asked the Postmaster- General if he is aware of the concern in the Longbenton Urban District Council area about the erecting of telegraph poles; and if he will consider the laying of underground cables for this purpose on new estates.

Yes, Sir. Underground cables are used on new estates when it is economic to do so, but, when the number of subscribers is small, it would be too expensive to provide underground cables all the way to the houses.

asked the Post master-General what is the maximum delay that a subscriber on a London exchange should expect to experience in dialling 100 at an off-peak period; and what instructions are given to operators in dealing with calls in cases when this delay has occurred.

In normal conditions most calls are answered within 10 seconds, but I am sorry that at off-peak periods when fewer operators are on duty the risk of delays from sudden rushes of traffic is greater than at the busier times of the day. Operators are instructed to be helpful and courteous, and to apologise where delays are known to have occurred.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary appreciate that it is very disturbing news that at off-peak periods when we are being encouraged to make telephone calls we are likely to experience long delays? Is he aware that although he promised me earlier this year that there would be a noticeable improvement in my own home telephone service on the Gulliver Exchange, I am regularly still subject to delays of up to five minutes? If this experience is shared by others, does not he think that it causes grave inconvenience and makes nonsense of his slogan which he is now advertising that "An evening call brings you together"?

I have no information to the effect that there are regularly lapses of up to five minutes. As I said, during peaks there are these difficulties, and, in fact, on the evening showing as against the day showing we find that during the day the particular exchange is a little quicker than the regional average and that in the evening it is a little slower. It is only a matter of seconds. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman must have struck some very bad periods of the day in order to have had this continuing problem. Nevertheless, we are looking at this problem and are doing everything possible to make certain that at whatever time of the day or night there is a call it will be attended to at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Postmaster-General in what circumstances applications for the placing of overhead telegraphic lines were forwarded recently by him to the borough of Gateshead.

The applications were made under the Telegraph Acts for consent to place five poles and wires in the streets of Gateshead in order to provide telephone service.

Is the Assistant Postmaster-General aware that Gateshead Borough and I myself are very appreciative that 300 and more telegraph poles have been removed during the last five years, but why does he not co-operate with the local authority in preserving the amenities of new estates, instead of putting in these ugly, wretched poles, only to remove them at a later date?

This is a problem which we are faced with every day. Where there is likely to be a large number of subscribers in the area it is obviously best to bury the whole of the cables, but it is important to remember that burying cables can cost as much as 10 times more than putting up poles. In this particular case there seems little likelihood of more than about seven subscribers in the next 20 years. This is a matter which we have to take into account, and much as we should like to help in this matter we feel at the moment that we shall have to carry these lines overhead.

asked the Postmaster- General what was the number of new telephones installed in the Blyth constituency during 1960, 1961, 1962, and at the nearest available date in 1963; how many remain on the waiting list; and what is the approximate waiting time for those on the list.

In 1960, 305; in 1961, 318; in 1962, 319; in the first half of 1963, 173.

I am grateful to the Assistant Postmaster-General for that reply and for the improvement which has been shown in the installation period over the past two or three years. Will he now make it known to my constituents that it is easier to have an installation now than it was two or three years ago, in order that many who were prevented then from making application can now be encouraged to do so?

I hope that this Question and Answer will be fully ventilated in the proper place in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. It will show his constituents that we are making a great deal of progress, and that the waiting list in the area at the moment represents a lower percentage than the national average.

I thank the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Postmaster-General what further action he has taken to meet the increasing demand for telephones in the Reading area.

I have increased the money available for the provision of local lines and subscriber circuits in the Reading area by 16 per cent. this year. I should have liked to do still more but competition for labour is so keen in the area that larger sums could not be absorbed. I am doing all I can to recruit more engineering staff, and I hope that next year I shall be able to spend substantially increased amounts on the provision of service in the area.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that very helpful reply. May I ask whether he would translate the percentage of 16 per cent. into money terms? Can he assure me that the plans for these extensions are already approved and that work is starting or is immediately about to start? Can he assure me that there should be some extra telephone receivers in the hands of subscribers during these next six months due to this work?

At the moment I cannot give my hon. Friend the assurance he asked for towards the end of his supplementary question, but the capital expenditure on local lines and subscribers' circuits will be over £1 million in the current financial year and that represents an increase of 16 per cent. The key to the difficulty in the Reading area is the shortage of trained manpower. I should like to make it clear to my hon. Friend that I have asked my Department to consider as a matter of urgency measures for recruiting more.

I thank my right hon. Friend.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that when a number is dialled the engaged signal comes through if all the junctions are busy between the two exchanges, and that this gives a false impression to the dialler who thinks that the telephone of the person being called is engaged; and what steps he will take in order to rectify the position.

I am sorry if the present practice sometimes leads to misunder- standing. But I do not think that the circumstances would justify the cost of providing an additional type of engaged signal to indicate that the intermediate plant was engaged, rather than the called person's line. I try, by the provision of additional plant, to keep to a minimum the number of instances where intermediate plant is engaged.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this is a very serious matter from the point of view of an individual who rings up his home, gets the engaged signal, thinks there is no one at home and is very worried as a result of it? Is it because the right hon. Gentleman has not sufficient cable available for new junctions, or what is the trouble? Why does he not supply sufficient junctions? Is he aware that on one occasion it took nearly two hours before anyone could get a reply?

The hon. Gentleman was kind enough to give me details of his complaint in a letter. Frankly, at the moment I do not understand it, because at the Malden exchange, to which I think he was referring, there are 800 junctions, and that means that there would have to be about 800 simultaneous telephone calls for this situation to arise. However, I have instructed my staff to carry out an investigation of the situation at Maiden, and I will communicate with the hon. Gentleman as soon as I can.

asked the Postmaster-General, in view of the increasing noise caused by heavy traffic on main roads, if he will reconsider his policy of erecting telephone kiosks at the side of main roads, and wherever possible move them to quiet sites; and if he will make a statement.

I try to site telephone kiosks where they can most conveniently be seen and used. Noisy situations are avoided where possible, but a compromise has sometimes got to be made between noise and accessibility. If my hon. Friend has a particular case in mind I will be glad to look into it.

Since I am asked for it, would my right hon. Friend send his experts to look at a kiosk which he has on the Louth-Grimsby main road, a road which is carrying heavier and heavier traffic? It makes it very difficult for elderly people who are hard of hearing. Will my right hon. Friend look into this? This is happening not only in my constituency but in other parts of the country.

The overriding consideration is the convenience of the public, but I will gladly send one of my people along to look into this case.

Does the Postmaster-General recognise that, quite apart from the problem of noise from a heavy volume of traffic proceeding along main roads, there is also the danger of parked vehicles on roads which are extensively used? Surely he ought to try to avoid congestion by siting telephone kiosks adjacent to main roads?

There is something in that point. There are, of course, all sorts of considerations to be taken into account. There is, for example, the consideration of wilful damage to kiosks, which is more prevalent where they are sited off main roads.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will now reconsider his decision to remove the public telephone kiosk at Harcombe, Sidbury, Devon; and what the distance is from there to the nearest public telephone which it is not his intention to remove in the foreseeable future.

No, Sir. I am sorry that I cannot justify the retention of this kiosk which is now used for only three or four calls a week. The nearest kiosk, which I am not proposing to remove, is just over a mile away.

Will not my right hon. Friend reconsider the whole of the Post Office's policy of withdrawing uneconomic telephones from the more isolated rural communities? Will he bear in mind that the telephone is the only link in an emergency with such a community, and that other Departments and authorities are making great efforts to bring services to the countryside—including electricity and water—even where it is uneconomic, in order to stop the drift from the land?

It is quite untrue that the Post Office is withdrawing large numbers of telephone kiosks from rural areas. In fact, the movement is in the opposite direction. In the case referred to by my my hon. Friend, the kiosk produces a revenue of about £4 a year and costs about £60 to maintain. I think that it is right to remove it in these circumstances, especially as more than 60 per cent. of the houses in the village are on the telephone.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it that it is the general view of the House that there is a very urgent necessity for the Post Office to consider the social needs of rural communities? To say that another telephone is only a mile away from the kiosk does not seem to meet the situation his hon. Friend has mentioned. Will he, therefore, review his policy because this service is urgently necessary in rural areas?

There is no need for a review of policy. Without fear of contradiction, I say that the Post Office pays far more regard to the social needs of people in scattered areas than any other department in public life.

asked the Postmaster-General how many telephone installation applications at the Oldham main exchange were outstanding for more than three months at the latest convenient date; and when he proposes to supply the necessary installations.

One hundred and fifty-five as at 30th June, 1963. All these applications are for residential telephones, and nearly all will be met by the end of this year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in one case a lady waited for three years for a telephone? Is he further aware that I have put to him a case where, despite strong professional reasons, a residential application must wait, apparently, until November? Will he see that these time-lags are cut down as quickly as possible?

The hon. Gentleman must remember that one gets to a point where there is a shortage of cables and exchange equipment. Until these major changes have taken place there is virtually a standstill. But a main underground scheme will be completed this month and the cable position will then be good, except for small sections. The exchange will also be extended in October. All this will put us in a much better position to satisfy the requirements of people who have been waiting for longer than we would have wished.

asked the Postmaster-General what additional income from the telephone services he estimates will arise from the expenditure of £250,000 in the current year on advertising specifically intended to encourage traffic; and what increase in profit this income will show.

As I said to the hon. Member on 17th July, this publicity campaign is a calculated commercial risk but if, as I hope, it produces extra revenue of about £1½ million, the profit will be £600,000.

When the right hon. Gentleman says that it is a calculated commercial risk, does not he think that he should also give us a little more of the background to his reasoning? Is he further aware that these figures are not justified in any way in "Post Office Prospects", which was published quite recently? Will he also say why the marginal rate of profit he has assumed on the extra telephone calls which will result from this expenditure is so very much different from the average rate, which would require another 6¼ million calls? How does he justify this expenditure?

I will answer the last point first. Quite clearly, if there were to be a large increase in telephoning during off-peak hours the cost of carrying the traffic would be relatively very small. Therefore, the profit would be very large. As to the rest of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, this is a matter of commercial judgment and I am sure my judgment will prove to be correct.

asked the Postmaster-General how many applicants in Wembley are still waiting for the telephone service; and what is the longest time for which any have waited.

I am glad to say that in Wembley no applications for telephones are held up by shortage of lines or equipment; there are 502 orders under enquiry or being me. The oldest application is dated December last year and that is held up awaiting the customer's instructions.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that encouraging information, may I ask him how long it will take to clear the backlog?

Only a matter of weeks.

asked the Postmaster-General what has been the change in the waiting list for telephones since 1951.

Since 1951 the waiting list for telephones has been reduced from 418,000 to 44,000.

I thank my right hon. Friend, but is he aware that the Bristol area still has some 16,000 subscribers on party lines? Will he take steps to see that more people are offered exclusive lines?

It is true that there has been an increase of about 750,000 throughout the country of people who have shared services, but our objective is to let everyone have either shared or separate service. But until we have sufficient lines it is not practical to do away with shared service altogether.

How near is the right hon. Gentleman this year to the target of connections?

There is a further question on that point. Broadly speaking, we are on target.

asked the Postmaster-General what has been the increase in the number of telephones since 1951; and how many new telephone subscribers have been connected in 1963.

On 31st March, 1951, there were about 5½ million telephones in this country. There are now 9 million. Nearly 225,000 lines have been connected in the first six months of this year.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that it shows an increase of some 70 per cent, and is very creditable? Can he say how the figures compare with those for other European countries?

The percentage increase in comparison with some European countries is low, but the 1951 base for European countries was very different from that for this country. We have more telephones than any other country with the single exception of the United States of America.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that even though he says that only 44,000 are on the waiting list, 3,600 have been waiting for a telephone connection for more than two years and that nearly 1 million people have shared line services, which conceals the waiting list of those who want single services? Is he further aware that he is evading this problem by agreeing to more shared lines and that in 1962 22 per cent. of all new residential connections were on shared lines? This is not much progress.

I am not evading anything. The telephone service has developed more in the last few years than at any time in our history. The capital moneys sunk into the service in the last four years have risen by as much as 50 per cent.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the total number on the waiting list for telephones in South Yorkshire in 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962, respectively.

At 31st March, 1958, the figure was 2,375. The corresponding figures in the subsequent years have been 1,482; 1,574; 1,690; and 1,039.

I admit that there has been an improvement in the last year. Can the hon. Gentleman explain why the numbers rose in the previous three years? What hope have people in South Yorkshire who are sharing lines? What hope is there of speeding up connections for trunk calls between South Yorkshire and London, which now take a long time?

Every day of the week we are installing new circuits all over the country. We obviously concentrate on areas where the need is greatest. At 31st March this year, the figures for which the hon. Member has asked were down to 977, so we are not making bad progress.

asked the Postmaster-General if he has now completed his review of applications for pay television experiments; which companies have been successful; what areas are to be recognised; and if he will make a statement.

The preliminary round of discussions with applicants who wish to be operators is now almost completed, and the detailed requirements are under discussion. Until, however, I have firm offers in regard to the location of areas of trials and of the conditions to be laid down I cannot determine finally what companies can be licensed, and the hon. Member will appreciate that mention of some areas and not others may be misleading and cause disappointment later on. I do not think that more than four or five companies at most, and some of these are consortia, can make the necessary facilities and resources available to mount the necessary operation.

Could the right hon. Gentleman, then, reveal to the House how many companies have so far applied? Is it not possible for him to give us an idea of what areas are under consideration and which are the likeliest areas to be provided with these pay television experiments? Secondly, may I ask him whether it will be possible to make a statement on this matter before the House rises for the Summer Recess? We do not want to go through the usual Summer Recess ritual of a Ministerial statement about a new television experiment without our being able to question him.

Altogether about 17 companies have evinced an interest in this experiment, but, as I said, probably not more than half a dozen at the most will actually participate. The areas have not been finally selected, but it is quite clear that London will be one of the areas, but we are anxious to get a cross-section of different localities throughout the country, I doubt whether it will be possible to make a further statement before the House gets up, but I will do so as soon as possible.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will stipulate that pay television licensees will only be allowed one channel for the purposes of experiments.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of 7th May.

Could the right hon. Gentleman extend that reply and give the House some assurance regarding the new development and restricting it to one channel? If the experiments are successful, is it his intention to keep pay television solely on one channel? Also, what length of time has he in mind for the experiment to take place?

The people who operate the pay television service will be obliged to put out both B.B.C. and I.T.A. programmes, and for the time being we have decided that they should use one additional channel for their own service. I think that is right for the present, but if experience indicates that more than one channel might be desirable at a later stage, we would propose to review the situation after perhaps a year or two of its operation. No period has been fixed for the length of the experiment, but the whole thing will be reviewed almost year to year to see how it develops.

When the right hon. Gentleman is considering increasing the number of channels available to television, will he take full account of any representations made by radio astronomers in this country and abroad about the limitation on frequencies available to them?

Certainly, Sir, but I do not think I have received any such representations during my tenure of office.

asked the Postmaster-General to what extent the terms of appointment of the Chairman of the Independent Television Authority require the holder of that post to retire from active politics.

The Chairman was given the normal memorandum of advice on political activities for the guidance of members of public boards, but in any case the question of political activity will not arise because he has told me that he has retired from politics altogether.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the precedent set and the problems created in putting a very active party politician in charge of a public medium of expression of opinion? That is the crucial problem. [Interruption.] It is different from the Coal Board. For instance, in times of national crisis there might be demands for a Government statement and Opposition counter-statement on matters of the moment. What real assurance can we have that a very active party politician will be utterly impartial in providing the right to the use of the air?

I think I did say that Lord Hill has told me that he has retired from politics altogether.

Does the right hon. Gentleman really believe it?

Naturally I accept his word. At the same time I take the point made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman). Of course, the supposition which, I think, he has at the back of his mind is that the Chairman of the Authority could influence either I.T.N. news or a programme contractor at a period of high political activity. Well, I really believe that it is quite inconceivable that any Chairman of the Authority would ever attempt to interfere in that sort of way.

Would my right hon. Friend consider putting the same curtailment of activities on the President of the Board of Film Censors?

I do not think that that quite arises on this Question.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that we have had previous experience of the Chairman of the Authority in a non-political post—when he was acting as secretary to the British Medical Association?

asked the Postmaster- General when he proposes to replace the unsatisfactory post office premises in Airdrie with new offices; where he pro poses to site them; and if he will make a statement.

I hope we shall start building a new post office in 1965 on a site in Buchanan Street. This is a smaller site than we should like, but there seems to be no prospect of our getting any other.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I am very grateful to him for the letter which I received today? While I recognise the apparent difficulties, which are considerable, in view of the highly unsatisfactory condition of the present post office arrangements in the town of Airdrie will he do his utmost to bring forward the starting date?

Now that we have decided on the site we shall lose no time in getting the job under way.

asked the Postmaster- General whether he will grant a licence for a sub-post office to serve the Carey Estate, Wareham.

I am sorry that we should not be justified in opening a sub-post office on this estate at present; but the matter will be kept under review in the light of the building development which I understand is to take place in the area.

Has the Assistant Postmaster-General really examined the problem? Does he realise that the estate lies a mile from Wareham, that the General Post Office has very serious parking problems, that a level crossing lies between the estate and the town of Ware ham and that there are more than 300 households on the estate, as well as two factories, and that there seems to me to be a very strong case indeed for the granting of a licence for a sub-post office on the estate?

As I said, there are all sorts of considerations to be taken into account in opening another office. As I have stated, this matter will be constantly under review in the light of the building development which we understand will take place there. But at the present moment we feel that opening a new office there would not necessarily mean any new business but would mean extra costs for doing the same amount of business.

What about service to the public?

This is a great problem that we have to face every day of the week in trying to balance the social need and duty of the G.P.O. with the need to run an efficient service.

In view of the considerations which my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Mr. Barnett) has brought to the notice of the House today, does not the Assistant Postmaster-General think that he ought to have some further inquiry made, because not only should he anticipate more business but surely the sense of service to the people who are now living there should also be paramount?

I am prepared to discuss with the hon. Gentleman the points that he has raised, but on the information that I have at the moment, it is a borderline case. As I have said, it will remain under constant review, but I shall be happy to discuss with the hon. Gentleman the points he has raised and have another look at the matter.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will reconsider his decision on the resiting of the Walton St. Mary sub-post office, Clevedon.

We have reconsidered this matter carefully but I regret that we should not be justified in reversing the decision.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the situation of the sub-post office, which necessitates a walk up a very steep hill during winter weather and at other times, is causing hardship for old people collecting their pensions but will also cause danger if we have another winter like the last one? Will he reconsider the matter?

As I told my hon. Friend, we have reconsidered this matter. It is important to remember that a sub-postmaster runs his business on an agency basis. When the previous sub-postmaster gave notice of termination of his office, we naturally invited applicants, and we believe that the present sub-postmaster and the present facilities will give better service than hitherto. That is the reason why we took this decision.

asked the Postmaster-General what proposals he has to improve the transmission of money through post offices.

We have no particular proposals in view at present.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, although the Dutch giro system has run at a loss for the first time this year, a system of transmitting money by having savings bank deposits increased would be both safer and cheaper than the existing method?

I can only refer my hon. Friend to my reply to an Adjournment debate on 4th March in which all the points were put forward. I said at the time that the door was not closed but that there were certain things which had to happen and that we had to be certain that this was going to be a real proposition before we were prepared to bring the scheme into operation.

As I am very interested in the question of the giro system, may I ask the hon. Member how much wider the door is open now than when I raised the matter on the Adjournment?

I think it is just about the same.

asked the Postmaster-General what action he is taking to eliminate delay in delivery of mail from the Sale, Cheshire, area.

I am sorry that vacancies for a few postmen in Sale are causing delay in the delivery of mail there. There is full employment in this area and we are not finding it easy to get the recruits we need.

I am equally sure that that is not an adequate answer. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am concerned with mail going from the Sale area? Is he satisfied with the transit arrangements of mail from Sale? Is he satisfied that there is proper co-ordination between British Railways and the Post Office in this connection?

We are in touch with British Railways to try to solve some of the difficulties in parcels traffic. This is part of a general discussion we are holding. But until now I had no evidence that outgoing mail services are unsatisfactory. However, I should like to discuss this with the hon. Gentleman to find out whether we can get to the bottom of this problem.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been many complaints, over a long period, from this part of Cheshire? On a number of occasions the hon. Member for Knutsford (Sir W. Bromley-Davenport) has raised this matter. How long are these inquiries to take?

Does my hon. Friend realise that the place in question is not really in the constituency of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Boardman) but in that of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade? I should like to ask the hon. Member for Leigh if he has consulted my right hon. Friend as a matter of common courtesy?

Order. As I understand the process, this appears to be an attempt by the hon. Member for Nantwich (Mr. Grant-Ferris) to ask another hon. Member a question. It is not in order.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will restore the second postal delivery on Saturdays.

No, Sir.

Will my hon. Friend say why not? Is he aware that it is increasingly difficult to ensure that a letter posted in the north of England or in Sale or Leigh at any time on Friday arrives in the Greater London area before Monday? What is he doing about this? Will he review this deteriorating part of the service?

I do not think that to make another delivery on Saturday would solve this problem. We are seeking to put right delays that occur and we are discussing the matter with British Railways. We believe that the cost involved in a second delivery on Saturday would not be justified. We must also take fully into account the interests of our staff who, after all, are just as important as any other staff anywhere else. We believe that we have reached about the right compromise of giving a good service while meeting the interests of our staff at weekends.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Postmaster-General how the experimental reorganisation of the parcel post service in East Anglia is working.

The reorganised services have so far worked very well indeed; and we have every reason to expect that they will continue to do so. Our customers, too, seem to be satisfied; for example, one large firm has told us that it intends to send considerable numbers of parcels by post which until now it has sent by other means.

I am very glad to hear that this experiment is working well. Will my hon. Friend see to it that as much of this traffic as possible continues to go on the railways, provided that the railways can make suitable adjustments to meet Post Office needs? Alternatively, if a great deal of this traffic has to be carried on the roads of East Anglia, will my hon. Friend weigh in with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to see that our East Anglian roads are improved a little so as to be able to carry it?

The whole point of the experiment is to try to make certain that we can use the railways to the best advantage, but also to make certain that customers sending parcels have them delivered in the fastest possible time. With this co-ordination of rail and road we can learn by this experiment and put it into operation over a wider area at some future time.

Will my hon. Friend appreciate that there is some suspicion that the result of the Beeching Plan combined with this scheme by the Post Office is designed to enable the Post Office to hog the lot of the parcel traffic, which formerly went by rail or other public transport? Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that he will see that where branch lines are closed down there is a proper co-ordination between the Post Office and the Ministry of Transport to ensure proper vehicles to carry parcels by road?

Yes, We have no intention of taking traffic away from anyone else. We are interested in giving as good a service in the transport of parcels and other mail as we can. We will naturally leave it to the customer to decide which service he prefers. We have no intention of running anybody else off the road.

How will the services be affected in East Lincolnshire when there are not any railways at all?

We should have to adapt ourselves to those conditions.

Apart from the service aspect of this matter, is the hon. Gentleman able to tell the House the costings of the road service per package or parcel as against the costings for the railway service? Will not this be a vital factor in his ultimate consideration?

I could not tell the hon. Member off the cuff what the differences are, but this will obviously always be a vital factor to the person posting the parcel.