asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will seek to introduce a scheme to give financial inducements for the amalgamation of uneconomic holdings.

:The Agriculture Act, 1957 already provides for grants towards the costs of creating economic units out of uneconomic parcels of land. But I have the problem under review.

:Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that this is one of the great problems of the future in farming? Although I know that the process is taking place gradually, is there not a lot to be said for accelerating it? May that not be best in the interests of all concerned?

This problem is experienced not only in this country but in all developed countries. My hon. Friend may or may not know that in the last ten years, from 1952 to 1962, there has been a reduction of no less than 12 per cent. in the number of holdings, and there has been an increase of about the same amount in holdings of over 300 acres.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he is taking on the recommendation of the Royal Agricultural Society of the Commonwealth, the text of which has been sent to him, that the veterinary authorities in Britain should co-operate fully in promoting research into the blue tongue disease of cattle and sheep, even though it is unknown in Britain, and seek to devise in consultation with the veterinary authorities in Australia tests and quarantine safeguards which will again allow pedigree stock to be shipped freely from this country to Australia.

:The recommendation of the Royal Agricultural Society of the Commonwealth was brought to the notice of the Agricultural Research Council which has agreed to ask the Director of the Animal Virus Diseases Research Institute at Pirbright to initiate research on blue tongue disease when resources permit. My veterinary advisers have frequent discussions with the Australians on this problem and they are drawing their attention to the recommendation and inviting their co-operation on it.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that the action he has taken will give great satisfaction to stockbreeders in this country and also to many in Australia, who are anxiously awaiting the day when they will again be allowed to import pure-bred stock from this country, because they are feeling the need of a fresh infusion of blood?

I am glad to hear my hon. Friend's assertion that that is so, and also to know the part that he himself played in the recommendations made by the Royal Agricultural Society.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to intervene in the grain market this year in order to stabilise prices and minimise the subsidy bill; and whether he will introduce immediately a minimum import price for barley and wheat.

Since the necessary consultations with the Governments of our overseas suppliers, parallel to those which we are having with the farmers' and trade organisations here at home, were plainly going to need some time, there was never any question of putting our proposed new import arrangements into operation for this harvest. In the meantime we shall maintain close contact with our principal overseas suppliers, seeking their co-operation with us in maintaining a stable market.

In view of the estimated yield in the barley crop of at least 6 million tons this year, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it is necessary to intervene, or is he going to wait till next year before putting, so to speak, a bottom into the market?

When I made my statement to the House on 22nd May I said that we needed to go through a process of consultation. We are endeavouring to reach agreement with our overseas suppliers in order to bring this about. As I say, this will not be possible in time for this harvest. We hope to have it completed in time for the next harvest—that is the programme we have in mind—and in the meantime we are resting on the arrangements that we already have.

:Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to publicise the working party agreed prices so that farmers may make a big effort to get the working party price and not undercut their own market by selling at a lower price, thus adding to the subsidy bill in the coming year?

I am glad my hon. Friend has mentioned this. In fact, I put out a Press statement and made a speech on those lines early last week.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will introduce a new grade of quality milk.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the proposed introduction of a new milk grade.

:It is the function of the Milk Marketing Board, as the marketing authority, to put forward proposals for a new grade of milk, after consulting the dairymen in Joint Committee. We have been having discussions with the Milk Marketing Board about their proposals, but I do not believe that the House would accept from me an Order permitting the sale of a new grade of milk to consumers at a price higher than normal, unless it was to be significantly and recognisably different from ordinary milk, and its higher quality could readily be checked.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is a highly complex problem involving the relative merits of a fixed-quality top grade, or a floating-quality top grade, and that in some cases some distributors do not wish to distribute this, but that it is vital to proceed with this system, and we hope that it will be successful?

It is a question of whether we can first of all devise arrangements to satisfy the conditions which I, and I believe my hon. Friend, regard as necessary.

:Discussions have been going on now for nearly two years. When will the Minister make up his mind? Is not he aware that the Milk Marketing Board is not hostile to a new quality grade and neither are the producers? What is the delay?

:As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, this has been talked about for a long time now, but it was not until February of this year that specific proposals were put forward by the Milk Marketing Board, and the Board was advised of our comments during the first week of April. Discussions are continuing.

:As the dairy industry is now functioning without a subsidy, why does my right hon. Friend have to come into it at all? Cannot he leave it to those concerned to work out their own future?

:If my hon. Friend means by that that he thinks that we should stop controlling the price of milk, I must remind him that, since the Milk Marketing Board is the only seller of milk in this country, it is a protection to the consumer which we should not lightly abandon.

:The Minister said that negotiations are going on. Can he tell the House when these negotiations are likely to be completed so that he may make a really positive announcement?

It is not a matter of negotiations. I do not think that I used that word.

Discussions.

:I said that the Milk Marketing Board put forward specific proposals in February and we told the Board in April of the difficulties which we saw in those proposals. We are still in discussion about whether they can be altered in order to meet the need. I could not give an estimate of when the discussions may be concluded.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will consider means whereby the income of the small milk producer can be increased to a level commensurate with the capital and labour employed.

:The Government increased the guaranteed price for milk by ½d. a gallon at the Price Review, and the standard quantity on which it is paid was also raised, reflecting increased liquid consumption. The chairman of the Milk Marketing Board is reported to have said that the pool price to producers is likely to be at least 1d. a gallon more this year than last. Over the year, this would give a substantial increase in the return to producers, and indicates that the balance between production and consumption is now improving.

This, of course, is because so many small farmers have been driven out of milk. Is my right hon. Friend aware that, over the past several years, the pool price per gallon of milk has gone down and that, in spite of the farmers' increased efficiency, costs have risen faster than their efficiency? Does he really think that the very small increase which was given this year in the Price Review is adequate to ensure that these small farmers remain in business?

:As my hon. Friend knows, the reason why the pool price has been reduced has nothing to do with the guaranteed price but arises from the amount of milk which was being produced over and above that which was required for the liquid market. It is this which has been getting out of balance and has led to the reduction of the pool price to the producer. It was for this reason, not wanting to start the vicious spiral again, that we put on just the ½d. at the Review. In fact, things are going very much as we foresaw at the time, with the happy result that, as I have said, the Milk Marketing Board will be able to give an increase of at least 1d. on the pool price this year, an outcome which is, perhaps, more satisfactory than my hon. Friend might have thought at the time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the movement of retail milk prices, in relation to the cost of living, over the last three years.

:Since 1960 the average price of milk has risen slightly less than the cost of living generally. Comparing the first six months of this year with the first half of 1960, the rise is 8½ per cent. for milk and 10 per cent. for the cost of living.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is correct or not, as I have heard stated, that we are getting a better price for our milk in this country than any other European country, except Sweden?

:It is difficult to assess this because of the service which is given as well as the actual providing of the milk—the service of delivery on a door-to-door basis which we enjoy in this country which very few other countries have. Certainly the price of milk in this country is as high as any in Europe.

No.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the cost of the swine fever compensation scheme to date; how many pigs have been slaughtered; and how the number of outbreaks compares with previous years.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the sum paid in compensation to pig owners for animals slaughtered in connection with outbreaks of swine fever from the inception of the scheme to date; and in how many cases compensation has been paid twice for successive outbreaks.

From 11th March, when the slaughter policy for swine fever was introduced, to 15th July, approximately 164,000 pigs had been slaughtered. Compensation is estimated at £1·8 million to date in the current financial year, plus £325,000 paid in 1962–63. The number of herds slaughtered in this period was 802, including 169 in which disease had been confirmed before 11th March. The 633 outbreaks confirmed since 11th March compares with 635 outbreaks in 1962 and an average of 498 for the past five years. There have been 16 cases in which disease has been confirmed a second time on the same premises.

:These are very large figures indeed both of the number of herds and of the amounts paid. Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the scheme will result in the elimination of swine fever if pursued far enough, and has he got the rules right about restocking? It seems that some of the restocking in premises which have been infected is rather quick. Do not the alarming number of second cases where compensation has been paid seem to indicate that something is a little wrong? Further, is not my right hon. Friend providing an insurance which the scheme was not intended to provide? Some owners of herds keep very large numbers together in one place. Does it not appear, very often, that there is a risk in the holding of such large numbers which normally would be carried by the private owner but which my right hon. Friend is tending to carry under this scheme?

We were expecting a large incidence of the disease because it was rife at the time when we introduced the policy. In fact, the weekly incidence has come down from between 50 to 60 in the opening stages of the scheme and it is now running at about 20 to 30. This is a considerable improvement. We always expected that it would be high, as it always is when we start a slaughter policy.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many outbreaks of fowl plague have occurred in the present year; and whether he will give information about the source of infection concerned in recent cases of the disease.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what types of bird have been affected by the recent outbreak of fowl plague in Norfolk; how many of each type have been slaughtered; what sums have been paid in compensation for each type; and how many firms or persons have received compensation.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps have been taken by his Department to trace the origin of the two recent outbreaks of fowl plague in Norfolk; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much compensation was paid in each of the two recent outbreaks of fowl plague in Norfolk.

Two outbreaks of fowl plague have been confirmed this year. Only turkeys were affected, and 31,820 were slaughtered. In addition, 44,631 eggs were destroyed, and 300 fowls and 23 other birds considered to be at risk were slaughtered. Eleven owners were involved altogether. Compensation is estimated at £160,000, but the Ministry's valuations have been disputed in some cases and may be referred to arbitration. Our veterinary staff have carried out a great many investigations into the outbreaks, including the inspection of all stock in the neighbourhood; the inspection of stock belonging to the owners' employees; the inspection of stock held elsewhere by the same owner, and investigations at his slaughtering plant; the tracing of visitors to the owner's premises; inquiries at veterinary laboratories which investigated disease on the premises before fowl plague was confirmed; the investigation of deaths of rooks in the area; and the blood sampling of wild birds at two bird sanctuaries.

:Will the Department go very seriously into the incidence of these outbreaks of fowl plague occurring, apparently, on the same farm at which fowl pest occurred previously and, moreover, occurring there after compensation for fowl pest was stopped? Will the hon. Gentleman realise that there is considerable uneasiness throughout the farming world about the high cost of these outbreaks?

I hoped that the House would realise how seriously we view these outbreaks having regard to the action taken and investigations pursued by the Ministry. Researches have gone on and are continuing. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are taking every precaution to find the means by which the outbreak occurred and to prevent any recurrence.

:Is there a definite and absolute distinction in the clinical and other symptoms between this disease and fowl pest? I mean an absolute distinction, not one that is a matter of judgment on the part of the expert. Further, is my hon. Friend quite sure that this disease must stay on the list of diseases for which there is slaughter after attacks, in view of the enormous amount of trouble caused among poultry keepers by the fowl pest scheme which we had earlier and which we have now abandoned?

:The two viruses, the virus of the Newcastle disease of fowl pest and that of the per-acute form of fowl plague, are completely separate. The vaccine for fowl pest is not effective at all against fowl plague. The present arrangement must continue because this is an extremely acute form of disease with a very high mortality rate, and I think that the only method of controlling it is that practised at present, namely, slaughter.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consultations he is having with the National Farmers' Union with regard to the introduction of minimum grades for apples and pears, following the decision by Home Grown Fruits to introduce minimum grades from the commencement of the season.

I am at present considering suggestions put forward by the National Farmers' Union for a minimum grade scheme for apples and pears.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give the percentage change in the net farm income of the United Kingdom between 1957 and 1962, using 1957 as the base year, as adjusted for normal weather conditions; and if he will give the figure when adjusted to take account in the change in purchasing power between the two dates.

:These figures are not available for calendar years, but figures for the crop years covering 1957 and 1962 show an increase of 13 per cent., or about 2 per cent. after adjustment for the change in purchasing power.

:This figure is low. Bearing that in mind, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the farmer whose capital is at considerable risk compared with many other businesses is getting a fair return on his capital and management employed?

:This is a problem which, as my hon. Friend knows, is not confined to this country. The relationship between farm income and the income of the rest of the economy, in a rising standard of living, with people devoting a higher proportion of their earnings to goods other than food, is bound to make difficult the achievement of what we would all like to see, not only here but in all industrial countries. However, the relationship between farm income in this country and that of the rest of the economy compared with the same relationship in other countries has fared well under our system of support.

Is not it rather dangerous to take specific years such as 1957? Could my right hon. Friend say what would happen if he took 1956 or 1958?

:The figure would be much better from the point of view of farm income if the year 1958 were taken. One can take specific years and make what one will of them.

asked the Minister of of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied with the effects on health of the Preservatives in Food Regulations, 1962; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. The Regulations lay down what preservatives may be used in what foods, and up to what amounts. We are satisfied that this is the right way to control the use of preservatives and that the uses which are permitted present no hazard to health.

Since the Minister has had to introduce special regulations to deal with the hazards to health of antibiotics in milk, can he say what study is being made of the effects on health of antibiotics used in ice to preserve fish, particularly in view of the claim of the industry that most of the residue of antibiotics in fish is destroyed in cooking?

:I note what the hon. Lady says, but all regulations on food additives are reviewed periodically by the Food Standards Committee. If any doubt were cast on them by the Committee, I would take immediate action on what it suggested.

:Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that the Food Standards Committee is able to work quickly enough and on a big enough scale in these matters? Is it not time that the working of the Food Standards Committee itself, which has been very satisfactory indeed, should be reviewed to see whether it can work more speedily?

One always wants these committees to work as quickly as they can, but this Committee is working reasonably rapidly. The sub-committee is examining special items. On the whole, I think these committees are working with reasonable efficiency.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to receive the report of the panel under the chairmanship of Dr. Barnell inquiring into residues of pesticides in foodstuffs.

:This is a panel of the Scientific Sub-Committee of the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances and it hopes to submit its initial findings to the sub-committee in the autumn.

:Why was no mention made of this survey when the Parliamentary Secretary replied to my Questions on 1st April and 6th May on this subject? In view of the fact that the survey paid particular attention to residues of chlorinated hydrocarbons, including D.D.T., in foodstuffs and their effect on health, does the hon. Gentleman propose to issue any warning to gardeners and farmers to treat with caution the Ministry's advice and approval of these chemicals until the report of the panel is received?

:I think we should wait until the panel has reported and have seen its recommendations. In fact, I referred to this when I spoke in the Adjournment debate on this subject.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to encourage more recruits to agriculture to undertake training in the National Apprenticeship Scheme.

The Agricultural Apprenticeship Scheme in England and Wales is the industry's own scheme, but it has the Government's full active support. All Ministry officers, particularly those whose duties bring them into contact with farmers, are instructed to take every opportunity to spreading knowledge of this scheme among suitable farmers and farm workers. In addition, secretarial and other help, such as the selection of candidates and farmers, is given to the committees who are responsible under the central Apprenticeship Council for the operation and furtherance of the scheme in the counties. Since the revision of the scheme in 1961, the industry has been showing an increasing appreciation of its value.

:Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that, although this increasing appreciation is to be welcomed, it is still unsatisfactory that only about 3 per cent. of recruits to agriculture go through this scheme whereas in industry generally about 40 per cent. of the recruits undergo some form of apprenticeship or organised training? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the way in which it is being applied is very uneven throughout the country? For example, in Bedfordshire 25 per cent. of the recruits are going into it and in other counties none at all. Could the hon. Gentleman's officials pay particular attention to those counties which have not made a start this year?

I agree that this is slow in starting, but there are special difficulties in agriculture. The National Farmers' Union and the National Union of Agricultural Workers are paying particular attention to and showing a keen interest in this new scheme, and the Government's proposals in the White Paper on Industrial Training have particular relevance to this. However, in some areas where there are many small farms, it is difficult to get going, to find suitable farmers and to release farm workers to participate in these schemes.

:Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in Norfolk and other agricultural counties of importance very few youngsters are in the National Apprenticeship Scheme? In these areas there is little other employment for youngsters. The reason that young people are not prepared to tie themselves to the agricultural industry is that they can see no future in it. Since the hon. Gentleman reminds us that this scheme has the Government's support—and I agree that it is a good scheme; I wish that more youngsters would participate in it—may I ask what practical steps the Government propose to take to make agriculture more attractive in order to get youngsters into it?

As I have indicated, I am as anxious as the hon. Gentleman to see more apprentices coming into the scheme. It is up to the industry itself to help and to enthuse young people going into it to take this course. I think that the Government's proposals in the White Paper will help in this respect.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he hopes to approve the plans for the new public abattoir for Newcastle-upon-Tyne; and if he will expedite his decision.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are the reasons for the delay in the provision of a new public abattoir for Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

A great deal of preparatory work and consultation is necessary before a project of this kind can be put in hand, and I understand that town planning considerations have added to the council's difficulties. The council will have received by now my right hon. Friend's approval in principle of its sketch plans for loan sanction purposes. I know that it shares our view about the urgency of the situation.

:There is real urgency about this scheme. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, owing to no land being available within the City of Newcastle, slum property has had to be condemned, people rehoused and the slums pulled down before sites and proposals could be submitted to him? Now that the hon. Gentleman has received the proposals, could he ensure that no avoidable delay takes place in his Department before approval is given to the scheme which is so urgently required within the City?

I will certainly give that assurance. We will do everything we can to help. As I say, we have already given loan sanction to the outline scheme. I am informed that the council hopes to have a contract for work to start in 1964. The council is well seized of the urgency of this scheme.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the great public concern in Newcastle about this matter? I think that he will confirm that this scheme has been mooted since 1958 and that, in fact, exploratory talks took place between the Minister and the corporation in June, 1960, which is over three years ago. May we know why this delay has taken place? Is it the fault of the Ministry or the fault of the city council?

:It is certainly not our fault. We have done everything we can to hurry this on. However, when one talks in terms of such an enormous scheme as this, obviously one must be certain—and, indeed, the council must be certain—that one is meeting the needs of the area and not wasting money. I assure my hon. Friend that the council and I fully realise the urgency of the scheme and are doing everything we can to expedite its completion.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps the Government are taking to ensure that there is an adequate supply of qualified meat inspectors, in view of the fact that he is arranging for a 100 per cent. meat inspection.

:Local authorities are responsible for providing the inspectors for meat inspection. But the special provisions covering the first two years of the new arrangements, to which I referred in my reply on 15th July, will allow meat to be taken away if it has not been inspected after six hours. Local authorities will have to notify us each time this, is likely to happen, and we shall then be able to offer the services of one of our veterinary officers, wherever possible. We shall also in this way get to know of any problems, so that we can co-operate in solving them.

To help overworked meat inspectors of small local authorities, can my right hon. Friend look into the possibility of limiting the hours of slaughtering to set times?

:We have already considered that. This suggestion was mooted during our discussions with both local authorities and the trade and we reached the conclusion that to do that would interfere too much with the traditional trade.

:Can the Minister give an assurance that his new regulations will produce 100 per cent. inspection?

:That is the aim, which, I know, is shared by the trade as much as by us. I am convinced that unless we have regulations of this sort, we shall never reach a figure of 100 per cent. I believe that we have got to have this two years' delay, but I expect to see considerable improvement on the figure of 90 per cent. shortly after the regulations come into effect. It is our hope that at the end of the two years we shall have 100 per cent. inspection.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he proposes to take in respect of home and imported supplies, as a result of the increase in wholesale meat prices in recent weeks.

:The only meat to show any significant rise in price in recent weeks has been beef. Wholesale beef prices have now recovered from the exceptionally low levels reached in April, but are still only about the same level as at this time last year. I see no need for any steps to be taken at present, but I can assure the hon. Member that I am keeping the market situation under constant review.

Is it not logical that if restrictions on imports are imposed when prices go down the restrictions should be lifted when prices move the other way? Does not all this show that the deficiency payments scheme is not much good? When will the Verdon Smith Committee report?

I disagree profoundly with what the hon. Member has said about the deficiency payments schemes. What we have done is to ensure that meat is at the same sort of reasonable price as it was during 1962, which was lower than anywhere else in Europe and below the guaranteed price to our farmers. But for the arrangements which we made with the Argentine earlier in the year, I believe that we would have faced—which, I am now hopeful, we need not have to face—a considerable Supplementary Estimate, as happened two years ago, which, I am sure, the hon. Member would not welcome any more than we would.

When will the Verdon Smith Committee report?

I hope in the autumn.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what evidence he has that papa in has a harmful effect on meat.

:None, Sir. Papain has been used for many years both in food and in medicine and there is nothing to suggest that it is harmful.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make regulations to ensure that meat, artificially tenderised by pre-slaughter injections, is specifically labelled as such in the shops.

:My right hon. Friend has asked the Food Standards Committee, which is now engaged on a general review of the labelling of food, to consider whether any such special labelling should be made compulsory.

In thanking by hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to bear in mind that a housewife who wants to buy prime steak should be provided with the proper article and not an artificially doctored substitute which is sold as such?

I am informed that the use of the item in question does not change the appearance of the meat. It only makes it more tender. We are referring the whole question to the Committee to see whether special labelling should be used for this process.

Does the hon. Gentleman really mean what he says, that it does not matter as long as it looks the same? Is not the whole purpose that the house wife should know how and with what substance the meat has been treated? If she is paying 5s. 6d. or 6s. per lb., should she not get the genuine article?

As I have said, the firm concerned is anxious that this item should be labelled, and I have referred the matter to the Committee to see whether labelling should be made compulsory. The application of this item does not change the appearance or flavour of the meat; it only makes it more tender. There is no question of inferior meat being sold as Aberdeen Angus because of this process.

If the Minister is so certain of the consequences of this process, why has it been referred to the Food Standards Committee? How often does that Committee meet to deal with problems of this kind, and how many references have been made to it?

:I have said that I am certain that the process does not affect the flavour or the look of the meat. The reason why it has been referred to the Committee is to consider whether labelling should be made compulsory. I have said that the firm which is marketing the process wishes this to be done in any event.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease have occurred in Great Britain since July, 1962.

:None, Sir. The last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Wales was in June, 1962; in England in March, 1962, and in Scotland in February, 1961.

:To what causes does my right hon. Friend attribute this very satisfactory clean bill of health for twelve months? In the past, we have had reason to believe that infection has come from the Continent of Europe and from the Argentine. Has my right hon. Friend any evidence that Continental countries are tightening up their arrangements and clearing themselves of foot-and-mouth disease and that the Argentine is observing more closely the rules which we require to be applied as health safeguards to meat which is sent to this country?

:There are three major factors in the improvement. The first is our own slaughter policy, to which we have held throughout. The second is improved control of foot-and-mouth disease in the Argentine, the banning of pig meat and offal from South America and the close control which is exercised by those countries over meat exported to this country. In addition, all neighbouring European countries now also have a slaughter policy and this, supported by the vaccination which they also carry out, has greatly reduced the incidence of disease on the Continent and, therefore, the danger of its being transmitted here.

Although the position is satisfactory, may I ask the Minister not to be complacent, despite the supplementary question by his hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd)? We must still maintain vigilance.

Of course, we are vigilant and the slaughter policy continues. I hope that I am not tempting Providence if I say that this is the first time since 1918 that Great Britain has been free from the disease for more than twelve months.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he proposes to implement the Convention on Plant Breeders' Rights.

Before ratifying their signature of the Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants, Her Majesty's Government must, of course, be in a position to apply its provisions to a minimum number of plant species, and this cannot be done until a system of plant breeders' rights has been established in this country. As the House will be aware, legislation for this purpose is in preparation.

Can the Minister give any indication when this legislation will come? Will it be in the autumn, or when?

:I do not think that the hon. Member would like me to speculate at the end of one Session what the legislation is likely to be in the next Session.

May I remind my right horn. Friend that it is about three years since the Engholm Committee originally reported? Was his attention drawn to a report in the Press last weekend of an annual meeting of a plant breeding firm, at which the managing director said that it was impossible to continue with research on new varieties until such time as we had policies on the lines envisaged?

Yes, I am well aware of both those facts. I am also aware that this House has dealt with a good deal of legislation in the past few years, much of which has come from my Department.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why representatives of the Cornish potato growers were not consulted before the extension of the closing dates for French new potatoes from 15th to 30th June was granted.

:I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) on 4th July.

I have read the reply to which the Minister has referred, but I have in my hand a letter from a leading Cornish farmer, who is respected by everybody in the farming world in Cornwall, who states that

"The extension of the French date was done without the…growers' representatives being consulted."

If the hon. Gentleman has read the Answer to which I referred—as he says hehas—he will have seen that this is purely a matter of plant health. Potatoes can be kept out only if there is a risk of plant health disease being brought in. The protection which early-potato growers enjoy in this country is in the month of June and they are protected by a tariff to the tune of £9 and some shillings a ton. Over and above this there is plant health protection. This year, according to the advice I received from experts, there was no plant health risk in bringing in potatoes from France, but there was a plant health risk in bringing them from Italy, or a large area of Italy. But there was no risk in those coming from France and I had no alternative under the regulations.

This technical explanation is all very well, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that small farmers lost £400 in a fortnight in respect of these import licences and that it was a pretty serious business for a farmer with 100 acres?

The principal cause was not the imports, which did not amount to a great quantity from France during the latter half of June, but it was the concertina-ing of the crops. This crop is normally cleared some weeks ago, but only 80 per cent. of it has been cleared, and this is what caused low prices, not imports, but even if that had not been so I had no alternative but to allow these potatoes in provided there was no plant health risk.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what decision he has made regarding special support for the North Eastern Association of the Arts.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what special contribution he is making to the North-Eastern Association for the Arts; and when it will be made.

The Association's request for extra funds is one of the many matters being studied by the Government in the light of my noble Friend's report.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say whether this is seriously considered? Does he realise that the Arts Council could do far more to help in the provinces and that this Association should receive every help from the Arts Council, for it is doing excellent work in the North-East, and this is an important matter?

:This matter is being seriously considered. It is for the Arts Council, of course, to apportion its funds, but I think it worth while drawing the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that the Council already spends £50,000 a year in the North-East.

Would the hon. Gentleman give consideration to matching local authority grants with an equal grant from the Government? Is he aware of the excellent response there has been from all local authorities in the North-East and that this would be a very good way of encouraging them still further?

I will certainly bear in mind the point the hon. Member has raised.

:Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that I am awaiting with interest and hope the reply to representations I have made in this matter? Can he say what the total support which the Arts Council gives in the region is and not only to our Association?

:With regard to the Association, the Arts Council is at present donating about £10,000. That is to the Association. In addition, as I have said, it already spends about £50,000 a year in the North-East. I am told that a month or two ago the Council agreed in principle to take on an additional commitment, to the tune of about £5,000 a year for three years, as a share in the Flora Robson Playhouse in Newcastle.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what new projects are proposed by the Government in the North-East for absorbing unemployed men and women in the next 12 months, and the following two years, respectively.

A list of measures announced by the Government to increase employment in the North-East was circulated in the Official Report on 13th May. Since then my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has authorised additional road work costing £1·5 million in the area, the capital programme for Durham and Newcastle University colleges have been rephased to enable an additional £135,000 to be spent in 1963 and an offer has been made to Kings College, Newcastle, for the creation of a Department of Agricultural Marketing. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman of the £30 million which Her Majesty's Government are prepared to lend British shipowners for construction in this country, and of the announcement of the construction in the North-East, with Export Credits Guarantee Department support, of two more cargo vessels for Ghana, which was made on 12th June.

Do we understand that after all the investigations and activities and labour of the Lord President of the Council this is all that is being done in the North-East? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the £30 million for the shipbuilding industry has not begun and may not start for a considerable time? Will he stop dodging about in generalisations and tell us what is being done and what is in prospect for the next three years?

:I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to Hansard of 13th May, and if he will add to it the projects which I have just described, he will see that this is a quite substantial programme which will provide jobs over the next few years.

:Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that in spite of what has happened there are still 1,750 miners registered as unemployed and with no prospect of being absorbed into employment, and that there are a very large number of unemployed outside the mining industry and that there are prospects of further redundancies? Is this all that is being done by the Government? If so, why do not the Government come clean and say they are incapable of solving this problem?

:Because it would not be true. The measures which have been announced are, of course, in the main short-term measures. The Government will be making a further announcement when they have considered theReport which my noble Friend has made to his colleagues.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the so-called short-term measures are having no effect at all, and that we are still losing our industrial working population at the rate of some 12,000 a year from the North-East? When will the Government give us a tangible scheme to deal with the short-term position, and when are we going to get the report on the Lord President of the Council's visit to the North-East?

Naturally the short-term projects, such as I have announced, are providing jobs for a large number of people. For the long-term prospects, dealing in particular with those in the mining and shipbuilding industries, the hon. Gentleman must await further Government announcements.

:Can my hon. Friend say whether specific requests have been made by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) for help?

Dozens.

I should have to look into that.

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall take the first opportunity of raising this on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many general directions have been given to British European Airways and British Overseas Airways Corporation, respectively, under the Air Corporations Act, 1949, and on what subjects.

:No general directions have been given under Section 5 of the Air Corporations Act, 1949. Under the corresponding powers in the Civil Aviation Act, 1946, one direction was given to British European Airways; that was in 1947, concerning the transfer of certain European routes from B.O.A.C. to B.E.A. The circumstances in which this direction was given are set out in the Reports of British European Airways and British Overseas Airways Corporation for the year 1947–48.

While not deprecating the value of the informal talks, is it not desirable that a few more directions should have been given over a period of14 years or more to make quite plain, in the national interest, what the views of the Government are?

I do not know whether my hon. Friend has any particular points in mind. It would be difficult to answer a general question of this character.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he has now received the advice of the Transport Air craft Requirements Committee as to the development of the Skyvan light freighter; and if he will make a statement.

:I understand that the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee will be considering the company's latest proposals for this project at its next meeting. This is being held at the end of this month.

:While I welcome that announcement, may I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind the considerable urgency of coming to a decision on the future of this excellent aircraft?

Yes, Sir; I fully appreciate the need for an early decision, particularly in relation to the Short's design team. But I am certain, having myself seen the aircraft, that it will stand on its own merits.

asked the Minister of Aviation what amount of research into laminar flow has been expended during the past 10 years; and what existing contracts have been placed.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) on 24th June. As my hon. Friend knows, there is an existing contract for the development and construction of the laminarised swept wing now being flight tested on a Lancaster aircraft. A further contract is now to be placed for the project study based on the conversion of a DH.125 to laminar flow.

:What my right hon. Friend says may be all right, but is he aware that in the last ten years British engineers have been leading the world in this development and that the Americans are now beginning to catch us up? If he is going to place a new contract, will he speed it up and let us get something moving so that we regain our leading place in the world?

I agree with my hon. Friend that this was a field in which we were pioneers. I have done my best to get things moving. I am glad to say that we are getting the new project study based on the DH.125 into action right away.

asked the Minister of Aviation what further steps he intends to take to increase the competitive efficiency of the British Overseas Airways Corporation.

I am considering in the light of the Corbett Report what action the Government should take to further B,O.A.C.'s own efforts in this direction.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that B.O.A.C. made a further large loss during the last financial year and that the Corbett Report has been in the Minister's hands for several weeks? Should we not have had a statement already and also an opportunity to debate this serious subject before the House rises?

I do not think so. I have had the Report in my hands only about a month. I was, as the hon. Gentleman knows, in the Soviet Union until late in June, and it was on my desk only a few days before I came back. I have been studying it, but, as the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, although the Ministry of Aviation has to take the lead in matters of this kind, we have to discuss them with other Government Departments. I am not in a position to make a statement, let alone give the House information on which to base a debate.

Unless we know the contents of the Report, how can we judge whether the measures which the Minister will take are sufficient to deal with the problems revealed by the Report? Does he not agree that until such time as the House and the country know the content of the Report, any action which he or B.O.A.C. may take cannot be judged effectively against the size of the problem?

No, Sir. I think that the House will need a good deal of information and advice from the Government before it debates it, but not necessarily in the form of the Corbett Report itself.

As no secrets are involved in this nationalised industry, would it not be better for the House and the country to know the worst? It cannot be much worse than it is today. The sooner the House knows about the matter and debates it, the better.

I think that the best thing would be for me, in due course, to lay the information before the House in the form of a White Paper, which would serve as the basis for a debate.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he is aware that British non-scheduled flying operations have recently been shown to be at least 20 times less safe than British scheduled flying operations over the last five years; and what is his policy on improving the safety standards of British non-scheduled flying operations.

It is true that over the last five years there have been more accidents in British non-scheduled flying operations than in scheduled operations—and this is also true for the United States. The total number of accidents, however, is so small that any statistical comparison can be misleading.

Was not this estimate made after a survey by the very responsible aviation journal, Flight, and is it not the case that the Ministry has increased British non-scheduled operations by 50 per cent. since 1960, and, even worse, foreign non-scheduled operations from these islands by 300 per cent., without any really substantial attempts to improve safety?

:The House must be very careful indeed about paying too much attention to figures like these. It is not clear on what basis the figures in the article were worked out, but they probably relate to the number of fatalities. On this basis, as the hon. Gentleman who read the article in Flight must know, and as was pointed out in the article, the figures can be distorted by one accident with a very large number of fatalities, such as the one to Caledonian Airways at Douala, where 101 were killed, compared with the B.E.A. accident at Munich, where twenty-five were killed.

Is it possible that the hon. Gentleman has not read the article? The article makes it clear that various factors have been introduced to make corrections for the very factors to which he is referring?

The article still makes it very clear that the figures are based on a very small number of fatalities and should not be taken too much to heart.

:Does not the recent disaster to Mr. Cleife, which we all very much regret, in trying to fly from the Scilly Islands to Plymouth when B.E.A. was grounded by fog, indicate that there were inadequate Ministerial precautions in regard to non-scheduled flights compared with scheduled flights?

:I think that the Ministerial precautions are there. Following the Civil Aviation Licensing Act, 1960, all public air transport operators are required to hold air operators' certificate certifying—

:On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the accident to which reference has been made took place only on Saturday and the pilot is critically ill, ought not this matter to be considered sub judice until the inquiry has been held?

I do not know whether the matter is sub judice. Whether it is thought fit to answer the question or not is not a matter for me.

sked the Minister of Aviation what progress is being made in the preparation of legislation creating a separate airport authority for London Airport.

:Most of the preparatory work has been done. Further progress depends on when Parliamentary time can be found.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the increasing anxiety among many interested parties for the early implementation of the report in relation to London Airport? Can he give an assurance that the necessary legislation will be introduced in the early part of next Session?

:The Parliamentary timetable, as the hon. Gentleman knows, does not depend on me; it is a collective decision of the Government. However, I appreciate the importance which he attaches to the Measure, and I hope that when time is found for it, the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend will both manage to be present.

asked the Attorney-General if he is aware that the Law of Property Act in England and Wales, in so far as it relates to the holding of flat properties, is not as satisfactory as that of Scotland; and whether he will seek to amend the law to enable owners of flats in England and Wales to be in as satisfactory a position as those in Scotland.

:The main advantage of the Scottish law appears to be that it enables certain positive obligations, such as the duty to keep a roof or supporting wall in repair, to be mutually enforceable between the owners of freehold flats. My noble Friend, the Lord Chancellor has recently appointed a committee under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Wilberforce to consider whether, and to what extent, it is desirable to amend the English law relating to the enforcement and assign ability of positive covenants affecting land, and I think we should await the recommendations of this committee.

:Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that one of the practical effects of the law is that no building society can give an advance on a freehold flat in this country, and that this is, clearly, undesirable?

:Certainly, Sir. That is the practical coinsequence of the difference between the two systems of law. That is why my noble Friend has appointed a committee to consider whether English law could not be made the same as Scottish law in this respect.

asked the Attorney-General if he is satisfied with the workings of the present law relating to libel; and whether he will consider the setting up of an inquiry into its reform.

:The law of libel was comprehensively reviewed by the Porter Committee in 1948 and effect was given to the Committee's recommendations by the Defamation Act, 1952. I do not think there is any need for a further inquiry at the present time, but I shall be glad to consider any suggestions for reform which my hon. Friend may care to send me.

Apropos the Attorney-General's observation that there is no need for such an inquiry at the present time, does he not realise that many recent events make an amendment of the law of libel urgently necessary and that an inquiry is, therefore, urgent and should be prosecuted at once?

With respect, I should have thought that the facts were all fairly well known. It is a difficult question of balance in the law—to hold a balance between the right of the Press to give publicity to a matter and the very proper view, I think, that every citizen has a right to protection against unjust and untrue attacks which may be utterly ruinous to him if they get very wide publicity. While I appreciate the difficulty of holding this balance between those two public necessities, I should have thought that the facts were sufficiently well known at present and that an inquiry into them was not of itself necessary. As I have said to my hon. Friend, I am quite willing to consider any suggestions which may be made.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he has studied the letter, dated 20th June, from Rosemount Old Age Pensioners, Aberdeen, protesting against the present level of pensions; and what reply he has sent.

Yes, Sir, and I have written to the hon. and learned Member about it.

:Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his letter of reply is a confession of failure because it misses the point made by the Rosemount old age pensioners, to whom it purports to reply, and leaves untouched the present invidious policy which presses painfully on some old pensioners but not on others? Will not the right hon. Gentleman substitute a system which will be fair and just to all, as the Rosemount pensioners require?

:I will willingly read the letters again, but I think the main point the hon. and learned Member was making really related to the question of a special allowance for fuel, which, of course, is an intermittent one. It goes on in the winter and off in the summer. I think that was the point of the letter and that it has been completely met.

(by Private Notice) asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will instruct the United Kingdom delegate to the Security Council to support the request by 32 African States for the imposition of an arms embargo against South Africa.

The meeting of the Security Council concerned has been called at the request of 32 African States to consider the situation existing in the Portuguese territories and in the Republic of South Africa. In the memorandum accompanying their letter on South Africa to the President of the Council, they referred to a comprehensive resolution adopted by the General Assembly on 6th November, 1962, which called, among other things, for the rupture of diplomatic relations with South Africa and a total trade embargo. The debate is, therefore, likely to range over a wide field.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government's policy to date on the export of arms to South Africa has been entirely unsatisfactory? Is he not further aware that the United Nations Sub-Committee on apartheid has, in its second report to the Security Council, reiterated its call for a total embargo on the export of arms and ammunition to South Africa?

I am aware of the recommendation of which the hon. Lady speaks, but perhaps we had better await an announcement of United States policy before we form a judgment about it. Our policy is always to scrutinise all these applications for arms, from the political as well as the economic point of view, and the fact that they may be used for internal repression is a most important factor which is taken into consideration.

First, is it not clear that the Government have been trimming a little on this from their attitude last year an a result of pressure from this side of the House? The right hon. Gentleman has now told us that shipments are scrutinised in relation to internal use. Yet I was repeatedly told last year by Ministers that they would not interfere with shipments of tear gas, tear gas equipment, or a whole list of other things to which we referred. Is there not at, any rate, a small change in their attitude?

If the right hon. Gentleman refers to the debate on 31st October, 1962, he will see that my hon. Friend the Minister of State—then Under-Secretary of State—said:

"We scrutinise all requests from the political as welt as the strategic and economic aspects before they are authorised…and the possibility that a particular supply of arms may be used for measures of internal repression is taken into account."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st October, 1962; Vol. 666, c. 286.]

Is it not significant that there should be these attacks at the United Nations and in Trafalgar Square not only on South Africa's racial policy, but also on the entirely opposite Portuguese policy of total racial integration and intermarriage? Does this not suggest that what, in fact, is under attack are the sea routes round the Cape and the strategic interests of the Western Alliance?

I have mentioned the factors to be taken into consideration about South Africa. I was not discussing the question of the Portuguese territories, although I understand that they may be discussed first in the Security Council debate.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that the last Government statement on this issue was made on the day of the Whitsun Adjournment by the Minister of State, Board of Trade, who made no reference at all to scrutiny of the type the Lord Privy Seal has mentioned? Would the right hon. Gentleman at least state now that arms capable of internal use will be banned by this country?

I have made a very clear statement and have already quoted what was said by my hon. Friend on 31st October last. I have repeated it today, for it represents Government policy.

:The right hon. Gentleman has not made a clear statement. The word that the right hon. Gentleman has used is "scrutiny". What happens after scrutiny? Is he aware that time and again, during the past year, the President of the Board of Trade, who does not seem to have heard of this statement in October, has refused to interfere with shipments of arms which may be used for internal purposes in South Africa? Will the Lord Privy Seal now answer specifically, not as to whether there is scrutiny of the shipments, but whether there is a ban on all shipments for this purpose?

The situation is as I have described it. This factor is taken into account with all other factors in the scrutiny of every arms application which is made. The right hon. Gentleman knows the difficulty of making public information about individual arms items. That applies not only to South Africa, but to every other country at well. It is a general policy which has been followed by this and by every other Administration.

In reference to the Lord Privy Seal's original statement, whom does he think is threatening South Africa from the sea, or, for that matter, with a land invasion?

:We have certain agreements with South Africa about the sea routes, which were made some years ago. We adhere to those agreements and these arms are required for the defence of the sea routes.

In scrutinising these arms, will my right hon. Friend be careful not to allow any exports to take place which might be used against the people of the Yemen through the dropping of canister bombs?

That goes much wider than the question about South Africa.

If this scrutiny takes place how can the right hon. Gentleman justify the export to South Africa of which the South African Minister of Defence has boasted, of helicopters, tear gas, Saracen armoured cars, tanks, to say nothing of military strike aircraft—all of which can be, and are, used for internal repression?

:Several countries have been supplied with arms of this type, which are primarily for external defence. Aircraft are also required for the defence of the sea routes. Tear gas is used in many civil disturbances in many countries where there is no question of apartheid.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a possibility of the United Nations taking action about South-West Africa and that Her Majesty's Government are continuing to allow the export of arms to South Africa which may well be used against the decisions of the United Nations itself before very long?

In these circumstances, we had better await the debate and see what are the issues put before the Security Council by the 32 countries. It is right that we should hear the representations which they have to make. The whole question of South-West Africa is also to come before the United Nations in the comparatively near future and that is another factor in the situation.