asked the Secretary of State for War how much pension is received by a brigadier's widow with three children who lost her husband on 3rd November, 1958; and how much would she receive for herself and her three children if her husband had died the next day, assuming in each case that the husband retired on the 1956 Code after maximum service and that the widow is 50 years of age.

£448 and £893 a year.

:Does my right hon. Friend recall that on 20th December his predecessor said that these pensions were intended to be rewards for service? Ought there not, therefore, to be similar rewards for similar service, and is it not quite wrong that a widow in similar circumstances whose husband retired at the same time, with the same service and in the same rank, should receive about half the pension of a widow whose husband died one day later? Will not my right hon. Friend consult the other Service Ministers and the Minister of Defence to see whether something can be done to remedy this unjust state of affairs?

This matter has been referred to on a number of occasions recently in the House. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said, in answer to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) the other day, that he was looking into the whole question. I cannot go beyond that.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will revise the present regulations concerning adventure training so far as they affect members of the Women's Royal Army Corps.

The extent to which members of the Women's Royal Army Corps take part in adventure training schemes is decided locally in consultation with the senior W.R.A.C. commander. The latest War Office directive on adventure training was issued on 18th June this year. It is, of course, a document which lays down policy: detailed supervision of exercises must remain a command responsibility. I shall consider, after the inquiry into the recent incident has been completed, whether the directive should require further revision.

While not wishing to be a spoilsport or to stop all the girls' fun and games, may I nevertheless ask my right hon. Friend to ensure that members of the W.R.A.C. are not necessarily put in a position where they are in danger of suffering death or capture in a hostile or wild country?

:It is not a question of fun and games. I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that these are serious exercises carried out for important purposes of morale and experience. I would not, however, wish to say anything further on this matter until I see the report of the inquiry.

:Would my right hon. Friend agree that the W.R.A.C. would not wish any special rules or regulations to be made for them or imposed upon them and that they interpret with common sense the regulations made by the C.-in-C. of the area concerned?

I am grateful for that comment from my hon. Friend. I fully endorse what she has said and I consider it important that they should act fully as part of the Services.

asked the Secretary of State for War what steps are taken to ensure that before surplus land is disposed of by his Department the value of the land in the hands of the developer is ascertained.

The planning position is ascertained and the land valued by fully qualified professional staff who take into account all prospects of development.

:I thank my right hon. Friend for giving me some indication of the set procedure. Will he say whether the advice of an outside valuer is taken into account in these matters and whether it is the value in the hand of the developer that is always taken into account?

:We use our own professional advisers in these matters, but, of course, most of the Army land that is offered is put up for auction. We always consult the auctioneers, and this is one way in which we ensure getting the best value for the land.

:Is the Minister aware that the land owned by the Army is of enormous value and that for development purposes a great deal of it is being inadequately used? Will he be very careful indeed about how it is disposed of?

:Yes, I think that is a perfectly fair point, and I did indicate last week that I wanted to look into this. I entirely agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman on that point.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will arrange for the testing for War Department purposes of an American fork-lift truck and a British fork-lift truck, details of which have been sent to him.

:The American fork-lift truck referred to was tested in 1961; it is now in service with the Army and is giving a satisfactory performance. I shall be pleased to arrange for tests to be made of a production model of the British truck.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the offer which he has made to have the British model tested with the American one will be very gladly received indeed and that his invitation will be accepted? In view of that, I shall not have anything more to say about it at this stage.

asked the Secretary of State for War how many four-wheel-drive tractor shovels have been purchased since 1st January, 1956; what has been the total cost; how many have been purchased from American companies or those with American connections; how many have been purchased from British companies; what was the procedure followed in inviting British firms to tender; and why no invitation was sent to a British firm, the name of which has been sent to him.

:Since 1st January, 1956, my Department has bought 540 tractor shovels at a total cost of £3·63 million, all of which were manufactured in Britain; 291 of them, at a value of £1·52 million, were purchased from a firm with American connections and 249, at a value of £2·11 million, from firms with no such connections. These tractors were bought partly by single tender and partly by competitive tender. The British firm referred to was not invited to tender because neither of the two models offered by them was considered suitable at the time.

:But is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the firm to which he refers is world-famous for this sort of product? Is he not aware that if the models required for military purposes were different from those required for commercial purposes and if this firm had been told what the Army wanted—which it was not—it could have made them in a fraction of the time any of the Americans would have taken? At a time when work is badly needed, is it not essential to give 100 per cent. British firms an opportunity to produce goods for which they are world-famous?

Of course we want to buy British equipment wherever we can, but also it is essential that we see that the Army has the best equipment possible. We have to balance these things. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we do look most carefully to British products which come forward.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for War when the inquiry by the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for War into Major Cory's court-martial was commenced; who was appointed to conduct the inquiry; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for War if the inquiry now taking place into the case of Major Cory covers both granting Service men the right to bail pending appeal against court-martial decisions and granting compensation to Major Cory.

:The inquiry was begun on 19th April as soon as the transcript of the judgment of the Court-Martial Appeal Court had become available. The detailed work of the investigation was done by staff of my noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor's Department and my Department.

While thanking the Secretary of State for War for his reply, may I ask whether we can have some indication of when the report of the inquiry will be published? Will it be published before the House goes into Recess? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people are concerned as to the whole of the court-martial procedure? In the meantime, is there not a danger of soldiers having to serve a very long period of punishment and of completing it before there is an opportunity to appeal?

:It is because of the very important issues involved and of the very involved nature of this case that it requires very careful consideration. My noble Friend and I are hoping to get together and discuss it later this week, but he, of course, is very heavily engaged in other matters as well, and we must have time to consider the various aspects of it. I am fully aware of the importance of it, and if it is possible to give a report before the House goes into Recess, that is what I would wish to do.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will reconsider and relax the restriction on recruitment of young men who have previously been convicted of dishonesty, however minor, particularly where this restriction is preventing former approved school boys, with good records at school and after release, from choosing a career in the Army.

Boys from approved schools may be considered for the Army six months after their release and the present rules do ensure that their applications are treated on their merits. We do accept boys who have been at approved schools whenever they are judged suitable.

Yes, but do I detect in what the right hon. Gentleman has said a note of real sympathy about the case behind this Question? Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to go so far as to say that a misdemeanour committed by a boy, and followed by approved school training and a good record at school and a good record on release, will not dog him for the rest of his life if he wants to make the Army his career? Will he make this absolutely clear to governors of approved schools, like myself, so that we may know exactly where we are in these matters?

:Yes, I am glad the hon. Member has raised this point. We have, of course, to safeguard the position of the Army in relation to the people who are allowed to join. It is an important factor. On the other hand, we want to see that where a boy can rehabilitate himself in this way he should be given the opportunity. That is why I say that I think that six months is a reasonable interval in which to allow us to judge. We do not want to prevent his entry, but we must at the same time have certain safeguards.

:While not knowing specifically about the case to which this Question refers, may I ask my right hon. Friend to be extremely careful about relaxing standards in the Army, because some of us feel that it is just this sort of relaxation—and television advertising and so on—which leads to entry of the type of person who walks out?

Condemn them for life?

I quite understand the point my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. B. Harrison), but this is not a question of relaxation; it is a question of tightening up.

:May I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on both his accession to office in his present Department and also on having some regard to the standard of recruits taken into the Army, because that is a marked change in Government policy?

:I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his personal comment, but I do not think I can accept that there is a change in Government policy.

asked the Secretary of State for War in which countries where troops are serving there are no arrangements for a coroner's inquest on the accidental death of a soldier; and what alternative arrangements exist in these countries.

A coroner's inquest is a civil institution which can be held on the deaths of soldiers only in territories where it is also held on those of civilians. It is an English institution and exists outside England only where the English legal system has been adopted. Army boards of inquiry are normally held on all unnatural deaths of soldiers overseas irrespective of any civil inquiry.

:Would my right hon. Friend agree that an Army court of inquiry under the court of inquiry rules is totally unsatisfactory from the point of view of the relatives of the deceased who want to have some simple procedure like that of a coroner's inquest? Would he, therefore, look very carefully into the question of setting up some new form of inquiry which would produce exactly the same results as a coroner's inquest, since a coroner's inquest does provide the next of kin with some satisfaction as to the cause of death which they do not get out of an Army court of inquiry?

Yes, I recognise that this is a difficult matter. I think my hon. Friend does know something about the background of this particular case. I think, however, that it is difficult for us to agree to anything of the kind he has suggested, but I am willing to discuss with him any way in which it may be possible to satisfy the next of kin in cases of this sort.

asked the Secretary of State for War what defects have been discovered in the F.N. rifle and what action is proposed to ensure that the most modern rifle is available to British forces.

:A number of defects, mostly of a very minor nature, have been found in the F.N. rifle since its introduction into Army service in 1957. All have been overcome by modifications with the exception of a defect in the hand guard. A re-design of this part of the rifle is nearing completion and will be introduced as soon as possible. The F.N. rifle as modified is a thoroughly effective modern weapon. A regards the future we examine continuously all new designs of weapons and discussions within N.A.T.O. are held regularly on this subject.

Has not the discovery of these defects over a period of time in the Belgian F.N. rifle been a complete vindication of the attitude of the experts of the War Office twelve years ago and a vindication of myself in refusing to accept during the negotiations at Washington on this subject the Belgian F.N. rifle but preferring the British rifle, and is it not also a condemnation of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), who reversed the decision taken by the Labour Government representative at Washington?

I realise that the right hon. Gentleman has a great background of knowledge of this subject, which I would not attempt to deny for one moment, but I do not think I can accept his strictures on my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), who has taken very wise decisions on this and very many other matters. In relation to this rifle, I do assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Army is very well satisfied with it. It is a very effective rifle. I am not going into the back history of it. It has been debated many times in this House. It is an effective rifle. That is what matters at the moment.

Will the right hon. Gentleman refresh or enlighten his mind by looking at columns 378, 379 and 380 in the Official Report of 25th April, 1951, when he will discover what happened on that occasion and how wise were those of us who came to the conclusion that it was far better to have a British-produced rifle, as advised by the experts in the War Office, than to accept the view of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill)?

I recognise that this is a matter with which the right hon. Gentleman has had a great deal to do. I shall be very glad to read those past records. I am sure, however, that the right hon. Gentleman recognises the importance of getting standard equipment in N.A.T.O. This is one of the difficulties involved.

asked the Secretary of State for War why his Department in the case of Whitfield versus the War Office at Exeter Assize on 31st October, 1961, withdrew a counter-charge of trespass against Mr. Whitfield and accepted full liability for Mr. Whitfield's son's death on northern Dartmoor.

The War Office could only agree to settle Mr. Whitfield's claim on the basis that their use of the land where the accident occurred was lawful. This was not possible until the trial of the action had progressed some way when, after a discussion between counsel on both sides, an agreement was reached which was satisfactory to all the parties concerned. This agreement was to the effect that:

Will the right hon. Gentleman examine the record again, when I think he will find that Mr. Whitfield's counsel made a charge that the byelaws on which the War Office rested their case had lapsed in 1950 and that it was only then that the War Office withdrew the charge? Will he consider again the request for a public inquiry so that all these things can be properly examined in public and so that he can refute the charge that the War Office is seeking to make him a military dictator?

I do not think there is any cause for that. I told the hon. Gentleman last week that the best legal advice I could get on the subject was that the byelaws were still in force. I told him that this was the background of the information which I gave him. I have the details here. It is all very involved, and I do not think it would be right for me to elaborate on it before the House at Question Time.

:If the right hon. Gentleman still maintains that his position in law is right, surely it is very odd that he should have consented to a judgment which was based on precisely the opposite view of the law—that is, that Regulation 52 had ended in 1950 and with it, of course, the byelaw which was made under that Regulation?

As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, I have no legal background, but the advice that I have is that the byelaws in force on 10th December, 1950, were still valid byelaws in force in spite of the expiry in December, 1958, of paragraph 2 of Regulation 52 of the Defence Regulations. This is the position by virtue of the application of Section 1(3) of the Emergency Laws (Transition of Provision) Act, 1946, and Section 1(3) of the Emergency Laws (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1947. That is the advice under which I am operating at the present time.

Why did the right hon. Gentleman consent—

Mr. Paget, for the next Question.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement as to the circumstances attending the crash of a Belgian transport on a British Army of the Rhine range at Sennelager on 26th June.

I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my sympathy with the relatives of those who died.

This side of the House joins the right hon. Gentleman in expressing sympathy with the relatives of those who lost their lives in this very tragic accident. May we take it that when it has been ascertained what the cause of this very serious loss of life was, there will be a further statement?

Yes, Sir; indeed.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement on the desertion of Corporal Patchett.

Corporal Patchett, who is a member of the Intelligence Corps, has been missing from his unit in Berlin since 2nd July, 1963. An inquiry is being held into the circumstances of his absence.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any indication at all of how people are selected for the Intelligence Corps and particularly for posting to such a sensitive area as Berlin? This appears to be a young man with a highly unsatisfactory record of employment, and also with a girl friend with East German links. Does it not seem a very odd selection?

There are factors in this which obviously have to be looked at by the inquiry. As to the last point, I would suggest that the links with the girl friend did not arise until after the man had been selected and after he had reached Berlin.

As defections of this kind affecting both East and West appear to be occurring quite frequently, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that in order to avoid all this trouble and these inquiries he might consider setting up a sensible transfer system?

I take note of the hon Gentleman's suggestion. I do not think I could do more.

Will my right hon. Friend investigate the allegations that have been made that this young man's career in commercial life before he joined the Army was not checked and correctly investigated, and if not, why not?

:As to the positive vetting which was employed, there were two referees and both gave most excellent reports, and this was the basis on which the man was accepted for this work. As I have said, this will be discussed, among other things, in the inquiry which has been set up.

Is it not a fact that the inquiries were made of the vicar of the man's parish, and that no reference was made to his employer, no reference was made to the school authorities and no reference was made to anyone who knew anything about him? Will the right hon. Gentleman also be good enough to say whether the inquiry which is being made is the normal inquiry which is always held when a soldier is illegally absent and, if that is the case, how can it possibly inquire into the other matters which the right hon. Gentleman said it would?

:There will be the normal inquiry but, obviously, this does not prevent other inquiries from being made. In regard to the particular point which the hon. Gentleman raised, it is perfectly true that the previous employer was not questioned. As I said, two referees were asked for, and two were given, and both of them gave very satisfactory reports.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why adequate facilities for operations and treatment are not available at hospitals in Caithness and Sutherland, resulting in some patients having to be sent to Inverness; and, in cases where specialist services are required, why the daily air service between Inverness and Wick is not used to bring the specialists to Caithness instead of the patients being sent to Inverness.

Full diagnostic and treatment facilities, with specialist staff, accommodation and equipment, could not be provided economically, or fully used, outside the main centres of population. Visiting specialists already use the air service, but there is a limit to the usefulness of their work where they have no supporting facilities. The appointment of a consultant physician for the area is, however, under consideration.

Is it not the case that Caithness is the largest community north of Inverness and that the hospitals which are there are converted private houses more than a century old? Is it not also true that these hospitals have out-of-date equipment? Why cannot modern equipment be installed immediately?

Because, as I have told my hon. Friend, the Northern Regional Hospital Board is planning for a start to the new hospital early in 1964.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the hardship being caused to patients in the Highlands who, under the existing arrangements, have to pay their own fares in order to receive treatment in distant hospitals; and if he will accordingly alter the arrangements, so that those people do not get less favourable treatment than those who live south of the Highland line.

:Existing arrangements provide for payment of fares if hardship is shown; I recognise that journeys may be long in the Highlands and other rural areas but the cost is fully taken into account in assessing hardship.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these conditions apply only north of the Highlands line? Is it not wrong that patients should have to make a round trip of 300 miles for treatment? Is he also aware of the impossibility of trying to get any money out of the authorities to compensate them? Will he not take action to make this national service equal instead of most unequal as now?

:It is an exceedingly difficult matter to achieve complete equality because obviously, travelling long distances in the Highlands to hospital is a different proposition from taking a bus to hospital in a town. I appreciate that. However, the Statutes under which we are operating are based on hardship, and it is on hardship that help can be given.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Highland people are very proud and do not like to get public assistance in this way, as they have to do today? Surely he could meet my hon. Friend's point on this?

I agree about the pride of the Highland people, but as we know—and we get a good many letters from constituents about this—a good many people can be helped.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply has been sent to the petition he received from the Hermitage School Parent Teacher Association regarding the postponement of building the new Hermitage Academy.

:I have already sent the hon. Member a copy of my reply to the Association. I told them that the Education Authority had put the case very fully to me and I assured them that the claims of this school would stand high if circumstances should enable me to approve further starts this financial year.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Civil Lord of the Admiralty has yet had the discussions with him that he promised that he would have following the Admiralty decision to lease Faslane as a base and the announcement that 900 children will have to be provided for in school accommodation? Can the right hon. Gentleman also say whether the £25 million to be spent on this base includes money for the provision of school accommodation, or whether this will have to come from the Secretary of State's Vote? In view of the new situation which has arisen, will this school not now be begun very quickly?

:The money will have to come out of the funds which I allocate and not from the Admiralty. I have discussed this problem with the Civil Lord, and it is largely because of this extra commitment that I realise how important this school is to the area.

When is it going to start?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the long delay experienced by John O'Brien, 121, Catto Drive, Peterhead, in getting admission to hospital; and when he expects that appropriate accommodation will be available for him.

:I regret that I cannot say how soon there will be a permanent place for this boy, but arrangements have been made to admit him temporarily to Woodlands Home, Cults, from 1st to 20th August.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that respite, may I ask whether he is aware that four years ago the parents of this unfortunate child were told that they would have to wait only another two years for a permanent place in hospital for him, but that now—four years later—they are told that they will have to wait still longer? They still cannot get a definite date. Will not my right hon. Friend take urgent action to see that special measures are put in hand to rectify this unfortunate situation?

:I have the greatest sympathy for the parents in this case. New accommodation for this type of case should be ready by March next year, and it may well be that we shall be able to find accommodation for this boy before then.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further consideration he has given to the request of the Clydebank Town Council for grant for the extension of the Burncrook Filters.

In the absence of any evidence that this scheme has some material effect on the provision of new jobs, I cannot depart from my reply to the Clydebank and District Water Trust that grant cannot be given on the scheme under the Local Employment Act.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the President of the Board of Trade has given an assurance that, if Clydebank Town Council can get a customer for the industrial site there, it will reacquire it from Ingersoll Rand but that the council cannot get a candidate for the site unless it has more water? If it can lay on more water, it will have a better chance of getting that factory and more employment in the area. Will he consider it from that point of view?

:We will certainly consider it from that point of view, but, as the hon. Member knows, under the provisions of the Local Employment Act I am unable to give grant for a water scheme unless there is evidence of new jobs being or to be created. As soon as evidence is available I can consider the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representation he has received respecting the reclassification of roads in the county of Dunbarton.

None recently, Sir.

:But representations have been made within the last few years. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a considerable increase in traffic through the boroughs of Bearsden, Milngavie and Kirkintilloch? In view of the expansion which has taken place and that promised for the future, will the right hon. Gentleman consider applications, if they are made, for reclassification so that we can have more money spent on roads across the County of Dunbarton?

I will consider any application from the county council. As the hon. Gentleman knows, this can only be considered at the present time if the county council has equivalent lengths of other roads to be declassified.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the financial and other assistance given by his Education Department during each of the last 10 years to schools under his jurisdiction for the teaching of languages other than English.

It is not practicable to extract the cost of this particular aspect of school work from the general expenditure on schools. Nor is it practicable to cover within the limits of an Answer the various other kinds of assistance that are given.

In these days of close international relationships, when Scotland is making every effort to increase her international trade, more attention should be paid to the languages of Northern Europe, particularly Scandinavia, with which Scotland has close trade, industrial and commercial ties which she is trying to develop still further. Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage the teaching of these languages for this purpose?

I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman about the importance of foreign languages. We are doing our best to encourage this, and I am glad that he supports us.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total number of statisticians employed in all the departments for which he is responsible; and how many are required to make up the full establishment of these departments.

My departmental staffs include one whole-time statistician, one part-time medical statistician and seven agricultural economists, an important part of whose work is the interpretation of statistics. There are no vacancies. In addition to these specialists, other officers collect and process statistics as part of their normal duties.

In view of the increasing work of these departments, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this staff is large enough to cope with the work that is likely to arise?

:I think the hon. Gentleman realises that a great deal of the statistics which we need and use for Scotland are obtained by the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour. If we find ourselves in difficulty because of shortage of statisticians we will correct the position, but that is not the case today.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that the statistics are accurate, since the figures he gave in opening the recent debate on Scottish industry and employment were manifestly inaccurate?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what amount has been spent on social amenities, and what proportion of its total expenditure is represented in each case, by each new town development corporation in Scotland.

For the period up to 31st March, 1963, the amounts are £43,989 at East Kilbride, £35,350 at Glenrothes, and £23,645 at Cumbernauld. The respective percentages are 0·2, 0·4 and 0·3.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this is an adequate proportion of the new towns' expenditure on social amenities? Has not the time come for him to have a clear look at the need for him to make a special allowance to development corporations to provide the social amenities which ought to go with the housing?

The hon. Lady should not regard this as the only money that is spent on these amenities, for there are many other agencies also helping in this way. But it is at least satisfactory, although comparisons are difficult, to know that we seem to be spending more on this than south of the Border.

Can right hon. Gentlemen translate these sums of money in terms of Section 132 of the 1948 Act? What proportion of the 6d, rate do they represent?

If the hon. Gentleman puts down a Question in those terms I will try to answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why he will not introduce legislation to abolish multures.

:I am not aware of public concern about multures or problems arising from them sufficient to justify legislation being introduced.

:I hope my right hon. Friend is aware of what multures are. Government policy is being geared to modernisation, progress and efficiency, but here he is faced with taxation paid by tenants for not grinding their corn at mills that no longer exist. Will he not recognise the extraordinary unfairness of this situation?

:The extraordinary position of multures is no doubt remarkable, but in the efforts to modernise Britain this does not have a very high place in our legislative programme.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that, under the Rent Act 1957, tenants of small rented houses are being asked to buy their houses under threat of eviction by court order; and if he will take steps to end this practice.

:I am aware that there have been cases where landlords of decontrolled houses have given buy or quit notices to tenants since the Rent Act, 1957, but I have no evidence that this is a general practice.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my constituency there are two cases concerning old-age pensioners, both widows, one of 80 and one of 82 and blind, who have received such notices? What action will he take to stop this legalised vicious practice which is pursued under the Act which he introduced? Will he at least reconsider the situation and modify it?

:The very great majority of landlords in Scotland have been very reasonable in the way in which they have treated these cases. If the hon. Member wishes to raise a large number of cases, I will of course consider them, but it is sometimes the position that one or two cases are not properly treated by their landlords.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his estimate of the number of new jobs needed in Scotland in the next seven years to meet a 5 per cent, rate of economic growth, to meet the problem of declining industries, to provide for a growth in the population of employable age, and to prevent migration from Scotland.

:Many factors are involved in working out a pattern for physical and economic development, and I do not think that publication of an estimate on the basis suggested by the hon. Lady would be very realistic or helpful.

Why on earth not? How is Scotland to end the unemployment position if the Secretary of State himself is not prepared to set a target for the number of jobs needed? Is it not perfectly clear that it is possible to take 120,000 as the number of unemployed last winter, about 100,000 as the increased number employable and about 150,000 resulting from the decline of industry?

I am perfectly prepared to do sums in the same way as the hon. Lady has done them. One difficulty is knowing the validity of those sums in any particular case, and it is for that reason that the Scottish Development Group is studying the whole of this problem.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman studied the figures of the Scottish Council for Development and Industry and other figures which have been produced by people who have looked at the problem? Does he not regard them as at all reliable?

I have studied the figures produced by the Scottish Council, but I have heard a number of hon. Gentlemen and hon. Ladies opposite saying that they were not worth looking at.

In answer to Question No. 21, the right hon. Gentleman told us that he had a newly organised body of statisticians to give him all this information and to work it all out for him. He has had the help of the N.E.D.C. targets in Great Britain. Why is he so reluctant to set a target in respect of the growth of employment in Scotland?

I certainly have the help of those people and of my right hon. Friends at the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour, but, as N.E.D.C. itself recognises in its second report, setting targets in a regional sense is a very complicated process.

asked the Secretary of Slate for Scotland what was the average price per acre paid by Scottish local authorities for land for housing development in 1950, 1957 and 1962.

I regret that this information is not available. Local authorities are not obliged to report to me the price they pay for housing land.

Nevertheless, is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the announcement in the Glasgow Herald of 4th July that his Scottish Development Depart- ment proposes that housing land prices be increased for new town development from between about £120 and £150 to £900 to £1,500? Will not this aggravate the problem, already increasingly difficult for local authorities, of providing housing in new towns? By what right has he given his Department authorisation to make this proposal?

I think that the hon. Member has misread the article in the Glasgow Herald. It did not refer to housing land.

Has my right hon. Friend any evidence that land prices are hindering local authorities in their housing programmes?

:I have no evidence of that because in Scotland when local authorities have to build on expensive land they may be assisted by the expensive site subsidy which we introduced in the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1962.

:If the purchase of this land was not for housing, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the purpose was? Did that purpose justify the addition to the original price?

:The addition is not for houses but for other things such as factories or schools. In this case it is only fair that the development charges, which the development corporation has undertaken, should be taken into account in the setting of land values whatever use there may be.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the total capital expenditure and the total interest charges paid by Scottish local authorities for the provision of municipal houses in 1950–57 and 1962.

I shall, with permission, circulate these figures in the Official Report.

The Secretary of State's answers get briefer and briefer and contain less and less information. Is he aware that because of the Government's stingy and mean policy, because of their increased interest charges and cutting of housing subsidies, Scottish local authorities are undoubtedly getting into a complete morass of debt and that this in itself will curb the building of more houses in future? Will he not do something to ease this financial position for the local authorities and make it easier for them to provide houses?

:I never expected to hear an hon. Member complaining about Answers being short. The fact of the matter is that local authorities are building about 26,000 houses this year compared with 21,000 last—these are figures for the end of March—and, as I explained in the debate last week, the view of the Government is that if subsidies are to be given they should be given openly as subsidies and not by means of an unduly low interest rate.

:Will my right hon. Friend say whether, judged by the number of houses being started, interest rates are in fact hindering house building?

There is certainly no evidence of that from the figures which I have just given.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the centre in Glasgow for the treatment of and research into rheumatological diseases will be opened.

Premises at Baird Street are now being re-constructed for this purpose and the work is expected to be completed in the latter part of 1964.

Is the Secretary of State aware that his Answer makes it very clear that there has again been a postponement of the date of the opening of this centre? Is he also aware that since 1957 serious representations have been made by consultants and others about the necessity of such a Scottish centre to provide treatment and research for more than half Scotland's population? Can he tell us what is the hold-up with this centre and whether anything can be done to open it much more quickly?

I am informed that there has been no hold-up in the sense of delay with the premises at Baird Street. The difficulty lies in the fact that it is a rather old building and that there are different floor levels at the front and back of the building, which has been causing a good deal of difficulty in re-designing it for its new purposes.

:Surely all these difficulties were known when the Secretary of State gave the approximate date for the opening of the centre. Is he not also aware that there were other premises, much more suitable, which could have been taken, but which the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, or the regional hospital board, decided should not be taken? Does not his answer show the Government's lack of planning?

The facts may well have been known. It is quite different to know that there are difficulties and to know how long they will take to get over. The planning of this has not been in my Department but in the regional hospital board.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what research is being undertaken in Scotland into the probable relation between pneumoconiosis and carcinoma of the lung.

Both diseases are the subject of research programmes supported by public funds, but no such programme in Scotland is specifically directed to the relationship between them.

Can the Secretary of State give us any idea if funds in Scotland are to be devoted to this? Is he not aware that there are two main reasons why this should bed one? The first is that a number of miners have been found to be suffering from both diseases. The second is that on the death of the miner the widow is often denied industrial death benefit because death is said to be due to carcinoma and not to pneumoconiosis? Will he not do something to try to speed up research in Scotland into these two diseases?

:If a case is made to me or to the Medical Research Council or the Scottish Hospital Endowments Research Trust, I am sure that it will be considered very carefully both on its merits and on the desirability of this form of research.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has studied the resolution passed by the Annual General Meeting of the Educational Institute of Scotland on 7th June, 1963, and then sent to him, asking for the immediate expansion of Scottish universities so that more places may be available for Scottish students; and what reply he has sent.

The letter containing this resolution has been acknowledged, and I have brought it to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who is responsible for grants to universities.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is not doing enough? The resolution mentioned in my Question is only part of a wide and strong demand for university expansion in Scotland, not only in the interests of trade, industry and commerce, but in the interests of the learned professions in Scotland who serve the public so well. Will the right hon. Gentleman redouble his efforts to help more university expansion more quickly?

:As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, questions about the availability of university places should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, who recently received a deputation from the National Committee for a new university in Scotland.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware of the feelings of many parents in this connection regarding university places?

:Yes, Sir. I am indeed aware that many parents are worried about the problem, but I think it is fair to say that the funds which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has made available have enabled the Scottish universities and the Royal College of Science and Technology to plan an expansion of over 30 per cent. in the current quinquennium, from about 18,300 in 1961–62 to over 24,000 in 1966–67.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the guidance he has given to local authorities, including Saltcoats, about the level of rents to be charged for their houses.

I have suggested that gross annual values afford the best guide currently available to authorities in fixing rents. In Saltcoats rents equivalent to gross annual value would be on the average 17s. per week.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that at the recent burgh elections in Saltcoats a pamphlet was distributed which said:

"The Secretary of State wants a rent of £2 15s. per week for your house. Save yourself. Vote Labour."?

:This has been brought to my notice. Very curious things obviously happen at burgh elections, but, as I have said, the only figure I have mentioned as a guide is gross annual value, and this represents 17s. a week. The figure quoted is therefore nonsense and wholly out of line with the facts.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Saltcoats is one of the best administered burghs in the whole of Scotland, that the electorate have repeatedly passed votes of confidence in the leaders of that administration, and that the people of Saltcoats are solidly behind them in their progressive housing policy?

I am aware that the rent level in Saltcoats at 8s. 8d. is about the lowest in Scotland. This may have something to do with the election pamphlet to which my hon. Friend referred.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress is being made with the clearance of the early potato crop; and whether he will make a statement.

:Lifting of the crop in the traditional early potato growing areas of the south-west of Scotland (mainly Ayrshire and Wigtownshire) began on the 13th June. It is estimated that so far about a quarter has been cleared. I understand that lifting is continuing at a slow rate as weather conditions permit and according to demand. I realise that the situation is causing concern.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Wigtownshire about one-quarter of the crop is being lifted compared with two years ago and that the price is now considerably below the cost of production? Is not this caused entirely by unnecessary imports? For example, even last week a cargo of 600 tons of early potatoes came to Leith from Cyprus, and many more than that the week before? Will my right hon. Friend look carefully at this question of imports and in particular at why it is necessary to reduce the tariff from £9 to £2 a ton on 1st July every year?

:I shall, of course, keep these points in mind, but it is a fact that we have imported considerably less potatoes this year than either last year or the year before, and I think my hon. Friend also realises that there is a considerable public demand for new potatoes often before our own are ready to be lifted.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to assist the growers of early potatoes in Scotland.

Assistance for home growers of new potatoes is afforded by the tariff which varies according to the season. Imports are tapering off and the main problem now stems from the delayed marketing of the home crop.

What was the cause of the delayed marketing of the home crop? Was it not due to the fact that the Government allowed these big imports of potatoes from the Commonwealth and other countries? There is practically no regu- lation of imports at the vital time when these Scottish potatoes come on the market. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that if there has to be some arrangement with other countries, the imports should be so regulated that the growers of Ayrshire potatoes know exactly what the position is likely to be?

The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that one of the difficulties about the early potato crop is knowing, because of weather conditions, when it is likely to be ready to be lifted. As I have told my hon. Friend the Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis), imports this year have been considerably below those for either last year or the year before.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that growers of early potatoes have to submit to an acreage quota? Surely this implies that they will get a reasonable market for what they produce?

:This seems to be a question for the Potato Marketing Board, which I believe is meeting this afternoon and looking at the whole of this problem.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that whereas the price of potatoes last year was £50 a ton this year it is £20, and that this hits the small grower very hard indeed?

:I fully appreciate this, but I have noticed this type of thing happening off and on for the last 25 years in areas which grow early potatoes.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

:In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

The hon. Gentleman is forestalled in the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will refer to the Scottish Advisory Council on Child Care the question of setting up a Scottish Central Council in Child Care.

I take it that the hon. Member has in mind a council to deal primarily with training. The Advisory Council itself submitted to me last week a report on this and other related matters. I fully appreciate the need for better training arrangements, and I shall accordingly study this report carefully and urgently, and shall arrange for it to be published.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am most grateful for that Answer? Will he bear in mind that the Scottish child care service seems to be greatly overloaded and that many child care officers are migrating to England and Wales because there are higher salaries and better training arrangements there?

I shall certainly bear that in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has now given to the recommendation of the Mackenzie Committee about a major extension to the new power station at present being built at Dundee.

:As recommended by the Committee the North Board has examined this site and has made certain proposals for its development. These are now being considered.

While thanking the Minister for that Answer, can he say whether the statement recently made by the South Board with regard to the new generating station in any way cuts across his consideration of establishing this big extension at Dundee?

Obviously the problem of new stations has to be considered in the light of the demands of Scotland as a whole.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements he has mad; for Scottish fishing interests to be represented at the forthcoming inter national fisheries conference.

I am unable at this stage to say whether representatives of the fishing industries of the various countries concerned will be invited to participate directly in the proposed conference or whether it will be on an exclusively inter-Governmental basis; but I can assure the hon. Member that in any event the organisations representing Scottish fishing interests will be fully consulted about the matters to be discussed at the conference.

Why all this delay? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that as far back as April of this year the Lord Privy Seal, in making reference to the conference, said that this was a matter of great urgency and of outstanding importance to the fishing industry of our country? If three months have elapsed and the Government have not made up their mind about who will represent them, what confidence can the industry have in the negotiations that are about to start?

As the hon. Gentleman realises, when there is a conference involving a large number of nations, it is not for one nation to lay down exactly how the conference will be run.

:Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this conference is taking place at Governmental level? He is in a particularly advantageous position to see that one of Scotland's major industries is properly represented. Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that it is?

I have given the hon. Gentleman an assurance that the fishing interests will be fully consulted. I told him that a decision had not been taken as to whether or not it would be exclusively on an inter-Governmental basis.

:If a Member of an English fishing port might intervene, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in making arrangements to consult all the interests concerned, he will consult the wholesale merchants and even the house wife who is interested in prices, so that we can all have a go in this matter?

I am sure that I and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will wish to consult all the interests concerned, and not least the hon. Lady.