asked the Minister of Education (1) what additional resources are now available to enable him to restore to the 1964–65 school building programme some or all of the projects recommended by the local education authorities but rejected by him; if he will circulate in HANSARD a list of the projects to be restored to this programme; and how many of those are in the County of Essex;

I shall shortly be letting local education authorities know of the additional projects which I can now include, in view of the increase of £5 million in the level of authorised starts for 1964–65.

:Since the right hon. Gentleman made his announcement about the extra resources that may be available in a written reply on a Friday, would he be good enough to say that he will try to make some announcement to the House orally before the Summer Recess, as this is the last occasion on which he will be reached at Question Time?

:I apologise if the House thinks I was in any way discourteous. There was a convenient occasion for me to make a public announcement and I thought the House should have the information at the same time. There are difficulties about an oral statement as I may not be reached in Questions again, but I will certainly do my best to give the House full information.

Can the right hon. Member say what is the nature of the statement that he is going to make? Will it be a supplementary list of entirely new projects previously not approved amounting to £5 million which we shall add to the previous list of £42 million?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has asked that question. I have already added to the £42½ million a number of supplementary projects to which I referred last Friday. The total value of the 1964–65 programmes will be £50 million, which is a little bigger than last year despite the fact that investment in higher education will be considerably up as well. I am considering in what convenient form I can give the House details of the projects that will be included and how I could summarisesome of the main features of the school building programmes for the five years covered by the 1958 White Paper.

Mr. Hamilton.

:On a point of order. With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I had two Questions down which were taken together. May I not have a second supplementary question?

That is a strange doctrine. I do not think it adds to opportunities. I am sorry.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to increase and improve the teaching on the fundamentals of the British constitution.

:Teaching on the principles of the British constitution is a normal part of the secondary school curriculum, and Her Majesty's inspectors of schools keep the need for such teaching in mind in the advice they offer to the schools.

:Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise the very great importance of this subject? Can he give an assurance to teachers of it that, despite recent very serious lapses by the Prime Minister, the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility is not yet dead?

I can assure the hon. Member that to the best of my knowledge virtually no teachers exploit these periods for party political purposes, as might otherwise be thought from the hon. Member's not very subtle supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Education if he proposes in 1963–64 to restore the number of supplementary courses for teachers to the level obtaining in 1961–62.

I cannot accept the validity of this comparison without taking into account the introduction of the three-year course. Now that initial training itself takes three years, the supplementary courses are almost entirely for two year trained teachers seconded after a period of service. In 1961–62 some 900 serving teachers attended in this way and just under 700 this year. In 1963–64 these figures should rise to about 1,100, though nearly 1,500 places will be available in 100 separate courses.

:Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that what he is doing about improving training is irrelevant to the reservoir of two-year trained teachers? Surely the system requires more and better trained teachers so that the right hon. Gentleman ought not to relax his efforts to get more teachers through these courses.

:I am not relaxing my efforts. Although the figures for 1962–63 are a little disappointing, they rose substantially, from 700 to 1,100, for 1963–64.

asked the Minister of Education how many courses for teachers of handicapped children are being arranged for 1963–64.

Thirteen supplementary and eight special advanced one-year courses, as well as two one-term courses.

:Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this only touches the fringe of the problem? Surely he knows that there are about 10,000 handicapped children awaiting training and that one of the reasons is the insufficient number of trained teachers. Can he not considerably step up the number of these courses?

The number will be bigger in 1963–64 than it was in 1962–63. One of the difficulties is that places in the courses are not filled. I can send the hon. Member details. I am anxious to increase the supply of specially trained teachers for handicapped children and I can tell the House that authorities and managing bodies responsible for special schools were specially asked in January of this year to release as many teachers as possible for these courses in 1963–64 and in subsequent years.

:But if places are not filled, surely this is a bad breakdown of the administration. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman remedy that?

It was exactly for that reason that I sent out this special request in January of this year.

asked the Minister of Education following his decision to set aside the award of the Burnham Committee regarding teachers' salaries, what consultations have taken place with the teachers' organisations and with education committees regarding future negotiating machinery for the profession; and if, with a view to restoring the confidence of teachers, he will re-establish a system of collective bargaining.

I have already had discussions with representatives of six of the bodies concerned, and have arranged to see most of the remainder before the end of this month. With regard to the second part of the Question, I would remind the hon. Member that I have not permanently disestablished the existing system of settling teachers' salaries. But many people, including hon. Members on both sides of this House, have expressed the view that present procedures are not altogether satisfactory and should be improved. We are now discussing ways and means of doing this.

:Whatever the Minister may say about his action in the past, is it not a fact that it destroyed the negotiating machinery, which has lasted for 40 years, and also destroyed confidence in the negotiating machinery which apparently was intended to be used as a precedent in other industries? What is he now doing to create confidence in a new machinery? What assurance is he to give that the procedure of varying a decision will not be adopted in future?

I respect the hon. Member's sincerity in this matter, but when we debated this subject for the first time at the end of March, therewere hon. Members on both sides of the House who felt that the existing system was not altogether satisfactory. The answer to the second part of his supplementary question is that some 17 bodies have representation on one or more of the three Burnham Committees. As a start, I am anxious that they should all have a full opportunity to give me their views on what changes may be desirable, and at this stage it would be better if I did not comment further than that.

As the Minister hopes to complete his discussions with representatives of the teachers before the end of July, can he promise to make a statement to the House about those discussions before the Recess?

I hope very nearly to complete the first round of discussions by the end of July, but I shall not then be ready to make a statement because there will be a great deal more thought and time to be given to this matter before any public announcement can usefully be made.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that if agreement with the teachers on this important matter is not reached, he will not impose a new machinery of his own? Will he give an undertaking that it is only an agreed machinery which he himself will accept?

I can certainly give the hon. Member an undertaking that I have gone into these discussions with every hope and confidence that we can reach an agreed machinery, but I think that it is better that we should proceed with our discussions in confidence as partners in the education service until we have some definite progress to report.

asked the Minister of Education (1) whether he will now consider including the building of the Bovington, Wool, Primary School in the 1964–65 school building programme;

I have carefully considered these two projects, but I regret that I shall be unable to add them to the 1964–65 programme.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the roof of the primary school I have mentioned is leaking in about 10 places, that the floor of the entrance hall is very worn and unsafe, that the walls of several classrooms are badly cracked, that much of the building is damp and that the health of both teachers and pupils is likely to be badly affected, and that a devoted staff has been working—[HON. MEMBERS:"Speech."]—in temporary buildings, most of which date back to the 1914–18 war? In view of this, will the right hon. Gentleman visit the school to assure himself that it is essential that it is included in the 1964–65 programme?

Putting it much more shortly than the hon. Member did, I am fully aware of the present unsatisfactory conditions of this school of which I have received a report. I have made it plain to the House that I hope that we can make a start on primary replacements from 1965–66 onwards. I have made it plain on many occasions that between 1960 and 1965 we have concentrated on the secondary school replacement and improvement part of the programme. The school site will be required by the War Department, but will not be needed for these purposes before the end of 1967. I am leading to the conclusion that, although I cannot enter any commitment, it would be worth the authority putting this forward in the 1965–66 programme.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the conditions in this school related to any private dwelling, there would be a prosecution within a matter of months? In these circumstances, why should the Minister expect children to suffer unsanitary conditions worse than the worst landlord would be allowed?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have only recently agreed to the replacement of one school which quite clearly was becoming an urgent danger to health and was in danger of falling down. [Interruption.] There have to be priorities in these matters. Between 1960 and 1965, as we made clear in the 1958 White Paper, which was debated at the time, the improvement section of the school building programme concentrated on the secondary schools in order to advance the policy of secondary education for all.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman realise that we cannot accept as a criterion that a school is likely to be falling down before it is replaced? Will he look sensibly at the primary school buildings, the N.U.T. survey of them and the survey which he is preparing and which he has promised to publish, and then do something?

:The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that I am under contract to Parliament to present the results of our survey when it is available, and I have every intention of doing so.

:In view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory conditions in which children of primary school age are being educated at Osbaldwick, and that his predecessor agreed in 1956 that a new replacement school should be built, but that so far only two classrooms have been provided; and whether he will now authorise the inclusion of the remainder of the school in the 1964–65 building programme.

:I have reconsidered this matter carefully since my right hon. Friend raised it with me. I recognise that the Osbaldwick school premises leave much to be desired, but I have reached the conclusion that the completion of the new school is not sufficiently urgent in comparison with other projects to justify my adding it to the 1964–65 programme.

:Can my right hon. Friend give this matter further reconsideration, bearing in mind that since the decision was made seven years ago to build a new school, the population of Osbaldwick has doubled and that next school year there will be 305children of primary school age of whom only 120 will be able to be accommodated in satisfactory accommodation in the North Riding? Is he aware that at the moment the school is split over four quite different sites and that many of the buildings in temporary use are unsuitable for modern teaching?

:I have never at any time shown the least doubt about the amount of work in replacing school buildings which still has to be done. I have considered my right hon. Friend's points about this school carefully, but the authority concerned placed it sixth in order of priority among six primary school projects which it proposed. Three have been approved. In fact, 75 per cent. of the authority's total programme for next year was approved.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Education how many Swindon and Wiltshire children, respectively, who are in need of special education, are waiting for places at special schools; when these places will be provided for them; and what action he will take to help them meanwhile.

In January 1963, 31 children, in Swindon and 206 in the rest of Wiltshire were awaiting places in special schools, of whom 21 and 170 respectively were educationally sub-normal. A new school for 120 educationally sub-normal children should be finished this year and many children are receiving special help meanwhile in the ordinary schools.

:But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the numbers to which he has just referred mean that these children will never get the education they need? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the dreadful situation in which these children and their parents are placed by the fact that educational facilities are not available for them? Will he do something to accelerate the provision of proper facilities for these educationally subnormal children?

I am not sure that the House realises how much has been done during the last 10 years. In 1953 there were just under 20,000 places for subnormal children in England and Wales. Already the figure is 36,000. It is going up by 2,000 new places a year, and projects already included in the building programme will increase the number of places to 49,000 within the next few years. In answer to the hon. Gentleman, the word"never" is far too strong to use in this context.

Is it not a fact that 10,000 children still remain unplaced in special schools, and that this number has been there since 1949?

The number has been reduced considerably during recent years, but I recognise that more places are needed. This is largely because, as the years go by, many more children in need of special education are found by authorities. This is why we have a continuing programme of more places each year.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Education if he will make further funds available for the experiment of the teaching of reading by the Initial Teaching Alphabet System, in view of the success of the experiments in Lancashire and other areas.

Last year I made a grant of £4,300 to the London University Institute of Education for this research, and I have recently agreed to make a similar grant in the current year to enable it to continue. Further assistance must depend on a full assessment of the results so far.

:Is the Minister aware that, while this grant may appear generous, in fact it amounts to about £80 per local education authority? Will he reconsider this and advance more money for this very important and successful experiment?

I think that one must look carefully at the results before going any further. I have arranged with my Department's curriculum study group and with members of the Inspectorate specialising in primary education to keep a close watch on these exciting and important experiments, and there is no shortage of interest in this at the Ministry.

Has the Minister himself studied the results which reveal the possibility of a strong break-through in the teaching of reading comparable to the revolution that has taken place in the teaching of mathematics? Will he give careful study to this and consider whether he can take the whole project from the university under his wing?

I should not like to commit myself on that, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am in close touch with my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Sir J. Pitman) and Dr. Lionel Elvin, and I agree that the matter is important. It is a subject on which there is the possibility of a really dramatic break through.

On the general question of educational research and not necessarily on one limited to this initial teaching alphabet, will the Minister consider getting what one might call private enterprise munificence for educational research and in particular consider the organisation of regional research councils on the lines of the Cleveland, Ohio, Research Council on which a number of local authorities, in association with a number of the richer employers and general employers of the district, are organising and conducting very effective educational research into how local education may be improved and enabled better to serve their locality?

:I assure my hon. Friend that I shall bear that point in mind.

asked the Minister of Education if he has now studied the opinion of the National Advisory Council on the use of auxiliaries in primary schools; and what conclusions he has reached.

:The Council has still to complete its consideration of this topic, and has not yet offered me its advice.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recall that his predecessor announced this idea with an enormous flourish of trumpets in May of last year? In June last year I was told by the right hon. Gentleman himself that the Advisory Council was holding a special meeting to consider this matter. In view of this, is it not extraordinary that the Minister apparently has still received no report and no advice?

:The situation is that the working party has for some time been carrying out a preliminary investigation of this matter. It then decided to deal first with measures to increase the output of qualified teachers on which it reported last October. The hon. Lady will recall that we accepted its report. I suggested last week in my speech to the A.E.C. Conference that the prospect of a persistent shortage of teachers should dispose us to re-examine our traditional assumtions and practices and I do not intend to neglect this highly important aspect of the problem of over-sized classes.

Are we to take it that the Minister intends actively to consider the proposals and that he will let us have reasonable suggestions within a reasonably short time?

I should not like to commit myself as to the time, but I do not propose to let the subject drop. We need to be receptive to any new ideas for the organisation of schools and the deployment of staff which would lead to more effective use of the teachers themselves. This is becoming all the more urgent because of the prospective rise in school population.

asked the Minister of Education what action has been taken on the Bourdillon Report on Standards in the Public Library Service.

I have sent copies of this Report to all public library authorities, the local authority associations and other bodies concerned with libraries. Most of the conclusions and recommendations in it are the direct concern of the authorities themselves, and as I said in my foreword, the Report provides a guide by which they can measure the efficiency of their libraries. It will also help me to discharge my responsibilities under the new legislation which, as I told the House on 10th May, I intend to introduce as soon as time can be found for it.

Will the Minister take a really active step forwardin this? Is he not aware that without legislation it is impossible for him to ensure that librarians in this country have a fair deal or have the national gradings for salary scales which were strongly recommended in the last two Committee reports? May we have an assurance that this legislation will be introduced in the next Session?

I cannot give an assurance about that. The hon. Lady knows the difficulties in this House about time for Measures of considerable length. I think that the publication of the Report has led many authorities to review the quality of their services, but I accept that I should not be backward in pressing for time for this important Measure.

asked the Minister of Education if he will now give the names of the members of the Plowden Committee on Primary Education.

When the present Central Advisory Council under Mr. Newsom's chairmanship has completed its valuable work, I propose to reconstitute the Council to consider primary education in all its aspects. With permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of those who have accepted my invitation to be members of the new Council.

Is the Minister aware that we were all glad of his assurance last week that this new committee would contain people with practical knowledge of primary education, and that some of us would wish to congratulate him on his initiative in setting up a committee to investigate primary education, a subject which has been neglected for many years, and on the quality of which the whole superstructure of education depends?

:I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. I agree with the purpose of them. Of the 23 members of the new Council, four will be practising school teachers, and the majority will have had direct experience of the educational system either as teachers, or administrators, inspectors or as university and teacher training teachers.

Will the survey which the right hon. Gentleman's committee is to make into primary education include an investigation into the type of building that is required and the provision of adequate buildings, because it is obvious that this is a section of education which is sadly neglected at the moment, and unless it is properly provided for, it is no good providing it at the top of the scale.

The influence of the fabric will be within the Council's terms of reference. I think that it will draw conclusions from the large number of new primary schools built since the war as well. It is worth remembering that one quarter of all primary school children are in post-war buildings and that the proportion is rising all the time.

But apart from the new schools, will the members of the new Council have the opportunity of seeing some of the disgraceful old schools, such as the one at Barking about which the right hon. Gentleman gave me a personal assurance, which I hope will be fulfilled?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that all schools will be within the purview of this Council.

asked the Minister of Education if he will seek to amend Section 2 of the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1937, in order to make it easier for teachers to undertake periods of voluntary service overseas without loss of pension.

I shall be ready to consider possible amendments when the opportunity occurs for legislation. But I do not think that the present arrangements, which are designed to safeguard pension rights by requiring contributions based on the last salary received in this country, are unreasonable.

That is a rather negative answer. Does not the Minister agree that it is highly desirable that British teachers and other qualified people should be given every opportunity for voluntary service overseas? Will he look at the whole question again, and see what he cando to provide an early opportunity for legislation?

:I cannot give a date in respect of this matter now, but in principle Ithink that it is not unreasonable, if teachers working overseas are ultimately to receive the same pension as they would have received had they remained in this country, that either they or their employers should pay the standard rate of contribution during their service overseas. The hon. Member and I have had correspondence on a particular case. I feel that our present arrangements are not unreasonable.

asked the Minister of Education whether he has now reconsidered the appeal of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation for a contribution from Her Majesty's Government to the revised plan for saving the temples of Abu Simbel; and what is the cost involved.

I cannot add at present to what I said last Thursday in reply to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), but I will inform the House of the Government's decision as soon as I can.

:If we may assume from that reply that the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to this matter, may I ask him also to take an opportunity of seeing that the appropriate authorities consider the suggestion, put forward in The Times today by the Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities, that more thought should be given to the appropriate location and resiting of these temples?

:My difficulty is that the Executive Board of U.N.E.S.C.O. has taken a decision in this matter. I hope that it will bear in mind the point about resiting.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the decision to carry on with this present scheme, which I believe is to cost about £12 million or £14 million, and which means cutting up the temples and hauling the pieces to the top of a cliff, is now completely final, or whether it may be possible to give further consideration to the third scheme, which would cost a little over £2 million and which seems to have many attractive features?

:U.N.E.S.C.O. has taken a firm decision in favour of the Swedish scheme.

asked the Minister of Education what advice he gives to local education authorities regarding the maintenance of standards in grammar schools when they are contemplating changes in their selection procedure.

Authorities' selection methods do not require my approval, but the advice of Her Majesty's inspectors is always available to them on this topic. Recent changes in the direction of less formal methods of selection have been found beneficial to the primary schools, and I have no reason to suppose that they have in any way affected grammar school standards.

I accept entirely what my right hon. Friend says, but will he make sure that education authorities are aware of the importance we attach to grammar schools and to the selection of children appropriate for what they have to offer?

:Yes, but with respect to my hon. Friend, when he talks about"children appropriate for grammar schools" I am sure that he does not mean only what might be called the"high flyers". The responsibility of the grammar schools is as great to those children with not quite such a high level of attainment, who none the less can gain very much from working in a grammar school atmosphere.

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the total sum expended on building work for the school meals service during the past ten years, together with a separate figure for kitchen and dining room equipment.

:Separate figures are not available for the whole period. Total capital expenditure on the school meals service, including transport, was about £45 million.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that this is a very large sum of money indeed? Will he assure the House that no steps that he takes will result in any reduction in the amount or degree to which the service is now used?

If I had a statement to make on that subject I am not sure that it would be in order on this Question.

asked the Minister of Education if he will authorise the cost of swimming baths in the new buildings for the Mexborough Grammar School and Junior College.

asked the Minister of Education if, to enable the local education authority to put into operation its plans to build swimming baths at the Mexborough Grammar School and Junior College, he will reconsider his decision not to increase the cost limits.

:No, Sir. A swimming bath could be provided at this school only by exceeding the cost limit for the project or by drastic replanning, which would delay its erection. I would not feel justified in treating this case exceptionally in view of the more pressing claims on the school building programme.

I thank the Minister for that reply, which I expected. Is he aware that I regard this as sheer stupidity on his part and on the part of his Department? Is he aware that it is costing four authorities, for the hire of baths and travel facilities for these children, over £2,560 per annum in that division alone? Is not that false economy?

:No; if it is any comfort to the hon. Member, I can tell him that Ministry officials have only recently been discussing with representatives of the West Riding ways in which swimming baths can be provided within the framework of present arrangements for capital investment. Work on this school is due to begin next Monday, 15th July. It would be a mistake to hold it up now.

But does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that physical education is not merely a matter of gymnasiums; swimming is also very important for physical education and for the saving of lives? Has he taken into account the fact that there will be a saving of £400 per year for this divisional educational committee if he has baths installed, because of the costs outlined by my hon. Friend? Does not he think that it is time that every secondary school in this country had swimming facilities for its children, to enable them to save not only their own livesbut the lives of other people?

I am not saying that swimming is unimportant. As I said, my Ministry officials have been discussing this matter with the West Riding local education authority. It was raised with me by the authority when I visited it earlier this year. But we would not be justified in altering our rules about the cost limit, or justified in holding up work on this school.

With regard to the provision of swimming pools generally, will my right hon. Friend look into the cost of portable swimming pools, which are ridiculously expensive for what they provide? Will he see if his Ministry can cheapen them, so that more people will have a chance of using them?

:My hon. Friend is now raising a wider issue. If he will correspond with me about the cost of swimming pools I shall be glad to hear what he has to say.

:In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Education what negotiating machinery he has established for salary scales of teachers in colleges of advanced technology.

No permanent negotiating machinery has yet been set up. A decision on the most appropriate procedure for future salary negotiations will have to take into account both the findings of the National Incomes Commission on the pay of C.A.T. teachers and the recommendations of Lord Robbins' Committee on the future status of these colleges. I am, however, always ready to consult the teachers' associations and the governing bodies and principals of the colleges on any salary matters which arise in the interim.

In view of the present difficulties, will not the Minister recognise that even if it were provisional it would be far better to establish recognised procedures for such negotiations?

With respect to the hon. Member, I think that it would be very difficult to do this here and now. It will obviously make a big difference, as regards the form of salary negotiations, whether or not the National Incomes Commission recommend that the salary structure for C.A.T.s should be identical with that of the universities. To reach conclusions in advance of the Commission's recommendations would be unwise.

:He may be facing difficulties, but surely the right hon. Gentleman recognises that when he has just made an award affecting colleges of advanced technology it would be far better if such negotiations had recognised machinery within which they could be conducted? Notwithstanding that it would be an interim decision, it would be far better to try to reach agreement with representative bodies to provide for recognised and accepted methods of negotiation.

:My own feeling is that an interim award and interim payment is one thing, but an interim form of negotiation would be another. I do not think that it would be wise now.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will make a further statement on the position of students taking pre-diploma courses leading to the new Diploma in Art and Design.

asked the Minister of Education what special action he proposes to take to accommodate students who have already spent two years on a pre-diploma course leading to a Diploma in Art and Design.

Students who have successfully completed a pre-diploma course but have been unable to find places this September in courses leading to the Diploma in Art and Design will be able to proceed to shortened courses leading to the existing Intermediate Certificate and National Diploma in Design. I have now agreed that this special arrangement should no longer be confined to students having the necessary educational qualifications for entry to a Diploma in Art and Design course. I have explained in a letter to the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) why I cannot accept her suggestion that students who have successfully completed a pre-diploma course following one year of the Intermediate course should be exempted from the Intermediate examination.

I appreciate the step that the Minister is taking, but will he look at the three questions which arise? First, will he look again at the question of the Intermediate? Secondly, will he consider whether he could clarify the position about students' grants, to make it quite clear that the assurance that he has given to the House will be implemented by the local authorities, within their discretion? Finally, will he see that a survey is made of the general position of art education, in view of the acceptance of the Summerson recommendations? There is a case, notwithstanding the acceptance of these recommendations, for making interim provisional arrangements during the next few years.

:I am glad that we have narrowed the gap during the last week. I will certainly consider the second and third points which the hon. Member has made. As for the first point, about the Intermediate course, there is a real difficulty here. As I explained to the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) in my letter, an Intermediate Certificate awarded without an examination would not only bewithout precedent; I think that it would be continually questioned in the future, and would lead to difficulties in other fields. That is why I was unable to agree to that, but I am glad that we have been able to reach some measure of agreement during the past week.

:We appreciate the difficulties of the Intermediate Certificate. But as it applies to students of only one year, surely the Ministry, in these rather unusual circumstances, could waive the point and make it possible for these students—for one year's entry only—to be recognised?

I mention these words with some trepidation, in view of recent controversy; but I think that this brings into play the whole question of the requirements for salary purposes of the Burnham Committee. Possibly these are deeper waters than the hon. Lady supposes.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent Cornwall will benefit from the additional £5 million to be allocated to the school building programme for 1964–65.

:I am visiting Cornwall tomorrow, and shall have the opportunity of seeing certain of the schools which have been proposed for inclusion in the 1964–65 programme. I hope to let the local education authority know very shortly after my return whether I can accept any of these proposals.

:May I ask the Minister to take advantage of his visit to Cornwall tomorrow to discuss the position of the Falmouth Technical College, where the buildings are hopelessly inadequate and detrimental to the interests of the important town and port of Falmouth? May I ask that he should do that and try to get some new buildings as soon as possible?

I shall be seeing at least two of the schools most urgently in need. It would be wrong for me to make an announcement before visiting the authority, but I shall let the authority know if I have any views as soon as possible after my return.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we are grateful that he is going to Cornwall at all and for the fact that he is aware of the position at Callington and that this matter will be taken into consideration?

The school at Callington is not the only school in question. There are one or two other schools which I shall also be visiting, but I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Education what action he is taking to secure better staff-student ratios in the Cornwall Technical College and the Falmouth Technical College.

:The appointment of staff to technical colleges is a matter for local education authorities, but Her Majesty's inspectors are of course ready to advise on appropriate student-staff ratios in different circumstances.

May I ask the Minister to take into account that it would appear from reports I am getting that the staff-student ratios are inflicting great hardship on the staffs of both colleges, and that this is detrimental to the students and to the colleges? Will the right hon. Gentleman take account of that and see whether some improvement can be secured?

I know that concern has been expressed on this matter. I am visiting the authority tomorrow and I may have a chance to raise it—in the words of the author of Vice Versa—"in the course of casual conversation".

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, in view of the difficulties and delay in obtaining individual compulsory purchase orders where landlords fail to seek and apply improvement grants to install baths, hot water and inside water closets, he will permit and encourage the use of area compulsory purchase orders.

No, Sir. Indiscriminate compulsory purchase is not justifiable. For the Government's proposals to accelerate the rate of improvement I would refer the hon. Member to the recent White Paper on Housing.

:Is the Minister aware that where a landlord, after agreeing to install a bath, changes his mind, an individual compulsory purchase order has to be obtained, and that this may take three years, as the Leeds Council discovered in respect of its area schemes? Will the Minister consider an alternative to permit a council to seek a single compulsory purchase order for the whole area?

I have had no complaint from Leeds on those lines.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will introduce legislation to give security of tenure to tenants of all rented houses, and to abolish the tied cottage, in the next Session of Parliament.

No, Sir.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the large number of evictions, especially those involving large families, which are taking place at the present time, and consider making available sufficient money to allow local authorities to rehouse families which have been evicted because of the tied cottages system?

:We are reviewing the housing subsidy position at the moment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware of the extraordinary burdens faced by some older industrial towns and cities in rebuilding and redevelopment; if he will state the estimated capital expenditure for the next five or 10 years for Salford, Oldham, Blackburn or any similar authorities about which he has figures; and whether he will consider special Government assistance to them.

:While I am aware of the house-building and central redevelopment proposals of these towns they do not submit to me their anticipated capital expenditure over a specific period. But the cost of large-scale redevelopment is certainly heavy and it is for this reason that I encourage local authorities to undertake as much of it as possible in partnership with private enterprise. Rate deficiency grant and housing subsidies already exist to help those authorities whose commitments are large in relation to their resources, and assistance with redevelopment is also provided throught the general grant.

Does the Minister agree that this terrible legacy from the Industrial Revolution is afflicting mainly about 50 towns and that this burden is too heavy for them to bear alone? Is it not a national problem that requires financial aid from the Government?

It is because of the burden on these towns that we have undertaken a comprehensive review of the housing subsidy position.