asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the percentage of non-graduate and non-certificated teachers in the employment of the Dunbartonshire education authority.

Non-graduate uncertificated teachers represented 5·6 per cent. of the total teaching staff in Dunbartonshire schools at October 1962.

Will the noble Lady take steps to find out the distribution of teachers in the county? Is she aware that at Dalmuir we have the extraordinary phenomenon of only one child out of a class of 48 qualifying at A-level? Is not this a disastrous result? I should like an inquiry made into the reason for such a bad result at this school.

We shall certainly take note of that school. The staffing is the responsibility of the education authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what school building programmes, set down as essential priorities by the Dunbartonshire Education Committee, are being postponed because of limited financial resources.

My right hon. Friend has been unable to allow the authority to invite tenders for two primary schools—Lenzie and Westergreens, Kirkintilloch—which are otherwise ready to go ahead.

Is the noble Lady aware that Westergreens Primary School is not a school but a parish hall? Is she aware that it is completely out of date and that the building was condemned in 1958? Is it not a shocking thing that the children of overspill families are being educated in a school where there is one water closet to a hundred children; no staff room; no desks or proper forms, and where the authority finds it difficult to provide staff in a building which is merely a parish hall?

Work was authorised to start on Westergreens Primary School, but the authority asked that Castlehill Primary School be substituted.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when work will start on the new maternity unit at the Vale of Leven Hospital, Alexandria.

Building is planned to start in spring 1965.

Will the Under-Secretary of State ensure that this is the starting date and that the work proceeds rapidly? Is he aware that the lease of the Overtoun Maternity Hospital will expire by 1967 and that provision will have to be made?

We shall do our best to expedite the work. It is hoped that the hospital will come into commission in 1967.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has approved the scheme for the piping of the Monkland Canal at Coatbridge; if he will state the amount of the grant he will authorise; and if he will announce a starting date for the scheme.

Grant at the special rate of 90 per cent. of the approved cost has been accepted by the town council and, subject to consideration of technical details, work can start as soon as tenders are approved.

Does the Under-secretary realise that this information will be welcomed? Will he bear in mind that the campaign to get rid of this obnoxious eyesore from the town of Coatbridge has been going on since 1938? Will he make sure that there are no delays at Departmental level?

Certainly. I hope that the scheme will now get ahead as soon as ever possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the general dissatisfaction felt at the operation of the not proven verdict in Scottish courts; if he will introduce legislation to dispense with this practice; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. Although views have been expressed from time to time both for and against the not proven verdict; such a verdict has been a feature of the Scottish system of justice for many years, andmy right hon. Friend is not persuaded that amending legislation is called for.

Would not the noble Lady agree that if the guilt of a person has not been established beyond all reasonable doubt it is cowardly to bring in a verdict of "not proven" instead of "not guilty"? Does she realise that an average of 50 persons a year are acquitted in Scotland's criminal courts on charges found "not proven", and therefore they walk for the remainder of their lives under a shadow of suspicion? Will not thenoble Lady have another look at this matter and attempt to get rid of this lazy justice?

The three verdicts "guilty", "not guilty" and "not proven" have brought about no practical difficulties for about 200 years. There is a case to be argued for a jury to be able to say that the prosecution has not made out its case and my right hon. Friend and the Lord Advocate have received no representations to alter this.

They are being made now.

Does it necessarily follow that we must have representations before we eliminate a practice in the Scottish courts which stigmatises people who, although they remain free, are living under a cloud of suspicion? Will not the noble Lady ask her right hon. Friend and the legal interests concerned to look at the matter again?

My right hon. Friend, the Lord Advocate, and the Secretary of State will always listen to representations made in this House. But the fact remains that there is no substantial demand for this change from the legal profession.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many people in Scotland spoke during each of the last 10 years the Gaelic language; how many spoke or speak only Gaelic; and how many spoke or speak both Gaelic and English.

At the 1951 census there were 95,447 Gaelic speakers of whom 2,178 spoke Gaelic only and 93,269 both Gaelic and English; in 1961 the figures were 76,587, 1,079 and 75,508. There are no figures for other years.

Does the hon. Lady realise that it is a most regrettable mark of cultural intransigence and intolerance that the Government give so little attention and practical encouragement to this ancient and distinguished language? This is a wrong policy. Will she do her best to alter this policy so that this ancient and distinguished language may receive the attention it deserves?

It has been the duty of education authorities since 1918 to see that instruction in Gaelic is given in those areas which are primarily Gaelic-speaking.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland at what age children in the new town of East Kilbride are being admitted to primary schools.

On or shortly before reaching the statutory age for admission to school.

Is it not the case that on occasions in the recent past children have not been admitted until they are 5½ because of the tremendous shortage of school buildings in East Kilbride and Lanarkshire? Is not one of the reasons for the acute difficulty in building new schools the tremendous burden of the new town upon the county council, particularly as most of these children come from Glasgow? Will the hon. Lady ask the Secretary of State to make a serious examination of the case for specially ear-marked grants for school buildings and other facilities in the new towns?

I am advised that the reasons for children not being admitted until after they are5 are not those given by the hon. Lady. This authority, like many others, has two entrance dates, February and September. If the child has not reached the age of 5 just before the entry date it will have to wait for the second admission date. As to the second part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question, I do not think it meets the point.

Is the noble Lady denying that there are acute difficulties in the school building programme in East Kilbride and Lanarkshire? Will she take account of the request I have made? Is there not a strong case for consideration of this matter?

Certainly there are difficulties in the building programme, but that is not the reason why children are not admitted under 5.

Is the noble Lady assuming that there is no shortage of accommodation in relation to children entering school?

I should certainly not say there is no shortage of accommodation, but the reason why they are not admitted is that they have not reached their fifth birthday by the entrance date.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for the extension of secondary school provision in Scotland for maladjusted children.

The provision of educational facilities for maladjusted children is primarily a matter for education authorities. No plans for the extension of secondary school provision are before my right hon. Friend at present.

Will the noble Lady take some initiative on this? Does she not accept that it is the general responsibility of the; Secretary of State to ensure that the prevision for maladjusted children is adequate? Is she aware that the school provision in Scotland in this field is very poor indeed?

I am aware of the problems, and we have established a working party to examine exactly what guidance can be given to local authorities. It should report by the end of the year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the overall period of waiting for treatment at the children's psychiatric unit at the Crichton Royal Mental Hospital, Dumfriesshire.

Of the eight children at present on the waiting list for admission for assessment, seven have been waiting for less than six months and one for 12 months. Children are admitted according to their need and not in simple chronological order. The maximum waiting period at present is about 12 months.

Is that not an extremely disturbing attitude? Does it not cause the Minister concern that children needing this kind of expert medical attention are having to wait for twelve months to get it? Will the Under-Secretary take steps to extend this unit or, even better, consider establishing a similar unit in another part of Scotland?

The hon. Member will know that a unit is being established shortly in Dundee, but the question is one of staff as much as of accommodation.

Would my hon. Friend agree that this hospital is very well thought of in the area it serves? Will he say how many beds there are for psychiatric children and what is the approximate waiting time?

In this unit there are thirty-five beds in the psychiatric wards for children and twenty children are on the waiting list.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied that the provision of roads, houses, and education services is sufficient to facilitate and speed up the growth of the motor car industry at Linwood; and if he will make a statement.

Further progress is desirable in all the fields mentioned by the hon. Member, but meanwhile there is no question of delay to industrial production.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that Answer is not at all satisfactory? If further progress is desired, why do the Government not get on with the job? Is he aware that almost all hon. Members who recently visited this establishment received the impression that difficulties were being created and concern was caused to owners in this highly desirable development? Why do not the Government get on with the job and help to provide the jobs which are so badly needed in Scotland?

The job is being got on with. I think the firms realise the magnitude of the problems faced by the local services and local authorities in this matter. I hope the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) and other hon. Members will appreciate the tremendous volume of work which is here involved.

Surely the hon. Gentleman appreciates that there have been four years of "Tory drive" behind this unsatisfactory result? What excuse has he to offer? What chance is there of getting these developments if this is the way the Government proceed with these necessary services?

Most of these services are being met, but I agree that at present there is a waiting list for a certain number of houses.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now grant permission to Glasgow Corporation to build on the remaining 633 acres at Summerston and the 615 acres at Darnley.

The Secretary of State decided last year, after a full inquiry, that housing could not properly be allowed on more than 162 acres at Darnley and 113 acres at Summerston. Glasgow Corporation has not submitted any fresh proposals, nor do I know of any new considerations that might lead to a different decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated cost to the local authorities concerned for the provision of roads, sewers, water and electricity and the other social services necessary, arising from the location of the pulp mill at Fort William.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer my right hon. Friend gave the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) on 1st May.

That Answer did not reply to the Question I am now asking. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the developments necessary consequent on the location of the pulp mill at Fort William will substantially increase the loan debt and rates of the local authorities affected by this development? Is he aware that if he wants development such as this to be a success in sparsely populated areas there will need to be central funds from the Exchequer before they can get the go-ahead for such development?

A great deal of development is involved. I believe that the local authorities would be well able to bear this development.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the price of land in this part of the country as a result of this development being financed largely by Government has increased about tenfold?

I should not like to pass judgment on that, but I shall be happy to make inquiries.

Although the hon. Gentleman said that there will be Government grants available, as we recognise, in connection with education, main roads and so on, they are made to any local authority. Does he not realise that this is a substantial development over and above the programme hitherto thought about and that it will fall very heavily on these local authorities?

Yes, but this is a development which the local authorities concerned are delighted to have in their area.

Would the Government be prepared to assist local authorities in respect of the burden of the capital cost in the same way as they have helped Wiggins Teape?

There is an accepted way of giving grants to local authorities for developments of this kind. I would not like to go beyond that in this special case.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for the provision of school accommodation for the children of naval personnel to be stationed at Faslane.

Responsibility for ensuring adequate educational facilities rests primarily with the education authority. I know that the replacement of Hermitage Secondary School, Helensburgh, figures largely in their plans to meet the demand for additional school places; and a starting date for this project is at present under discussion

I thank the noble Lady for the last part of her Answer, which is a crumb of comfort. How can she say that responsibility for the education of these children rests with the local authority when the Department has so far refused to allow the local authority to build a school? Will not she have another look at this matter, as the Admiralty has now said that places for 900 children will have to be provided? I have an assurance from the Admiralty that negotiations have been taking place. Will she now say when the Hermitage School can go ahead?

I thank the hon. Member for his first remark. I am glad to hear that he is pleased about this proposal for the Hermitage School. I understand that the local authority thinks that it can put it out for tenders in September, and we hope to be able to give authority then. As regards Dunbartonshire's general problem, the total number of places provided by this school when it is finished will be 1,000 for secondary school provision and 200 for primary in the old Hermitage building. I believe that this will largely meet the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he takes to ensure that the most up-to-date and efficient designs are used for the construction of road bridges in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend's Department gives advice and guidance on bridge design to Scottish highway authorities. His experts play a full part in the work of national and international bodies concerned with the advancement of knowledge in bridge design and in the use of materials.

Can my hon. Friend say whether it is a fact that all those who have helped to design and all those who are engaged in working on the Forth Road Bridge are engaged in what is probably the most dramatic piece of construction in the world at the moment? Is it not a fact that this is the lightest and the strongest bridge in the world? In the light of this, can my hon. Friend say whether he thinks that the prospects for bridge building in Europe by Scottish firms and workmen are excellent?

I am told that the Forth Bridge design is recognised by engineers throughout the world to be the most advanced and economic design. By good design and using the most up-to-date techniques, the tonnage of steel on the Forth Bridge has been greatly reduced compared with similar bridges abroad.

Does this mean that the impending construction of the Erskine bridge is now nearer?

I would not like to come to that conclusion on this Question.

Is it not also the case that this is the only bridge in the world going into a high unemployment area on which tolls are to be paid?

I would not like to predict that on this Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many cases of venereal disease have been reported at Greenock during the last three years.

The numbers of new cases of venereal disease registered at Greenock treatment centre in the last three years are:

Would the hon. Member explain why there has been such a sudden rise in these figures? Does he expect that the position in Greenock will be eased when the new branch clinic at Dunoon is open? [Laughter.] This is not a laughing matter. Are any records being kept, and why cannot the Minister tell me, why does he refuse to tell me, the figures for the Dunoon district?

The hon. Member has not asked for the figures of the Dunoon district in this Question. Information about clinics is, for obvious reasons, confidential.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent he is co-operating by means of liaison committees with those in command of the Polaris base at Holy Loch in action to prevent the spread of venereal disease.

There are satisfactory working arrangements between the medical officers of the United States Navy and the officers of the local health authority on all matters of common interest and no special liaison committee has been found necessary.

Surely the hon. Gentleman will agree that he cannot call the situation satisfactory in view of the disquieting figures which he has just revealed. Is he aware of the statement by the ex-Provost of Dunoon that prostitutes suffering from venereal disease are attracted by the presence of the sailors to the Polaris base and that this is causing anxiety and disquiet in the district? Does he not think that further inquiries are necessary to deal with a social infection which could be very serious?

Local matters can be left to bedealt with adequately through the liaison between the United States authorities and the local health authority. On the general implications of the hon. Member's remarks, even as an ex-soldier I cannot share his dim view of all sailors.

Is the Under-secretary aware that the commander of the ship said that this is the cleanest ship in the American Navy? Does not the hon. Gentleman think that something should be done to protect these sailors and also to protect the women? If they cannot keep away the women, can they not keep away the sailors?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with local authorities' associations regarding his proposals to increase the authorised land prices for new town development from approximately £150 per acre to £1,000 per acre.

Consultations are in progress with the Association of County Councils in Scotland about the revision of the formula under which prices are calculated for transactions between local authorities and new town development corporations. The hon. Member's figures can only be speculative for the effect of the proposal now under consideration would vary from time to time and from transaction to transaction.

Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that the proposals mean a substantial increase in development land prices within the area of new towns of as much as at least 300 or 400 per cent. and probably more? Is he further aware that this will substantially increase the cost to local authorities affected of schools and factories and social amenities necessary to the area? Can he tell the House what profit per acre the Secretary of State will make on the original price which he paid for this land?

I think that the hon. Member misunderstands these proposals to some extent. There is a natural and inevitable increase in land values in rapidly developing areas such as new towns and at present, without special arrangements, local authorities buying land for a development corporation would have to pay the full market value. The consultations concern the extent of the concessions below that value to be made in the local authority's favour.

The hon. Gentleman is not answering the question. What percentage profit per acre is the Secretary of State making on land which he secured when the development corporation was formed?

In my original Answer I said that I could not give that figure because it would vary from transaction to transaction.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the grave concern expressed by the Glasgow police during a recent High Court case at the growth of drug trafficking in the Glasgow area and the need for greater vigilance on the part of the authorities; if he will institute a special inquiry into the position; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has asked the Chief Constable of Glasgow for a report and will get in touch with the hon. Member when he has had an opportunity of considering it.

While I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has asked for a report, would not the noble Lady agree, in view of yesterday's conviction of a Stirling chemist for selling drugs without a prescription, the allegations of trafficking in "goof" pills at Dumfries Borstal Institution, and the common defence in serious assult cases of the accused being under the influence of drugs, that a special inquiry, in addition to the report into drug trafficking in Scotland, is urgently called for?

The case mentioned in the Question involved Indian hemp. As regards other drugs, all medical committees in Scotland were recently advised to be very careful about prescriptions.

Will the hon. Lady ask her right hon. Friend to direct attention, when inquiries into this matter are made, to the establishment not only of the river police but of Customs people employed on the estuary of the Clyde?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with respect to the interruption of the Tay Ferry services; and if he will make a statement.

I understand that, because the bridge works will he in the course used by the ferries when the tide is low, the ferries will shortly have to stop for periods of one to three hours on either side of each low water. Unfortunately neither the Tay Bridge Joint Board, nor the Harbour Authority, which operates the ferry, nor British Railways have been able to suggest a practicable method of transporting vehicles during these periods, although the railways expect to be able to deal with passengers. The Automobile Association, in agreement with the authorities concerned, is to signpost the alternative route via Perth and to put up special signs indicating to drivers how they can find out whether the ferries are running.

Would my hon. Friend consult the Dundee Harbour Trust, in view of the recent announcement by the National Research Development Corporation that it is prepared to assist prospective Hovercraft operators in selecting a vehicle which might be suitable? As this could be used on the Tay for only a short time, will my hon. Friend join the Dundee Harbour Trust and take advantage of the efforts which the National Research Development Corporation is making to popularise this craft, which could then be used elsewhere in Scotland?

I should be delighted to consult the Harbour Trust on this possible project. I think I might warn my hon. Friend that I hardly foresee Hovercraft being able to cope with the vehicle traffic which is here involved, but I should be delighted to discuss it.

Will my hon. Friend consult the National Research Development Corporation urgently, because its publicity has indicated that this is exactly the type of vessel which it is trying to develop to sell elsewhere in the world?

That is good news. I will certainly take it into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what measures he proposes to take to ensure that equitable valuations as between subjects in various valuation areas will result at the quinquennial revaluation in 1966.

Parliament has very recently enacted, in Section 15 of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1963, that evidence as to the valuation of property in other valuation areas can be brought before a Valuation Appeal Committee. I have no reason to think that further steps will be necessary to secure equity between one area and another.

I appreciate that alterations have been made in the legislation as a result of pressure brought to bear on the Secretary of State by the local authorities in Fife and in Dunbartonshire. Is the Minster aware that thousands of pounds have been spent in the last few years by Scottish local authorities in appealing against the valuations determined by the assessors? Therefore, will not the hon. Gentleman refer to the Scottish Advisory Council the question of equitable valuations throughout Scotland to ensure that at the next quinquennial valuation the same anomalies do not arise as happened on the last occasion?

Since evidence about comparable properties in other areas can now be brought forward at the appeal stage, I do not think that any assessor would propose valuations out of line with those elsewhere in Scotland, except where there are real differences in circumstances.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated percentage and number increase in the male population of Scotland, aged between 20 and 40 years, from 1951 to the latest available date.

Between the censuses of 1951 and 1961 the male population of Scotland aged between 20 and 40 years fell by 49,662, or 7·1 per cent., reflecting a decline of 14 per cent. in male births twenty years earlier.

Do not the figures show that there has been a decrease in regard to both the older and the younger sections of the Scottish population? Does not the hon. Gentleman think that this very large decrease in the Scottish male population is explained by the fact that these are the very people who are regularly leaving Scotland?

Emigration is undoubtedly a factor, but the main factor is the decline in the birth rate during the earlier period reflected in the figures I have given.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will appoint an expert committee to consider proposals for amending the existing conveyancing statutes as recommended by the Reid Committee.

My right hon. Friendis considering the Report and will make a statement when he has consulted the professional and other bodies concerned; this will cover the proposed appointment of a committee on conveyancing legislation.

Will the noble Lady convey to her righthon. Friend the desirability of extending this Committee not merely to cover legal experts, who will be thinking of their own business, but also representatives of owner-occupiers who are paying these excessive fees? Some years ago the noble Lady expressed a view about "shiftless council tenants". Does she not recognise that high fees, coupled with high interest rates, are preventing many hundreds of young people from purchasing their own homes?

It is certainly the case that both the owner-occupiers and property owners will be consulted, together with the legal profession and local authorities.

Does the noble Lady know that there is a strong demand amongst the members of the Scottish legal profession for a change? They are fully conversant of the need for this Report to be implemented. Will she bear that fact in mind with a view to having something done urgently?

Yes, Sir. That is exactly why the legal profession is being consulted.

How will the noble Lady consult the owner-occupiers?

Through the various property associations.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how long it will take to clear the slums, on the basis of the policy set out in the recent White Paper on Housing.

As paragraph 15 of the White Paper says, our aim is to deal with nearly all the remaining slums within the next ten years.

Whom does the hon. Gentleman think he is kidding? Is he aware that there are 800,000 houses over 80 years old in Scotland and that at the present rate of clearance it will take another 80 years before these are cleared, by which time we shall have another 800,000 houses over 80 years old? In other words, we will have slums for all our time. Will the Government give us a proper estimate of how soon they expect to get rid of this terrible blight on the Scottish economy, instead of giving us this silly answer of ten years? The answer of five years was given thirty years ago.

I have tried to give the answer to the hon. Gentleman's Question. I certainly could not accept his figures in any way whatsoever. In 1961 the estimate of the local authorities was 90,000 houses. I would not accept that as by any means the top figure, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's figure exaggerates the whole question out of all recognition.

Was the hon. Gentleman's original answer meant to be a correction of the kindly question of my hon. Friend when he spoke about an aim? What is the policy which is in this White Paper, because I read it about ten times and did not find one?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to publish the proposed toll charges for the Forth Road Bridge.

These will be published when they are sent to my right hon. Friend by the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board, as they are required to do at least six months before the probable date of opening of the bridge to traffic.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that recently some industrialists who were looking at sites in Kirkcaldy with a view to expanding their business inquired about what the tolls were likely to be? They indicated that, if toll charges were to be imposed on the bridge, they would have to reconsider their position and perhaps site their factories south of the river and in the west of Scotland? In view of this, will the Minister review the entire position with a view to doing away with all the machinery of installing toll charges on the bridge and thus encourage industry to come to Fife, where it is very much needed?

No, I could not undertake to do that. The question of putting the proposals forward lies with the Joint Board and I hope that it will shortly be able to put is proposals to my right hon. Friend.

Is it not likely that the toll charges will be considerably less than those charged on the ferry crossing at present? Will my hon. Friend inform the Board of the need, particularly for industrial users of the bridge, to have really attractive season ticket charges?

This is a matter for the Joint Board, but I have no doubt that it will take into account what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of Scotland's 18,946,694 acres of land are still under private ownership.

This information could not be obtained without unjustifiable expense of time and labour.

Is the Under-Secretary not aware that a Liberal Government in decline in 1873 was able to undertake this job? Is it because the present Government are in greater decline that they are unable to undertake it today? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a week or two ago his right hon. Friend informed me that the Secretary of State was Scotland's greatest landowner, with 1,900,000 acres? Can we assume from that that something like 16 million acres are still in the hands of private owners? As a result, is he aware that the City of Glasgow is today paying more than £8,000 per acre for the land it requires for housing development? When do the Government propose to stop this type of exploitation?

I cannot agree with those assumptions.

They are not assumptions.

I am advised that to get these figures out would take a great deal of work and that the result would be imprecise. As to the activities of the Liberal Party, the hon. Member can draw what conclusions he wishes.

Is the new statistical department of the Scottish Office not able to subtract? Surely the statisticians can, without too much work, find out how much land is publicly owned and then subtract one figure from the total?

That is exactly the calculation that would have to be made. We would have to ask all public authorities of all kinds in Scotland to send in returns. The necessary figure would have to be subtracted from the total and this would involve public authorities in a great deal of work with, as I said, an imprecise result.

Is the Under-Secretary telling us, as his Answer seemed to imply, that he is not interested in the fact that Glasgow is now paying over £8,000 an acre to private landlords for the ground the city needs to house its people?

That is a different question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further schemes of cross-river communication he proposes for the city of Glasgow, particularly in the Govan division.

A new bridge across the Clyde near Carnoustie Street forms a part of the inner ring road proposed by the corporation in the quinquennial review of the development plan. This was approved in principle by the Secretary of State last year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that just a fortnight ago we opened a new means of cross-river communication in my constituency, at Linthouse, which we all welcomed? Is he also aware that that tunnel was accepted in principle ten years' ago? Is he now telling me, in effect, that before we get the Carnoustie Street bridge we shall have to wait another ten years?

The initiative on this must come from Glasgow and a provisional order will be needed. I understand that Glasgow is at present in consultation with the Clyde Navigation Trust.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated percentage and number increase in the female population of Scotland, aged between 20 and 40 years, from 1951 to the latest available date.

Between the censuses of 1951 and 1961 the female population of Scotland between 20 and 40 years fell by 69,138 or 9·2 per cent. reflecting a decline of 12·5 percent. in female births 20 years earlier.

Will the Under-Secretary draw these figures to the attention of the Secrtary of State and ask him seriously to consider their significance? Will he bear in mind the fact that we dispute that it is owing to a decline in the birth rate but feel that it is primarily due to the constant drain from Scotland of those in precisely this age group—people moving from Scotland to the South and across the water? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that this matter is of the greatest significance to Scotland and its future?

I do not believe that that is a correct assumption. The decline of 9 per cent. in the female population reflects the 12½per cent. decline in births.

This is all rather perplexing. How did the fall in the birth rate 20 years ago affect the age group of those now aged 25 or 35?

Because they grow up.

Will the Under-secretary treat this as a serious matter? Is he aware that he told us that the fall in the population of both males and females between 1951 and 1961 was attributable to a fall in the birth rate 20 years earlier? Is he aware that the fall in the birth rate 20 years ago could not possibly affect the population who are now more than 20 years old, particularly since the Question refers specifically to people over 20? Is it not a fact that the loss of population by migration has concerned more than a quarter of a million people, as told to us by the Registrar General? Is not that more likely to be a factor in the reduction of population in this age group during that period?

It is a factor but, on the Registrar General's information, I am advised that the population decline is the important factor.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if gliding is included in the official training curriculum for air crews.

No, sir.

Is it not a fact that gliding is a valuable form of training? Does not the Ministry encourage the development and formation of gliding clubs in the Royal Air Force and, if it is a valuable form of training, should not the Ministry increase the financial support it at present gives to these clubs?

I think that it would be wrong to put it in the training curriculum, but we are encouraging the formation of these clubs in the Royal Air Force and by the Air Cadet Gliding Organisation, which has two full-time centres and 26 weekend gliding clubs. We are also giving encouragement to the R.A.F. Gliding and Soaring Association, which now has 14 clubs in this country and six clubs overseas.

What form does this encouragement take?

The Air Cadet Gliding Organisation is given considerable financial assistance, which this year I am increasing. The R.A.F. Gliding and Soaring Association is allowed the use of R.A.F. airfields and the services of certain personnel.

asked the Secretary of State for Air (1) what were the reasons for the transfer of his Department's Works Services organisation to the Ministry of Public Building and Works.

The decision to transfer responsibility for Royal Air Force Works Services to the Minister of Public Building and Works was part of a larger decision to concentrate in his Department as much as possible of the Government's direct construction programme so as to make easier his task of coordinating building resources in this country. The decision was announced on 22nd October, 1962, and the transfer took place on 1st April, 1963.

Are there any members of the staff of the former Works Services organisation still left behind, and are there any departments connected with Works Services still remaining with the Air Ministry? If so, what now are their functions?

We have a planning staff in my Department which works closely with the new department. I think that the other question would be appropriate if addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works.

In view of the Defence White Paper which was published yesterday, is this not a rather curious moment to have hived off these activities, while others are now centred more and more in the hands of the Minister of Defence, who will not now have such directcontrol over them?

The question of control has been worked out. On the wider question, I think that it was most important that the whole problem should be considered, and I am certain that the present arrangements will be effective.

Is the right hon. Gentleman sure that this new arrangement relates only to Works Services in this country? My impression is that it relates to Works Services overseas as well. Is he satisfied that the decision is not likely to have a detrimental effect on the work of the R.A.F. overseas, and will he not make representations to see if the matter cannot now be reconsidered as part of the general reorganisation of defence, of which we had an indication yesterday?

It does apply overseas as well. Myinvestigations of this matter show that it will work effectively overseas. If it does not I will certainly then make representations. However, at the moment, I am fully convinced that the new organisation will be effective overseas.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if it is intended to adapt the Zell take-off system for the V-bomber force.

No, Sir. There is no requirement for a take-off system of this type, which is inappropriate for so large and heavy an aircraft as a V-bomber.

Can the Secretary of State enlighten us as to what a Zell take-off system is and tell us why it is not suitable for this class of 'plane?

My hon. Friend the Member fox Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that Zell is the technical word used by the American forces to spell out "zero launch". It is a rocket propulsion job to get an aircraft up in a very short distance, but it cannot be applied to a very heavy aircraft. As far as the next stage goes, I would prefer to rely on vertical take-off rather than this proposed system, or the T.S.R.2, which is able to use dispersed airfields.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will make a statement about the future of St. Eval Airfield in Cornwall.

St. Eval is being retained as a reserve airfield. The married quarters are occupied by the families of men serving at Royal Air Force, St. Mawgan.

Asa reserve airfield, will St. Eval now be available to, say, the Admiralty or the Army for any exercises they may wish to have in Cornwall?

Yes, Sir. It has always been available. We always make it available to any Service that wants to use it.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will sell to the Camborne School of Metalliferous Mining the site and building they desire on the perimeter of St. Eval Airfield, so that it can be used as a base for field studies, so savingit from demolition.

As the hon. Member knows, my Department is discussing this proposal with the Ministry of Education, and will let him know the result.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am very grateful, especially for a letter I got yesterday afternoon from the Under-Secretary of State, as it reversed the decision I got on Monday? We are very grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's intervention in this case and saving this building from demolition, as we are sure that it will be used for very good purposes.

There has been no change of policy. It is a question that is primarily for the Ministry of Education to decide, because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a direct grant school and it is for that Ministry to decide on this expenditure.

May I point out that I was told that this building was to be demolished?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet received the report of the Road Research Council dealing with safety belts; and whether he intends to publish it.

The question of safety belts is investigated by the Road Research Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research as part of its normal programme. Some results showing the effect of safety belts on personal injury accidents have already been published. I understand that the results of a further investigation will be available soon, but their publication is a matter for my noble Friend the Minister for Science.

Will my hon. Friend see that something is done to achieve a little more standardisation than there is at present, as the many different types of safety belt are a deterrent to most people to use them and standardisation would reduce the high cost of fitting the belts?

It is certainly a matter that we will look into, but I am sure that my hon. Friend realises that different designs may have different safety factors. It is something we must look into.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is satisfied that the restrictions on Form D.L.2C on drivers between the ages of 17 and 21 years who hold provisional licences are printed sufficiently clearly to be read and understood; and if he will improve the wording and size of print on this form.

The print on this form is certainly on the small side, but I do not think that the conditions are particularly difficult to read. They are applicable to particular types of vehicles such as road rollers and agricultural tractors, and are drawn to the licence holder's attention by headings in much larger print. The majority of licence holders will not be concerned with them at all. As to the second part of the Question, the wording follows the Regu- lations which came into force on 1st July and were foreshadowed in debates on the Road Traffic Bill last year. The form will be incorporated in future stocks of licence books, and the print will be an improvement on the present temporary forms.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary really talking seriously? Has he seen the document he talks of, which no one can read without a magnifying glass? Is heprepared to furnish a magnifying glass, or some other device, to assist the individual to read the document? Is it really beyond the ingenuity of his Department to paraphrase the thing so that those reading it can have it in a succinct form, without all this verbiage? Is he really prepared to hand this form to people and expect them to observe its directions?

I understand the hon. Gentleman's difficulties, but I myself can read this print without any great difficulty. The point really is that these restrictions apply only to a few people. The headings are perfectly clear; people can see the headings and, if necessary, can then acquire a magnifying glass and read the print.

In view of the inadequate nature of the reply, to put it mildly, I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress he has made in his conversations with highway authorities about classification and percentage grants for the road improvements necessitated by railway closures.

We have been having general discussions with representatives of the local authorities' associations about changes in the system of paying grants to local authorities for work on classified roads. These discussions cover the whole field of grants for roadworks, and are not specifically concerned with the financing of any road improvements which may be necessitated by particular railway closures.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there will be quite a problem here in financing the extra roads that will be required to carry the heavier traffic? In my constituency we are losing 11 out of 14 stations, so that more road traffic will be needed to take people to the few remaining stations.

To a certain extent my hon. Friend's question is hypothetical, because we do not know yet what railways or stations will be closed, nor do we yet know the amount of extra traffic these closures will generate.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary deny that a great deal of road building or road widening will not be necessary as a consequence of carrying out the closures proposed in the Beeching Report?

The right hon. Gentleman is, perhaps, exaggerating the effect. If all the railway closure proposals are carried out, they will result in an increase over the country as a whole of only two months' growth, which is nothing very substantial. But I do accept that in some particular areas closures may have graver effects.

asked the Minister of Transport what discussions have taken place between his officials and representatives of the London County Council and the Kent County Council on the implications of the proposed new town on stilts for 25,000 people on Erith Marshes on the provision of new roads, the widening of existing roads and points of access necessitating bridges and flyovers; what progress has been made; and what further discussions are contemplated.

None, so far. But we have no doubt that the county councils will approach us at the appropriate time.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a brochure issued last December said that approaches were being made to the transport authorities? Will he got in touch with the Landon County Council, bearing in mind that many people now living in this area are under the shadow of not knowing whether their homes will be demolished for access points? Does he not appreciate the necessity of getting the decision as soon as possible, particularly when this brochure has been printed for months?

I can understand the difficulty of the hon. Gentleman's constituents, but I understand that the London County Council has not yet got any firm proposals. Until it has some firm proposals, we cannot make our plans. It is up to the local authority to come to my right hon. Friend, and then we can discuss matters.

asked the Minister of Transport how much land he has acquired in Porthill, Newcastle-under-Lyme, for future road schemes; if he is aware of the nuisance emanating from one of the sites he has compulsorily acquired; and if, in view of the amount of inevitable disturbance to local residents caused by road schemes, he will take special steps to put a stop to avoidable nuisances.

We have made advance purchases of an engineering works, and seven dwelling houses in Porthill, and we are negotiating for two more houses, none under compulsory powers. We have recently become aware of the complaints of nuisance about the engineering works and, when inquiries have been completed, my right hon. Friend will reply fully to the letter which the hon. Member sent to him on 8th July.

I have to thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but is he aware that there is a long-standing grievance about the siting of this industrial works in the middle of a residential area, and that there would be great benefit to the local community if the Ministry, having now become the landlord of this site, were to hasten the removal of this industrial works elsewhere?

I think that the best thing is to await the outcome of the investigations my right hon. Friend is conducting at the moment.

asked the Minister of Transport how many shipyards in Great Britain are now fully equipped for the building of ships for the carriage of methane gas; which they are; and what steps he is taking to increase the number of British shipyards so equipped.

Two yards are building methane tankers at present: Harland & Wolff's at Belfast and Vickers-Armstrong's at Barrow. It is for the shipbuilders themselves to decide whether to equip their yards for building vessels of this type, but I understand that a number of yards could readily be adapted.

Why are none of these contracts going to Aberdeen yards, which are particularly suitable for that kind of work, and where there is much unemployment? Will the hon. Gentleman, in conjunction with the President of the Board of Trade and other relevant Ministers, get cracking on this matter, to see that Aberdeen gets its fair share?

As the hon. and learned Gentleman probably knows, I had the benefit of visiting the yards at Aberdeen, but I think that this type of ship could more readily be built at yards accustomed to building passenger ships and tankers. That, at the moment, does not, I think, apply to the Aberdeen yards.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the needs of the Belfast yards are at least as severe as those at Aberdeen?

If my hon. Friend had listened to my Answer, he would have realised that at least one of these ships is being built at Belfast.

Would not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the reason why these yards are now doing the work is that they have the finest craftsmen in the world?

As a Clydesider, I do not know that I necessarily agree.