asked the Minister of Aviation if he is aware that air flights between Scotland and London are few, uncertain, unpunctual in starting and arriving, and lack co-ordination with flights from abroad so that travellers miss their connections; and if he will take steps, by legislation and general direction, to rectify this.

No, Sir.

Will the Minister say why his Ministry is no longer "Civil Aviation"? Does he realise that this uncertainty and unpunctuality which is complained of in my Question is bad for business and contrary to the expressed policy of the Government to foster trade, industry, commerce and employment in Scotland? What does he propose to do about this? Will he insert the word "Civil" once more into his title?

I confess I am rather surprised by—if I may so call it—the ingratitude of the hon. and learned Member. I understand that British European Airways have just laid on a daily service from Aberdeen to London and return.

Why return?

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he has yet decided which engine is to be used in the AW 681 military transport aircraft.

I hope to be able to make an announcement shortly.

:It is months now since the right hon. Gentleman made a statement about this aircraft, and is he aware that since that time there have been doubts first of all as to whether Bristol Siddeley would supply the engine or whether Rolls-Royce should supply the engine? May we be told whether the aircraft is to be cancelled, or whether it is just that the right hon. Gentleman cannot make up his mind about the right engine?

:I hope to make an announcement shortly, as I said, but let me assure the hon. Member that the delay will in no sense retard the development of the aircraft itself.

:Can my right hon. Friend inform the House whether this aircraft is still planned to have vertical take-off capacity?

As I have said, I think on more than one occasion, in the House, it will be so designed as to be capable of being developed with vertical take-off capacity.

Bearing in mind that the operational requirement for this particular aircraft was made three years ago, is not this delay particularly insupportable?

There is no delay in the development of the aircraft but merely a delay in the announcement of my decision.

:Surely, if the aircraft is to fly it has got to have an engine. If the Minister has not made up his mind about the engine, when will he?

The hon. Gentleman misunderstands the point. The delay in announcing a decision about the aircraft will not delay the time in which the aeroplane is introduced into service.

asked the Minister of Aviation why he has directed the Air Transport Licensing Board not to hear an application by British European Airways for a new route from Manchester to Genoa.

:I directed the Board in accordance with Section 2(3) of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960. I did so because the air service proposed by British European Airways would, in my opinion, involve the negotiation with the Italian Government of rights which it would be inexpedient to seek at the present time.

:The Minister has merely quoted the wording of Section 2(3) in his reply. Are not we entitled to an explanation of why it is inexpedient for these rights to be sought at this time, and does not he think that this decision will have a very harmful effect on the Corporation which is responsible for carrying the British flag to all the countries of Europe?

No, Sir, that is not my view; and had it been my view I should have decided otherwise.

:How often has the Minister used these particular powers on other occasions? Has there not been something of a scandal about the route to Genoa which, indeed, has cost the public certain amounts of money in the preference given to an independent airline? Will the Minister now say what would be the financial effect if B.E.A. got the right to run to Genoa in order that we may understand what the nation is losing as a result of present policy?

:I think that these powers have been used on more than one occasion where international agreements have been concerned, but I should like to check that. The hon. Gentleman has asked me the question without notice. I am satisfied that it would be prejudicial to our aviation position at this moment to seek further rights from the Italian Government. This is a judgment which I have to make. It would clearly be unwise for me to go into detail on why an international negotiation would at this moment not be expedient.

asked the Minister of Aviation why private civil airlines in Great Britain fix a limit of £3,000 compensation to dependants of passengers killed in accidents when British European Airways' limit is £6,000.

Under existing legislation, United Kingdom air carriers are generally entitled to limit their liability in the event of death or injury to some £3,000 per passenger. There is, however, nothing to stop them voluntarily making settlements in excess of this figure.

:Will the hon. Gentleman use his influence to see that they come up to the B.E.A. figure? Is it not grossly unfair to the travelling public that private airlines should pay less compensation than is paid by a nationalised airline?

I agree that the figure of £3,000 is too low, and I hope that the example set by B.E.A. will be followed by other airlines; but I must point out that the delay involves matters under The Hague Protocol and the Warsaw Convention. There is a quite complicated legal reason why we have not yet settled this question.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the progress of the TSR 2.

asked the Minister of Aviation (1) what was the result of the efforts of Her Majesty's Government to sell the TSR 2 to Australia;

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the TSR 2 aircraft and anticipated operational date in Royal Air Force squadrons.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the cost and late delivery of the TSR 2 aircraft, and on the difficulties in connection with its supply to Australia.

asked the Minister of Aviation what is the breakdown between development and production expenditure on the TSR 2 within the overall stated limit of £400 million; and whether the limit is to be revised.

:The TSR 2 aircraft is making good progress. It is expected to fly early next year. As already stated, we plan to introduce this aircraft into service in the mid-1960s.

:Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this aircraft is proceeding according to plan and that the Government maintain their intention to introduce it as an operational aircraft? Further, can he comment on the attitude of a number of hon. and right hon. Members opposite to the effect that, while believing in the advocacy of technological research, they are not willing to back it in this particular case? Finally, can he say how many people, of what grades, have their employment involved in the production of this aircraft?

Yes, I can give an assurance that it is going forward as planned. When it flies early next year, it will be only about four years from the time when the contract was first placed, which is a very creditable achievement. As to employment, I can say that, including the airframe, the engine and the electronics and equipment side, the jobs of 15,000 to 20,000 people must be involved. As regards statements made by spokesmen of the party opposite, I can only say that I think that their opposition to the maintenance of the deterrent and some of the other things they have said were, no doubt, a contributory factor in the decision of the Australian Government.

Does the Minister realise that his last comment will be treated with the contempt that it deserves and that this party is really interested in technical advances in all these fields?

I am satisfied that the transmission of our offers on price were perfectly well executed. The hon. Gentleman refers to Australian anxieties about Common Market policy. My own experience, limited though it may have been over two years as Secretary of State for Air and one year as Minister of Aviation, has been that the Australians are much more disturbed by the opposition of the party opposite to the nuclear deterrent and by doubts about whether the party opposite would stand by our allies in Singapore.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm now that this is a highly sophisticated and versatile aircraft capable of both a nuclear and a conventional rôle, and will he denounce in unequivocal terms the unpatriotic activities of hon. Members opposite?

I can confirm that the TSR 2 is capable of both nuclear and conventional attack in both the tactical and the strategic rôle. I think that some of the comments which have been made by hon. Members opposite, notably the comment of the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) that this was the biggest scandal since the South Sea Bubble, should be treated not only with the contempt which they deserve but with the full realisation that they can only damage the export possibilities of a very fine aircraft.

:Is the Minister aware of the great anxiety which has been expressed in informed quarters about the rising cost of this project? Are not we, at least, entitled to a statement from him that the original figure of £400 million could be maintained, in view of some estimates which have been made that it could rise to as much as £1,000 million?

I have explained that it is not our practice to give precise costs for either development or production programmes in respect of military aircraft. However, I have gone on record myself as saying that I should be astonished if the research and development of the aircraft cost even a quarter of the £1,000 million which has been talked about. I must add that I think that one of the most surprising things in all this is that the official Front Bench spokesman opposite should see fit to base himself upon figures supplied by the Observer newspaper.

:Is the Minister aware that many of us would be happier about the defences of this country if he would succeed in distinguishing between his Ministerial responsibilities as Minister of Aviation and his electoral needs as the Member for an extremely vulnerable seat where the TSR 2 aircraft happens to be made? Can he tell the House whether he disputes the statement made by the Australian Prime Minister that the reason why the Australian Government did not choose the TSR 2 aircraft was, first, that the Australian Air Staff regarded the TFX as more suitable in most ways to its needs and, second, that the terms on which the TFX was offered were considerably more favourable than those on which the British Government offered the TSR 2?

:It would not be appropriate for me to comment on what Sir Robert Menzies may have said.

Highly selective.

It is, no doubt, possible for the United States, which would be making 1,000 or more of the TFX, to produce a lower price than we can in making 100 or more of a similar aircraft. This is a fact of economic life which we have to face.

In view of the attacks by the party opposite on the production of this aircraft, will my right hon. Friend inform the House about the urgent need felt by the Royal Air Force, particularly in Germany, for an early delivery of this new tactical-strike-reconnaissance aircraft to replace the Canberra?

:Orders have been placed, as the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) would have seen if he had read the newspapers. They were placed several weeks ago and the Royal Air Force will receive this aircraft as soon as it can be delivered, regardless of the criticism raised by irresponsible elements in the party opposite.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the attitude of my right hon. and hon. Friends throughout has been one of constructive criticism towards this aircraft and that our apprehension is due to the delays and the prodigal expenditure? Will he indicate why there has been this prolonged delay in giving a production order for the TSR 2 if he wishes to have it in service with the R.A.F. as quickly as possible?

The hon. Gentleman has been more constructive than most of his right hon. and hon. Friends, but he can hardly expect me to accept his general statement after the South Sea Bubble reference I have noted.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

:On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the vital importance: of this aircraft to the strategic defence of the country, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

rose—

rose—

Order.

:Further to that point of order, having regard to the satisfactory—

Order. The hon. Gentletnan appears to be a little unobservant. I am on my feet.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to give notice that, on the occasion of this being raised on the Adjournment, I shall also refer to the justification of the Johnsonian dictum that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

The hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) has given notice that he will raise this matter on the Adjournment. I do not think that other hon. Members can give notice of other topics that will be raised at the same time.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the progress of the Concorde.

I ask this Question with an apology for the wrong spelling of "Concord".

Collaboration with our French partners in this joint project over the past year has been excellent, and satisfactory progress has been made. Work has started on jigs and tools and on the manufacture of bench test development engines. Tests and researches are proceeding into the various operational aspects. Orders for the aircraft have been received from four American airlines.

:While welcoming the placing of these orders, may I ask my right hon. Friend what is the position of orders for the control and guidance system of the aircraft?

I should like notice in detail of that question, but orders for the equipment of the aircraft will be divided on a 50–50 basis with our French friends in the same way as, broadly speaking, orders for the engines and airframe.

Can the right hon. Gentleman bring us up to date and say how many Concords have been ordered?

I believe the figure is about thirty altogether. I have not, however, the detailed figures with me. Four American airlines have placed orders and, of course, B.O.A.C. and Air France have taken out options.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is really important that in this country we should spell "Concord" without an "e"in order to get national credit for that part of the aircraft to be made by us? Will he take steps to circulate to the Press definite instructions to spell "Concord" as an English word in English newspapers for an English plane?

I was glad to accept the original apology of my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) on this. The beauty of the name "Concord" is that it has the same meaning in English and in French and that the modification in the spelling is very small.

What is the selling price?

I should require notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the future of Skyvan.

:The prototype aircraft has now been fitted with Astazou turbo-prop engines. I understand that the development flying programme is proceeding satisfactorily. I expect to reach a decision soon on the future of the project.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that the delay in coming to a decision is really intolerable? Does he recall that, at the end of July, he said that he hoped to reach a decision fairly soon? Can he give an indication as to when a decision may be reached?

I am trying very hard to help my hon. Friend and the interests for which he speaks on this matter but, frankly, I do not think that the delay has been intolerable. There is still no firm order, or firm indication of an order, for the project.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware that double glazing of windows, rather than the construction of double windows, can be now carried out for a comparatively small sum so as to insulate rooms against noise; and whether he will seek powers to give small grants to householders living near airports so as to enable them to double glaze windows on a do-it-yourself basis.

I know of no inexpensive method of double glazing windows which substantially improves noise insulation. Simple methods of insulating windows against external noise by using screens of materials other than glass have recently been tested by the Building Research Station and are now being evaluated by the Ministry of Aviation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a householder has, for the sum of £20, double glazed the windows in the chief rooms of his house and says that it has made a lot of difference in shutting out noise? Therefore, would not small grants of £10 or £15 to householders for this purpose be very welcome in the case of those willing to do the work themselves?

I take the point, but once one started giving grants for this sort of thing it could spread very widely. As the Lord President of the Council said in another place, it would be very difficult indeed to limit the spread of these grants.

:Will the hon. Gentleman use his influence with the Government to arrange a debate on the Wilson Report dealing with this subject?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can raise that through the usual channels.

asked the Minister of Aviation, in view of the possibilities in the transport of freight by air to relieve road transport congestion, if he will take steps to encourage the development of air cargo carrying services.

:I am always anxious to encourage the orderly and economic development of the transport of freight by air. But it is very doubtful whether any conceivable development of air freight services over the next few years could materially reduce the total volume of freight traffic carried on this country's roads.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the carrying of cargo by air is a new service, that there are great potentialities in it and that it could relieve both coastal traffic and traffic on our roads? Is he further aware that it can be developed adequately only by the Government and not by private enterprise? Will he look at this again?

:Yes, Sir. We always keep this matter under review but we also keep it in perspective. The amount of freight traffic moved by air within the United Kingdom is about 5 million ton miles a year. Almost this amount, on average, is carried every hour on the roads. A one hundredfold increase in air freight traffic on domestic air routes, which is quite inconceivable in the forseeable future, would still represent only 1 per cent. of the present volume of freight traffic on the roads. This is a great problem.

asked the Minister of Aviation what percentage of total transatlantic: flying civilian passengers British Overseas Airways Corporation has carried in each of the past six years.

The Annual Report of the British Overseas Airways Corporation for 1962–63 shows the Corporation's share of the Great Britain-North America traffic in the last five years as 37.5. 39.9, 41.4. 41.8 and 37.4 per cent. respectively.

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for those details. Is there any special reason for the sharp decline in the proportion of the transatlantic traffic that B.O.A.C. has enjoyed over the past two years?

There are a number of reasons and I think that we shall be going into them shortly when we debate the B.O.A.C. White Paper and the new Borrowing Powers Bill. I think a major reason has been that the introduction of big jets on a number of services which used to stage through London means that more aircraft now fly direct between the United States and the Continent.

asked the Minister of Aviation if Her Majesty's Government has ratified or proposes to ratify the International Convention which recently agreed to increase the powers of aircraft commanders in respect of passengers who endanger the safety of the aircraft or break the laws of its country of registration.

:The Convention, which was signed by our plenipotentiaries on 14th September, 1963, is now being examined in detail. When this is completed, the question of ratification will be considered.

:Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that commanders of aircraft should have all the authority necessary for the safe conduct of their machines? When it is sought to increase the legal powers of the captains, as in this case, will he remember that he might come up against difficulties on international routes because of language complications? Would he not agree that it might be better to increase the discretion of the captain in landing his 'plane in cases of sudden difficulty?

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his views and, as we are studying this Convention, we will certainly take note of what he has just said.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he is proposing to take for the improvement of safety standards on British scheduled air services.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware of the heavier accident rate on non-scheduled flights than that on scheduled ones; and what action he proposes to take to reduce such accidents.

:While the accident rate on non-scheduled flights is higher than on scheduled flights the total number of accidents is so small that valid comparison is not easy. It is the Government's aim to improve air safety generally and safety standards apply alike to all operators. The White Paper of 1962 outlined measures in hand including air operators' certificatesand improvements in pilot training and in airworthiness control. In co-operation with those concerned, particularly constructors, operators and pilots, these measures are being constantly developed in the light of experience including the analysis of accidents.

:Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the United Kingdom survey of aircraft accidents which was published for 1962 showed that in 1961 and 1962, 227 passengers and crew were killed in British United Kingdom air services, 185 of them on non-scheduled flights? Does he think that those are small numbers? Ought they not to trouble him? Will he make some comment on why there are so many accidents on non-scheduled flights?

:This is a very wide subject. I share the hon. Member's anxiety and I take it most seriously. Among other things, I attended the recent symposium on flight safety which studied this question. However, the figures of deaths which the hon. Member gave can be put another way, that is, by comparing the number of accidents on scheduled and non-scheduled flights. Both classes had two fatal accidents each in 1961–62, but the scheduled operators flew about three times as much. Much of this goes back to the correct analysis of the accident figures, which we are trying to improve.

:Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that we cannot possibly tolerate a position in which one type of flight shows a far higher incidence of accidents than another and that the minimum must be our aim? If the numbers of people flying continue to increase as now, will not this problem of accidents on non-scheduled flights become a very grave issue, far from being a small matter? Is there not proof positive in the figures which we now have that it is far more dangerous to fly on a non-scheduled flight than on a scheduled flight?

:I urge the hon. Member to treat these figures with considerable reserve at this stage. The figures for the two years for which statistics of non-scheduled flights have been kept are insufficient to establish a trend for the accident rate for non-scheduled flights. Nevertheless, I agree that this is a very serious matter.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many emergency warnings have been given this year at London Airport in connection with the take-off and landing of aircraft.

:Emergency warnings can be given either after an accident has occurred on take-off or landing or when an aircraft in flight is known or is thought to have got into difficulties. Since January this year there have been three emergency warnings after aircraft accidents, 64 under the full emergency procedure and 243 local standby warnings.

Does the hon. Gentleman's Department hold an inquiry after every incident? Is he aware that on 6th November a Canadian jet airliner was allowed to take off in thickening fog and that it came down just after take-off in a field only 300 yards from some houses? Who was responsible for allowing an aircraft to take off from London Airport when there was thickening fog?

:We hold inquiries when accidents occur. That case is the subject of an inquiry and I do not wish to comment on it at this stage. Of the 64 incidents under full emergency procedure, all happily made safe landings.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he is aware that the British Overseas Airways Corporation and British European Airways are making margins of profit on liquor and, cigarettes many times that practised in the trades concerned; and if he will, in the public interest, issue a general direction forbidding this.

:The price charged for cigarettes and liquor is entirely a matter for the Corporations.

:That will not do. Is my hon. Friend aware that this applies not only to B.O.A.C., but to every airline operator to whom he gives permission to operate from London Airport? Is it not quite wrong that these airline operators should use a large duty concession which they get when selling cigarettes not for passing it on to the public, but for their own use?

:I sympathise with my hon. Friend a great deal, but it is up to the discretion of the airline to charge what price it thinks it can commercially charge. As for giving a directive, it would be entirely inappropriate to apply the statutory powers of general permission under Section 5 of the Air Corporations Act to the pricing arrangements in question. These powers may be used only in relation to matters affecting the national interest.

In that case, would my hon. Friend consider giving facilities for traders who will pass on this concession to operate at London Airport so that it can be passed on to passengers?

No. I do not think that that falls within the bounds of my Department.

asked the Minister of Aviation what further research and development he intends to initiate in the field of multi-jet vertical take-off and landing aircraft.

:There is at present no United Kingdom requirement for the development of an aircraft using multi-jet techniques. I am, however, considering with the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany the possibility of a joint experimental project. This would be directed to the application of the multi-jet principle to transport aircraft. No decisions have yet been taken.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the danger of sharing the results of pioneering in this country with Germany, France and other countries who have successfully developed multi-jet planes, so that we are in danger of losing the advantage which we have gained as a result of pioneering in this revolutionary development?

:I hope that what I have said about the experimental project under discussion will allay some of my hon. Friend's fears.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the progress of the Hawker P 1127 and P 1154 vertical take-off and landing aircraft.

:Development of the P 1127 for the tripartite evaluation programme is proceeding satisfactorily. The first of the nine aircraft ordered for the programme is expected to fly early next year and the evaluation should start as planned early in 1965. Development of the P 1154 is continuing under holding contracts pending a final decision on the project.

:Is it not a fact that the P 1127 is the most advanced aircraft of its type in the world? Can my right hon. Friend tell the House what steps are being taken to sell this aircraft, or components of it, to our N.A.T.O. allies? Can he further assure the House that this aircraft will be used as a basis for providing the future needs both of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force?

The P 1127 has been put forward as a possible Fiat G 91 replacement aircraft for those countries which have a requirement of this kind. It has not as yet found a market for that purpose, but the work done on theP 1127 will be of vital importance to the development of the P 1154, which has been considered in the first place as a Hunter replacement for the Royal Air Force and possibly as a Sea Vixen replacement for the Royal Navy. A final decision on this project has still to be taken.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why, in view of the fact that he has answered his hon. Friend's Question about the P 1154, he transferred similar Questions by myself and my hon. Friend to the Minister of Defence? Is this another example of trying to pass the buck for an unpleasant decision?

:No, Sir. The hon. Member should not misread motives like that. The Question to which he refers is one of policy, regarding the suitability of a certain aircraft to the requirement of the Services. I have answered this Question because it concerns the progress of certain programmes—the P 1127 and the P 1154.

:As there is widespread apprehension on the subject, can the Minister at least make a statement as to the progress made in developing the P 1154 for the Royal Navy?

I was saying that the development of the P 1154, which is still in an early stage—that is to say, at a stage where no differentiation is yet required between the two Services—is continuing under a holding contract, pending a decision on the contract as a whole.

asked the Minister of Aviation what plans he has to place development work in the field of freighter aircraft with Short Brothers and Harland.

I have no new plans beyond projects already announced.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the worries of the design staff at Short Bros, and Harland, who have put forward many suggestions, including modifications of the Belfast freighter with more powerful turbo-prop or jet engines? Is he not aware that further long-term planning would ensure the future of this valued design staff?

Yes, Sir. I am in constant touch with the management at Shorts and well aware of the suggestions put forward. Of course, before we can embark on anything of this kind we have to see whether there is a market for the aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation what recent assistance was given in the promotion of sales of the VC 10 aircraft in New Zealand; what was the result; and if he will make a statement.

:The British Aircraft Corporation made every effort to sell the VC 10 to Tasman Empire Airways Ltd. My Department and the C.R.O. gave them all possible help. I myself was in personal touch with New Zealand Ministers during the negotiations. The airline and the New Zealand Government however decided that the DC 8-50 was the most suitable aircraft and that neither the Boeing 707 nor the VC 10, which were also evaluated, would have offered such good economic prospects for T.E.A.L.'s particular route pattern. They therefore placed an order for three DC 8-50s.

Is my right hon. Friend convinced that this order for the American aircraft was placed entirely on commercial considerations?

It is always very difficult to say in these matters. We made every effort on our side, and the Boeing people—the American competitors of the DC 8-50—made every effort on their side. As far as I can judge, this matter was decided upon a commercial evaluation.

:When my right hon. Friend says "I myself was in personal touch", does he mean, "I was in touch"?

:My hon. Friend is quite right to raise this matter. I used the phrase "I myself" because Ministers often mean their Departments when they use the first person singular. I wished to indicate that I, personally, was in touch.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the growing concern that private social clubs for the purposes of gaming may be established without requiring the consent of the licensing authority or the local inhabitants of the area involved; and if he will introduce amending legislation to deal with this situation.

I have received a number of representations and am considering them.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we would like him to consider this matter very urgently, in view of the fact that private gambling clubs such as are being established in the town of Bridge of Allan can be opened irrespective of the wishes of the inhabitants of thelocality? Is he aware that the consent of the local licensing authority is required before a betting office is established in the locality, and that even a charity draw has to be registered with the local authority? Under those circumstances, in view of the feelings that exist locally about these matters, will the right hon. Gentleman show his interest in democracy by giving power to the local authority to grant or reject such applications?

:This is a serious problem, and I am not saying that some control is out of the question. In the case to which the hon. Member refers, concerning Bridge of Allan, my decision was reached after careful consideration of the reporter's recommendation and all relevant circumstances. But in determining a. planning appeal I must be careful not to use my planning powers to circumvent the provisions of other legislation passed by this House.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that it was the unanimous decision of the planning authority for this area that the application should be turned down, and that the Minister's overriding of that decision has gone against the judgment of the local inhabitants of Bridge of Allan?

The hon. Member is not quite clear about my answer. The point is that I was using my powers under the Planning Acts, and in such cases I cannot take into consideration views expressed by however many people on some other matter.

Surely that was exactly the local planning authority's interpretation of its powers. We sincerely hope that the Secretary of State will confine his "live-it-up" prejudices to his own area.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now authorise mini-cars rather than invalid tricycles to be issued to disabled drivers in rural areas who are working several miles away from their home address.

No, Sir. The provision of mini-cars, for patients other than war pensioners would probably require legislation and I could not give it priority over other improvements in the National Health Service.

:Will my right hon. Friend take into account the fact that these invalid tricycles have neither a heating system nor a spare wheel? It may be all right in urban areas, where assistance can be easily obtained, but on a remote country road a disabled driver who has a puncture may almost die of cold before assistance reaches him.

:I will certainly take note of what my hon. Friend says. We are continually trying to improve these tricycles, and have been making efforts recently to try to improve the provision of spare parts, such as spare tyres, in various rural areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is the policy of his Department to employ children under school leaving age for traffic census duties; and if he will issue a direction that in future traffic enumerators will be engaged through the local employment exchange.

Traffic censuses are normally carried out by localhighway authorities and I am not aware that children under school-leaving age have been employed for this purpose.

:Surely it is much better to employ the fathers of the families rather than the children. As this is a very small matter, surely we should take into account what we save in unemployment pay and issue some directive.

:My hon. Friend probably is aware that in his area there have been three traffic censuses in the last twenty-five years and that each lasted for a week. I can pay a local authority only a 50 per cent. grant towards its costs, and I must leave it to the local authority to use the available labour sensibly and effectively.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the toll charges to be imposed on users of the Forth Road Bridge; and whether, in view of the serious economic situation in areas depending on and served by the bridge, he will reconsider the policy of the imposition of tolls.

:When the Joint Board submits its proposed schedule of tolls I will, if this seems necessary, arrange a public local inquiry into the adequacy of the schedule to meet the Board's financial obligations. I do not believe that tolls will have a significant effect on the great contribution the bridge will make to economic development in the areas which it serves and no change of policy is contemplated.

:Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he or his Department should have commented on the suggested flat-rate toll of 2s. 6d. before the official reports were made to him? In view of the fact that the Government's mandate is running out—indeed they never had one in Scotland—would it not be better for them to defer action on this matter until after the election?

I have read comments that perhaps I and my Department moved a little quicker than was necessary. This is exactly the opposite of what hon. Members opposite often accuse me of. If I was wrong I apologise. As fora mandate, I hope that hon. Members opposite will not have, as their foreword to the next election in Scotland, "Promises agreed and made should be broken".

I agree that a bargain was made and that, if there is no change in the willingness of the bargaining parties, it should be kept. In view of the generous amount of money which the Government are anxious to spend on improving facilities for industry in central Scotland, would it not be a good contribution to get rid of the irritation of tolls altogether and make this a continuation of the roads running from north to south?

:I quite agree that, inevitably, there is some irritation in having to pay tolls. But there is the counterbalancing argument that we get considerably more money for our roads if we get some of the more expensive items paid for in this way. Regarding industry, it may interest the House to know that since we last discussed this matter at Question Time seven new firms and four firms in Fife have extended their premises. This seems to me to indicate that Government policy is not holding up development, very important as it is, in this area.

sked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consult chief constables with a view to establishing a regional crime squad for Scotland.

I do not think I would be justified in suggesting a crime squad to cover the whole of Scotland. The regional arrangements in the West of Scotland are well known; appropriate arrangements exist elsewhere, and chief constables generally know that they can readily obtain assistance from larger forces, but I shall of course consider any recommendation about crime squads that may be made by the Home Office Police Research and Planning Unit.

:Is not it nonsensical that the Secretary of State should be allowed to get away with that argument, especially when within the last few weeks a committee of experts has advised the formation of regional crime squads for the United Kingdom as a whole? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the mind of the criminal knows no geographical barrier and that the regional crime squad to which he referred is limited. Is not it about time we had a Scotland, Yard for Scotland—[Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."]—which could be made available to chief constables on request in order to improve criminal detection techniques?

All this is interesting, but I think that we should wait until the Home Office Police Research and Planning Unit, which is considering the problem, has produced its recommendations.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give a direction to the Scottish Special Housing Association to postpone contemplated rent increases for 1964, in view of recent and substantial increases to Scottish Special Housing Association tenants.

No, Sir.

:Has the Secretary of State borne in mind that over the last three years the tenants of the Scottish Special Housing Association houses have paid increases in rents totalling £500,000? Does he realise that needy characters are no longer able to pay the rents of the houses? Is he aware that at the present time the Committee in Scotland is considering increasing the rent by another £12? Does the Minister believe that this is fair, especially in those areas where there is a hard core of unemployment and where the rent rebate schemes of this association are in no way effective?

I am absolutely satisfied that the S.S.H.A. rents are reasonable and that the operation of their rent rebate scheme is satisfactory. As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, the rent rebate scheme starts where wages are below £13 10s. a week.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will introduce legislation to ensure that the gain from rising land prices in many areas of Scotland consequent on current developments does not accrue wholly to landowners.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that, according to a letter sent to me by the Minister of State and dated 14th October, land in the Fort William area, which cost £67 an acre before development, is now costing £750 per acre for housing? In view of the statement made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government about the form of nationalisation he is to introduce, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can say what form of public ownership and development of land is to be introduced by him during the current Session?

:It is true that ten years ago, when there was no development in the area, the figure for land, in one or two cases, was as low as £67 an acre. Since then it has risen from between £100 and £550, and at its present level it is roughly comparable with prices paid by county councils and small burghs all over Scotland.

:Surely the development that has taken place and the increase in the value of this land is due to public expenditure and public enterprise? Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that he has produced a grandiose plan for central Scotland which, if carried out, would lead to a greatly enhanced value for this land, but that he is prepared to see this enhanced value go to private landlords who have done nothing about it? Why does not he do something for Scotland?

:The hon. Gentleman talks about land being increased in value by Government effort. It is perfectly true that in the Fort William area the Government played an important part—

Ten million pounds.

It was £10 million out of £18 million, or perhaps a little more. But the Government effort was only part of it, and a great deal of the development, I am glad to say, was due to private industry. In these matters I am certain that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government—who spoke about this in the House a day or two ago—is right. The way to maintain the amount of land we need for building is to see that there is plenty of it available.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to agree with the principle enunciated by the Minister of Housing and Local Government, that where land prices increase as the result of betterment by public enterprise, the increase in value should be channelled into public coffers and not private pockets? If the right hon. Gentleman does not accept that, then clearly there is a difference between the policy enunciated by himself and that enunciated by the English Minister.

I always agree with my colleague the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many municipal houses were built in Scotland in each year from 1952 to 1962.

The total number of houses built by local authorities was 244,661, and by other public agencies 55,189. I shall, with permission, circulate figures for each year in the Official Report.

:Would not the Secretary of State agree that the figures regarding completions given last week by the Prime Minister were misleading in relation to Scotland? Would he agree that while in 1957 24,000 municipal houses were built, by 1962 this figure had dropped to 16,000? Is he aware that in 1957 completions from all sources amounted to 32,000 and that by 1962 that figure had dropped to 26,000? While it is generally agreed that we have some of the worst housing conditions in Western Europe, is not it a terrible thing that these figures should drop by approximately 6,000 over the period which I have indicated?

I think it a pity that the figures dropped. But the hon. Gentleman knows very well that during the last two years local authorities have

To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many children in the care of local authorities have been sent overseas under emigration schemes since the passing of the Children Act 1948.

To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many children in the care of local authorities have been sent overseas under emigration schemes where the parents or guardians had indicated their opposition when consulted under the provisions of the Children Act 1948.

With permission, Mr. Speaker, may I ask Questions No. 33 and No. 34 together?

I shall, with permission, answer Questions No. 33 and No. 34 together.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to make Tory posters in Scotland read that we are replacing the slums at the rate of 40 a day?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the Government's policy of pressing forward with measures to provide for a rising school population and to improve the standard of school education, he will authorise local authorities whose school building programmes were cut earlier this year to proceed with their lists of projects as originally submitted to him.

:No, Sir. The programmes originally submitted by education authorities for the current year proposed collectively far more work than could have been undertaken, but the programmes I approved are permitting investment in school building to continue at a very high level.

How can the right hon. Gentleman's reply be reconciled with the reply he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) on 24th April when he indicated that if he

"had enough money to enable every education department to start all the work it wanted to do immediately, this would be a different problem."—[Official Report, 24th April, 1963; Vol. 676, c. 208.]

It would certainly have made a difference because one or two local authorities—the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) knows one—could have spent more money. It is none the less true that very few additional projects that I am aware of could hive been started. In Glasgow, where we gave an allocation of £2,500,000, the authority had to make adjustments to keep abreast of this programme and, so far as I can discover at the moment, will achieve it only by March of next year.

:In view of the promise we have had through the White Paper for the development of central Scotland and increasing investment in social amenities, will the right hon. Gentleman immediately issue an order that local authorities such as Dunbartonshire which have had their school building programmes cut—it would be an amenity for the population if the amounts cut were restored—should go ahead with the social investment of education for children?

:What we are endeavouring to do is to see that any extra expenditure goes to areas where growth is expected, and there are some areas in Dunbartonshire which I hope will be helped.