asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury if he will make a statement on the work of the Dounreay scientific station indicating its practical contributions to industry to enable Scottish industry to keep ahead of industry elsewhere based on the advances and practical applications of science during the last twelve months.

The Atomic Energy Authority's establishment at Dounreay is primarily concerned with the development of fast reactors, the commercial application of which lies some years ahead. Science and technology in Scotland have, however, materially benefited from the existence of Dounreay, and, in particular from its relations with the Scottish Universities, the Royal College of Science and Technology, the National Engineering Laboratory at East Kilbride, and with industry.

In view of the undoubtedly great contributions which Dounreay is making to the application of science, will the Minister see that those contributions get more publicity than they are getting at present with a view to ensuring that Scotland, which at present generates some 30,000 new jobs every year, will increase that number to 35,000 or 40,000 new jobs a year?

:The hon. and learned Member is quite right as to the justifiably high reputation of Dounreay which, as the House knows, leads the world in fast reactor techniques. I will certainly consider what the hon. and learned Gentleman says.

:Does the Minister realise that some of us who had a chance of visiting Dounreay in September and saw something of its work of national importance still share the anxieties of my hon. and learned Friend concerning the practical application locally? For example, does the Minister appreciate that the magnificent facilities for training apprentices in Dounreay were being only half-used when we visited the establishment? Is this not something worth looking into from a local point of view?

:I should like to look into the point about apprentices. As regards the more general interconnection of technology in Scotland, I think that the placing by the authority of research contracts with the Scottish universities is useful to both.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury what is the ratio of technical assistants to scientifically qualified staff in Government scientific establishments.

The ratio is 3.5 technical assistants to one member of the scientific officer class.

Is this not very much more generous than the ratio of assistants to university research workers? Do the Government accept the Robbins recommendation regarding thevery much more prominent part that university research can play in general research, and, if so, what are the Government doing about providing extra technical assistants to university research departments?

This Question relates to Government scientific establishments, and, as the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, the average conceals within it fairly wide divergencies in accordance with the nature of the work. With regard to universities, it may well be that we shall have an opportunity of discussing them later this afternoon.

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that it is not only numbers that matter in this but also the quality of the scientists?

I fully agree, and it is our intention to maintain the high quality of the scientific officer class and their assistants.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury if arrangements will be made for the establishment in South Wales of a research unit of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, or a unit of comparable status in any proposed reorganisation of the Department, in order to co-ordinate all research under this heading, to make available to industry the services of specialists employed by the unit, and to enable the speedy application to industry of lessons learned and methods evolved by the unit.

No, Sir. The many facilities of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research are already available to Welsh industry through the services of the Department's branch office in Cardiff.

I am aware of what was said in an Answer of 23rd July last by the then Parliamentary Secretary for Science, but does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that no apportionment of funds for this purpose represents a reversal of forward thinking? Will he reconsider the decision in order that industry in South Wales could benefit by the measures outlined in the last part of my Question?

No, Sir, I do not think so. The D.S.I.R. laboratories operate on a national basis and serve the nation as a whole. I think that Welsh industry gets more advantage from having the service of the whole national set-up through the D.S.I.R. branch office in Cardiff than it would from onenecessarily specialised establishment in the district.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury what steps are being taken to improve industrial design techniques; and if he will make a statement.

:Action is being taken on all the 14 main recommendations of the Committee on Engineering Design appointed by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, whose Report was published in July, 1963.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, even now, there is a tremendous infiltration of foreign machines, principally from Germany and America, in the factories of north Lanarkshire and other parts of the west of Scotland? Does not he realise that we have the necessary skill and ingenuityin this country but we do not have the industrial designers? Is it not shameful that two out of every three scientists and technological graduates in Scotland are leaving the country to find work, when they could be usefully employing their skills in designing machines to meet the needs of our manufacturers?

:I would not go so far as the hon. Gentleman in some of the things he says. The fact that action is being taken on all these recommendations does indicate the importance which the Government attach to the subject as a whole.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in going into this matter, try to impress upon all industrialists concerned that increasing standardisation of many of the sub-units which go into consumer durables would help considerably in improving industrial design?

Up to a point, there is a good deal in what the hon. Gentleman says, and I take note of it.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury if an increase will now be made in the staff of geologists and pedologists in the Road Research Laboratory and at the disposal of Departments which need their expert advice.

No, Sir. I am advised that the number of geologists and experts in soil mechanics employed at the Road Research Laboratory is adequate to deal with the problems which arise. The advice of the Laboratory is readily available to those Departments which need it.

In view of the experience, sometimes costly experience, gained by the Government in the construction of the M.1 and M.6 motorways, and in view of the recent statement of the Minister of Transport himself about the need for more research in the construction of roads, does the Chief Secretary really suggest that the present very small and, I believe, overworked staff at the Road Research Laboratory is adequate to undertake this fundamental research?

That question, of course, goes well beyond the original Question about the sizeof the technically qualified staff at the Road Research Laboratory. I am satisfied that that staff is adequate and available to the Departments which desire to use it.

But is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Transport was referring to the need for fundamental research, which implies geological surveys and the advice of more soil experts on the construction of motorways? Will he pay special attention to this point?

I have some past experience of precisely that matter and fully share, therefore, the hon. Gentle- man's view of the importance of getting the best technical advice generally on the construction of motorways in relation to the land over which they pass. But that does not alter the point which arises on the Question, that, so far as the Road Research Laboratory is concerned, we are satisfied that it is adequately and properly staffed, and, if I may add a word from past personal experience, renders extremely good service to this country.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to what extent the Ministry of Science has initiated, or participated in, scientific research on techniques of storing moist grain in sealed silos for livestock feeding; what funds the Ministry has directed to such research or made available to other bodies;how many scientists and technologists have been employed in this research; and what results have been achieved.

Research in the air-tight storage of damp grain was undertaken for several years at the Pest Infestation Laboratory. Results were summarised in the Report of the Agricultural Research Council for 1959–60, Cmnd. 1362. Related investigations are being undertaken at the Rowett Research Institute, the results of which are not yet available. It is not practicable to state the separate cost of this research in money and manpower.

The Minister has not stated how much of this research has been undertaken and financed from State resources.Is he aware of the feeling among many people that inadequate manpower and resources have been given to this project and that many farmers are impatiently awaiting a technical decision by the Government to approve the installation of these very important silos?

:As the hon. Gentleman will find when he has time to study it, my main Answer brings out that work is being undertaken at this moment at the Rowett Research Institute. The reason why I cannot give the figures of cost is that the time of both the manpower and the institutions concerned is, of course, engaged on many other projects also and any attempt to break it down would be wholly arbitrary and probably misleading.

asked the ChiefSecretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the appointment of a new chairman of the Atomic Energy Authority, an outside committee will be appointed to consider the general balance of the work undertaken by the Authority and the desirability of its devoting such a large proportion of its resources to problems of electricity generation.

No, Sir; my noble Friend the Minister for Science is satisfied that the Authority's civil programme properly reflects the importance of the various civil applications of nuclear energy.

Will the attention of the new chairman be drawn to this, since there is uneasiness about it and the showing on marine reactors has not been very satisfactory?

I share my hon. Friend's interest in the possibility of evolving a satisfactory marine reactor, and I shall convey what he says to my noble Friend.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury what steps he is taking to enable the Building Research Station to promote, more effectively, progressive ideas in building.

:The Building Research Station devotes about 20 per cent, of its effort to promoting the wider adoption of research results in building design and construction. The total resources available to the Station are to be further increased next year by 6 per cent. This increase will be mainly applied to operational and economic aspects of its work the results of which should be of immediate value to the building industry.

:Are there not severe difficulties in getting the new ideas into the building industry? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider something similar to the National Agricultural Advisory Service, with officers working in the field and spreading new ideas in that way?

:I am inclined to agree with the hon. Gentleman that there has been a time-lag in the passing of new ideas through the industry, but I think that the new Directorate of Public Building Research in the Ministry of PublicBuilding and Works will be able to help to close the gap.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury what action it is proposed to take in the light of the Trend Committee's recommendation that the exchange of personnel between the Ministry of Science, the headquarters of the research agencies, and the stations operated by the agencies, should be facilitated.

As my noble Friend said in his Foreword to the Trend Committee Report, the Government areconsulting the bodies affected by the recommendations before taking decisions.

When is it likely that a decision will be reached on Trend?

The Trend Report contains a number of recommendations. I should not like to put a particular date on each of them or the sum total.

In view of the Minister's assurance that the relevant bodies are being consulted, may I ask if he can give a further assurance that this process wil not be hurried, since we have already heard from some of the civil servants concerned that they are being asked to give their views on certain subjects within a matter of days when they had got the impression from the introduction to the Report that there would at least be weeks in which to consider their views?

There will certainly be no undue haste. On the other hand, we want to get on with this important matter with reasonable dispatch.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this Committee has been sitting for about two years and that to be asked to give an answer in 12 days is somewhat exacting for people whose future may very well be concerned?

I do not know where my hon. Friend gets the 12 days from. As I said a few moments ago, there is no likelihood of any decision being arrived at in that sort of period. I can assure the House that we want—this is the reason why we are delaying a decision—all concerned to have proper opportunity to put forward their views. However, I hope that they will do so expeditiously.

In view of the Minister's assurance, which of course, I accept, will he bear in mind that I have here a letter complaining that civil servants have been told that they must get their comments inbefore 21st November? This seems to be a short time, in view of the general impression created in the introduction that everybody would be consulted. May we now be given the further assurance that this was, perhaps, overdoing it and that they really willhave more time than that?

I cannot possibly give an assurance in respect of a letter which I have not seen. I do not know from whom it comes, to whom it is addressed, or the circumstances. If the hon. Gentleman will send it to me, I shall be happy to investigate it. I can give no answer off the cuff now.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Treasury what action has been taken as a result of the recommendation of the Feilden Committee onEngineering Design that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research should invite the professional institutions to prepare and issue design manuals or data sheets similar to those already prepared by the Royal Aeronautical Society, that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research laboratories and the industrial research associations should be required to give active support in their respective fields, that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research should consider making grantsto the professional institutions to allow them to employ the necessary expert technical staff for this purpose, and that the data sheets should be available for sale to non-members.

The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has drawn the attention of the professional institutions to this recommendation. The Department expects to receive their detailed proposals shortly and has the power to make grants in support of suitable schemes.

Since Feilden reported in July, when is "shortly"?

As soon as reasonably practicable.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, if he will schedule Woolwich as an area for substantial office development.

:I am considering the general question of office centres to relieve central London, and I have informed the Borough Council that I will bear in mind its view that Woolwich would be suitable as one of the choices.

Will the Minister bear in mind that Woolwich is ideally suited for this kind of development and that there is an urgent need for more people to workin the borough instead of crowding the trains into central London? Why does he encourage office building in places like Croydon and not in Woolwich?

The places mentioned in the White Paper were given only as examples. I must continue discussions with the planning authorities before coming to any further decisions which can be taken only in the light of the South-East study as a whole.

Did not the Minister yesterday give the House the impression that the Woolwich Arsenal site was one of the few available sites in London on which he proposed to build houses?

That is of interest to Woolwich, but it is not related to the Question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what progress has been made by the Hampshire County Council in the rehabilitation of the 157 families of gypsies, didicois, and other travellers known to be usually resident in the county; how many sites are contemplated; what is the estimated cost; in what way rehabilitation will be encouraged; how long it is estimated the problem will require special measures; and if the centres will be under the control of district councils or the county council.

:Four sites are envisaged; one has been obtained and negotiations are proceeding for a second. The estimated cost of laying out and equipping the first site is £20,058. The sites will be under the control of the county council as welfare authority. Questions on rehabilitation do not fall within my right hon. Friend's responsibilities.

:That is great news. Will the Parliamentary Secretary consider in due course sending to other county councils details of Hampshire's enlightened policy so that we in this country can really begin to criticise with some right the conduct of human relations in lands overseas?

I will certainly consider that. I am glad that the hon. Member agrees with me that this is an enlightened and humane approach.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that Dorset also has this problem and that the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) is doing a very good job of work in this respect?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the undertakings given by the Kent County Council in July, 1962, to provide 10 sites for gypsies and other travellers in Kent, if he will give details of the progress made and the provision that will be available for them this winter; and what measures are being introduced for the rehabilitation of these people with special regard to children and teenagers.

Two local authority sites for gypsies and other itinerants have already been established in Kent. Work on a third is progressing and it may be completed in time for use this winter. Applications for planning permission to use two further sites are now before my right hon. Friend. The county council is continuing its search for other suitable sites in order to attain the 10 sites which it considers desirable in the county. More permanent sites will be available for these people this winter than in the past and the number of sites should steadily increase.

:That is not so good. Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that the Kent County Council opposed my application for the Cobham site in July, 1962, on the ground that it was unnecessary? Will he also bear in mind that this is the second winter that men, women and children are still being pushed backwards and forwards on the grass verges of the main trunk roads with no hope, evenat Christmas, of coming within the law? Would the hon. Gentleman therefore press the Kent authorities to get a move on in this respect?

I share the hon. Member's disappointment, but I hope that the House will appreciate the difficulties. My right hon. Friend and, to a large extent, the county council can only persuade the district councils, but I am satisfied that they are really trying. I hope that we shall have the 10 sites in the not too distant future.

May I urge my right hon. Friend the Minister, when he considers these planning applications, to bear in mind the fundamental fact that gypsies and other travellers no longer earn their honest living in the countryside but on the fringes of urban society and to ensure that theseproposed sites are put in places where they can earn an honest living and not resort to petty thieving?

:I am sure that the House will appreciate that we must wait until the applications come before us. When they do we will consider them in the light of all the planning considerations, as we do with other planning applications.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will make a statement on theprogress of the Allen Committee looking into hardship caused by the recent rate revaluation.

:The Committee has made good progress in analysing the information already available and is treating the whole inquiry as a matter of urgency. Its field survey is now almost complete, but it will take some months to analyse the results, and the Committee has still to receive much of the evidence for which it has asked.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that there are people in real and acute distress over this matter? Will he continue to act as expeditiously as he can in this respect?

:Yes, Sir, but my hon. Friend will be aware that the Gracious Speech contained proposals the contents of which, when published, will, I am sure, be examined with interest by my hon. Friend.

:Is the Minister now saying that he proposes to take no action at all about relieving sufferers from the rating system until this Committee has finally reported?

No. It is well known, I think, that the Gracious Speech contains some interim proposals, but I stress that they are interim proposals only.

:Will the Bill mentioned in the Gracious Speech be published before the Allen Committee has reported?

The Bill will be published fairly soon. The Allen Committee's Report will not be available until fairly well on into next year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Govern- ment and Minister for Welsh Affairs what action he has so far taken to deal with hardship in rate demands arising out of revaluation.

:The Allen Committee has been appointed to assess the impact of rates on householders with special regard to circumstances likely to give rise to hardship. It will be reporting next year. As an interim measure, I shall be introducing a Bill shortly to give a measure of relief to householders suffering hardship as a result of exceptional rate increases.

Is it not a fact that my right hon. Friend is in communication with the county councils and county boroughs asking whether they will be prepared to assess hardship under his new Bill? Will he give a firm assurance that in the assessment of this hardship, people living above National Assistance will be eligible—that is to say, people in the range of those living on small fixed incomes, in whom I am particularly interested? May I have that specific assurance now?

As has traditionally been the case, local authorities are consultedin strict confidence on legislation which might affect them. I deeply deplore it, as I know they would, if any breach of confidence has occurred in this case. As regards the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I must advise her to await the Bill. Obviously, however, since people who benefit from National Assistance are covered already against increases in rates, legislation is bound to deal with the sort of people she has in mind.

If and when this much-needed relief is granted, will the cost be borne by other ratepayers in the same local authority district, by ratepayers in the country as a whole or by the Exchequer?

The hon. Member must wait and see.

My hon. Friend said earlier that he expected the Report of the Allen Committee next year. Can we expect to have it early in the new year? My constituents who have been hard hit by the revaluation are vitally interested in this Report.

No. There is no hope of an early report from the Allen Committee. My hon. Friend must wait for the interim measure which is proposed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects to announce a decision regarding the construction of a flood barrier across the River Thames.

:It will not be possible to reach a final decision until the consulting engineers have completed their current investigations. The report is expected early in the new year.

:Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the deep anxiety in the Thames area, particularly today, about the risk of flooding, with all the damage and destruction that that would cause? Is he further aware that last March his Ministry told the West Ham Council that consulting engineers were working on the effect of a flood barrier on river conditions and that arrangements would be made to consult die interested authorities about finance and administration, but that not a word further has been heardin the last seven months? Is this another illustration of the Government waiting for election year before doing something long overdue?

I am sure that the hon. and learned Member would not wish to push any Government into a hasty decision ona matter of such very great technical difficulty. If we are to spend this sum of money, it is clear that we should make proper investigations. As I understand it, the only thing which has held up the consulting engineers' report is the requirement, which has raised technical difficulties, that there should be a minimum opening of 1,400 feet. However, I assure the hon. and learned Member that as soon as the report is to hand there will be the further consultations promised.

Is it not the case that these inquiries have been going on for three and a half years, since the last time the Thames overflowed its banks? Is not this delay quite intolerable, and is the Minister aware that he will be called upon to answer for it?

We should get the facts right. The steering committee was set up in July, 1961, and reported in April, 1962. It was on its recommendation that the consulting engineers were called in and asked to report.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs the reasons which led to his decision to propose the name of Bromley for Borough No. 19.

In the absence of local agreement, it appeared to me that the best name for this London borough would be that of its main shopping, commercial and administrative centre.

:Is this not a very misleading Answer that the Minister has given? Is he not well aware that the view of the vast majority of inhabitants in Borough No. 19 was that the name Ravensbourne should have been selected? Does he think that he has made a case for rejecting these views which have been expressed to him by every local authority in the area except Bromley?

Except Bromley and part of Chislehurst and Sidcup. Inthis invidious business about names, I am trying to use the objective factors of where the main centre of administration, shopping and use is situated, and that is what led me to the name Bromley in this case.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that by no means all the inhabitants of Orpington would want him to change his decision and that many are very happy with the name Bromley for the new borough?

indicated assent.

Mr. Paul Williams. Question No. 19.

By the nod which the Minister gave in answer to that last supplementary question—

Order. I called Mr. Paul Williams.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many local authorities have decided to curtail their smoke control programmes because of the uncertainty of supplies of adequate and reasonably priced smokeless fuels.

My right hon. Friend knows that some local authorities areworried about smokeless fuels. He hopes, however, that before coming to any decision about their smoke control programmes they will await the statement he expects to make soon.

Is it not most unsatisfactory that the inability of the Minister to guarantee adequate supplies of reasonably priced, good smokeless fuel is holding up some local authority smoke control programmes? Since we are already in the smog season and the ending of this atmospheric pollution is vital, will the Minister speed upthis review and deal with it as a matter of extreme urgency?

:Yes, of course, we regard it as urgent. We must, however, consult the local authority associations and the Clean Air Council, as in other matters. But any question of guaranteeing fuel is not a matter for my right hon. Friend. All I can tell the hon. Lady at the moment is that the conclusions are that we shall have to make increased use of appliances such as stoves and under-floor draught fires using other forms of fuel.

:Is not my hon. Friend aware that the Liverpool local authority, for example, alleges that it is being held up in the development of its smokeless zone proposals because of inadequacy of fuel supplies and is receiving no encouragement whatever from my right hon. Friend's Department?

:If my hon. Friend will write to me about that, I will look into it. Certainly, Liverpool is not one of the few local authorities whose names I have been given as being worried on this score.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is eight years since we were promised the Bronowski bullets by the Coal Board and that millions of £s of public money have been poured into the Coal Board to produce premium smokeless fuels? Should not my hon. Friendrefer this entire matter to the Minister of Power with a request to kick the pants of the Chairman of the Coal Board?

I know of nobody better than my hon. Friend for kicking pants. I will leave it to him.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the increasing use of plastic pipes for plumbing purposes, what steps he will take, by reviewing building bye-laws or other means, to ensure that the practice of earthing electricity equipment to the water pipes of domestic houses is discouraged as being dangerous.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what reports he has received in respect of danger from the usage of plastic pipes in houses.

I have seen recent Press reports of a case in which electric shock was apparently caused because the electrical system of the house was earthed to a plastic water pipe. My right hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Power are in touch with the water and electricity industries to concert the action to be taken against risks of this kind.

:Will the hon. Gentleman let us know when he expects to have a report concerning this matter? The position is rather serious. Will he urge that the report should be made as quickly as possible so that action can be taken?

The hon. Member appreciates, I am sure, that the main question here is education. Earthing to metal waterpipes isperfectly satisfactory. I promise the hon. Gentleman that we will push on with this as a matter of urgency.

:Have any inquiries been made, quite apart from Press reports, regarding this material, both as to its durability, on the one hand, and its liability to prevent electrical leaks, on the other hand?

I understand that from the viewpoint of durability, there are no difficulties. It is, however, recognised that it is not a conductor and that it breaks the earth conducting system. What is important is that we should reach a situation that, when this material is put into an existing system, people affected will be warned of the likely consequences.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will consider publishing as a White Paper the Report he has received from the Committee on Depopulation in Mid-Wales.

Yes, Sir. The Report will be published by the Stationery Office as soon as possible.

As the Report has been in the Minister's hand since June and this is the sixth Report in the last 10 years dealing with rural depopulation in Mid-Wales, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to indicate the next steps which he proposes to take?

:I have already written to the Chairman of the Committee which published the Report indicating my first reactions, and consultations are now taking place between the Welsh Office and the Committee which produced the Report.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the nature of the consultations he has had with the West Glamorgan authorities about further surveys for suitable land to build a reservoir, thus avoiding interference with living communities and good agricultural land.

It is for the West Glamorgan authorities to decide what surveys they should make of possible reservoir sites and I have had no consultation with them on this.

Is the Minister aware that there is an alterna- tive scheme which would satisfy all the requirements of West Glamorgan and would not involve the flooding of good agricultural land or threaten any village communities and would, therefore, arouse no opposition? Would he not use his influence with the West Glamorgan authorities at least to investigate this site before proceeding with the Gwendraeth Fach scheme?

I believe that the West Glamorgan authorities have already investigated a number of sites, though I do not know whether they have investigated the particular site die noble Lady has in mind. But certainly whether or not they have investigated all the suitable sites would be very much a matter to be taken up by me if any inquiry were held into an actual proposition by them to build a reservoir anywhere.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he proposes to make orders under the Water Resources Act, 1963, to set up river authorities for the appropriate areas.

:My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and I expect to make orders fixing theconstitution of the river authorities in the summer of 1964, and to bring them into existence in the autumn so that they may exercise their functions from 1st April, 1965.

Does the Minister not really think that the whole purpose of the Water Resources Act, to plan resources for large areas, will be undermined if great schemes of this kind are allowed to proceed even before the Act is in operation?

We really have no power, nor would it be right, to defer essential investigations carried out by water authorities in preparation for making proposals to me for schemes, but when it comes to making actual proposals I will certainly bear in mind the purposes and principles of the Act.

Would the Minister consider not supporting any Private Bill from a water undertaking till the Act's provisions have been put into operation?

That really is a different question.

asked the Minister ofHousing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many applications from metropolitan borough councils for compulsory purchase orders are now under attention; and what average length of time elapses before he announces his decision on such applications.

:Sixty-four orders made by metropolitan borough councils are before me. Twelve were made under the Housing Act, 1957, on grounds of excessive rent. The average time from the end of the objection period to decision for orders of this kind is 13 weeks. The rest are of kinds—mainly slum clearance—for which the average time may be taken as 32 weeks.

:A very long time, but in view of the fact that the new policy of publicly acquiring large areas announced last night is likely to involve bigger and better compulsory purchase orders, would the Minister take steps and give serious consideration to expediting the long-drawn-out procedures, especially in cases of slum properties, to which, I have no doubt, he attaches considerable importance? Will he also circularise local authorities to let them know what exactly his newly announced policy on public ownership really means?

The hon. Gentleman really must be content with the Answer to the Question on theOrder Paper. I do not think the House would wish to speed up the process of slum clearance in any way to endanger the rights of all interests involved to be heard before decisions are made.

asked the Minister of Housing andLocal Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what powers he intends to give local authorities to exercise planning jurisdiction with re- gard to the number of betting offices in their areas.

None, Sir. It is for the licensing justices to exercise any necessary control over the number of betting offices in their area.

Is the Minister aware that many local authorities are very alarmed at the growing number of betting offices and their lack of planning powers to control them?Since the Minister has rejected the instrument of the Use Classes Order as inappropriate for this purpose, would he discuss with local authorities their difficulties in this respect, and give them proper planning powers?

The provisions of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act make it clear that justices can refuse a licence on the ground that the grant would be inexpedient having regard to the demand for the time being in the locality for the facilities afforded by the betting office. This is the function of the licensing justices, and it is not part of the planning authorities' function to duplicate that of the licensing justices.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is satisfied with the extent to which, in areas of housing shortage, local authorities are exercising their powers under Section 26 of the Public Health Act, 1961, relative to defective premises; and if he will make a statement.

:I do not know the extent to which local authorities are using these powers, but if the hon. Member would like me to look into a particular case I would be glad to do so.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware thatin constituencies like mine the gravest problem arises from the disrepair of terraced houses which are many years old and approaching the end of their useful existence, and that there is a reluctance to expend money on the repair of houses of that character when, perhaps, before long they will have to be demolished and cleared? Bearing that in mind, will the hon. Gentleman recognise the importance of the provisions of the Section referred to in my Question and circularise local authorities inviting them to make greater use of their powers, not necessarily in respect of a particular case, but as a matter of general policy?

I accept the hon. and learned Member's argument, but I have no evidence that local authorities are not doing that. I think that there are cases where there is a shortage of staff, about which we are endeavouring to help, but my right hon. Friend's powers to intervene in these matters are very limited.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what progress has been made with the introduction of factory-made houses.

My Department knows of some 20 systems which offer good possibilities for building factory-made houses, as distinct from flats. About half of these will be contributing in quantity to next year's programme of local authority housing. The others are in the prototype stage.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I wish I could have heard his Answer, the obstruction coming, naturally,, from the Opposition? Can my right hon. Friend tell me how many orders have been placed thus far and whether he would consider the possibility of selecting one, two, three or more towns to carry out an experiment in this field so as to get the long runs which yesterday he said were necessary?

:Orders to the tune of several thousand houses, as opposed to flats, have been placed and will be under construction during the coming 12 months. My right hon. Friend the Minister ofPublic Building and Works is using his investment powers to secure longer runs even than any local authority, although several very long runs have been ordered by local authorities in these systems.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that theMinister of Public Building and Works yesterday mentioned a couple of companies which had been approved in this connection? Is it not rather unfair to mention a couple without mentioning the rest? Will not my right hon. Friend consider the possibility ofcirculating a list of the companies which are approved in this field?

:My Department is always ready to advise local authorities and private industry of the relative position of each of the systems under development. My right hon. Friend yesterday was, I think, blowing a mild trumpet for the Government's own prototype which is the 5M house.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is satisfied that powers are available to recover public funds advanced to a housing association in the event of the housing association erecting flats that cannot be let because of high rents; and if he will make a statement.

I do not approve schemes under Section 7 of theHousing Act, 1961, unless I am satisfied about the demand for flats or any other dwellings at the rents involved. But substantial powers are available to me both under the mortgage agreement an association has to make with me, and under my statutory power to give directions about the administraiton of an approved scheme and the disposal of assets provided under it.

Is it not clear to the Minister that there are financial responsibilities incurred by the sponsors of housing associations, and is henot aware that in South Wales he is in fact creating funds to endow land speculators who are shedding land at fantastic prices in South Wales for housing associations? Since many of the members who are sponsoring housing associations are linked with landowners, would the Minister not take further precautions to ensure that we do no get high-priced land for flats at high-priced rents in South Wales?

No. I reject all of that. My Department, which is experienced in these matters, takes infinite pains to check the competitive nature of the land price, the building scheme, the building costs and the market for the accommodation before any scheme is approved. The protection for the public money is ample.