asked the Postmaster-General when it is intended to improve the present unsatisfactory reception of the British Broadcasting Corporation television in the Aysgarth and Leyburn area; and what the estimated cost is.

As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. T. W. Jones) on 4th December, the B.B.C. are continuing to plan improvements and extensions of their television coverage by means of low-power stations, of which the first three batches are in hand. We understand that they are now preparing a fourth list of such stations, but, until my right hon. Friend receives their proposals, he is sorry he cannot comment with regard to individual areas.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there is virtually no television reception in this area and that the inhabitants object to paying £4 for nothing? Will he try to make sure that they are included on the new list?

Naturally, I take that into account. I think that it would be of interest to the House to know that when the present satellite stations already authorised are in operation the B.B.C.'s first television programme will be available to almost 99·5 per cent. of the population. This is no mean achievement and is probably better than that in any other country.

asked the Postmaster -General whether he will consult the Independent Television Authority with a view to the curtailment of advertising, particularly in children's viewing time, directed at children.

No, Sir. I consulted the Authority during the debates on the Television Act, 1963, on advertisements affecting children. With the assistance of its Advertising Advisory Committee, the I.T.A. has drawn up rules to ensure that advertisements seen by children will not be harmful. These rules, which were published in the Authority's Report and Accounts for 1962–63, are strictly enforced.

Exactly what is meant by "harmful"? Does "harmful" include advertisements which are intended to get small children to persuade their parents to buy things which their parents may not be able to afford? Is not that injurious to family harmony and happiness?

I think it might be if that were to occur. I have not seen any evidence of that. If my hon. Friend has any particular cases in mind, I shall be very glad to discuss them with the authorities.

asked the Postmaster-General what progress is being made towards the establishment of a colour television service in this country; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Postmaster-General what progress is being made towards the broadcasting of colour television.

As HON. MEMBERS know, a choice has to be made between three systems, and it is highly desirable that European countries should choose the same system, otherwise we shall be unable to exchange colour programmes with them and export opportunities will be reduced. There is to be a meeting in London in February of the appropriate international agency, which I hope will lead to an agreed recommendation about adopting a common system for Europe.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that as a country with one of the leading television services in the world we ought to be taking a lead in this matter and not necessarily wait for other European countries to make their decision? Would he not also agree that perhaps overall the American system may suit our needs best and may be cheapen than the German P.A.L. system and the French Secam system?

Any suggestion that we are dragging our feet in the matter of colour television is quite wrong. It is vitally important to the future of our radio industry that we should, if possible, have a system which is common to Europe, because, if we do not have that, our opportunities for exporting both programme material and radio components will be much less than they otherwise would be.

Will the Postmaster-General give an assurance that he will do all that he possibly can to try to put us in the van of progress in colour television? Is it not the case that we have lagged behind, because colour television is already being shown in parts of the United States? Does not he agree that it is desirable and important that we should take the lead in this matter?

I am in no doubt whatever that we have taken the best initiative that we can. The number of people in America who see colour television is less than 1 per cent. of all viewers. The sets are very expensive indeed. I am sure that we have played this at the right pace so that by about 1965 we shall have colour television in this country and, I hope, at prices which people will be able to afford.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is about six years ago that Members saw samples of colour television in the House? Is there a chance that there will be colour television during my lifetime?

Assuming, as I do, that my hon. Friend survives about another eighteen months, yes.

Is it not a fact that a sub-committee of experts of the European broadcasting services who have been examining the matter of European compatibility in colour television should have reported by now suggesting what would be the best colour system? Has not the right hon. Gentleman or the B.B.C. yet made up their minds whether it shall be N.T.S.C., P.A.L. or Secam? Unless they make up their minds very quickly for the spring meeting of the International Radio Consultative Committee, the timetable the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned for introducing colour television in 1965 will not be achieved.

These discussions have been going on for some time and the Post Office and the B.B.C. have played their respective parts. We are hoping that agreement will be reached at European level in February of the coming year.

asked the Postmaster-General if, with a view to preventing licence evasion, he will introduce legislation to compel all retailers of wireless and television sets to report each sale or rental to the Post Office authorities.

No, Sir. Any advantage that might be gained from such a measure would be outweighed by practical difficulties and by increased costs.

Can the Postmaster-General say how much money was spent by his Department in the last financial year in attempting to detect non-licence holders?

Not without notice, but it is quite a substantial amount. I must add that, if we were to do as the Question suggests, it would impose a very heavy burden on the radio industry, and an even larger one on the Post Office. The biggest practical difficulty inherent in this suggestion is that most people who purchase or hire new sets at present are already licensed in respect of old sets.

Has my right hon. friend made any effort to find out how much income has been lost to the B.B.C. in this way and has he made any calculation of the effect that this proposal would have in increasing the B.B.C.'s revenue?

No doubt it would have some effect in increasing the B.B.C.'s revenue, but it would also have the converse effect of increasing the expenditure of the Post Office on administration. That, in turn, would react against the B.B.C. Our present measures to prevent evasion are proving very successful. In the first ten months of this year, about 300,000 people took out new licences for the first time.

What sample research has the Post Office done into the so-called practical difficulties of implementing this proposal? Is he aware that most people who have considered this matter cannot see why there is any difficulty in enforcing this very simple rule, which would save the right hon. Gentleman's Department considerable detection difficulties?

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think he has considered all the complications which would arise. If we were to do this, we should have, first, to place an obligation on all the radio dealers in the trade. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Obviously. Substantial costs would clearly be incurred in making sure that that radio dealers met their obligations and in checking against licence records the information supplied by the dealers. Most of this work would be abortive because most people already have licences.

asked the Postmaster-General how many microwave relay stations have been, or are being, con- structed in Scotland; and what proportion of the additional 37 such stations to be constructed in the next five years will be built there.

The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is seventeen. Of the additional 37 stations mentioned in our recent White Paper, six will be in Scotland.

Has the hon. Gentleman considered whether that number is adequate? Will he give the utmost consideration to advancing the programme of construction in order to help employment prospects in Scotland?

The difficulty is that we need the relay stations only to transmit messages from A to B. Therefore, we are limited in the number that we can build. However, I will take into account the hon. Gentleman's point. There is not a great deal of work involved in these towers, but we estimate that the cost of the six new stations will be about £500,000, which is a bit of help.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will consult the Cinematograph Films Council about the terms and conditions for the exhibition of feature films on experimental pay-television services.

Consultation with the Cinematograph Films Council is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development. Because of the Board of Trade's concern with the film industry I am, as I told the House on 11th December, consulting my right hon. Friend about the showing of cinema films on pay-television.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that the Films Council is about to report to his right hon. Friend on the subject of monopoly practices in the cinema trade and is faced with serious and considerable complaints about the long delays in releasing British films? Will he, therefore, keep an open mind about the terms and conditions of showing feature films on pay-television because of the assistance which might be given to the film-producing industry?

I do not want to encroach on the domain of my right hon. Friend, but I freely admit that this is a difficult and complicated matter and I shall certainly have regard to the considerations which the hon. Member has mentioned.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the inadequate public telephone facilities on the Caerau and Ely Racecourse housing estates in Cardiff; and what steps he proposes to take.

My right hon. Friend intends to provide two more telephone kiosks on these estates as soon as suitable sites have been obtained, we hope at an early date.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Can I look forward to these telephones being installed by January?

I would not go so far as to give any particular date, but they certainly will be in at the earliest possible date.

asked the Postmaster-General how many private telephones in Aberdeen are in use; how many applicants are on the waiting list; and how these figures compare with those for each of the last 10 years at the corresponding dates.

As the Answer contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report. The present waiting list is 18 compared with 1,354 in 1953.

Does the Minister realise that the telephone system is of the utmost importance for business and social contacts in the north of Scotland, and will he, therefore, avoid copying the obnoxious policy of Dr. Beeching in the case of the railways, who is destroying valuable social and business contacts between the people there, and take steps to avoid that kind of obnoxious conduct in the case of the telephone?

It is not for me to comment. Our aim is to make certain that communications will be the best possible for anyone who wants a telephone. This is our aim, and I believe that, in the main, in future this is what we shall achieve.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will seek powers to make it illegal to use the telephone service for the purposes of general sales and advertising promotions in respect of private residences.

No, Sir.

Is not the Minister aware that that reply will cause grave alarm to many telephone subscribers? This pestilence of ringing people up is an incursion into the privacy of the home. Why should this American type of advertising be carried out in this country at the expense of ordinary telephone subscribers who want to be left in peace and who, having paid the rent for their telephones, are entitled to be left in peace?

Telephone calls which are made for selling or advertising purposes are not an offence under the present law. Although there may be certain cases which are offensive to certain subscribers, I think that, on the whole, we are right to encourage the use of the telephone.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that I have received a lot of correspondence on this matter? I have had one letter from a lady who had to go into a mental home. She was pestered by the Encyclopaedia Britannica four times, asking for her husband, who had recently died. I know of many other cases. One case was referred to me by an officer of the Worcestershire Constabulary, following the same sort of lines. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this is a very serious hardship which is extending throughout the country and it ought to be dealt with at once, whether or not he has powers? Will he look at it again?

I am willing to look at it again, but provided that this sort of call is made with a reasonable sense of decency and propriety I see nothing wrong with it.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that this is a growing practice now and that the Encyclopaedia Britannica actually rang me up and suggested that it had the support of the House? I know that it was only a girl who said that, but the fact remains that the answer which the right hon. Gentleman has given will encourage firms like this to continue to say that they have the support of the House to do it. It is a bad way of trying to sell commodities to ring up people who are paying a considerable amount by way of rent for their telephones.

In a general sense, I should certainly be opposed to interference with telephone calls that are made for the purpose of selling goods. If it should turn out in certain cases that those calls are not made in a way that respects the feelings and susceptibilities of the subscriber, I am perfectly willing to do something.

I give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Postmaster-General what special action he intends to take to reduce the waiting lists for telephone installations by providing more telephone facilities in the districts designated as growth areas in the White Paper on Central Scotland.

There are already plans for providing more exchange equipment and cables in these areas. The position is now being reviewed with a view to speeding up matters in accordance with the aims announced in the recent White Paper.

Can the Postmaster-General give us any idea just how soon they will catch up with the great lag in many areas of Scotland, especially in the bell indicated in the Question? Is he fully seized of the importance of his Department's initiative matching that of the local authorities, which are spending a great deal of money? Is he also aware of how necessary it is that when industrialists, executives and key workers come into an area they should have phone facilities provided in their homes and in the factories so that communications there will be as good as the best down here?

Yes, I am aware of all those considerations. I think that the hon. Gentleman may like to know that in those parts of Central Scotland, which are served by about fifty exchanges, there are at present about 50,000 subscribers and only about 500 people are waiting for telephones. We are speeding up our plans. If the hon. Gentleman would like to have detailed information as to what we are doing, I will gladly write to him.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consult the Minister of Transport with a view to providing more emergency telephone services on motorways in remote country districts where there are no houses in sight.

It is entirely a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to decide whether these telephones should be installed. They are, of course, different from public telephones, since they are connected only with police centres. My responsibility is to see that the service is provided when an order has been given.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for appearing to show willing, but can he, as the Question asks, liaise with his right hon. Friend, who appears to be unwilling to provide safety telephones on the Maidstone by-pass?

I am always willing to talk to my right hon. Friend, although strictly speaking the initiative should not be for me.

asked the Postmaster-General why the number of no pick-up calls is increasing on the Feltham exchange; and what steps are being taken to improve the position.

These difficulties have been caused mainly by a heavy load on the exchange. Extra lines to central London have now been provided and a special overhaul of the equipment at the Feltham exchange has just been completed. From now on the service should be very much better.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that information. Would he bear in mind that when a subscriber gets a no-pick-up call he does not report it to the engineers in the usual way? It is, therefore, obvious that the engineers must be told to keep a special watch and ensure that all the maintenance machinery and junctions are in working order so that no-pick-up calls do not occur?

Yes.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the Kirkcaldy Telephone Exchange is in a growth area as designated in the White Paper on Central Scotland; and what steps he intends to take to speed up the provision of subscriber trunk dialling in this area.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend expects to provide subscriber trunk dialling at Kirkcaldy early in 1966. We are sorry it is not possible to provide the facility earlier, but by that time 90 per cent. of the subscribers in the Central Fife growth area should have S.T.D., compared with 70 per cent. in the United Kingdom as a whole.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the areas of local calls were extended the price of a call from Kirkcaldy to Edinburgh was increased; and, in view of the fact that it will be 1966 before S.T.D. is introduced into the Kirkcaldy area, will the hon. Gentleman not consider reintroducing a special charge for calls between Kirkcaldy and Edinburgh which are of great importance to the commercial interests in the area?

I will have a look at that point.

Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, in conformity with paragraph 11 of the recent White Paper, the growth area in Central Scotland will have S.T.D. with the rest of the country completely by 1970?

It is our aim to carry out what is said in the White Paper, and this we shall certainly do.

asked the Postmaster-General what proportion of telephone subscribers in Scotland enjoy subscriber trunk dialling facilities; and by how much that proportion will increase in the next three years.

Thirty-four per cent. of telephone subscribers in Scotland now have STD and, if all goes well, 70 per cent. are expected to have it by the end of 1966.

Then that means that we shall have in the Highlands exactly the same percentage as Central Scotland has been promised?

It means that in Scotland as a whole 70 per cent. of subscribers will have subscriber trunk dialling by the end of 1966.

But the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in answer to Question No. 17 he said that he hoped that the figure would be, I think, 90 per cent. in the growth areas, which will be getting preferential treatment over the next few years, which means that we shall have subscriber trunk dialling practically all over Scotland evenly spread at 70 per cent. The right hon. Gentleman must keep up to his promise.

That is true. By the end of 1970 the figure will be almost 100 per cent.

asked the Postmaster-General how much of the proposed £900 million to be invested in the inland telephone service in the next five years will be invested in Scotland.

On present estimates, based on the expected demand for telephone service, about 8 per cent. of the total will be invested in the telephone service in Scotland.

Does that mean that the figure of 1½ per cent. per year over these years which the hon. Gentleman gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) last week will remain at that level? If so, it is an extremely unsatisfactory position for Scotland.

As I said, that is our basis on present estimates, but, obviously, if we can make any progress in this respect we will certainly do so.

Can my hon. Friend say whether that figure includes cables? Is it not a fact that an increasing proportion of Post Office cables, excluding paper-cored insulated cables, is being made in Scotland, particularly in the Renfrew, East constituency, which is in a development district?

It is quite true that Scottish Cables Limited are making a considerable amount. [HON. MEMBERS: "How much?"] I cannot give the exact amount without notice.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Scotland is in need of better treatment than this? Since 1955, Scotland has badly lagged behind in telephone developments compared with England and Wales, and particularly Northern Ireland. It has the lowest rate of growth in terms of telephone penetration and the engineering force has grown much more slowly than elsewhere. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore consider making a sales drive to stimulate demand in Scotland? If it is successful, Scotland may be able to take a bigger proportion of the planned investment.

We are running a sales drive throughout the country and not just in Scotland, but obviously the spread of the use of the telephone is tied up with a number of other things. Naturally, we want to get all these problems put right. When we do, greater use of the telephone will automatically follow.

asked the Postmaster-General to what extent he continues to pay regard to non-commercial considerations in the provision and siting of public telephone kiosks.

I have regard both to public amenity and to public finance. It is rare for a telephone kiosk to be refused where there is a clear need for one. At the same time there is a limit to what we can do in view of our current loss of more than £3 million a year on public kiosks.

Can the Minister indicate by what percentage the provision of public telephone kiosks is less now than it was, say, five years ago?

On the contrary, the provision of kiosks has not fallen but has increased, and we have about 75,000 kiosks throughout the country, which is very substantially greater than in any other European country.

Will the Postmaster-General add to the 75,000 and make it 75,001 by putting one on the Wood head Road near where the former hon. Member for Rotherham was killed?

I will take note of that and see what I can do.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will now indicate an earlier completion date of the necessary work in the Stockport and Marple exchange telephone areas in order to connect the 205 applicants on the waiting list; what is the latest date on which a service will be provided for these people; and whether priority will be given to the 38 who have been waiting for more than two years.

The situation will be re-examined as part of the programme announced in the recent White Paper on the Inland Telephone Service, but I am sorry we cannot yet say what speeding up will be possible. Meanwhile, new cables are being laid and service is being given to the applicants now on the waiting list as plant becomes available. Many, including 24 of those waiting over two years, will have telephones within the next few weeks and the vast majority by the late summer of 1964.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this new hope will be very welcome indeed in these two districts?

asked the Postmaster-General on what date he intends to begin work to convert the Wallington, Surrey, telephone exchange from manual to fully-automatic working.

Present plans are to start the new Wallington automatic exchange building during 1965, and have the equipment in operation by 1968, but we will improve on this if we can.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that that is not a very satisfactory Answer? Is he aware that this exchange serves a very populous area? Would he undertake to look at this project again with a view to advancing the date if he possibly can?

In this case there are some difficulties, because till space is available for a new building we cannot carry on with it, and the space can be provided only after another building has been built to replace the postmen's district office. So we are in a little difficulty here, but we are not dragging our feet. Certainly with regard to equipment at the present moment it is rather old, but we have made special maintenance arrangements, and I am pleased to say from our reports that the average time to answer has gone down quite considerably over the recent past as a result of the special attention we have given to this point.

asked the Postmaster-General where in Shotts he proposes to erect a Crown post office; and when work will begin on its construction.

The Crown post office will be erected in Shottskirk Road, Dykehead. Construction work should begin in April, 1964.

Will the Assistant Postmaster-General ensure that it really does begin in April and that it is finished as quickly as possible, since this is a growth area and it would be a great help if there were adequate postal facilities in the area?

The hon. Lady raised this matter some time ago in a supplementary question. I promised that we would try to bring the scheme forward as much as possible. In fact, I have only been able to make marginal improvements, but I can assure her that the building will commence in April next year and we shall certainly seek to move forward as fast as possible.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will set up a Post Office factory in North Lanarkshire, for the repair and maintenance of telephone and telecommunication instruments; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. We are anxious to help the development areas as much as we can, but Post Office factories in their existing localities at London, Birmingham, South Wales and Edinburgh are expected to be adequate for all the foreseeable factory repair work. Minor repairs and maintenance work are usually done locally.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the Edinburgh factory does not touch the bulk of telephone repair work? Does he realise that there are over 800,000 telephone users in Scotland, and that when telephones need major overhauls they have to go on a circuitous journey of 1,000 miles to Wales and back? Is it not in everybody's interest to site a factory which will give employment to this area in North Lanarkshire which is both a development and a growth area?

We have excess repair capacity so far as factory space and labour are concerned, but I will bear in mind the hon. Gentleman's point.

asked the Postmaster-General what consideration he has given to the possibility of the Post Office itself producing in one or more of the vacant factories in the North East some of the telephone equipment which will be required for his recently announced expanded investment programme.

In general, the Post Office does not itself manufacture telephone equipment, but obtains this from the industry. My right hon. Friend believes that this policy, which is of long standing, is right. I should add that some of the factories engaged in manufacturing equipment for the Post Office are located in the North East.

When the Postmaster-General discussed his expansion programme with the firms who make the equipment—he informed me last week that he was keeping close liaison with them—did he ask them whether they would expand in the development areas? If he did, can he tell me what their answer was? If their answer was in the negative, can he say why, if the Government are really intent upon bringing employment to people who are at present unemployed in the development areas, the Government are inhibited and so doctrinaire about this policy?

All I can say is that some of the companies that carry out contracts for us have factories, for instance, in East Kilbride, Sunderland, Birtley, Hartlepool, Liverpool and Airdrie. They are some of the factories which are operated by contractors working on our behalf.

Could the hon. Gentleman give the percentage of the total amount of work which is done in the areas he has mentioned, so that we can see whether these expanding firms are making a contribution to providing additional employment in the development areas?

This information would be difficult for us to obtain, because the Post Office is an organisation which is asking for products to be manufactured. Naturally we give all assistance possible and special consideration to development areas, but I think it would be wrong for us to call upon each manufacturer to give us many more details which, in fact, are nothing to do with us.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will install a post office to serve the Wyrley Birch and Brookvale estates in Erdington, Birmingham.

I am looking into this matter and will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

I am grateful to know that the hon. Gentleman is looking into this matter. Will he bear in mind that considerable inconvenience is experienced by the residents of these areas as they have to walk long distances to obtain post office facilities? May I express the hope that he will expedite his consideration?

Yes. I have already had a look at the problem, and I see the point of the hon. Gentleman's question, but I should like a little more time before making a firm decision.

asked the Postmaster-General what part the Post Office is to play in the development of a universal satellite communications system.

The Post Office is undertaking further development of its highly successful satellite ground station at Goonhilly Down, which is generally regarded as the nearest approach so far to an operational station. The Post Office is also engaged in research and development work on the electronic equipment required for satellite communications, and it took part in the recently completed design study of satellites. The Post Office is also taking part in the international discussions now in progress.

I am obliged for that reply. Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the statement of the Assistant Postmaster-General on Friday, 6th December, when winding up the debate, was a statement of Government policy when he said that we are now playing a part in developing a universal satellite communications system? If that is so, could he explain what he means by "universal" and which countries are participating in this development of a universal system?

I think what my hon. Friend meant, quite rightly, was that by their very nature satellite communications are most economical when they are used on a world-wide basis. A single integrated world system is the right answer, provided the conditions we get are right.

The right hon. Gentleman is evading the issue. The Assistant Postmaster-General said that we are now playing a part in developing a universal satellite communications system. Has a decision been taken by the Government? The Light hill Report was sent to the Government many weeks ago, and British industrialists are now eagerly awaiting a decision on the Report. That being so, the Government ought to be taking steps to enlighten the whole of British industry which is interested in this development on exactly what part this country will play in the development of satellite communications.

What my hon. Friend had in mind is that we are having discussions on several fronts at the present time, first of all with our opposite numbers in the postal and telecommunications organisations in France, Germany and Italy. We are having conversations at a European conference—in fact, several have been held already—and, of course, with the Americans themselves. I expect there will be an exchange of views between the European conference on satellites and the American authorities early in 1964.

asked the Postmaster-General what proportion, in money terms, of the provision of trunks and junctions, subscribers' circuits, and local lines over the next five years will be categorised as telephone apparatus, and therefore subject to the bulk supply agreements.

Of the three classes of expenditure referred to in the hon. Member's Question only "subscribers' circuits" embody apparatus falling within the Telephone Apparatus Agreement. The best estimate I can make of expenditure on "subscribers' circuits" during the next five years is nearly £200 million, of which about a quarter will be on purchases under the Agreement.

Could the right hon. Gentleman tell the House exactly what contracts in terms of money will go to the eight firms which form the ring receiving 75 per cent. of the telephone apparatus agreements which are in operation for the next five years?

Certainly. The total expenditure under the three heads mentioned in the Question will amount to about £540 million, and of this I expect that, as near as makes no matter, £50 million will be spent on purchases under the bulk supply agreement for telephone apparatus.

asked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for increasing purchases of telephonic equipment in Scotland in the next few years.

asked the Postmaster-General what steps he has taken to ensure that increased orders for telephone equipment are placed with firms in areas designated as growth points or development districts.

The Post Office already gives special treatment to these areas through the scheme under which tenders from firms in development districts are given a measure of encouragement. Our Contracts Department also takes great care, when tenders are sought, to ensure that all suitable firms in development districts are given the opportunity to tender. These measures will continue and my right hon. Friend hopes the firms will take increasing advantage of them.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those measures might be quite inadequate to deal with the position because the bulk of the factories or firms making such equipment is concentrated in the South? Does he recall that on an earlier occasion he advised me that only 1 per cent. of Post Office equipment was purchased in Scotland? Will his Department use its very great purchasing power—about £900 million over the next few years—to ensure that development in this respect takes place in the parts of the country where it is most needed?

That is what we are attempting to do, but I think it important to point out that we investigate each year about 1,000 new applications from firms, or trade associations acting on their behalf, to make certain that they know the sort of things that we require, which cover a vast range, and we show them how they can tender for these things. If we feel that an organisation cannot produce the main body of a contract, we break clown its size. We go to a great deal of trouble to ensure that people in these parts are able to tender. If they can show that they are capable of carrying out the order, we go to a great deal of trouble to make sure that they get it, or part of it.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what consultations take place between his Department and the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development, who has a great responsibility for development in these areas? Also, can he say whether the firms in Scotland which supply this equipment are working to capacity and whether his Department has given them an assurance that, if they expand, further orders from his Department will be forthcoming?

We have said to all these industries that if they can show that they can quote competitive prices we are prepared to give them special consideration, as we do to all industries in the development areas. From what I have said earlier HON. MEMBERS will know that we are doing everything we possibly can to make sure that special consideration is given to any industry in a development area, and that tends to attract other industries to the area as well.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the inadequate post office facilities in the Vicarage Lane area of East Ham; and what proposals he has to remedy the situation.

I would agree that the distribution of post offices in this area is not as good as it might be. While I should not be justified in adding to their number, we will certainly consider altering their distribution as soon as a suitable opportunity occurs.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while I appreciate the consideration which he has already given to the question, the conditions and circumstances in the area are such as to warrant post office facilities in its own right and that it should not depend upon the fate of offices in neighbouring areas? Will the hon. Gentleman look into this aspect of the matter again?

Yes. As the hon. Member knows, I have paid particular attention to the problem, and I had hoped at one point that we had found a suitable way out. I will certainly look at the matter again and see whether we cannot find a way round it.

asked the Postmaster-General what reports he has received about the effect of increased book postage charges on the export of British books to foreign countries.

I understand that in certain countries the selling price of British books has been raised following the increase in charges for printed papers sent overseas by surface mail; but we have no information about the effect of this on the number of British books exported. In any case, for the reasons given in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson) on 18th November, my right hon. Friend does not see how he could have allowed the old rates, with the measure of subsidy which they involved, to continue.

Is the Minister aware that book exports are important not only in terms of the currency which they themselves earn, but also because they convey British ideas and often lead to purchases of equipment and other useful exports? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these increased charges appear to make British books uncompetitive compared with books from other countries? Will not he look at this matter again?

Yes, Sir. One of the major difficulties that we face is that if we are to carry out some of the social benefits that people expect from the G.P.O., we must have at least one department that is making a profit. Before 1st July, the reduced rate printed paper service was losing money at the rate of £1·7 million a year. Even with the increase in rates, the service is still running at a loss of about £½ million a year. The pre-1st July loss on overseas printed paper services as a whole was of the order of £3 million and it is still running at nearly half that amount. That is our difficulty. I am, however, seized of the point made by the hon. Member.

asked the Postmaster-General which local post offices in Scotland have approached the local education authority to obtain the release of children from school to assist in Christmas postal work.

Ten head postmasters in Scotland have found it necessary to obtain the agreement of the local education authority and to approach schools about the release of children from school to assist in Christmas postal work. These are: Ardrossan, Dunbar, Edinburgh, Fort William, Galashiels, Glasgow, Hawick, Inverness, Oban, Paisley.

Is the Assistant Postmaster-General really saying that in a place like Glasgow—and, perhaps, in Ardrossan and other places—there are not people unemployed who would like to have this kind of employment? Is not this quite wrong on grounds both of educational principle and of giving employment to those who need it most?

First, we have to satisfy the authorities that no alternative suitable labour is available; then, we have to get the permission of the parents and, obviously, of the children themselves. While I regret that we should have to keep children, even in this case, where they are over 16 years of age, away from school, it is one of those things that we do only when no suitable alternative labour is available.

Has the Minister consulted the Ministry of Labour in these areas?

Yes, we are always in close contact with the Ministry of Labour.

I did not ask that. I asked whether the Minister had specifically consulted the Ministry of Labour concerning employment possibilities of people who are unemployed in these areas at this particular time. Has he done this?

There has been no special consultation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—with the Ministry of Labour. [Interruption.] I will certainly bear this in mind.

Are the opportunities for other areas to share in this work? I am sure that my children would like to play a part.

Since, in answer to a supplementary question, the Minister has stated that there was no real consultation with the Ministry of Labour, how can he tell the House that the Post Office had to satisfy itself that there was no suitable labour before it went to the schools and asked for young people to deliver the mail? Surely, those two statements are completely contradictory. If the family of the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane) wish to take part in this work, I am sure that nobody would stop them, but is the Minister aware that whether it is potatoes or the Post Office, we very often find that it is the children from the junior secondary schools who do these jobs?

Let me make this quite clear. I said in answer to the hon. Gentleman's Question that we are in consultation with the Ministry of Labour, and this will normally happen at the level required. Then he pressed me on the point, and I did say that, so far as I knew, we did not consult the Minister at his level on this particular matter at this particular point in time. That does not mean to say that we do not satisfy ourselves through the local employment authorities that in fact labour is not available.

asked the Postmaster-General on how many occasions since September thefts have taken place of moneys in transit by mail.

In the period 1st October to 16th December, 33 mail bags containing registered letters were reported missing. Only one of these bags, that despatched on 9th October, contained bankers' packets. The value of these bankers' packets was £15,250.

What is the right hon. Gentleman's normal procedure for making public such thefts, because it raises a great question of confidence in the Post Office security services?

I think that that probably arises more appropriately on the next two Questions.

asked the Postmaster-General why he requested the Pembroke shire Constabulary not to take action in the case of the theft of £15,000 from the regular Haverford west to London mail train.

asked the Postmaster-General why no public statement was made concerning the £15,000 mail robbery which took place in South Wales during October last; whether the serial numbers of the missing notes are known; and whether police assistance has been sought to solve the case.

The case referred to concerns the loss of one mail bag despatched from Haverford west Post Office to the Carmarthen to Bristol Travelling Post Office on 9th October. The contents of the bag included four bankers packets containing £15,250. The enquiries that have been made, in full collaboration with the Police, including the Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and British Transport Police, have so far failed to establish where the theft occurred. It was not considered in the public interest to issue a statement and accordingly the Pembrokeshire Police were asked not to give publicity to the loss. The numbers of some of the missing bank notes were known and these were given to the Police for circulation.

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that my information is that the Pembrokeshire Constabulary were not informed of this theft until two days had elapsed since the money was missing? Is he further aware that my information is that the Pembrokeshire Police were asked to take no action on this matter and to keep the matter secret? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that on top of this, despite the statement to the contrary of his Department reported in the Press in the last day, one of the local newspapers did telephone the local head postmaster shortly after hearing the rumour and was given a categorical denial that the theft had ever taken place?

If I may answer the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question first, notably, is it not true that the Pembrokeshire Police were asked to do nothing about it, I want to say absolutely flatly that this is wholly without foundation. It is perfectly true that the Pembrokeshire Constabulary were not told for a matter of 48 hours, because it had not been established, within an earlier period than that, whether the mail bags had simply gone astray or whether they had been stolen, but any suggestion that we have not collaborated with the police authorities is entirely false.

On the question of security, is it not a fact that there were absolutely no security steps taken when this money was in transit from Haverford west to Carmarthen, and that since the robbery steps are being taken? Is it not also a fact that an official of the right hon. Gentleman's Department has said that the reason why this robbery was not made public was because nobody asked them? Does the Minister wish to confirm that we have to inquire every day whether there has been a robbery? Is: he not aware that if it were not for the B.B.C. in Wales this story would never have come to light? Have we to depend on journalists—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] This is a very important issue. Have we to depend on journalists to reveal to us that robberies have taken place today?

I want to repudiate quite flatly, in dealing with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, that no security precautions were taken on this particular train. As regards publicity, I think the whole House will agree that when a robbery occurs the main thing is to detect the criminals and to recover the money, and the Post Office has to decide, case by case, according to circumstances, whether the issue of a public statement would either promote that end or tend to defeat it. Here, my investigation branch took the view, I believe rightly, that publicity would have hindered the detective operations at work.

Is not all this rather deplorable? Do I understand from the Postmaster-General that his Department was specifically responsible for stifling public release of the news of this robbery? Secondly, how general is this policy? The right hon. Gentleman says he does it case by case. Would he indicate how many cases have happened without our knowledge? Thirdly, is it not a fact that the police depend a great deal upon the assistance of the public? So if there had been a public release of the news there would have been a far better chance, probably—a quicker chance—to catch the criminals in this case.

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by "stifling" publicity, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that if the Post Office were to give publicity to every one of these cases which occur the newspapers would probably be taking far too much material from the Post Office—

Oh.

Not every day.

—but I do say with respect to the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends that the investigation branch of the Post Office, who are experts in these matters, are probably better judges of the value of publicity than they are.

Could I ask the right hon. Gentleman, have the criminals in this case been caught? If this complacent attitude of the Postmaster-General continues, is he not aware that soon the public will lose all faith in the Post Office services?

Nonsense.

So far the criminals have not been apprehended, but I am hopeful that they will be, and I am hopeful, too, that their apprehension will be promoted and not hindered by the action which the Post Office has taken.

Apart from the publicity issue, is my right hon. Friend satisfied about the security side, remembering that about £250,000 was lost in the centre of London about a year ago and that no one has been apprehended for that? What with that theft and now this, and the August mail train robbery, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the security precautions are as good as they ought to be in his Department?

I have no exact figure, but I should say that during the four years I have been the Post Office Minister the expenditure on precautions both in Crown post offices and in respect of money in transit has been roughly trebled.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding his claim that there was a security guard on this train, nobody travelled in this mail van with this money, and that this particular money was marked specially as a parcel of high value? Is he aware that there were keys to the mail van all the way up the line and that post offices were entitled to put mailbags in that van? How can he say with confidence that Post Office security services are proficient in conditions of that nature?

I am certainly not going to comment on detailed points given by the hon. Member. It would be inimical to the best interests of the Post Office if I divulged what our precautions are.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say a little more about the time it took to establish that the theft had taken place? Did it really take 48 hours for the Post Office to be sure they had not got the bags in their possession?

I have said quite freely to the House that the Pembrokeshire Police were not informed for 48 hours—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] That was so because these mail bags so often are misdirected. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I would ask the House to keep some sense of proportion about this. When one considers the millions and millions of mailbags that are in transit throughout the country it is inevitable that now and again the odd mailbag will be misdirected, and it is important that we should check on that before we start bringing the police on to the scene.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose to raise the matter—

They are very honest in Wales.

—the English probably took it—on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.