is not in any case an appropriate body to which matters of this kind could be referred.

May I assure my right hon. Friend that I will let him have copies of the correspondence which has recently been appearing in the columns of the Western Mail? Is he aware that they contain allegations of nepotism, favouritism and canvassing in connection with the appointments of teachers in Wales? Is he further aware that in some parts of Wales it now appears to be more important to be a member of the Labour Party, or a member of the Co-operative movement, rather than to have educational ability, to obtain such appointments?

Of course I will consider any evidence which my hon. Friend puts to me but, with all respect to our friends in the Press, I am bound to say that few people would say that"think pieces", as they are sometimes called, either in the form of articles or letters, are necessarily precise evidence. But of course I will consider any points put to me.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the recent adoption of the Swedish plan to save the temples of Abu Simbel, whether he will reconsider his decision not to contribute to the appeal by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.

I am giving further consideration to this question in the light of recent developments.

Is it not a cause for shame that of all major Western European countries, at present Britain alone has failed to contribute?

:The original scheme put forward was very questionable from the point of view of U.N.E.S.C.O. resources, but I do not exclude the possibility of a United Kingdom contribution. The point is that this is a matter which must be further considered, and I am perfectly ready to get in touch with the hon. Member, or any other hon. Member, when I have further news.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that some very urgent rethinking has been done on this issue? While the building of the reservoir is of dire necessity for the people of Egypt, the preservation of these temples is a challenge to the culture of the whole world. Will he promise to reconsider his decision?

:I said precisely that I am doing so. As my hon. Friend will know, the decision to proceed with the Swedish plan has already been taken formally by the U.A.R. and U.N.E.S.C.O.

Is the Minister aware that the matter has now entirely changed because the cost of the new scheme will be very much less than the original? Will he bear in mind that there is some urgency about this matter and that it would be regarded as most invidious if this country of all the great Powers were the only one which did not make a contribution to preserve these unique temples?

I will certainly bear in mind all the points the hon. Gentleman has made.

asked the Minister of Education how many local education authorities in England and Wales still retain the eleven-plus system of examination.

Many local education authorities are experimenting with new selection arrangements, some of which rely more on teachers' assessments and less on formal tests, but so far as I am aware only the Anglesey authority does not operate a system of secondary school selection.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the 11-plus system of examination is satisfactory? Would he consider advising local education authorities to try the comprehensive system?

:We must distinguish between the 11-plus examination and selection procedures and the pattern of secondary school organisation. These are not the same thing. I hope to have something to say on this subject tomorrow when I address the Association of Education Committees. I should get into trouble with the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) if I attempted to give my views on these two subjects at Question Time.

:Before the right hon. Gentleman makes his statement tomorrow, will he appreciate that the next Government will abolish the 11-plus examination? In view of this, is it not time that he took preparatory action?

This is exactly the point I am on, because the statement of the party opposite, that it is to abolish the 11-plus, was slightly weakened by the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, that any grammar school would be closed over his dead body.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs to what extent the policy stated in paragraph 75 of Command Paper No. 2050 represents a change in Government policy.

:The statements in paragraph 75 of the White Paper are fully in accord with the Government's frequently declared policy on housing subsidies and the cost of housing.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in paragraph 75 of that Command Paper he says that people are prepared to meet the cost of owning a house of their own? Will he remember that hundreds of thousands of people who cannot afford to pay for a home are having to do so, and are in great difficulty, because it is the only way in which they can get a house? As the Minister responsible for local government, will he set up an inquiry to go into the costs of building and to report to the House?

I am glad to say that the numbers of houses are in general rising and that the Government are increasing the programme, both public and private, because of the need.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in his discussions with local authorities, mentioned in paragraph 76 of Command Paper No. 2050, he will give an assurance that he will take into account all proposals made by local authorities in England and Wales for housing subsidies.

:Yes, Sir. But I hope that any local authority with a suggestion to make will, as a matter of convenience, put it forward through the appropriate local authority association.

In the meantime, when discussing local government finance would the right hon. Gentleman consider the fact that interest repayments form a great proportion of the cost of building houses and schools?

Interest will, of course, be one of the costs which will be taken into account.

Have not local authorities already laid great stress on that aspect of the matter in their communications to the right hon. Gentleman?

Some local authorities have, but this is to be a thorough overhaul of all housing subsidies, all the costs and all the incomes.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what steps he proposes to take to safeguard tenants of decontrolled houses, who request the installation of a bath, inside water closet or hot water system, from eviction by their landlords.

Details of the scheme for compulsory improvement are now being worked out, and I think it is best to see the whole scheme before debating particular points.

Does not the danger of tenants being deterred from seeking improvements through fear of eviction point to a serious weakness in the Minister's recent proposals? Would it not be better if the initiative in seeking improvements were placed firmly in the hands of local authorities? Alternatively, would the right hon. Gentleman consider restoring protection, or control to tenants who seek the permission of local authorities for improvements, as under the rent tribunal procedure?

I think that the hon. Member misjudges the attitude of very nearly every landlord, but the point he is making will be borne in mind.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many tenants who are very worried about repairing serious sanitary defects in their homes because they expect that the result of their so doing will be eviction, and that this fear is widespread?

No. I am not aware of that, but the point will be borne in mind.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will state his estimate of council house building programmes for 1963, 1964 and 1965.

I expect to see an increase of about 6 per cent. in the number of houses approved for local authorities and new towns during 1963. I would not wish to make precise forecasts for subsequent years, but I would refer the hon. Member to the steadily expanding programme envisaged in the recent Housing White Paper.

:Surely the totals that the Minister has in mind are quite inadequate to meet the long waiting lists of those who cannot afford to buy houses. Surely, when we could build 190,000 houses way back in 1948, we can do better today, and not far worse?

:As the hon. Member knows, practically every building craftsman in England and Wales is fully employed on building. Under a Tory Government there is a simultaneous record programme on every side of social investment, including housing.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will amend the Town and Country Planning Use Classes Order to enable the number of betting offices in an area to be taken into account by local authorities when applications for betting offices are considered.

It is for the licensing justices to control the number of betting offices under the Betting and Gaming Act, 1960, and my right hon. Friend thinks that it would be wrong to try to duplicate the control under planning powers. The Use Classes Order would not, in any event, be an appropriate instrument for the purpose which the hon. Lady has in mind.

:Is the Minister aware of the concern of local authorities about the flood of applications for new betting offices which come before them, and about their lack of planning powers to reduce these applications even where the number of betting offices in an area is already excessive? Since this planning aspect is entirely the responsibility of the Minister, will he take whatever action is appropriate to give local authorities these planning powers?

:I have no knowledge of any representations from local planning authorities on this score. I can see no possible objective in duplicating powers that already exist.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) if he will make a statement on the discussions with the London County Council on the proposed new town for 25,000 people on Erith Marshes; how many meetings have been held; and what further meetings are contemplated;

Earlier this year officers of the London County Council and my Department discussed general questions of financial assistance towards the cost of developing the Woolwich Arsenal— Erith Marshes land and of moving industry into the area, in the event that the county council should decide to go forward with such a scheme. In view of the unusual site conditions, I would expect the London County Council to seek further informal discussions with my Department on the availability of housing subsidies, particularly those payable on expensive sites and tall block of flats. No decision is called for from me on any sharing of the cost by the Kent County Council.

:I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said, but can he give an assurance that he is closely watching developments here, in view of the fact that in many ways this is different from and much more costly than anything that has been attempted by a local authority before? Secondly, does he appreciate the impact that this is creating upon local people where the transport system is already working to the maximum capacity, and also where there are difficulties in getting jobs? In view of the special nature of this project, may we be assured that the right hon. Gentleman is keeping all these things in mind?

These things are not yet for me, except where local authorities like the L.C.C. wish to consult the Department informally about possible contributions under possible conditions. I am sure that the L.C.C. will study the points which have been made by the hon. Member in his Question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what steps he is taking to help local authorities who wish to have yacht marinas in their areas; and what advice he has given to planning authorities.

My right hon. Friend has as yet received no proposals from any local authority to provide a yacht marina itself, and he has no reason to suppose that planning authorities need any advice from him on the subject.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that many people who are interested in leisure and sailing in all its forms throughout the country, including the Midland area, on occasion find that local authorities at the seaside are somewhat unco-operative? Will he look into this matter closely at all times?

I can only assure my hon. Friend that as and when applications for planning permission come forward they will be considered on their merits in the same way as any other applications.

In this connection will the Minister bear in mind the letter I have written to him recently about the proposal of the Middlesex authority for a marina—a proposal which is jeopardised by his intention to allow the land in question to be used, instead, by St. Paul's School?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what reply he has sent to a letter from the Town Clerk of Derby dated 12th June, 1963, concerning the serious nuisance caused by the emission of smoke from the premises of G. E. Baker (Metals) Limited, and Denby Metals Limited, Great Northern Road, Derby.

The town clerk has been told that my right hon. Friend's consent is not required to the service of an abatement notice. His consent would be required before proceedings could be taken against the company, but as at present advised he would not consider himself justified in giving it.

:Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I am asking this Question at the request of the borough council? Is he further aware that it is now seven years since the so-called Clean Air Act was passed? This appalling nuisance in Derby has been getting worse ever since. Will he urge upon his right hon. Friend that he should assure the council that he will give consent to proceedings?

My right hon. Friend is advised by the Alkali Inspectorate that this company is doing all that it can reasonably be expected to do to meet this problem. As the right hon. Gentleman no doubt knows, that would constitute a defence to proceedings. I am bound to say that I cannot think that this would be a very profitable exercise.

:Will the Parliamentary Secretary and his right hon. Friend look at this matter again? It is at least five years since the Alkali Inspectorate told me exactly what it is now saying—and it is too long.