asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will now announce the additional recurrent grants he is making to the University Grants Committee to enable the universities to carry out those recommendations of the Robbins Report which Her Majesty's Government have accepted.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 21st January.

What is causing the delay? Has the University Grants Committee asked for a global sum yet? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman now pruning it, or is it merely the case that there are not enough clerks and adding machines in either the U.G.C. or the right hon. and learned Gentleman's office?

Settlement of these matters must take into account the needs of thirty-seven separate universities and university institutions, which have to be consulted.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if, in implementing plans to expand higher education, Her Majesty's Government will take steps to encourage those universities and university promotion committees which are prepared to raise funds by their own efforts, so that the full cost does not fall on the taxpayer.

The Robbins Report has stressed the continued desirability of benefactions to universities. I am sure this is right.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply, but does he agree that any university would be ill-advised to interpret the Robbins Report as a reason for abandoning any projects it might have for raising public funds?

The Robbins Report expressly stressed the desirability of the flexibility and independence which private funds give universities.

Is the Minister aware that I do not necessarily accept the sentiment expressed in the last words of the Question? Will he bear in mind, however, that the seven new universities in England and Wales have gone precisely to those places where the local authorities or promotion committees have been making such efforts? In this respect, will he bear in mind the efforts being made in East Stirlingshire for the provision of a new university in Scotland?

I am sure that I shall bear in mind all relevant considerations.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science, in view of the need for the rapid expansion of many universities, what steps he is taking to allow them to acquire land more speedily.

Local authority powers of compulsory purchase may be used to acquire land for university purposes.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this answer is not good enough? Has he any objection in principle to the universities themselves being given the power to acquire land?

There are arguments on both sides which I can hardly deploy at Question Time. Obviously, compulsory powers normally need to be used either by a Minister responsible to Parliament or by a democratically elected local authority.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider the possibility of the reconstituted U.G.C. having one of its committees dealing with land purchase? Is not one of the essential factors having funds centrally available so that such purchases can be made in due course?

I do not want to exclude any possibilities of this kind, and I will certainly consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. But, as I have said, there are arguments on both sides, and the whole question of planning must be considered in the selection of sites.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will institute independent inquiries into the collegiate structure in the universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science what action he is taking on recommendation 146 of the Robbins Report which proposes independent inquiries into the anomalies at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge under certain circumstances; and what steps he will take to deal with the problem of higher emoluments for teaching staffs at Oxford and Cambridge, referred to in paragraph 542 of the Report.

As the Robbins Report recognised, problems of internal re-organisation are being considered, and solutions sought, within the universities of Oxford and Cambridge themselves, and the Report did not recommend, nor, in my view, would it be proper for me to initiate, independent inquiries at this stage. The whole question of academic salaries is at present before the National Incomes Commission, and I do not propose to comment until its report is available and I have had the opportunity to consider it.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind the fact that the Robbins Committee commented in paragraph 687 that continuance of this practice would endanger the whole system of higher education in this country? If Oxford and Cambridge are not prepared to act quickly, what steps does he intend to take?

That is hypothetical.

What is not hypothetical is whether the Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Robbins Report said that Oxford and Cambridge should no longer have a privileged status amongst universities and, in particular, should no longer continue to cream off talent by offering higher emoluments to the staff? Does he agree with that judgment? If he does, can we expect him to take some action based on that agreement?

I do not think that that arises out of the Question on the Order Paper.

Mr. Swingler.

On a point of order—

Sit down.

Order. I thought I heard the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) addressing me in the midst of that noise.

I merely wish to point out—

Order.

Order. The hon. Member is perfectly in order. He is addressing me and not the Lord President.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I merely wish to point out that the Minister said that my supplementary question did not arise out of the Question on the Order Paper. That, perhaps, is because it was the Question on the Order Paper that the right hon. and learned Gentleman declined to answer. Would you permit me to repeat my supplementary question, which was whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman accepts the recommendation of the Robbins Committee?

The answer is, yes. I called the hon. Gentleman for a further supplementary question, which he has really already asked.

The Question on the Order Paper asked if I would institute an independent—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When the Robbins Report was published the Government said that they accepted it. That statement was given widespread publicity. Now, when they are asked to itemise it, they say that the question does not arise. Is it in order for Ministers to exercise this device in order to avoid legitimate criticism in the House?

What the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) says does not give rise to a point of order. The position is that the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme has not had an answer to his supplementary question.

The original Question was whether I would institute independent inquiries. I have answered it.

The question we should like the Minister to answer is this. We are all aware that the Robbins Committee has not demanded an immediate inquiry but has said that unless the universities speedily remove these anomalies it wants an inquiry. Does the Minister accept the Robbins Report in that form?

In that form, the question is hypothetical.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is nothing hypothetical about asking whether the Government accept a particular recommendation of the Robbins Report in the precise wording of the Report? That was what I asked as a supplementary question to these two Questions.

The Robbins Committee made a recommendation based on a certain hypothesis; that is what makes the hon. Gentleman's question hypothetical.

The question is a perfectly direct one. Does the Minister accept the recommendation of the Robbins Report in the form in which the Robbins Committee published it or not? That is not a hypothetical question but a direct question about a paragraph in the Report.

I will consider that situation if and when it arises.

No.

rose—

Order. I hope the House will help me. We shall not make any progress with so much noise.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the grossly unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment as soon as I can.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science whether Her Majesty's Government accept the recommendation of the Robbins Committee that six new universities should be established at once; and if he will state where they will be situated.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science, when he will state his decision regarding the siting of the six new universities.

The decision to establish a new university in Scotland has already been announced. The other recommendations of the Robbins Committee on this subject are, as stated in the White Paper (Cmnd. 2165), being considered by the University Grants Committee and the Government in the formulation of the 10-year programme of university expansion. The question of location for the Scottish university will now be considered by the University Grants Committee.

Is the Minister aware that the Robbins Committee recommended the establishment of these universities at once? If the right hon. and learned Gentleman can make a decision about Scotland, why cannot he make a decision about England and Wales? He must realise that any delay will mean that these projects will be put back for very many years. Can we not expect a decision from him—or is all this more Tory pie in the sky?

The Robbins Committee recognised, and recommended, that matters of this kind should be submitted, first, to the University Grants Committee. That is the situation. I think that the hon. Member is mistaken in his reading of the actual Report. I agree that the summary of recommendations gives the impression that the hon. Member indicates, but if he will turn up the relevant passage in the Report he will see that it is clear that the need could not be settled until inquiries to the existing universities about their potential have been made, and that

"… initiative is needed in the next few years."

The last phrase is a quotation from the Report.

Will the Minister consider siting one of the new universities in North-East Lancashire or the West Riding? Question No. 6 is about land for universities, and in that connection I would direct the Minister's attention to the areas to which I am referring, where there is land—and in very attractive surroundings.

I understand that there are at least 50 sites in respect of which there are applications pending in one form or another. They will all be considered, but in the first instance by the University Grants Committee.

Is the Minister aware that paragraph 476 of the Robbins Report reads:

"We therefore recommend the formation of six new universities in addition to those now in process of formation … The steps needed to establish these universities should be begun at once"—

Order. I appreciate the difficulty, but verbatim quotation is out of order in a supplementary question.

Does the Minister accept in detail the recommendations in paragraph 476, or is he continuing to be evasive about the matter?

I can tell the hon. Gentleman quite unevasively that the matter was referred to the University Grants Committee in accordance with the constitutional procedure.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science what plans he has for applying the Robbins proposals to Scotland.

As announced in the course of the debate yesterday, the Government have approved the establishment of a new university in Scotland in addition to the new University of Strathclyde. The University Grants Committee and the other organisations concerned are taking all the other recommendations affecting Scotland fully into consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Robbins Committee expressed grave disquiet about the number of awards for post-graduate research coming out of public funds and about the number of students coming forward for post-graduate work? Will he see that extra public funds are immediately available for post-graduate awards in Scotland so that we may remedy the position about which the Robbins Committee expressed disquiet?

If the hon. Member will study what I said last night, he will see that that has already been done.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will state the number of medical students whose application for university training was refused because of the shortage of places for the years 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, and 1963, respectively.

I regret that this information is not available.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman inform the House what the Government intend to do to increase the number of places in our medical training schools? Will he say how many women students there are at the moment and how many have been refused places in our universities?

The hon. Member will have seen the announcement of 19th December of a new medical school. The ultimate number of places depends upon the requirements, which are not primarily a question for me.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say why this information is not available? Is it not only of public interest but vitally important to the Government for planning the National Health Service? Could he not perfectly easily get the information if he wanted it?

No, I have tried to get the information and I have said that it is not available. One of the difficulties is the problem of multiple application.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will give the number of medical students registered at universities for the years 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, and 1963, respectively.

As the Answer contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what the Government intend to do to make certain that the numbers of general practitioners are increased? Is he satisfied that the present maximum figure of 3,500 patients per doctor is a correct one? Does he agree that it should be decreased to at least 2,500? Does he agree that the first Report, which the Government accepted with alacrity, was the Willink Report, which recommended a 10 per cent. reduction of places for medical students?

The hon. Member will be aware that questions relating to the number of medical students are matters for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science, in view of the facts that 10 out of 51 underground nuclear test explosions in the United States of America have led to radioactive clouds in the atmosphere and that a further 15 have led to limited leaks of radioactive elements, if he will make a statement on the dangers involved in underground tests.

As regards events in the United States, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given him by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday. The facts are not as stated by the hon. Member and there is no danger in the United Kingdom from underground tests.

But did not yesterday's statement admit that five explosions in the year ending August 1962 had released radioactivity which was detected outside the test area, and that in the last fifteen months two other events at Nevada were also detected off site? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore ask the Prime Minister to respond to the announcement this morning that the Soviet Government are willing to add nuclear underground tests to the existing Test Ban Treaty?

I am sure that the whole House will wish to add a fourth dimensional test ban if the question of verification were satisfactorily negotiated. But I must still tell the hon. Gentleman that he is basing his questions upon facts which are not accepted by the bulk of responsible opinion in America.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science how many British scientists, attending Canadian universities on fellowships, were persuaded to return to Britain after obtaining doctors' degrees by the selection board representing the British Civil Service, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and the Central Electricity Generating Board, in the years 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964.

The total number of British scientists and engineers who returned from Canada as a result of the Board's activities were 13, 23, and 12 in 1961, 1962 and 1963, respectively. Of these the numbers with doctors' degrees obtained at Canadian universities are 2, 3 and 2, respectively. Figures for 1964 are not yet available.

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply, but is he satisfied with the numbers who are returning? Secondly, are we to understand that the Selection Board only interviews students in Canada and not scientists already working there? Thirdly, does we have the full co-operation of the Canadian Government on this method of approach?

We want all suitable personnel we can get and we do not confine ourselves to the universities. Many of the people we interview are working in private firms. I should require notice of the hon. Member's final question.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister of Science which types of marine nuclear reactor are now being studied by the Atomic Energy Authority.

The authority is continuing its collaborative development work on the Vulcain reactor with the Belgian Group, Belgonucleaire. In addition, they are continuing their own research on integral pressurised water reactors.

Does this mean that confidence in these two types of reactor possibilities has not diminished and that we shall not have to look to a third new type to achieve what we want in marine propulsion?

It means that at the moment we are continuing with these and nothing else. I would not like to speculate about the future.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will state the scope and terms of reference of the British Ship Research Association; how its work is co-ordinated with the work of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research; and when a detailed report on the activities of these two bodies will be publicly available.

The Ship Research Association is an autonomous co-operative body, financially assisted by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, formed to promote research and scientific work relating to shipbuilding, marine engineering and the operation of ships. The work of the Association and related work in the Department is co-ordinated through advisory committees and joint projects. A report of the work of the Ship Division, National Physical Laboratory, is published annually in the Report of that Laboratory.

Some account of the work of the Association will appear in the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research publication Research for Industry, 1963. The Association itself contributes regularly to the technical press.

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that rather elaborate reply, but does he realise that the two bodies mentioned in my Question seem to be paying more attention to the southern seas—for instance, the Indian Ocean—rather than to the northern seas, where most British shipping Operates and most British fishing is done? Will he take steps to see that more attention is paid to the northern seas, particularly around Britain, with a view to helping our shipping and fishing?

I apologise for the length of my Answer, but it was occasioned by the length of the hon. and learned Gentleman's Question. As regards his supplementary question, I certainly am anxious that attention should be paid to the matters he mentions, but the Ship Research Association is, of course, concerned with ships rather than waters.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science how many development contracts and earmarked grants for research have now been placed by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.

Seven development contracts and one earmarked grant. I am informed that an eighth development contract is to be signed tomorrow.

Can the Minister say whether there has been any change in the establishment of the D.S.I.R.—which was rather recommended by the Trend Committee—for identifying projects and placing contracts?

I should like notice of that question.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science what recent research studies into the psychological or other motivation of smoking are available to him; and why he considers it inappropriate for the. Medical Research Council to initiate such a study.

Although it is a difficult field, much work has already been done. This is summarised in the recent reports on smoking and health published by the Royal College of Physicians of London and the United States Public Health Service. I will arrange for the hon. Member to receive copies of these reports. I have never suggested, nor do I consider, the subject inappropriate for the Medical Research Council or medical research.

Is it not clear from the signal failure of the Government's anti-smoking campaign that more work needs to be done? If the Medical Research Council is unenthusiastic—as it is apt to be about all projects in the psychological field—does not the Minister agree that there are other bodies whom he could approach to get this very valuable work done?

I do not agree with the criticism of the Medical Research Council. I only say that projects of scientific research must be judged on their scientific merit.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend ask the Medical Research Council to investigate this question: why is it that the doctors, who themselves know most about the relationship of smoking with lung cancer, are the heaviest smokers in the country?

I think that the facts shown by the Report of the Royal College of Physicians show somewhat the opposite to be the case. It shows that there was a significant dropping off in smoking by registered medical practitioners.

Would not the Minister agree that since vast sums of money are expended on studying the motivation of young people in order, by advertising, to induce them to smoke, it might be a good thing to spend some money similarly on a study of youth motivation in order to prevent them from smoking?

It is certainly true that the evidence shows that the earlier one starts smoking the more difficult it is to give it up, but, of course, that does not invalidate what I said, which is that while any project for medical or scientific research will be carefully considered, it must be judged on its scientific merits.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science to what extent the Medical Research Council limits its subjects for research to those for which he is certain that the questions investigated have adequate answers.

None, Sir. It is not my policy to interfere in the decisions taken by the Council in matters calling for scientific judgment.

Is the Minister aware of the distress his Answer of 21st January caused to many people who are keenly concerned about the growing problem of smoking and the motivation of young people? Does he recall that he then made a categorical statement that unless there was some possibility of adequate answers being found there was no point in pursuing this research? That is a wholly unscientific attitude for a Minister for Science to adopt. Is he influencing the Council on these lines? If so, should he not seek to change his position?

If the hon. Member will look again at what I said, he will see that I said nothing of the kind.

I have it here.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science how many research projects on bronchopulmonary diseases and lung cancer have been initiated by the Medical Research Council since 1957; how many have been completed; what is the total amount of funds allocated for these projects; and if he will make a statement.

The Council has for many years supported a wide programme of research on these conditions. For the most part, this work is a continuing process, and since it is closely integrated with the Council's general research programme it is not possible to give a reliable estimate of the expenditure involved.

Is the Minister aware that in the publication Medical Research in Britain, published by the Government in May 1963, two pages of projects are listed, but that this project does not appear there? If the Government are having a wide coverage, surely there should be some publicity put forward for this purpose. Is he further aware that bronchitis alone costs 31 million production days a year, as compared with only 5·7 million days lost in strikes? This is something about which we should have more than vague statements of general continuing responsibility, especially as in 1957 the Government announced as policy that they would try to prevent people from smoking.

The point is that this is one of the main lines of research by the Medical Research Council. Eight of the Council's research units and one of its research groups are engaged, wholly or partly, on this research. The Council also has a major financial responsibility for the Institute of Cancer Research, London, and the Cancer Research Department of the Royal Beatson Memorial Hospital, Glasgow. Work related to this subject is also undertaken by a number of the Council's external scientific staff, and numerous projects are supported by the Council's research branch.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will make a statement on the future of the National Research Development Corporation and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will make a statement on the future of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.

I would ask the hon. Members to await the outcome of the Government's consideration of the Trend Report.

In view of the splendid work done by the N.R.D.C. since its inception under the Labour Administration of 1945–51, will the right hon. Gentleman consider expanding its work so as to enable it to undertake, especially in Scotland, some of the developments, and the extension of some of the work, done within its own research institution?

Whatever may be thought of particular suggestions, the Trend Report favoured an extension of development work undertaken out of public funds.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is now over four months since the Trend Committee recommended the dissolution of D.S.I.R., and that this is causing a great deal of worry and anxiety among the employees there? This is a very important sector of Government research activity. If the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to make up his mind in four months, when is he likely to do so?

If there is disquiet, it is nothing to that which was caused by the Leader of the Opposition, on 19th November, when he recommended not merely the dissolution but the dispersal of D.S.I.R.

Is it possible to get a sensible answer from the right hon. Gentleman? We had more than half an hour's buffoonery last night. Can we have a sensible answer this afternoon?

Order. I have to repeat the words of my immediate predecessor. The hon. Member should not use the privilege of a supplementary question to make remarks of that kind.

On a point of order. I do not wish to involve the Chair in this. I asked a serious supplementary question, and I hope that you will agree, Mr. Speaker, that I did not receive a serious answer to it. If the Minister does not want to bother to answer a question he should have the courtesy to get up and say so. We should at least have an intelligent reply.

We cannot spend any more time in this fashion.

The House wants to know the answer to the question about the timing of the Government's decision on the Trend Report. Since the Minister agrees that there is deep dismay and alarm in D.S.I.R., can he give us some idea when the Government will make a statement on the Report?

I cannot give a date for that. I did not make the agreement that the hon. Member thought. There is no reason for dismay, because, on the assumption that the Trend Committee's recommendations were followed out to the full, the work of D.S.I.R., with its personnel, would be expanded by the very process of its being divided into two.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will instruct the Road Research Laboratory to publish the accident rates for different makes of car.

No, Sir.

Is the noble Lord aware—[Laughter.] Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that from such evidence as the Road Research Laboratory has published it appears that the accident rate in one ordinary car exceeds that of another of the same size—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—by 65 per cent., and that the probability of this being due to chance is over 1,000 to 1 against? Is he further aware that certain cars are unnecessarily dangerous, and that by suppressing evidence on this important matter he is risking life and compromising the integrity and independence of Government science?

The Report of the Road Research Laboratory says that

"there was little difference between the rates for different makes of car of the same size, except that some makes of sports car had particularly high rates".

In view of the correspondence which has passed between the hon. Member and me, I have asked the Laboratory to comment upon the point that he is now making. It tells me that, in the absence of particulars for vehicle mileage, age, particular models and other factors, including type and the use to which different vehicles are put, it is the opinion of the Laboratory that figures for makes would be misleading. And it observed that the difference in accident rates for cars other than sports cars would be accounted for by statistical variations resulting from the small size of some of the samples and by variations in other factors, such as types of car and vehicle mileage.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science whether he will now work out a national strategy of applied research to guide the allocation of public funds to research.

No, Sir. I would refer the hon. Member to Chapters III IV and V of the Report of the Zuckerman Committee on the Management and Control of Research and Development, and to paragraphs 103 to 107 of the Report of the Trend Committee, which suggest a somewhat different approach.

Is the Minister aware that the lack of sense of direction which he shows in his attitude to medical research is such as to cause dismay and confusion in the world of technology, and that the abject state of the country's aviation industry results directly from his lack of giving any sense of direction to industry as a whole on matters of technology?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his courteous supplementary question. It enables me to say that I thought his original Question was a particularly silly one.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science whether he has yet received proposals on design manuals and data sheets for the professional institutions, as a result of the Feilden Committee Report on Engineering Design of July, 1963; and what action he is taking.

The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is now studying a proposal from the Institution of Mechanical Engineers for a pilot scheme for producing design data sheets.

Referring to the Chief Secretary's Answer of 19th November last year, why so slow?

I do not think that it has been.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science whether he will take steps to keep members of scientific committees reporting to him informed as to what action has resulted from their reports until two years after such committees have signed their reports.

The decisions taken on the recommendations of such scientific committees are normally made public.

Should not the busy men who serve on these committees be treated with elementary good manners, if possible?

I have never known any member of a committee appointed by me to complain, and I do not believe that there is the smallest basis for the hon. Member's suggestion to the contrary.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will consider the establishment of a central London scientific centre for visiting academics from overseas and from other parts of the United Kingdom.

I have, on more than one occasion, considered proposals of this kind. It is difficult to justify any large expenditure on the provision of special treatment for academic visitors as distinct from other visitors to London.

Would the Minister not agree that, with the increasing dependence we have on technology and science and the increasing transport backwards and forwards between other parts of the world and London and other parts of Britain and London, such a centre would be of tremendous value to academics, particularly in the scientific field, so that they could meet their colleagues from other places in London? Is he not aware that there is a tendency nowadays for people with much lower incomes to be in the scientific group and they do not have well-established clubs in which to meet their colleagues from abroad?

I naturally appreciate the value of visiting scientists, but I think the House would also appreciate the value of visitors with other distinctions and qualifications.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that in many other capitals academics have their academies or buildings in which they can meet? It is difficult when they come here, because when our scientists go abroad they get hospitality in almost every capital of the world where such buildings exist.

If the hon. Member is referring to accommodation at the Royal Society. I think that problem is on the way to being solved.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he will make a statement about the progress of the research programme under the Director of the Meat Research Institute.

Research on meat is proceeding, satisfactorily at the Low Temperature Research Station of the Agricultural Research Council. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the latest available Report.

While thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply, may I ask if he is aware that the quality of meat and improvement of its production is of the greatest importance to our farming industry, particularly in Aberdeenshire? What are the practical ways in which this Institute relates its scientific knowledge to areas of high quality beef production?

I think the answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is, yes. I would require notice of any question relating to this particular research programme.

asked the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science if he is aware of the need to strengthen the field of marine research by the formation of a marine sciences research council or a marine and freshwater sciences research council in order to give authority and encouragement at the organisational level to the unity which scientists are striving to achieve at the working level; and if he will take steps in the public interest to form such a council and give it the requisite powers.

This proposal, which has only recently been put forward, will be considered in relation to the recommendations of the Slater and Trend Committees in the field of natural resources.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that the proposal involves a very urgent question of principle for representatives of the fishing industry? Will he hurry up and see that, in the interests of British fisheries, the council asked for in my Question is constituted and put to work?

Since the question of the constitution of a new research council is a matter of major significance in scientific policy, it cannot be regarded out of relation to the structure of other research councils.