I beg to present a Petition, Mr. Speaker, signed by the officers and members of the National Association of Registration Officers. The Preamble reads:

"To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament Assembled,

"Wherefore your Petitioners humbly pray that a Government Committee of Inquiry be appointed to investigate the organisation of the registration service; the conditions of service of registration officers; and to make recommendations concerning the reorganisation of the service; the modernisation of the local administration of the service and the salaries and conditions of service of the officers."

"And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement upon the progress of proposals for a new Mersey tunnel.

I understand that the Mersey-side local highway authorities are considering a report they have now received from the technical committee they set up to look into the need for and location of a second crossing of the River Mersey. I hope to receive proposals from the local authorities within the next few weeks.

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware that there are conflicting views on this matter? It is not desired to lose the advantage of the Steering Committee having arrived at an agreed decision, but, at the same time, it is widely felt that a two-lane tunnel may be inadequate for the needs. In that situation, does the Minister acknowledge that this is something which the Government will have to sort out because it is a matter of national interest? If a decision is made that there should be a two-lane tunnel, does the right hon. Gentleman feel free to give an assurance that that would be only the first phase in a process of developing crossings under or over the Mersey?

Although, like the hon. and learned Member, I represent a constituency on Merseyside, I do not think that I can give the assurance for which he asks in the last part of his supplementary question. I hope that this agreement locally will be unanimous, but if it is not, and if agreement cannot be reached, I hope that those concerned will let me know within a few weeks what the majority agree and what the minority say and why they are against it. I assure the hon. and learned Member that I will consider how I can speed up a decision, because a decision will have to be made.

I think that all of us on Merseyside hope that we will reach agreement in the Steering Committee. However, can my right hon. Friend say whether his Department has yet been able to make any assessment of the effect on transit traffic in the North travelling through Liverpool and the tunnel and what effect the opening of the M.6 has had on traffic going through Liverpool?

:It is too early to say, because M.6 has been opened only recently over its full length. Therefore, we will have to wait some time to see what happens. But that will be taken into account when we make this decision.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will take steps to ensure that the road traffic regulations are so framed that they put less burden on the time of the police force and can be administered efficiently without straining the relationship between the police and the motorist

:Before regulations are made under the Road Traffic Acts my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is always consulted so that the implications of police enforcement can be taken fully into account.

:Is the Minister aware of the case of the lady who was arrested for not sending her driving licence to the court and the case of the man who was imprisoned for three days and nights because his road fund licence was out of date? Would he agree that this type of case tends to exacerbate the feeling of motorists and thereby makes the task of the police more difficult? What does he suggest should be done about these cases.

I have seen some articles in the Press on the people concerned in these two cases. They have varied a little. But this is a question for the Home Secretary, not for me. The task of enforcement is the Home Secretary's, not mine.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this question again? The police are being utilised in tracking down petty motoring offences when they could surely be better employed elsewhere. Could not he consider some system of enforcement officers, perhaps under the traffic commissioners, to carry out this sort of work? Would not this be in the interests of the good type of road hauliers and other road users who feel very aggrieved by many breaches of the law?

:Responsibility for enforcement and the actions of the police in the area is not mine. It is no good my looking at it. The responsibility is that of the Home Secretary.

:The right hon. Gentleman is trying to evade responsibility by saying that it belongs to the Home Secretary. Has not the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that the Home Secretary is not responsible for the police everywhere but only in London, and that any responsibility there may be outside London must, therefore, be his? Will he not look at this again to see whether applications for warrants should continue to be made in quite trivial cases when all common sense is against it?

The hon. Gentleman must be fair. I said that the Home Secretary had responsibility for the Metropolitan Police but outside that area it is still not I who am responsible.

asked the Minister of Transport what action he is taking on the conclusion of the Committee on Traffic Signs for All-Purpose Roads that higher standards of road marking are needed and on their recommendation that lane and warning lines should be more extensively used, and reflectors placed on much used rural roads or where fog is prevalent.

New regulations, together with a manual for the use of local authorities, are being prepared in consultation with interested organisations, to implement the recommendations in the Warboys Report on traffic signs.

:As soon as some of these tests are completed, will my right hon. Friend start a drive to convince and persuade all local authorities of the importance and advantage of having better and also reflectorised road markings as recommended in the Report?

We have agreed that, to begin with, at every intersection, especially major ones, there will be clear indications of what motorists should do. That was in the Report and it is most important.

asked the Minister of Transport when work will commence on the Malton by-pass on A.64

We hope to be able to authorise a start of work on the eastern arm of the by-pass within about eighteen months.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that for twenty-five years my constituents have been pressing for the eastern arm of this road and that they have been caused both loss and inconvenience, by the delay? Is he further aware that in July, 1960—three and a half years ago—the Minister said that preparatory work was being undertaken and that he hoped that the eastern arm would be started soon? Time has been very long in this matter.

My right hon. Friend's constituents will at least be glad to know that work will start within eighteen months.

asked the Minister of Transport how many accidents have taken place at the intersection of York Road and Wetherby by-pass since the by-pass was built; and when it is expected that the proposed flyover will be completed at this junction

In the four years since the by-pass was opened there have been thirty-one accidents at this junction. In two of these there were fatal injuries, and in another seven there were serious injuries. There have been objections to the draft Order in which we are seeking authority to provide the flyover. But we hope to resolve these soon and, if all goes well, to start work by the autumn of next year. Construction of the flyover will take about twelve months.

asked the Minister of Transport whether the plans for road improvement for the period ending 1967–68 include a scheme for the provision of a toll-free bridge at Selby

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the obstruction to road and river traffic caused by the recent collision at Selby toll bridge; and what proposals he has for improving the traffic problem at this bridge

I am aware of the recent accident which held up traffic for a little over two hours. In November last year I appointed consulting engineers to investigate present and future trunk road requirements between the Great North Road and the port of Hull. This investigation includes the need for and siting of a new bridge over the River Ouse to relieve the bottlenecks at Selby and Boothferry bridges. I hope to have the consulting engineers' recommendations, in the spring of next year.

:But cannot my right hon. Friend give an assurance that, after a period of about sixty years, the Department over which he presides has just about got to the end of inventing plausible but ill-founded excuses for not ridding Selby of the curse of this toll bridge which causes such inconvenience and loss of trade to Selby and the surrounding district?

I am always grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for the way in which he understates his case. There was no Ministry of Transport sixty years ago and traffic congestion then with horse-drawn vehicles was worse than it is now. We now have consulting engineers making a technical assessment of the job. I promise my hon. and gallant Friend a firm place on the programme and I am sure he will rejoice.

Is the Minister drawing up plans for the provision of a toll-free bridge to replace the toll bridge?

We had better see what happens when the consultant engineers report.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this bridge has been a disgrace for many years? It is not only the constituents of the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Sir L. Ropner) and the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) who suffer but also people who live in Leeds and the other cities of the West Riding? If we could have a new bridge at Selby the problem at Malton would be greatly relieved.

I am quite aware of that, but one of the difficulties with some of these very old toll bridges is that their owners have the revenue tax-free.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made, in the last six months, in placing double tracks on the A.30 and A.303 roads to the West Country.

In addition to the existing 8·44 miles of dual carriageways on these roads, 2·87 miles have been completed during the last six months and 3·05 miles are under construction. A further ten miles are in the announced programme, including the Honiton, Andover and Amesbury by-passes.

Is not this a deplorable rate of progress, especially in view of the latest threat of the Railways Board to close the main line to the West Country at Salisbury?

I cannot agree with the conclusion which my hon. Friend has drawn from these figures. I think that they represent not bad going.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will readjust his road-building programme in order to give a higher priority to the West Country and to Devon in particular.

Between I960 and 1968 the West Country's share of the trunk and classified road major improvement programmes will total some £40 million. I would like to increase it further, but this could be done only at the expense of more urgent needs elsewhere.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that for four years now I have been asking when more" money would be spent on the West Country? Is he aware that of his last hand-out of £45 million only £500,000 was allocated to Devon? Is he aware that the county surveyor has said that we should need £136 million in Devon if we are to get our roads into some sort of order, and does not he think that we might have a higher priority now, and that he might look to the South-West instead of going on talking about the industrial roads in the Midlands?

I think it right that the bulk of the spending should be concentrated where the heaviest traffic is carried every day. There is no escape from that. I must also point out to my hon. Friend that there are other hon. Members representing constituencies in different parts of the country who would have other views about what is required. He must remember that a high priority for expenditure in one place means that there is a lower priority in another place. That is the difficulty.

Is the Minister aware that some of us have been asking for these road improvements for fourteen years and not four? Is he aware that there is currently a debate taking place in the House about the growth and development of other areas of the country and that on Saturday the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade said that there would be a considerable waiting period before there was any hope of the South-West being included in a scheme? Is the Minister aware that tourism is the greatest single industry in the South-West and that thousands of people depend upon it for their livelihood? Is he aware that many hundreds of thousands of people are refusing to visit Cornwall and Devon because of the chaotic state of the traffic in those areas?

I am aware of some of the things which the hon. Gentleman mentioned in his supplementary question, but I do not agree with all that he said.

:May I add a word to what has been said about the tourist trade by the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Wilkins)? Would my right hon. Friend agree that he is wrong in saying that many people in other parts of the country would not like to see more money spent in the South-West? Does not he appreciate that many of the constituents of hon. Members visit the South-West for their holidays, and we want them to continue to come?

If they are already coming to the South-West the facilities must be reasonably adequate.

They are chaotic.

asked the Minister of Transport what restrictions on parking are imposed where double yellow lines are marked on the carriageway adjacent to the kerb in the area of parking meters; and in what manner the use of such carriageway markings has been authorised.

Double yellow lines on the carriageway in a parking meter zone indicate a ban on waiting at all times, except for the picking up or setting down of passengers; they also indicate a ban on loading or unloading between 8.30 a.m. and midnight. I have authorised the use of these carriageway markings under the powers given to me in Section 51 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960.

:Can my right hon. Friend say how this authorisation has been communicated to the public? Is he aware that my impression is that no authorisation has been made public at any time?

I can do that quite easily. There was a Press notice which was given good coverage; the Westminster City Council produced an explanatory leaflet for drivers; the road transport organisations informed members through their bulletins and the motoring organisations covered the matter in leaflets explaining the meter zone rules. Therefore, it has received general publicity. If my hon. Friend has any further suggestions, I shall gladly consider them.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the increasing traffic congestion in the London Docks that is causing long and expensive waiting time for vehicles which is likely to be worsened by the closing of the Export Reception Dock for small consignments at Royal Victoria Dock; and what proposals he has for dealing with this problem.

:Traffic arrangements inside the docks are a matter for the Port of London Authority. It tells me that it is going to keep open the reception depot for a further six months to see whether greater use is made of it by traders. The Authority does not agree that congestion is increasing in the docks, but it is alive to the need for improvement.

I welcome the news that the closing of this reception depot is to be postponed for six months. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the conditions of congestion at the docks are not improving but getting far worse, and that there are delays of 48 hours? Does not this add considerably to the cost of exporting and thus discourage many firms who wish to start to export?

:The information which I have from the Port of London Authority is contrary to what my hon. Friend has said. The most effective method of reducing the congestion would be to provide for a more even flow of export cargo to the docks. The Port of London Authority is trying to arrange this, but it is very difficult, because exporters think that if they get to the docks at the last moment, their goods are taken off the ship first at the point of arrival. This causes half the difficulty.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects that traffic signals to guide pedestrians will be installed in one-way streets where they join Oxford Street, London, W.1

Pedestrian signals have been provided in Regent Street north and south of Oxford Circus and at Old Quebec Street, and they are being provided at Old Cavendish Street Pedestrians can cross in safety other one-way streets entering Oxford Street when the traffic is halted by the signals. We do not think that pedestrian aspects in these signals are justified at present.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many pedestrians, especially old people, become bewildered if they get no guidance about crossing one-way streets, particularly busy streets like Orchard Street, and will he look at the matter again?

:My right hon. Friend continues to keep this matter under constant review. He will keep in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to prevent traffic in Oxford Street, London, W.1, from being brought to a halt across intersections, thus blocking cross-traffic as well.

I am very conscious of this difficulty and of the deteriorating traffic conditions generally in Oxford Street. I am giving the problems urgent consideration and expect to be able to make proposals early in the New Year.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would not he agree that to be blocked by a stream of traffic across an intersection is one of the most infuriating ways of being involved in a traffic jam?

:This particular area of the West End is about the most difficult to sort out. It has not been made any easier by the building of the Victoria Tube extension. This has alteredthe original proposals which I had in mind and I am trying to work out new ones to take account of the alteration now being made as a result of the Victoria Tube. These will be announced early in the New Year.

In the absence of any hon. Member representing St. Marylebone and the area north of Oxford Street, may I ask the Minister whether he will consider a fundamental approach to this problem? Will he bear in mind that many years ago I suggested that there should be consideration of some method of restricting cars from coming into the centre of London? Is he aware that this idea has been confirmed by the Buchanan Report and will he take fundamental action to tackle the problem?

I do not remember the hon. Gentleman sending any details of methods to restrict cars coming into the centre of London.

asked the Minister of Transport how many fatal accidents took place in the United Kingdom in 1961, 1962, and up to the latest date in 1963, respectively, involving drunken driving; and what new proposals he has to reverse this trend.

In 1961 56 drivers or riders of vehicles involved in fatal road accidents in Great Britain were charged with a drink offence or would have been so charged but for their death. There were 83 such cases in 1962 and 44 in the first nine months of 1963. The figures for 1963 show a reduction of one-third on those for the corresponding period of 1962. As regards the last part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 15th May last.

:The figures indicating reductions are welcome. But does not the Minister realise that it is a national scandal that so many good and innocent people should be cut down in this shocking fashion? Does not he realise that he should become a little tougher about the drunken driver? Would he consider brandishing the deterrent of being banned from driving for life in order to minimise, if not eliminate, this type of crime?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am well aware of this menace—and "menace"is the only word I can use. For this reason I tried to introduce additional penalties into the Road Traffic Act, 1962. But I can only be as tough as Parliament will allow when getting a Measure through this House.

:As a drunken driver is about as dangerous as a man with a loaded machine gun, will my right hon. Friend consult his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to see whether the courts can impose greater penalties for crimes arising from such circumstances?

I will bring that supplementary question to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that the Opposition wanted him to go further than he did in respect of legislation imposing penalties, and is it not logical, therefore, to argue that his hon. Friends prevented him from going as far as he wanted while we on this side of the House would have supported any further action?.

I do not think that I shall enter into a discussion on that controversial point now.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will expedite the starting date of the westerly continuation of the Maidstone by-pass.

:The planning of this scheme is going ahead as quickly as possible. But we cannot at this stage say when it will be possible to find a place for it in the road programme.

:Will my hon. Friend give us an assurance that the M.20 westerly continuation will be put in hand substantially before the Channel tunnel begins?

:My right hon. Friend will, naturally, bear that point in mind.

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Government are discussing the prospect of a Channel tunnel without knowing what they will do about the road which leads to it?

:This is not a Question about the Channel tunnel. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to ask a Question about the Channel tunnel, perhaps he will put it down.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans his Department has to mitigate the danger at Crumley Corner on the A.1 road north of Coatham Mundeville.

Crumley Corner will be eliminated altogether when this section of A.1is diverted on a new alignment into the roundabout which is to be constructed at this point to take the northern terminal of the Darlington by-pass now under construction. We aim to start work on the roundabout in about nine months. In the meantime, we have done all we reasonably can to warn road users of the dangers at this bend by providing additional signs and marker posts.

Will the hon. Gentleman take it that I have in my hand a Press cutting, under the heading, "Appointment with Death", which reveals that within the list six years no fewer than ten fatal accidents have taken place at this particular spot? Another fatal accident occurred there only last week. Moreover, sixty-five other accidents occurred there within the last four years. What has the hon. Gentleman's Department been doing during the past few years about this danger spot which has involved so many fatal accidents? If we have to wait until such time as the new major by-pass road comes across and further accidents take place, the danger not being mitigated by the measures which have been taken, will not the people of the district be right to draw the conclusion that the Ministry is not interested at all?

The hon. Gentleman's figures are not exactly the same as mine. The figuresI have show that, in the last four years, there has, in fact, been only one fatal accident. My right hon. Friend is going ahead as fast as he can to improve the situation, and he has put up additional signs and marker posts to indicate to those using the road that this is a danger spot.

asked the Minister of Transport when work is to start on the Stowmarket relief road.

:We cannot say yet when this scheme will be included in the trunk road programme.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that this relief road has been under discussion now for six or seven years and that this Answer will be most disappointing to all my enterprising constituents in this area? Many fatal accidents and many minor ones occur on this very narrow road, which is the access of the export trade from the Midlands to the ports of Felixstowe and Harwich. Will he look into the matter again?

My right hon. Friend will bear in mind what my hon. and gallant Friend has said in considering an extension of the programme, but at present we cannot give any indication of when it will come in.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to replace the level crossing at Claydon, East Suffolk, on the A.45 by a bridge.

No, Sir. We propose instead to build a by-pass of Claydon which will be carried over the railway.

This is more welcome news about a by-pass round the level crossing, but has my hon. Friend any idea when this major extension will take place?

We do not like to forecast when it will be possible to include this work.

asked the Minister of Transport upon what basis of calculation he requires the amendment of the Holford Plan for Piccadilly Circus in order to provide for approximately 7,000 vehicles per hour of daylight.

The basis was the general agreement between the London County Council as planning and road improvement authority and myself that major junctions in London should provide for a capacity of either 60 per cent.over the level of traffic in 1960, or the foreseeable capacity of the approach roads, whichever is the less. We estimate that the approach roads to Piccadilly Circus will be able to handle 50 per cent. more traffic than in 1960. If the Circus cannot match this capacity, it will become increasingly jammed.

:First, how did it come about that Sir William Holford was asked in his original remit to make provision for 5,000 vehicles only per hour? Second, if traffic considerations are to be paramount in this matter, what makes the Minister think that even 7,000 will be a sufficient figure in, say, twenty years? Will the right hon. Gentleman now, in the light of the Buchanan Report, beat a graceful retreat and accept the plan as originally submitted to him?

I must make clear that the Minister of Housing and Local Government and I never said, as Sir William Holford alleges, that traffic must be the first consideration in the Circus. That was never said. All we said to the London County Council was that we thought that the Holford scheme made inadequate provision for traffic and that 50 per cent.—not more than that—reserve capacity should be provided for this reason. All the roads radiating from Piccadilly Circus now have an extra 50 per cent. capacity and, if they have that 50 per cent. capacity and it is not matched by Piccadilly Circus, the result will be chaotic.

Will the Minister tell us why the original remit to Sir William Holford was to permit a flow of traffic of 5,000 vehicles per hour? Surely, that was done with the Minister's knowledge, and, if it had not been so, all this difficulty would not have arisen.

:I repeat what I said to the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson). We said to the London County Council that we thought that the Holford scheme made inadequate provision for traffic and that there should be 50 per cent.—not more—extra capacity reserve for traffic.

:Will the Minister answer the first part of my supplementary question and my right hon. Friend's supplementary question? Why was the original remit for a circulation of 5,000 and not 7,000 vehicles per hour?

:I have always asked for the 50 per cent. As far as I am concerned, I shall not use the funds allocated to me for road traffic for something which actually reduces road capacity.

asked the Minister of Transport what special steps he is taking to improve the various trunk roads which feed the A.20 and which will be under increased pressure when a fixed Channel link is completed.

The effects of a fixed Channel link on our present plans for road improvements have been studied, and will be taken into account in reaching a decision.

:Will my right hon. Friend take steps to improve these feeder roads before the fixed Channel link is completed, because they are already under great pressure?

That does not deal with quite the same thing as did the original Question, if I may say so with respect.

asked the Minister of Transport what report he has received from the Atomic Energy Authority about the construction of a nuclear-powered merchant fleet; if he proposes to implement the recommendations; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport whether Her Majesty's Government's policy of modernisation will include the entry of Great Britain into the field of nuclear-powered merchant shipping assisted by Government finance.

Courtney asked the Minister of Transport when he intends to place an order for the first British prototype nuclear-powered merchant ship.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on the reactor to be used in a nuclear-powered merchant ship.

I cannot add to the Answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) on 27th November.

May we take it that the Government's advisers have told them that it is feasible to go on with the construction of an atomic ship? Two atomic ships are already in existence—a cargo vessel belonging to the United States and an icebreaker belonging to Russia. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if we build in quantity, these ships will be much cheaper than building in units and that the Government are the only people who can proceed with such a project?

:A working group is going into the technical aspects of this project and so far its technical assessment is proving difficult. We must give it time to do the job properly. The assessment has not yet been received by the Government.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that this kind of Answer has been given year after year? Is it not time that we changed the working group and the leadership of the Atomic Energy Authority? Is it not time he got it into his head—I am sure that he has now—that unless we produce some reactor we shall lose the race in the world? Is he further aware that I and a great many others feel that we could triumph in this matter if he would only put a few bombs under some of those who ought to get on with the job and that he should cease his delaying answers?

:I agree that some things do delay progress but I must remind my hon. Friend that the mere fact that this Answer has been given several times does not make it any the less true.

asked the Minister of Transport what study he has made of the 630A marine nuclear reactor developed in the United States of America; and if this system will be evaluated by the working group on marine reactor research in comparison with the Vulcain and IBR reactors.

:This system is one of those currently being evaluated by the Working Group.

Is the Minister aware that this 630A marine nuclear reactor is being ordered by marine commercial firms in the United States for incorporation in vessels about to be launched, and is there not a grave danger that this country will fall behind the United States in the development of reactors for commercial marine use? Should not the Ministertake a decision very shortly on the type of reactor to be used in British commercial merchant ships using an atomic propulsion system?

:As I said in reply to an earlier Question, a Working Group is making a technical assessment. One of the reasons why it is taking longer than otherwise would be the case is that it is looking, not only at the Vulcain and IBR reactors, but at an improved version of the United Kingdom Mitchell design, and three American designs as well. If one does that, it obviously means that one will take longer.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will introduce legislation to bring the Elder Brethren of Trinity House under the full control of Her Majesty's Government.

No, Sir. I see no reason to do this, but if the hon. Member would let me know if he has any particular point in mind I should be glad to consider it.

:Will the Minister bear in mind that along the eight miles stretch of coast on the south side of the Land's End peninsula, during the past 12 years, 21 ships have been lost, 39 lives have been lost, and 28 men have been saved? Did the right hon. Gentleman see Mr. Christopher Brasher's B.B.C. television item a few weeks ago in which he told the full story of these terrible tragedies and of the inactivity or refusal of the Elder Brethren of Trinity House to do anything about them? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that all Cornish-men are very angry at this story, and will he, at least, receive a deputation from the fishermen concerned?

I did not see the broadcast to which the hon. Gentleman refers. If he will give me notice of his rather long supplementary question, I will certainly consider it.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that we are extremely pleased to see with us here this afternoon the most distinguished of the Elder Brethren of Trinity House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill)? Will the Minister use his good offices in the matter—this happens to be in my constituency—and will he, perhaps, look at a recording of that television programme, in which I took part? I hope that my right hon. Friend will examine the question again, as there is no light on the coast of Cornwall between Penlee and the Lizard, and all the casualties which have occurred have been of foreign vessels. As Trinity House says that it is its job to look after foreign-going traffic, it is most important that the matter be looked at again.

Now that I know that my hon Friend appeared in the programme, I am reinforced in my determination to see a recording, if it is possible. I promise my hon. Friend that I shall go into this. In response to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I am sure that the entire House is glad to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) in his place.

Will the Minister reconsider his answer to me? Although they may be foreign lives, they are the lives of men. Will the Minister bring the Elder Brethren of Trinity House wholly under his control?

:I shall look at the exchange of views, and I shall certainly go into the matter. If the hon. Gentleman has any further information and cares to write to me, I shall be greatly obliged.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that holiday cruising on canals is becoming increasingly popular; and if he will give a general direction, inthe public interest, to the Inland Waterways Board to clear waterways which are now silting up and becoming unusable and unsightly and to put them in a fit condition for such traffic

:I do not think it necessary or appropriate to give such a direction. As I told the House on 31st July, the Board is examining all aspects of the future use of the inland waterways for which it is responsible.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of canals are being silted up and their gateways becoming beyond repair, while a large number of people are anxious to use them for commercial purposes, cruising or angling? Will he see whether something can be done before they become eyesores and rubbish tips?

The assets of the waterways were vested in the present management only eleven months ago. It promised to report on this by about the end of the year. I have seen a draft of the report and an announcement will be made shortly. I must await the report, but in the meantimeit may give the hon. Member some pleasure to know that, under Section 64 of the Transport Act, waterways must be maintained in at least the condition they were in in November, 1961.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give special consideration to the case of the Kennet and Avon Canal which cuts across beautiful countryside and is admirable for cruising purposes?

That is one of the canals dealt with in the report.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that many traffic accidents are due to the absence of adequate indicator signals on trailers behind heavy lorries; and whether he will introduce regulations to make the fitting of such direction indicators compulsory.

During 1961 the number of heavy goods vehicles involved in serious accidents while towing was 130, but information on how many of the trailers lacked direction indicators is not available. The Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, 1963, contain new provisions about direction indicators fitted to vehicles registered after August, 1965. These include a requirement that any large trailer towed by a motor vehicle so fitted shall itself be fitted with direction indicators. I wish to have some experience of the working of the new requirements before making it compulsory for any motor vehicle to be fitted with direction indicators.

Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that there is a continuing danger from these long trailers which, at the moment, have no traffic indicators to show when they are turning, and that a number of accidents are still occurring because of this? Will he consider bringing in new regulations in the interests both of other road users and of the drivers of these heavy lorries with trailers, who have to use hand signals at present?

:I appreciate the point and there is no doubt that this does constitute a problem. I have already made some regulations and I should like to see how they work. I can assure my right hon. Friend that we shall not be slow in this matter.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that a number of these drivers use flashing head lights as signals and that the signals are not understood by many motorists, including myself? Will he make regulations or proposals on how the signals could be understood?

:I do not think so. Each truck driver has his own particular system but I noticed, when we were having tests, for heavy diesel smoke, that although we caught quite a number of people in the first hour we saw very few smoking diesel engines thereafter.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's Department studied the very efficient arrangements in America for signals on the backs of heavy goods vehicles and trailers?

Yes. We have also studied systems on the Continent where some heavy trailers are festooned with lights at the back.

asked the Minister of Transport how many persons are on the waiting list for driving tests; what is the longest waiting period for applicants; and if he will recruit more driving-test examiners in order to reduce the waiting; period.

There are 388,450 persons on the waiting list. The average waiting period is 10–11 weeks and the longest waiting period is 16 weeks, at certain centres in the Metropolitan area. Arrangements have been made to recruit additional examiners for that area.

:Does not the Minister consider that it indicates an undue delay when so many people are waiting for a driving examination? Has he thought of making the conditions for examiners more attractive so that additional officers might be recruited in order to minimise the delay?

It is not a question of making their conditions more attractive but of being able to recruit men who are well qualified to do this rather difficult job. They have to attain a standard of skill which we cannot go below. Another difficulty is that a number of people make appointments to take driving tests and do not keep them.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is a very serious problem in the Bournemouth area? Does not it indicate a welcome increase in the standard of living that there should be such a large demand for driving instruction?

I agree that Bournemouth is a special district and I have written to my hon. Friend on the subject. I agree that the affluent society is something of which we have no need to be ashamed.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he will take in view of public concern arising from the serious road crashes in South Wales, involving death and injury to persons and repeated damage to property, and from the evidence in the reports of his examiners to a public inquiry held in October last by the licensing authority for the South Wales Traffic Area, on the condition of over seventy vehicles of one firm, which showed numerous defects in their braking and steering systems and other shortcomings.

The defective vehicles were prohibited from further use until they were put into roadworthy condition. As a result of the action taken by the licensing authority, the firm's arrangements for vehicle maintenance have been substantially improved,

:Is not there accumulating evidence that motor transport vehicles carrying heavy loads are ill maintained,and does not the present state of affairs require that legislation should be introduced to ensure that maintenance is carried out only by qualified motor transport engineers?

To set up such qualifications would be a pretty big job. On the wider question of the condition of goods vehicles generally, I am now working out arrangements with a view to the inclusion of all goods vehicles within the annual testing scheme which at present applies only to goods vehicles up to 30 cwt.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will allow the cheap rate on public transport for children up to the age of 15 years to replace the age limit of 14 years, which was intended to apply when the school-leaving age was 14 years.

:The granting of fares concessions is a matter for the commercial judgment of the operator, subject where necessary to the approval of the appropriate controlling authority. The official school-leaving age is not the decisive factor in granting cheap travel to children. Almost all operators already allow cheap travel to and from school up to the age of 15 years.

:Does my hon. Friend agree that the cheap rate, if it is desirable for children between 13 and 14 years of age, is equally desirable for children between 14 and 15 years of age, when they are still the same schoolchildren? If he has no power in the matter, will my hon. Friend give an assurance that he will make recommendations to those who have in order to get things changed.

:My information is that most operators do what my hon. Friend asks. I should like to consider, in the light of any information which he can give to me, the proposition which he suggests should be put to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport what estimate his divisional road engineers have made for necessary road improvements as a result of the closure proposal for the former Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway.

I have not yet received the reports of the South Eastern and South Western Transport Users' Consultative Committees on hardship. Until I have studied them and any proposals they may make for alternative services I shall not be able to make a final assessment of the road implications. It would, in any case, be improper for me to comment on any aspect of the closure proposal before I reach a decision.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is increasing scepticism that these alternative road facilities will be provided? Obviously it will take some time in any case. Surely an assessment at this stage could be made?

Until I have the report of the statutory bodies set up to consider them, I cannot comment on alternative services.

:Will the right hon. Gentleman refuse to close stretches of railway until the Buchanan, Rochdale and Beeching Reports are considered as a whole? Is it not ludicrous to go on closing stretches of railway when, under a national plan later, he will find that it was wrong to have done so?

I cannot give that assurance. I will look at these alternative services and what the transport users'consultative committees say in their reports. What really interests people in my hon. Friend's constituency is the alternative arrangements that can be made between the two stations in mind. They do not want to know about a road survey between Glasgow and Edinburgh but what alternative services they are to get locally.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind when the time comes that the road system has been much neglected in this area and that a very great number of agricultural wide loads, in the technical sense—combine harvesters and balers—are at present delivered by railway and would have to be delivered by the existing narrow and inconvenient roads in the event of the closure of this line? This would be an acute problem from the moment the line closed, if it does.

:I can assure my hon. Friend that all these circumstances will be taken into account before a decision is reached.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will issue a general direction, in the public interest, to the Railways Board, requiring it to carry out repair work in its own workshops by its own staff, instead of placing work with outside contractors while laying off its own men as redundant.

No, Sir. It is for the Railways Board, in the exercise of its managerial responsibility, to decide where to place orders for the repair of its equipment.

:Does not the Minister realise that it makes a bad impression in workshops when skilled craftsmen, who have been trained there and have worked there for many years, see orders given out to others, while they are left idle and in fear of being discharged as redundant? Is not that a bad thing not only from the economic point of view regarding the railways, but also because of the waste of manpower and of skilledservants of the railways?

:The burden of contraction in railway repair work has been shared between private and public investment and the private sector has borne its share of the contraction.

Does not the Minister understand that his reply makes absolute nonsense? Is he aware that the Darlington railway works has been closed, but a new firm has come into the same premises, a private firm, and is doing work almost identical with that which the railway workshops did? Is he aware that this is part of the Beeching drive? Will he have another look at the matter and allow skilled railway shopmen to carry on their own craft in a continuity of service, instead of there being the upheavals which have been brought about by his policy?

:No, Sir. Repairs are a matter for management and are closely bound up with day-to-day operations. As Minister, I should not interfere in matters of repairs because it would infringe managerial responsibility.

:Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us represent constituents who work in privately-owned railway shops as well as constituents who work in railway workshops? Is he aware that I am equally concerned about the employment of all my constituents?

I am aware of that and I quite agree with my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the cost to the Railways Board, in the latest convenient 12-month period, of labour and materials, respectively, employed in railway workshopsin rectifying defective bearings in diesel locomotives and other defects in stock supplied to the railways by private firms

The hon. Member's Question relates to commercial matters on which I should not feel justified in asking the British Railways Board to provide information.

Does not the Minister's Answer conflict with the arrangements made just before the Recess that statistics of this kind from nationalised industries would be provided? Would he consult his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House about the provision of this type of information? Secondly, would he ask the Railways Board to look closely at work of this kind being done in Swindon?

I do not think that my reply conflicts with that earlier decision, but I will look at the matter again. I will certainly consult my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.

asked the Minister of Transport what machinery exists for coordination between the Secretary of State for Scotland and himself on railway closure policy.

The machinery is the normal one of direct consultation between Departments. I also consult my right hon. Friend on every proposed rail passenger closure in Scotland individually.

:Does the Minister realise that some of us examining what is happening in Scotland in this connection find it difficult to believe that there is any machinery at all? For example, three new towns are being completely deprived of any kind of rail transport. Does it not make nonsense of the kind of policy which the Secretary of State for Scotland is supposed to be pursuing if the Minister's Department appears to be cutting his right hon. Friend's feet from under him?

The hon. Gentleman is making a lot of assumptions which cannot be justified. The Question asks what machinery exists for co-ordination between the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself. I can give the hon. Gentleman my personal assurance that I see my right hon. Friend on every single individual closure and consult with him.

:But does not the Minister understand that we find it very difficult to think that any real co-ordination exists when the Secretary of State has promised to set up a Scottish Transport Board to advise him about contemplated closures and, before the membership of that Board is even selected, closures are going on without its recommendations being submitted to the Secretary of State? This is really quite wrong, since the Secretary of State has committed himself to having such reports before he takes action.

The closures are only proposed. I repeat that there is this consultation, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman, who is generous in all matters, will accept my word in this respect.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will introduce legislation to alter the present procedure at public hearings of the transport users' consultative committees when dealing with rail closures, in order to give objectors an opportunity to reply to points made by the Railways Board representative.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will review the procedure relating to the holding and the conduct of hearings under Section 56(13) of the Transport Act, 1962, by transport users' consultative committees, with a view to introducing legislation to standardise their practice.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will introduce legislation to ensure that the procedure at hearings in connection with railway closures will allow for the cross-examination by objectors of the representatives of the Railways Board with regard to the financial and other information submitted by the Board to the committee concerned.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will introduce legislation to ensure that objectors at public hearings of the transport users' consultative committee be given an opportunity to reply to points made by the Railways Board representative.

The transport users' consultative committees in general determine their own procedure. Committees allow objectors to ask any questions and make any statements relevant to the committee's functions. But it is not their function to consider the financial aspects of closure proposals.

:Would not the Minister agree that it is supremely important that the general public should retain confidence in these public hearings? Is he aware that this confidence is being lost because all the objections are heard, and the railway spokesman replies, but there is no opportunity at these hearings to deal with anything apart from hardship? I am sure that the Minister will agree that if the public are losing confidence he should make some change in the legislation to enable a short preliminary statement to be made by the railway spokesmen.

Those making objections before the T.U.C.C. are really allowed a fair hearing. They can make statements and ask questions, which are relevant to the T.U.C.C. which considers hardship and alternative services under Section 56 of the Act that this House passed, so the question of financial statements is really outside the purview of the T.U.C.C.

I hope that the Minister will look al: this matter again, as there is a growing feeling that this procedure is becoming quite farcical. First, will he make sure that, as the Statute states, the hearing is in public? The only way in which that can properly be done is for the committee to advertise to the public where and when the inquiry is being held. Secondly, the Minister must surely agree that in order to give objectors a proper opportunity, the committee ought to sit in a place and at a time suitable to the objectors rather than to the convenience of the committee. Third, the order in which evidence is taken should be such as to give a fair hearing to the people concerned. Further, will the Minister look into the question of the presence of people who, as I see it, have no right by Statute to be there?

These meetings are held in public. There is no statutory requirement that they should be, but the spirit of the Act is that they should be held in public. In the case of two meetings in Scotland, on 11th October and 18th October, the Press was not formally invited, but all the objectors who had laid objections—and who are, by law, the only people entitled to give evidence to the T.U.C.C.—were individually notified of the hearing, so they were not deprived in any way. As regards the next part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I do not think that any committee—and I go right through all their minutes—has ever refused to hear anyone who has said that he was a user of the transport services.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all those who have attended these committee meetings as objectors or observers are very dissatisfied with the procedure at them? Will he have a complete review of the procedure, instead of allowing each committee to determine its own rules and regulations? Is the Minister aware that there is particular objection to the fact that the Railways Board produces what is often quite contentious information, and that there is no opportunity for objectors to cross-examine the Railway Board's representatives on the information they are putting forward?

If the information put forward at one of these T.U.C.C. hearings is germane and relative to the scope of the inquiry, statements may be made and questions asked—[Hon. Members: "No."]—yes, they can. It depends on the chairman of each committee deciding on the procedure he thinks is right. If questions and statements are irrelevant and prolix, he does not allow them, but it is up to him.

Is the Minister aware that it is precisely the scope of questioning that needs looking into, because many districts where closures are envisaged have become development districts? That leads to shift in population, which means that the consultative committees must be more flexible in their hearings than in the past?

The hon. Member misconceives the function of a T.U.C.C. It has to decide on hardship and alternative services only. If there is any other point than hardship I have asked the local councils to send a letter to me, with copies to the other Departments concerned—on such matters as industrial development, housing estates, and so on.

:Will my right hon. Friend look at this again? He knows of the closures announced north of Inverness. Last August, the Secretary of State for Scotland announced that there was to be a Highland Transport Board. Surely these closures north of Inverness should go before that Board, as there are many other factors beside hardship to be looked at.

As I say, no closures have been made. There are proposals for closures, but they have to go through the statutory machinery. I shall consult the Secretary of State for Scotland to take all these additional points into account.

I Will the Minister clear up an important point? The Act says that the transport users'consultative committees can look into matters of hardship and report to the Minister. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that hardship includes loss of prospec- tive employment in an area? If he agrees that it does, the committees should surely be allowed to consider that point, take evidence on it, and make recommendations on it to the Minister.

:It is hardship to the individual user of those particular lines now. Each user knows perfectly well whether there will be hardship for him in a particular closure. He is then entitled to make any representations he likes, and the T.U.C.C. listens to him and makes what judgment it likes. It then comes to me, and the other considerations are taken into account.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my point—perhaps he did not catch it. Possible economic developments in an area which may be jeopardised by a closure is surely hardship to the people in the area, because it means they may lose jobs that they might otherwise have had. Is it not, therefore, right that under Section 56 the committees should be able to consider that aspect?

:The T.U.C.C. considers travelling hardship to the individual, who can perfectly well assess for himself the likely hardship to him when a line is proposed to be closed, and that hardship is taken into account. I consult my right hon. Friends, the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Labour on questions of local employment.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.