asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will make a statement regarding the progress of the working party which he set up to examine local authorities' refuse collection services under the chairmanship of Mr. H. H. Browne; and when the report from this working party will be published.

The working party has a big job to do in assembling the facts on which its conclusions will be based. It is still engaged on this and it will be some time before it is in a position to report.

:Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a growing practice of people taking their motor cars to the countryside and dumping from them junk of all descriptions in ditches and gateways? Will he bring that matter to the working party's attention?

I agree with my hon. Friend that this dumping is becoming a major problem. However, it is only one aspect of the subject with which the working party is dealing. I have no doubt whatever that the working party will report as quickly as it can.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects to receive confirmation that the London County Council wishes to purchase the 500 acres of Woolwich Arsenal land released by the War Office.

I understand that the Council has already indicated its interest in the purchase of this land and that it is negotiating with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind in any large-scale development of these 500 acres or additional land in the near future the necessity of providing houses for all sections of the community, not only in the London County Council but in the Woolwich Borough Council, and for housing associations and private enterprise?

Yes, Sir, but I must state that the prime need in London at the moment is for land to enable the public enterprise programme, which includes, to some extent, the housing societies, to make headway.

Would the Minister accept that there is also a need to provide somewhere for people to work when they go to the area and that it is not possible to increase the population by 85,000 without providing some way for people to go backwards and forwards to work? Many local people are becoming extremely worried by the complacent comments on this matter of members of the Minister's own party, including the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath).

:I do not understand the hon. Member's reference to my right hon. Friend, but clearly the need for work as well as homes will be borne in mind by all the authorities which are interested in this, particularly the London County Council.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will introduce legislation to enable members of local authorities to vote upon issues relating to the terms of tenancies of council houses when they are tenants of such houses.

No, Sir. The existing law enables my right hon. Friend to give such members a dispensation to vote in appropriate circumstances. But I think it is generally accepted that a member should not, if it can be avoided, vote on matters which manifestly affect his own pocket.

Has the hon. Gentleman conferred with the Prime Minister on this issue? Is he aware that the Prime Minister has repeatedly justified to this House Ministers, including himself, initiating and voting on policy from which they have themselves received vast sums of money in the form of subsidies? Why should there be a higher standard of public conduct for councillors than for the Prime Minister and other Ministers?

I think that the operative words in my Answer were "if it can be avoided". The hon. Gentleman will realise that most of us here hope one day to retire and to get an old-age pension, but we would be very pushed to do so if we could not vote on it.

Will the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that he will discuss this matter with the Prime Minister and let us have the Prime Minister's views on it?

May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that these rules sometimes create very real difficulties, and would not it be simpler to enact that any councillor may vote on any issue, provided that if he has a personal interest he declares it so that his fellow councillors and the whole electorate know?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the broad principles both of Section 76 and the policy of granting dispensations are accepted by the local authority associations, and dispensation is readily granted to speak, though not to vote, on matters of specific individual interest.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many local authorities organise training schemes involving clay release for their industrial employees under 18.

No figures are available. I understand that apprenticeship schemes are widely supported in local government and that the nationally agreed conditions of service for industrial employees provide for a full range of training facilities, including financial assistance and day release.

May I ask the Minister whether he recollects that last week he said that he was working on the survey of 1960 in relation to clerical workers? Does not the Minister think that he ought to get the figures up to date so that his Department knows what is going on, and so that he can encourage and develop schemes with the laggard authorities? I agree that they are not in the majority, but those that are bad ought to be pulled up to the standard of the best.

The hon. Gentleman should not assume that any figures given are based on the same report of the same date.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will list the local authorities which have officers engaged full time in organising training for their council's employees.

This information is not available. Local authorities organise staff training in the way that best meets their own needs and those of their employees.

May I ask the Minister whether it is possible for a big county council, or a big county borough, to organise training properly unless it has a training officer? Will the Minister consider extending the functions of his own training officers in his Department by adding staff to stimulate this sort of development?

I shall certainly consider any suggestions made, but I think that the hon. Gentleman really takes the wrong examples. The big authorities are in a better position to organise training. It is in the smaller authorities that difficulties are likely to arise

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what advice he has given to local authorities about the extension of smoke control areas, in view of the possible shortage of smokeless fuel.

I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a circular issued to local authorities on this matter last month.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) whether, when a consumer has installed a water meter, he will take steps to ensure that, if the cost of the water consumed is less than the standard minimum charge, the consumer will not be penalised by having to pay the difference between the cost of the amount of water he has consumed and the standard minimum charge;

Both matters are dealt with in the report on water charges prepared by a sub-committee of the Central Advisory Water Committee. My right hon. Friend is at present considering the report and I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement on it which he hopes to make soon.

Does my hon. Friend realise that the first question is a matter of "Heads I win, tails you lose"? Does the method referred to in the second Question lead to the conservation of water supplies, which we all realise should be pursued?

Certainly the first Question was very much one to be considered by the sub-committee, and I think the second was also, although I am a little less certain about that. But they are matters which will be very much in my right hon. Friend's mind in considering his statement.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what was the amount of interest rate paid by local authorities for 1950–51. 1961–62 and 1962–63.

The average rate of interest paid by local authorities in England and Wales on their outstanding debt in 1950–51 was 3·4 per cent., and in 1961–62 4·9 per cent. Final figures are not yet available for 1962–63, but I estimate that the rate will be about 5 per cent.

Can the right hon. Gentleman follow that up and tell me what will be the difference to local authorities, in terms of millions of pounds? In view of the Answer he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), in reply to a previous Question, does not he think that he ought to have another think about the effect that these interest rates are having on local authorities who are particularly concerned with his own Department?

The answers to those two supplementary questions are. "Not without notice", and, "No".

Cannot he confirm that the difference in the amounts is the difference between about £17 million in 1950–51 and £200 million at present? If that is true, does it not show at least what the period in office of this Government has done to local authority spending?

Yes, but during that same period the subsidy from the taxpayer has trebled.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what steps he proposes to take to finance the increased expenditure falling on local authorities in regional development schemes.

Substantial grants of varying proportions are of course already available to local authorities for much road work, all housing, and much land reclamation. This is in addition to general grant and, when payable, rate deficiency grant. I have no reason to think that authorities are inhibited by financial difficulties from taking their full part in the plans for regional development from which they stand to gain so much.

Is the Minister aware that in schemes like that contained in the Report on the North-East, when the Government propose massive road development schemes, new bridges and the rest, without any suggestion of how these projects should be financed, or what the total cost will be, it is a little imprudent, if not downright nonsensical? Is he aware that it is thought locally that the Government are merely window-dressing for the General Election, and have not the least intention of carrying out this programme in the foreseeable future?

On the lowest ground of political self-interest, it would be a very wrong policy to ascribe to my party. We have put forward realistic proposals, and I have no evidence that the financial resources are not available. But the grants in some of these fields are being re-examined, and the financial implication of the Buchanan proposals in particular is being studied.

Will the Minister help local authorities such as that of Blackburn to prepare the way for new industries and to develop their areas properly by paying them the 85 per cent. grant for the clearance of derelict industrial sites which at present only a few development districts enjoy?

I think that the hon. Lady will agree that in all spending of public money priorities must be taken into account, and the Government are giving priority above all to the areas needing employment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why he gave a decision on the Lavender Hill allotments, Enfield, against the advice of his own inspector, the Middlesex County Council, and the Enfield Borough Council.

I had to decide the basis of compensation for land to be compulsory acquired by the local authority; my reasons were given in the decision letter of 4th July 1963, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has also ignored the advice of the Minister of Agriculture, in the answer that he gave to the Council and the other bodies concerned, of which I have a copy? If the other areas were built up it would be more reasonable to leave this urea as an open space. Is not he ashamed to have legislation put on the Statute Book by his party which allows him, by one stroke of the pen, to put £250,000 from the public purse into private pockets, for doing nothing?

It is my responsibility to administer the Act, and that required me to decide in this case whether the land—which is being retained in allotment use—should be given a housing or an open space designation for compensation purposes. I explained in the letter to which I have referred that after considering all the evidence I decided in the way that the hon. Member knows.

Does the Minister realise that, as a result of all this, if the public authority is to get this land it must pay £150,000 or £200,000 when, two years ago, it changed hands for £7,500? If, as the Minister maintains, that is the result of the law as it now stands, does it not underline the case for an alteration in the law?

That is a far broader subject, but it does not make sense to require that any subsidies needed to provide open space should fall on the backs of certain landowners.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what has been the fall in the Government-paid proportion of local authority housing costs since 1951.

The proportion of local authority housing expenditure on revenue account met by Exchequer contributions was 25 per cent. in 1950–51 and 21 per cent. in 1961–62.

I thank the Minister for that information, but may I ask whether he is aware that, thanks to the Government's interest policies since they came to power, the raising of the interest rate from 2¾ per cent. to 5¾ per cent, on house loans has added £3,804 to the interest repayment on a £2,500 council house? In the light of that, can the Government really claim that they are doing all they can to help councils to meet the tremendous demand for new houses?

The hon. Gentleman is tireless in pursuing the wrong problem. Subsidies have trebled in the last 10 years, earnings have risen, and subsidies are now being reviewed. More and more authorities, including Socialist ones, are adopting rent rebate schemes. The general result is that I have no evidence that any citizen is being precluded from occupying, with great pleasure, a local authority dwelling.

Can the Minister claim that the subsidies can in any way meet this tremendous increase in interest?

The hon. Gentleman was disappointed with the Answer I originally gave, which showed that there was a fall of less than one-fifth in the contribution made by the present subsidy, and we are reviewing it despite all the other factors that I mentioned.

Is it not the case that, whatever rent schemes local authorities have, they are always worried about the steady increase in the total amount of money they have to raise in rates? It is not much good having a tiny little interim relief Bill if the Government pursue policies which continually increase the total volume of money which councils have to raise, which is what happens if the proportion of Government help is reduced.

The hon. Gentleman is widening the question. General grant and rate deficiency grant have soared, and, as I say, we are now reviewing the subsidy on housing.

May I ask the Minister whether he seriously stands by his statement that any person who wants a council house can apply for one? Is not the Minister aware that although council houses are fully occupied, nevertheless there are many families who dare not apply for a council house at present because they cannot afford to pay the rental?

That shows the extreme cruelty of the local authorities concerned if they do not adopt rent rebate schemes.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, in view of the housing shortage, he will introduce legislation permitting local authorities to levy rates on houses vacant for more than three months or alternatively to acquire and let them.

The rating of empty properties will be considered as part of the general review of the rating system, though I do not believe that it would have any significant effect on the period for which houses remain vacant and there are considerable practical difficulties. Local authorities already have power to acquire and let houses.

I am grateful for that reply, which does not fully close the door on the subject. May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that tens of thousands of houses have been vacant for more than three months, mainly because the owners are holding out for higher rents or higher selling prices? If this proposal were introduced, would not it provide an incentive to these owners to sell or to let at more reasonable rents? May I ask the Minister whether he is aware—I must admit that this is a very strange business—that some of these houses are going to rack and ruin despite the fact that the owner is suffering as a result?

I think that we want to distinguish between houses left empty in towns where there is not overpopulation, compared with dwellings and houses in the crowded areas. I do not want to prejudge this issue. There are relatively few houses where the owners are waiting for a better market, and I do not believe that those owners would be deterred by higher rates. In most cases the houses are empty awaiting a change of occupation or while alterations and improvements are being carried out.

While it does not follow that this situation arises in areas with low populations, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that in Paddington, the most densely populated borough in London, the number of empty properties is one of the highest? Does not this show that something must be wrong?

I have no evidence that the number of empty properties in Paddington is one of the highest in the country, but it could happen to be an area also where a great deal of improvement, alteration, and conversion is going on.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will take steps to set up a national exchange service for local authority housing in order to facilitate multilateral exchanges by council tenants in the interests of increased labour mobility.

No, Sir. I am not satisfied that the results from such a service would justify the expenditure of money and effort involved.

May I ask the Minister whether the agrees that there is some evidence that there are a large number of people in local authority houses who would like to change their employment—and it would be in the national interest if they did—but who are prevented from so doing wholly and solely because they are unable to take their council house accommodation with them? Would it be such an expensive organisation, in view of the possible benefits to the national economy, to have a central exchange service which would enable two, three, or even four-way transfers of council houses?

I accept that it is desirable, but I believe that it is best organised on a bilateral basis. The Central Housing Advisory Committee reported that a central exchange would be unwieldy, and, more important, would be largely inaccessible to those who would need it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will send an observer to attend the proceedings on all county court cases in the London area involving claims for arrears of rent or possession which may assist the investigations of the Milner Holland Committee.

No, Sir.

:When will the Government show a little more vigour in rooting out some or these spiv, crooked, mystery landlords who are now operating without any restrictions whatsoever? Will he at least undertake to send someone to investigate a case the details of which I cannot no to give him, but which I have already send to him, in connection with which one of these mushroom landlords, operating in the Brady-Waters slum empire, is suing one of my constituents for six years' arrears of rent? Will he go along himself and see what is happening?

The Question concerns the provision of assistance in the investigations of the Milner Holland Committee. This is a Committee which I take extremely seriously, and which I shall do all I can to help, if that Committee asks for any assistance. But I must leave it to make its own inquiries.

Is that Committee taking steps to observe some of the county court cases of this nature? One would think that this was an obvious source of information to it.

When housing Questions were last asked the fact came out that the Milner Holland Committee had asked the clerks of county courts to send it the answers to a certain number of questions.

Then why not say so?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what are the conditions with reference to time in the making of an application for the standard grant.

An application for grant must be submitted to the local authority and approved by it before the improvement works begin. This is the only statutory requirement in regard to the timing of an application.

I obviously worded my Question badly. What expectation of life must there be for a house before it obtains a standard grant? Is my hon. Friend aware that a constituent of mine who wanted to sell a house was told, when a search was made, that the Ministry of Transport would want it one day because it was on the line of a road improvement? Is he aware that the prospective purchaser then disappeared, the county council then withdrew its proviso concerning this House, and my constituent then wished to live in the house himself and applied for a standard grant, whereupon he was told that although it was off the list he could not have a standard grant because at some stage the house would be knocked down? Is it not ridiculous to allow such a house to crumble away when it could have a reasonable expectation of life?

The answer to the real question asked by my hon. Friend is "Fifteen years". The answer to the question whether I was aware of all these things, is "No". It is a matter for the local authority to assess the probable life of a dwelling, in relation both to its physical condition and to what development plans there may be, either on the part of a highway authority or for slum clearance.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will set minimum standards for heat insulation in new houses.

Such standards are already set by building byelaws.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they are not high enough and that, for example, the cost of double glazing very much depends upon the volume of production? If manufacturers could be sure of a mass market the cost of this undoubtedly extremely useful provision would be reduced enormously.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Works and Buildings and I are awaiting the Report of the Building Regulations Advisory Committee on which we shall base the national building code which is to replace byelaws later this year.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will now make a detailed statement on future capital and recurrent grants to universities.

:I hope to be able to make a full statement shortly.

What has happened to the crash programme? Did not the right hon. and learned Gentleman, when he was in another place, hear Lord Robbins himself say that it was absolutely urgent for the Government to give an assurance to universities that they would get the finance if we were to have immediately, this next year, the increase in university places and the expansion which his Committee wanted? Is it not clear that the dilly-dallying and failure of the Government to make the necessary decisions immediately means that there will probably not be the expansion in the number of places needed next year?

The assurance has been given. What the hon. Gentleman asked for in his Question was a detailed statement.

Does that mean that the Government have said to the universities that they can have a blank cheque for whatever expansion they require to increase the number of places as advised by the Robbins Report and that the Government assure them that they will have the necessary finance for the purpose? Is that the position?

When one says that resources will be available for a given target, one does not sign a blank cheque.

Can the Lord President of the Council give us a little more information? He said that he would be able to tell us more at an early date. Does that mean a matter of days, of weeks or of months?

If I had been able to give more precise information in my original Answer, I should have done so.

Does that mean that, although the Government welcomed the Robbins Report and the crash programme, after more than three months, owing to a bicker between two Ministers, no statement of Government policy can be made?

It means nothing of the kind. The universities were asked to put in their preliminary proposals, in the light of the Government's acceptance of the Robbins Report, by the end of November last. These were prepared by each university individually, and co ordination between individual statements is necessary. This work is pro- ceeding urgently. I do not think that the time taken is excessive.

In view of the answers given, I beg to give notice that I shall urgently seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science what plans he has to increase the number of Department of Scientific and Industrial Research post-graduate studentships in electrical engineering.

Special consideration will be given to engineering and applied sciences, including electrical engineering, in the allocation of the substantially increased number of post-graduate studentships planned for the next academic year.

Is it considered satisfactory that the proportion of electrical engineers should be only 197 out of 4,036?

No; and I have repeatedly said so. But, of course, the number of studentships awarded must depend on the number of candidates with suitable qualifications coming forward.

Has the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research considered the forecasts made by the Committee on Scientific Manpower, and is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Committee forecast a very great shortage of electrical engineers in the next five years?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will give the number of post-graduates who obtained Department of Scientific and Industrial Research scholarships for the years 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, and 1963, respectively.

1,179, 1,293, 1,482, 1,610 and 1,932, respectively.

Has the Lord President of the Council taken into account that the numbers are insufficient, even though they are rising? Is this because the amount of scholarship grant is insufficient? Further, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that these students on research do not contribute to the National Insurance scheme, so that, if anything happens to them, the widows of those who are married are not allowed to claim benefits? Does not he agree that the total amount of the scholarship awards should be increased so that students could pay towards National Insurance benefits?

The number of scholarships depends upon the number of students with the right qualifications coming forward. The terms are constantly under review; but, of course, they must bear a relationship to scholarships and awards granted by other Departments. I shall look into any particular aspects of the terms of the awards which the hon. Gentleman brings to my attention.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that students employed on research by the National Coal Board have a sufficient scholarship to ensure that their National Insurance contributions are paid? Does he not think that he ought to bring these students into line with those employed by the National Coal Board?

The amount of these awards bears a relationship to postgraduate studentships of all kinds and they are a particular type of award. I am not sure that, without notice, I can discuss their relationship to the National Coal Board studentships. But they certainly bear a relationship to those given by the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Education.

Would the Minister draw attention to the awards available to mature students who have been in industry for some years to enable them to return to university to do research? In view of the great need for a large increase in the number of university teachers, will the Minister review the scale of awards to mature students to encourage more to return to university for a period of research to equip them for university teaching?

I will bear the suggestion in mind. I cannot answer the question on it without notice.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will initiate research into the compulsive urges to smoke, to find out what people get out of smoking, and to examine ways whereby any real needs which may emerge can be satisfied in a less harmful way; and if he will authorise a generous allocation of funds for these purposes.

No, Sir. I am satisfied the Medical Research Council is fully aware of the social relevance of this matter and is not prevented by lack of funds from entertaining any scientifically promising project of research in this field.

Is not that an appallingly complacent Answer, in the light of the 72 deaths a day now from lung cancer as compared with only five deaths a day 20 years ago? In preparing his complacent Answer, has the Lord President of the Council taken into consideration the fact that the American evidence shows that the death rate for the smoker is 70 per cent. above the average for the non-smoker, and that for people smoking 40 cigarettes a day it is 120 per cent. above the average? Is not this an indication of the importance of the subject, calling for immediate study by the Medical Research Council? Should not the right hon. and learned Gentleman seize this matter with the urgency with which the Minister of Transport has seized the problem of road accidents, fatalities from which are less than one-third of those from lung cancer?

I do not think that anyone is more closely aware of the danger of cigarette smoking than I am or has done more to make his awareness apparent to the public. But the hon. Gentleman has put forward a particular project for research which I do not think would commend itself to the scientists.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman saying that the motivation of smoking as distinct from the medical aspects of the subject is something not worthy of study? Is that really his considered judgment?

No, Sir; but, in order to justify a particular project for scientific research, one must put forward one in which the leads are promising and in which satisfactory experiments can be devised. Naturally, I inquired of the Medical Research Council what it thought of the hon. Gentleman's proposal, as I always do when these individual projects are put forward, and I am bound to say that I concur in its scientific judgment that this is not a correct approach.

Is it not possible that, because of the rather narrower view of the Medical Research Council, a wrong decision can be reached? Is not a study of the psychological causes of smoking precisely what doctors are not interested in, but may it not be of very great interest and importance to non-doctors and people concerned with psychological factors rather than the purely medical aspects?

If the hon. Gentleman has followed both the Report of the Royal College of Physicians and the recent American report, which I expect is over here by now—I have a copy—he will have found that a certain amount of work has been done in this field. It is not want of interest but the inherent difficulties of ascertaining the truth about the matter which makes it so difficult to devise experiments.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there are many hon. Members on both sides of the House who would like him to look at his answer again? Is he completely convinced that there is adequate impartial research into the motivation of smoking?

I am quite satisfied that there is adequate research. What I am not sure about is that there are adequate answers.

Will the Lord President of the Council have a word with the Minister of Health about it? Having said that he is anxious to make the public aware of the dangers of cigarette smoking, will he consider, with the Minister of Health, the very inadequate resources devoted by the Government to advertising the dangers of lung cancer as compared with the millions of £s spent by the cigarette companies on their advertising? That is, at least, a concrete proposition which he could very usefully consider.

The Question related to the psychological motivation of smoking.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science whether new grant terms have now been agreed between the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the British Ship Research Association; and whether he will make a statement.

New and improved grant terms for the five years beginning 1st April, 1963, have been offered. Provided industry raises a minimum grant-earning income of £600,000 a year, the new terms provide grant aid of 50 per cent. of industrial income up to £1,000,000; that is, a maximum of £500,000 a year. In addition, there will be a grant of £1 for every £1 contributed by the shipowners and ship managers, subject to a maximum of £200,000 a year.

How do these new terms compare with the old ones?

As compared with £200,000 a year under the old terms, the new terms permit a maximum total grant of £700,000 a year.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will authorise an increase in the salaries of the senior staff of the Public Trustee Office.

No, Sir. As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, the salaries of the Public Trustee and his most senior staff were increased substantially as from 1st August, 1963.

I do not wish to enter into the discussions between the Lord Chancellor and my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Sir M. Lindsay); but may I ask whether my right hon. and learned Friend would agree that to get the best results we must pay salaries which are more than a little over half of those paid by large private institutions?

As my hon. Friend says, one does not wish to get involved in a matter which is the responsibility of the Lord Chancellor. But the salaries of the senior members of the Public Trustee Office were very substantially increased only a few months ago and I do not think that any further increase is appropriate at present.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman inform the House of the percentage of the increase given?

It varies, but it followed the recommendation of the Franks Committee on the Higher Civil Service. Over a period of between four and four-and-a-half years it averaged about 4 per cent. per annum.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why some valuation officers make an addition of 10 per cent. when valuing bungalows, compared with houses with similar accommodation and to what extent this is done.

The rating assessment of any property is statutorily based on the rent at which it might be expected to let. Generally speaking, the rating assessments on bungalows are higher than those on houses with similiar accommodation because bungalows fetch higher rents. The relation between the rents of houses and bungalows varies from place to place, and the relation between the rating assessments varies accordingly.

Would the Minister consider the desirability of altering this practice, or amending the law on this subject if necessary? Is he aware that this would seem particularly unfair on a person who, for health reasons, is advised to live in a bungalow and then finds that if, instead, he had taken a house his property would have been rated lower? Is it desirable that such people, advised for medical reasons to live in bungalows, should find themselves hardly treated with regard to rate assessment?

No, Sir; the basis of the rate assessments, as I said, is the rent—subject to certain conditions—which is obtainable for the property. If it is a matter of fact, as in general it is, that bungalows attract a higher level of rent, it is right that the assessment should follow.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the factor of 10 per cent. mentioned in the Question is far outside any comparison between houses and flats of the same accommodation, and that the discrepancy would appear to be more like 100 per cent.? Will he look into the matter particularly in respect of this comparison?

I think that my hon. Friend is right and that flats attract a proportionately higher rent than houses with the same accommodation. But the principle is the same and I think it is a sound one.