asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the Teachers (Scotland) Regulations, 1963.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received from local authorities regarding his proposal to grant an additional £50 per annum to teachers serving in certain areas and schools; what is the nature of these representations; and if he will make a statement.

The Teachers' Salaries (Special Allowances) (Scotland) Regulations, containing proposals to pay a special allowance of £50 to teachers in parts of the greater Glasgow area, were published in draft on 18th September. Since then my right hon. Friend has received representations from 14 education authorities, from the Association of County Councils in Scotland, and from the Educational Institute of Scotland, expressing opposition to the proposal. My right hon. Friend has asked the National Joint Council for its further views.

Does the Under-Secretary of State realise that I received the letter which the Secretary of State sent me asking for elucidation of my Question? Apparently, the Secretary of State does not understand that the teachers' organisations are experts in all matters relating to teachers' salaries and conditions of work, and sufficient attention is not paid by the right hon. Gentleman to the representations concerned with that correspondence. Will the Secretary of State for goodness' sake read the correspondence more carefully and realise the needs of the teachers and fulfil them at once?

:The reason why a letter was sent to the hon. and learned Gentleman was because he did not frame his Question exactly correctly. I presume that he intended to refer to the Teachers Salaries (Special Allowances) (Scotland) Regulations. It is just because we wish to take into account the opinions of all organisations that we are awaiting the views of the National Joint Council.

Were there any consultations with the National Joint Council before drafting the Regulations concerning this £50? These Regulation have proved to be ludicrous in the eyes of all Scottish teachers, whether they are affected by them or not. Cannot the hon. Lady or the Secretary of State say today that this offer of £50 will be withdrawn immediately so that Scottish teachers may know that their legitimate demands are being fairly considered and in a sensible way?

The recommendation to give an extra allowance of £50 to Glasgow teachers originally came through the National Joint Council. It was after that that the salary Regulations were published in draft. When objections were raised from surrounding areas, a second set of draft Regulations was published, and these Regulations are now the subject of consideration. On the last part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question, a meeting is expected to take place on 13th December, and we shall come to a decision after that.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the vacillating policy of the Secretary of State for Scotland, judged by the volume of correspondence received by hon. Members, has aroused the anger of the teachers concerned? Does she realise that if the right hon. Gentleman persists in his plan to award the £50 on a selective basis it will create more difficulties than it will solve? In these circumstances, although I was in favour of the £50 being awarded to the teachers in Glasgow, it would be far better to withdraw the whole scheme.

:I understand that originally the proposal came through the National Joint Council and that it was supported by the Glasgow Education Authority. Far from my right hon. Friend being vacillating, he has done everything to see how he could overcome this particular problem in Glasgow.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many almoners are employed full-time and part-time by the Greenock and District Hospitals Board.

None, Sir.

:Is the Minister aware that there is serious concern locally, especially among voluntary workers who try to help patients after discharge, that there is no one to assist these patients? Could the hon. Gentleman arrange for an investigation into the finances of the Greenock and District Hospitals Board to see whether it is possible for his Department, through the Western Regional Board, to give more money so that these essential people can be appointed?

:The post has been advertised on several occasions, without success, and it will be advertised again. I will certainly take note of what the hon. Member has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many new permanent houses and flats were completed in Aberdeen by the local authority and by private builders, respectively, during each of the last 10 years; and if he will estimate the numbers likely to be completed in 1963 and 1964, respectively.

As the Answer involves a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Does the Secretary of State realise that that generalised Answer is very unsatisfactory? The failure of the Government to provide dwellings for people in Aberdeen is largely due to the disparity between the Government's plans for building offices, on the one hand, and dwellings, on the other. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into that aspect of the problem with a view to ensuring that more dwellings, as distinct from offices, are provided for the people?

I think that the hon. and learned Member realises that if he tables Questions in this form this type of generalised Answer must be given. However, I am certainly delighted—and I am sure the hon. and learned Members knows it—to see that the figures for house building in Aberdeen are again rising.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland for what reason he has supported the temporary appointment of an infants mistress to a Thurso school who does not hold the qualifications appropriate to the post: and why no steps were taken to obtain applications for the appointment from teachers in Caithness or elsewhere who are qualified under the Schools (Scotland) Code, 1956.

As has been explained to the hon. Member, my right hon. Friend considers that the education authority acted reasonably. The teacher concerned was a certificated teacher already in their service and of proven ability, who undertook to obtain at summer courses the additional qualification necessary for a permanent appointment. The authority already knew the appropriately qualified teachers in Caithness and their circumstances, and had given local teachers an assurance that promoted posts in this school would be filled as far as possible from teachers serving in it.

When did it become possible for any Minister, either senior or junior, to override the law of Scotland and support a group who had broken it? Is the hon. Lady aware that this post is only one of dozens of posts and that all the others have been advertised but this one was not, and that the teachers of Caithness regard it as a piece of jobbery?

The Schools (Scotland) Code allows a certain amount of discretion to local school managers. The local authority's policy has, of course, been to fill promoted posts wherever possible. The teacher in question has been with the authority since 1958 and has undertaken to get the necessary infant mistress's endorsement.

Was there no one in the area with the requisite qualifications and, failing there being anyone in the area, was there no advertisement to ensure that somebody with the requisite qualifications could apply?

:There was no advertisement of this post because the local authority had given an assurance to the local teachers that as far as possible it would try to fill the post from among the school's existing teachers, and the mistress in question had given very good service with great ability for some years and had undertaken to take the extra endorsement.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities in Scotland are adding sodium fluoride to their public drinking water: if they have done so on his recommendation; and if he placed the full facts for and against fluoridation before them.

None, Sir. But seven with my right hon. Friend's approval are now in course of making the necessary technical arrangements. My right hon. Friend has sent to all local health authorities copies of the report on the five-year experiments conducted in Great Britain and a booklet prepared by the Ministry of Health on the subject.

My last figures showed that the majority of water authorities in Scotland are against the scheme Is that still the case? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that sodium fluoride is better known as rat poison? If treatment is required for dental decay, would it not be better to give sufferers treatment in pill form, or in solution, instead of taking as a therapeutic maxim the idea that if little Johnnie is suffering from a sore toe and wearing a poultice for it everyone in the neighbourhood should wear poultices, too? Does the Undersecretary accept this as good medical practise?

:Not altogether. Although, as I have said, seven authorities are in process of making arrangements, according to my information thirteen have rejected the idea of fluoridation. Although I have used rat poison in my agricultural connection on many occasions, I have never used sodium fluoride, and I should not have thought that if we wished to cure the decay which is so prevalent in children's teeth it would be practicable to take the course suggested by the hon. Member.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that I grew up in a part of the world where natural fluoridation was ten times more than is ever anticipated in Scotland or elsewhere in this country? Will he accept that at the age of 60 I have all my teeth as a result and that I do not think that I am a rat and I have never taken rat poison?

I have often admired my hon. and gallant Friend's set of teeth.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the arrangements made between the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board and the South of Scotland Electricity Board for the interchange of supplies over the coming winter months; and if he will make a statement.

I am assured by the two boards that they are satisfied that their arrangements for the interchange of power will make the best possible use of their resources in the interest of electricity consumers throughout Scotland.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, following the publication of the Mackenzie Report, there was a great falling off of co-operation between the two boards and considerable antagonism was generated? Will the Secretary of State look into this to see that this does not apply now and that this antagonism will not prejudice supplies of electricity in Scotland over the coming winter months?

:The hon. Member should not ask me to look into something which happened in the past and which is certainly not the case today. I am assured by the two boards that their closeness of operational control is as good as it possibly could be, and I am certain that no consumers in Scotland will suffer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement concerning the school-building programme in Fife in the financial year 1964–65, in the light of the policy set out in the White Paper, Central Scotland, Command Paper No. 2188.

It would be premature to make a statement since the authority's revised building programme is not due to reach my right hon. Friend until mid-December. The allocation of investment made for 1964–65 is as yet a provisional one and the authority is meeting officials of my right hon. Friend's Department later this week to discuss the whole matter.

Is it not the case that the Fife County Council wanted to start the Glenrothes school this year but the Department refused this, but that when Fife County Council showed that it could start it the Department approved on condition that the £500,000 that the school would cost would be taken from the £800,000 allocated to the county for 1964–65, which means, in effect, that Fife will be able to build one school next year if the Department sticks to the position which it has already taken up? Is this consistent with the policy outlined in the White Paper for Central Scotland?

The school to which the hon. Member has referred will certainly cost a large part of the provisional allocation of £800,000. I stress, however, that this is provisional. As to the White Paper, the hon. Member will be aware that there are to be detailed surveys of the growth areas with the authorities concerned.

Does that imply that the Government knew nothing about the plans for Central Scotland when making their provisional allocations for 1964–65? Is this merely an afterthought on the eve of an election?

Certainly not. If, as I am sure he has done, the hon. Member has read the White Paper carefully, he will realise that a great deal of work has gone into it over a long period.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received concerning the proposed heating of certain hospitals in Edinburgh with oil; and, in view of the urgent need to safeguard and improve the future prospects of the Scottish coal industry, whether he will rescind such proposals.

My right hon. Friend has received 25 representations on this subject. The South-Eastern Regional Hospital Board invited all the fuel interests concerned to submit revised proposals. These have just been received and no decision can be made until they have been considered.

Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, in coming to a decision on this matter, the Secretary of State or the regional hospital board will be guided by the same considerations as inspired the Secretary of State when he was deciding whether the new power station in Fife should be fired by oil or coal? In other words, will he give an assurance that the social factors will be taken into account and that the future prosperity of the coal mining industry will be safeguarded?

Yes, it is, of course, in the national interest to secure that in any case where coal is competitive with other fuels the Coal Board should be given full opportunity to tender for the heating installations for public institutions, and the hospital authorities do this. I would say that each case must be looked at in the light of its own particular circumstances and, to a certain degree, in the light of the price comparisons between using one fuel and another.

I must press the hon. Gentleman. Will he give a categorical assurance that social factors, and the: fact that Fife depends almost entirely on the coal mining industry, will weigh extremely heavily with the Secretary of State in guiding the regional board to its decision?

I am perfectly willing to go so far with the hon. Gentleman as to say that these things will be given most careful consideration, but I would not be prepared to say that hospitals should use coal regardless altogether of cost.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the eligibility for acreage payments of farmers who have difficulty, owing to bad weather, in harvesting their crops.

I will, with permission, circulate in the Official Report the figures requested for the past five years. For 1964, offers from growers to talled 7,600 acres at 25th November.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that the figures which are to be circulated are likely to show a declining change in the acreage for beet, and that the figure he has quoted rather tends to prove it? In view of the difficulties which farmers have had with sugar beet growing and the disincentives of price and transport, will my hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of keeping the Cupar sugar factory open in full production in future years?

:Yes, my hon. Friend is right when he points out that there has been a comparatively minor decline in the figures between 1962–63. I would just remind him that the last three years have been particularly bad ones for weather conditions for sugar beet growers, following upon two extremely good ones in 1959 and 1960. The question of transport is under discussion between the National Farmers' Union and the British Sugar Corporation at the moment.

Difficulty in harvesting oats or barley as grain, due to bad harvesting weather, will not affect entitlement in respect of a crop which is otherwise eligible for deficiency payment.

Will my hon. Friend tell me if any special steps have to be taken by farmers, in the deplorable situation because of the weather, to make quite certain that the fact that grain has not been harvested but fed direct to cattle will not invalidate their claims?

No, provided there was quite obviously an intention to harvest, and the intention has been frustrated by impossible weather conditions, the acreage payments will become due.

Thank you very much.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to alter the regulations for claiming maternity fees under the National Health Service.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the new simplified maternity fee claim form for general practitioners will be introduced.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will ensure that a simplified form for the claiming of maternity fees in Scotland under the National Health Service is introduced, on the same basis as that which now applies in England.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the regulations for claiming maternity fees under the National Health Service in Scotland will be amended to rectify the anomaly between the Scottish and English regulations.

There is no disparity between the Scottish and English fees, and the regulations simply provide in both countries that the form shall be issued for the purpose by the Executive Council. The form used in Scotland has been agreed with the General Medical Services Committee (Scotland) as representing the profession, and my right hon. Friend expects to discuss a revision of it with them after current discussions about a new form of maternity record card have been completed.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that these discussions and this matter have been under consideration for over a year, and that because of the inactivity of his right hon. Friend there is serious discontent amongst doctors in Scotland who are doing maternity work? Is he aware that it is not the record card nor the fees which are in dispute, but the maternity claim form? Is he further aware that in that form doctors in Scotland have to fill in 15 separate items every time they make a visit to a maternity case during pregnancy, while their colleagues across the Border have to fill in nothing but a single tick in doing exactly the same kind of work? When is the hon. Gentleman going to remove that discrepancy?

I should like to correct the hon. Gentleman when he says this has been going on for over a year. I think it is a matter of about eight or nine months. [Laughter.] I think the hon. Gentleman can appreciate that there is a subtle difference. So far as indignation goes, until representations were received within the last week or two there has been no evidence of indignation at all. I must put it to the hon. Gentleman that this is a matter on which we must take guidance from the General Medical Services Committee, which is the body which speaks for the profession in Scotland.

Did not the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend the other day indicate that he tried to keep in line with England? Surely in this case we have fallen behind? Would the Minister say when this new provision was made for the claiming of these maternity fees in England, and why there has been this long delay in bringing this simplified form into operation in Scotland?

It has never been the case that the forms for Scotland have been in fact the same. There always have been discrepancies. Again, no matter what the hon. Gentleman says, I think I must tell him quite frankly that till the General Medical Services Committee in Scotland is satisfied with the change, although we shall, of course, draw its attention to this, we would not be prepared to put pressure upon it.

In view of the fact that this simplified form for the claim of maternity benefits in Scotland has been in operation a considerable time, why is it that the Scottish Office always seems to be like the donkey's tail, right behind?Is it not time that we saw some real vigour and more determination from Scottish Ministers in seeing that Scotland gets a fair crack of the whip?

I would think that the answer was that, unlike the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues opposite, we do not claim to think that the gentlemen in St. Andrew's House know best.

The hon. Gentleman said that consideration of this change has been going on for eight or nine months. Could he tell us how much longer it is likely to go on?

I think it is probably likely—although, of course, the General Medical Services Committee will take note of what has been said—till the profession are satisfied that the new form would comply with the requirements which they desire.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the review of livestock rearing farms made for the purpose of the Winter Keep Scheme will affect the future eligibility of farmers in Scotland to receive the Hill Cow Subsidy.

asked the Secretary of Slate for Scotland whether he will ensure that Hill Cattle Subsidy will be payable to all holdings which are eligible for the Winter Keep Scheme.

All farms accepted as eligible for Winter Keep Grants will also be eligible for Hill Cattle Subsidy, but it does not follow that because a farmer is ineligible for Winter Keep Grant he will necessarily lose the Hill Cattle Subsidy.

Can my hon. Friend say what number of farmers will now become eligible for the Hill Cow Subsidy? Will he, in particular, say whether upland dairy farmers who give up their majority dairying interests will become eligible automatically for the subsidy?

On the first point, I cannot give any specific figure of how many will actually receive the Hill Cattle Subsidy, because many who might be eligible might not necessarily claim it. As to the dairy farmer, I think I can say that if he rebalanced his production and went in for a certain number of hill cows he would become eligible for the subsidy.

To put the previous question in a slightly different form, can my hon. Friend say how many farmers are now in receipt of this support and how many are likely to be ineligible?

I think that about 16,000 are eligible for the Hill Cow Subsidy at the moment, although not all claim it, and I shall be very surprised if more than 50 altogether are excluded from it.

What measure is used to show whether a farmer qualifies for the Winter Keep Scheme or for the Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme?

In order to be eligible for these schemes a farm must consist predominantly of livestock rearing land, as it is classified, or for Hill Cattle Subsidy it must have an area of such land which would form the basis of a separate hill enterprise, and it must be predominantly mountain, hill or heath.

What machinery is there for appeals for farmers judged to be ineligible? Is my hon. Friend aware of the very widespread feeling in the Scottish Highlands against the Winter Keep Scheme taking the place of the M.A.P.? Farmers are very worried indeed. Will my hon. Friend look into this?

:I think that that is going slightly wider than the immediate Question. I am, of course, aware that people are worried about winter keep. In fact, I am certain that I shall go to my grave with the words "winter keep" written on my heart.

When?

As to appeals, I shall be only too ready to seek help which the members of the consultative panel which has been set up to deal with appeals in connection with the Winter Keep Scheme may care to give me on the matter of qualification for the Hill Cow Subsidy.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to enlarge the paraplegic unit at Edenhall Hospital, Midlothian.

None, Sir, My right hon. Friend is aware of the need for some additional facilities for the treatment of paraplegic patients, but they should probably be provided at other hospitals than Edenhall, and consideration is now being given to how this provision should be made.

:Surely the fact that this is the only unit of its kind in Scotland warrants something being done about it? At the Edenhall Hospital there is a waiting list of patients of this type for beds. The staff are prepared to accept more patients but, unfortunately, they cannot do so. As this is the only place of its kind in Scotland and in view of the calls made upon it and the fact that there are people who cannot get beds there and must go about suffering, cannot more money be provided for the South Eastern Regional Hospital Board to give it the opportunity of extending the hospital?

The South Eastern Regional Hospital Board has in mind to replace the Edenhall unit by a larger scheme at the Astley Ainslie Hospital, and this proposal will be taken into account in the review of the problem which is now in hand. I should add that, whereas in the past Edenhall was admirably sited because the majority of paraplegic cases came from those who worked in the coal mines, today the majority consist of those who suffer from road accidents and falls.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to improve the kitchen facilities at Eden hall Hospital, Midlothian.

The regional hospital board has authorised the board of management to carry out certain improvements during the current financial year.

It is not improvements which are required. What is needed is a new kitchen. The kitchen was built in 1941, and it has remained exactly the same ever since. There have been complaints about bad food being served to patients. Here we have the kitchen of a fairly large hospital which is still using the equipment put there in 1941. Is it not time something was done about about it?

In the longer term, the regional hospital board intends to replace the kitchen entirely. In the meantime, it is spending about £4,000 as a short-term measure on new equipment which it believes will have a considerable effect.

What does the hon. Gentleman mean by "in the longer term"?

I should imagine that that is where the matter of priorities must come in.

The hon. Gentleman had better stick to agriculture.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the building progress of the Randolph Wemyss Memorial Hospital extension; and when he expects it will be available to relieve the long waiting list of geriatric patients in urgent need of hospital facilities.

:Building has been completed ahead of schedule and the extension should be in operation by the end of the year.

The hon. Gentleman's reply conflicts somewhat with the actual case. The East Fife board of management was advised that the building would be finished in September this year. What has happened has caused considerable administrative difficulty with regard to the furnishing of the hospital extension and with regard to staff. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this merely scratches the surface of the problem of providing geriatric beds in the East Fife area? What proposals has he to speed up the provision of beds for aged chronic sick in the Kirkcaldy and East Fife district?

The final completion date has always been December, 1963. At one time it looked as if the building could be completed by September. In the event, this has not proved possible, but completion is still ahead of schedule. The progress of the project reflects credit on all concerned.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of those beds represent provision and facilities for West Fife and do not in any way reflect an improvement in the position of East Fife? Also, if the contract date for completion of the hospital was December, how was it that the board was advised that it could take possession of the extension in September?

:With regard to the second part of the question, as far as I am aware this was a rather over-optimistic expression of opinion by someone. It was never official. On the first point, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not one who would suggest that "East is East and West is West and never the twain should meet."

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from Fife Education Authority regarding cuts in the school building programme for 1964–65; and what was the nature of his reply.

My right hon. Friend has so far received no representations from the authority, though he has seen its telegram addressed to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It has, however, sought a meeting with my right hon. Friend's Department on this matter and the meeting will take place later this week.

Is the noble Lady aware that since 1958–59 the Fife Education Authority has completed £1 million—£1,275,000 worth of school building? What reason, therefore, has the Department for suggesting that it is capable of starting building work next year to the tune of only £800,000, less than £500,000 to be spent on Glenrothes High School this year?

I stated earlier that the £800,000 was a provisional allocation. If the hon. Gentleman examines further the five-year period he mentioned, he will see that while £11 million worth of work started in Glenrothes, the picture as a whole shows that £3,650,000 worth was started in the rest of the county.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the cost to public funds of his recent official tour of the United States of America.

The estimated cost is approximately £2,250.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, whilst we welcome American industrialists to Scotland to set up new industries there, nevertheless quite a number of people feel that he rather demeans his high office when he goes to America, kilt in bag, in order to ask industrialists to do his job for him?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's remarks reflect more than a tiny and rather foolish percentage of the people in Scotland. I see nothing demeaning in the Secretary of State, or, indeed, any other person with an interest, going abroad in order to attract industry to a particular part of the world. I think my visit was welcomed by the great majority of Scottish people.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the opinions of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) do not reflect the general view of the people of Scotland, who congratulate my right hon. Friend on his imaginative enterprise?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us do agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East? Is he not aware that it is one thing for a person interested in business to go abroad but quite another for the Secretary of State for Scotland himself to go in this way, for it suggests that we in Scotland can do nothing for ourselves? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that Scotland really gets down to a job of work under his tutelage and not go running all over the world?

The hon. Gentleman forgets—not that he has not often been told—that over 80 per cent, of new industry in Scotland during the last ten to fifteen years has been created by industry already there.

That is nonsense.

I do not think anyone in Scotland feels that it is a waste of time to try to get industry from America or elsewhere to help us.

rose—

:Order. We have dealt with only about twenty-one Questions and it is now twelve minutes past three. Mr. Millan. Question No. 23.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his recent tour of the United States of America.

:The main object of my tour was to meet leading industrialists, and others who might be concerned and influential in investment decisions, so that I might have the opportunity of telling them about the advantages of investment in Scotland. I am glad to say that virtually all the executives I met, of companies who had in mind to establish or expand operations in Europe in the near future, indicated to me that they would consider most seriously what Scotland had to offer.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are very glad to welcome industry from any part of the world? But is not the job of attracting trade and industry in the United States itself the kind of job that should be done by officials from his Department or other Departments of the Government? Is he aware that many of us feel that it is beneath the dignity of his office, and a humiliation to Scotland, that Scotland's Cabinet Minister should be trailing round the United States pleading with industrialists to come to Scotland as though we were some kind of under-developed area in Asia or Africa?

If the hon. Gentleman had had the good fortune to be with me, or had read some of the newspapers, he would have realised that this was not at all the kind of approach I made to these gentlemen.

:What assurance has the right hon. Gentleman that these American companies will do anything about the matter? Does not he remember that at his request, I arranged for an executive of an American firm to meet him personally in Edinburgh and that, although the executive assured us that the firm was prepared to spend £500,000 on development in Scotland, the right hon. Gentleman has done absolutely nothing about it?

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that that case was not something within my responsibility and that I did not have the decision in my power. There is a considerable difference in meeting industrialists, which I do at the request of any hon. Member, if they have something that I can help them with.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why reference to further industrial development in the Greenock-Gourock-Port Glasgow area was omitted from the recent White Paper on Central Scotland.

The object of the White Paper was not to deal with each part of Central Scotland individually, but to set out a programme which would be of general benefit to the whole area.

Why, then, did the right hon. Gentleman say that it was physically impossible to provide further industrial development in this area of 100,000 Scots? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the topography of Renfrewshire and that there is a large potential area for the industrial estate at Port Glasgow to accommodate one large industry? Will he please give us this one industry which we need so desperately?

I am not aware that I have said at any time that It was impossible to develop any industry in that area. Obviously, the areas concerned, being development districts, have exactly the same facilities as any other areas in development districts. What I did say to a gentleman of the Press was that within the towns of Port Glasgow or Greenock there was much less available space.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the schemes of port development outlined in Command Paper No. 2188.

The White Paper on Central Scotland gave a general indication of desirable port developments; consideration of detailed plans is a matter in the first place for the port authorities concerned and for the National Ports Council. My right hon. Friend, the Minister of Transport has drawn the attention of the Council to the special needs of Central Scotland and their recommendations will be reported to him in due course.

Is this not most unsatisfactory? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, in our debate on the Rochdale Report in July, said that this would cause no undue delay? Is he further aware that this proposal was put forward by the Leith Docks Commission four years ago and that it has been approved not only by Ministry of Transport technical experts but by the consulting firms and everybody else in Scotland? How much longer must we wait before the right hon. Gentleman is able to get the Government to make the decision to allow us to go ahead with the scheme which, the Rochdale Committee said, could be carried out at a price only one-fifth of that incurred in any other part of the country if it was done expeditiously?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, who has said that he has asked the Rochdale Committee to deal with it urgently.

:It is also a question for the right hon. Gentleman, who publishes a White Paper which purports to be a comprehensive plan but does not offer any real plan or decision, merely stating that plans are being examined. This, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy) has said, has been going on for four years. When will we get a decision from the right hon. Gentleman?

I have the duty of exercising a general oversight of the range of proposals contained in the programme outlined in the White Paper. My direct responsibilities for specific projects are, and must remain, confined to those for which I am directly responsible to Parliament.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for what his scriptwriters put into Tory propaganda masquerading as White Papers?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment once more at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why piped water supplies are still unavailable for the people who live and work in Strathnaver, Kildonan, Achmelvich, Recharm, Culkein, Drumbeg, Sleastary, Migdale, Astle, Coull, Skelbo, Torboll, East Langwell, West Langwell, Rhilochan, Knockarthur, and Morness, all in the county of Sutherland; and when he intends to Temedy this situation.

:Sutherland County Council has naturally dealt first with the needs of new housing and the more populous communities. A scheme for Drumbeg is under construction. One for Skelbo and another covering East Langwell, West Langwell, Knockarthur and Morness are at present being considered by the council.

:Does my right hon. Friend realise that the Romans introduced piped water 2,000 years ago and that in the Middle Ages London, Bristol and Bath and other cities had it? We are now in the twentieth century, and is it not wholly wrong that these historic straths and townships should be left once again without piped water supplies? Does he wonder that the North is becoming more and more depopulated? Will he not stand up to the duty imposed on the Secretary of State for Scotland to provide for adequate water supplies throughout the country?

:The Highland counties as a whole have made very good progress with their water schemes. I will be as generous as I can in helping Sutherland County Council once it has schemes ready.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated cost of road improvement works for the routes between Inverness and Wick and between Inverness and Kyle arising from the intention of the Railways Board to withdraw all passenger services from the railways serving those areas as from 2nd March, 1964; and what proposals he has authorised.

Various improvements to these roads are in hand or in prospect, but none for this particular reason. The reports from the Transport Users' Consultative Committee will help me to assess what additional improvements might be needed; and I will see that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, is fully aware of the implications for expenditure on road works when the proposed closures come to him for his final decision.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of paragraph 120 of the Kilbrandon Report which lays down that no line ought to be closed unless adequate alternative transport facilities are available? Is he also aware that paragraph 111 of that Report advocates the setting up of a Highland Transport Board to make recommendations to him before any line is closed? Is it not regrettable and shocking that, while in July he promised to set up the Board, he has not yet named the members and yet there are repeated notices of closures and the Transport Users' Consultative Committee will not allow objectors to discuss anything other than hardships, not road improvements or anything else?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not expect me to change the system of the Transport Users'Consultative Committee for any particular line. The Highland Transport Board will be set up quite soon and I hope to be able to announce the names shortly. It will certainly be in a position to deal with any recommendations from the Transport Users' Consultative Committee and to help me long before these reports are ready.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree with his own decision that the Highland Transport Board ought to be the authority to make recommendations to him about closures? Is he saying that when closures take place he will have no part in the decision, but that it will be left entirely to the Minister of Transport?

I said exactly the reverse. I said that the Highland Transport Board would be in a position to advise me long before, I hope, the Transport Users'Consultative Committee comes in.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to announce the names of the members he has appointed to the Highland Transport Board; and if he will give an undertaking that he will approve no rail closures until the new Board have had an opportunity of giving him their advice.

:Following what has been said, my right hon. Friend hopes to announce the membership of the Board, and I think I can go further than my right hon. Friend and say, very soon.

While I welcome the new Minister coming in to bat on this issue, this is still the responsibility of the right hon. Gentleman. Will the Under-Secretary say exactly when this Board will be appointed? It was announced in July and nothing has been done since. Would he answer the second part of my Question and say that, as his right hon. Friend has given an assurance that no railway line will be closed until adequate alternative transport is available, he will not approve any closure until he has had the advice of the new Highland Transport Board?

:We are anxious—and this is the reason for the delay—to get the best possible membership of the Highland. Transport Board. I hope that the hon. Member will be pleased when it is announced, which, I repeat, will be very soon. Irepeat that the ultimate responsibility for closures rests with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, but that the Highland Transport Board will be consulted in all appropriate cases.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the discontent among farmers in the south-west of Scotland about the price of milk; and what proposals he has for preventing a further decline in the income of milk producers.

Yes, Sir. The National Farmers' Union of Scotland and the three Scottish Milk Marketing Boards have made representations on the subject to my right hon. Friend's Department. The question of the financial position of milk producers is, of course, a matter for consideration at the Annual Price Review.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that our complaint against his right hon. Friend is not that he went to America but that he ever came back? Is he aware that the standard of life of milk-producing farmers has been getting steadily worse? What does he intend to do for the small farmers?

I would not accept that the hon. Gentleman's first surmise would be accepted by most people in Scotland. I know only too well of the difficulties facing many milk producers, but while I know of some who have gone out of production, I am not aware of any significantly large movement out of milk production. It is always reasonable to expect a certain degree of movement in any sector of agriculture, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the needs of the dairy farmers, particularly small dairy farmers, are closely borne in mind.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that the shortage of liquid milk is affecting employment in the creameries and condensed milk factories in this part of the world? Will he urgently seek to reappraise the current view that milk is in over-supply and that we do not want any for manufacturing?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about the future power programme, and in particular the proposed 2,400 megawatt power station to be constructed at Irvine.

The future power programme of the Scottish Electricity Boards is set out in a brochure, Plans for the Future 1963–1970, copies of which are in the Vote Office. The brochure lists the stations which will be commissioned up to 1969. It contains no proposal for a new power station in Ayrshire and makes it clear that the decision on the type and location of new plant will depend on the economic merits of the alternatives available.

:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the wide publicity given in the Scottish Press last Thursday to the statement that a power station was to be constructed at Irvine in my constituency? Is he further aware of the increasing need for more electric power in the west of Scotland generally? If that is so, does he think that a new power station n will be required in the west? When does he think that would come about, and would Irvine be considered for it?

:I am aware, as most hon. Members are, of many statements which appear in the Press. The decision on the location of the power station is a subject on which I should wait for advice from the South of Scotland Electricity Board. I dare say that Irvine might be the lucky place, but I have no information on that subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the brochure to which he referred deals only with England and Wales and not with Scotland, and that Irvine happens to be in Ayrshire in Scotland?

If the hon. Gentleman is right, I apologise. My brief says that it deals with Scotland.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many hydro-electric projects are awaiting ratification by the Scottish Office?

That is a different question, but the Hydro-Board has published four schemes.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans there are for a new power station in Ayrshire; and if it is to use coal or oil.

I have answered Question No. 33 with the last Question.

No.

Can the right hon. Gentleman now use this opportunity to amplify what he has said, in view of the omissions and misunderstandings in his previous Answer? Does he not realise that there is intense interest in the west of Scotland, especially among the mining population, among people who want to know whether the Government have surrendered to the oil interests and are prepared to sacrifice the coal industry in the interests of oil?

:I apologise to the hon. Member for not saying that Question No. 33 was being answered with Question No. 32. It was my mistake. But there was no question of any muddle in my previous Answer when I said that the question of the fuel to be used would be judged on its merits at the time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether a time-limit clause with penalties has been inserted in the contract between the Livingston New Town Development Corporation and Messrs. R. Pert, Montrose, for the construction of the first 250 houses at Livingston New Town.

No, Sir.

Why not?

Its application might have resulted in later target dates or increased costs, either by way of higher prices or insistence on compensating bonus clauses. On balance the Development Corporation decided that a penalty clause should not be included.