asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many applicants there were to the Careers Office, Royal Navy, at West Hartlepool, in 1963; and how many of these finally entered the Royal Navy or Royal Marines.

Five hundred and thirty-seven and 210 respectively.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving those figures. Can he increase the advertising in the north-east area? This careers office serves a very wide area in the North and very few people know that it exists in West Hartlepool. Will he do all he can to advertise its existence in the area?

Yes. Any advertising for recruiting purposes is directed to local areas through the media of local newspapers. I do not know about the careers office in West Hartlepool, but I will certainly see if anything can be done to improve the situation there.

Is there still a plentiful supply of men offering themselves for the Royal Marines?

Yes.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty which of Her Majesty's ships, by class, were disposed of by sale commercially in 1963–64.

Twenty-nine to date. This number is made up of one destroyer, four frigates four ocean minesweepers, five fast patrol boats, four submarines, six boom defence vessels, two trawlers, one ocean tug and two mooring vessels.

With permission I will publish the list of these ships in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Before authorising further sales, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of maintaining the size of the conventional fleet, particularly in view of the fact that it is now Opposition policy to offer it unsolicited and place it at the disposal of the United Nations?

As I said during the debate on the Navy Estimates, it is our intention to see that the size of the conventional fleet is commensurate with our responsibilities. Of course, I cannot guarantee what the position would be in future, but I do not regard the suggestion try hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) mentioned with any more favour than, I should think, the Navy does.

Does not the Civil Lord understand that nobody has made any such suggestion that we should hand over the Navy either to the United Nations or to any other Government? Will he bear in mind that the Government have assigned or intend to assign the V-bombers to N.A.T.O. and that there are 55,000 British troops in Europe under the command of a German general? A Labour Government—as indeed, would any other Government—would retain absolute control over the Navy.

I certainly take note of what the right hon. Gentleman says and I am sure that we will all welcome the return of the Leader of the Opposition so that we can put a few pertinent questions to him.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty which Admirals of the Fleet are on active duty; and what emoluments and services are provided for those who are non-active.

Admiral of the Fleet the Earl Mountbatten of Burma, Chief of the Defence Staff, is the only officer of his rank on active duty. For other Admirals of the Fleet, half pay is provided. When they perform specific duties, services are given appropriate to their rank.

How many non-active Admirals of the Fleet are there, and are they really necessary?

There are nine Admirals of the Fleet, who are retired and on half pay. Whether they are really necessary is a difficult question to answer. They are individuals who have rendered distinguished service and therefore have the right to go on being called Admiral of the Fleet and to receive half pay.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty why no mention of naval reserve and cadet organisations appears in the naval section of the Statement on Defence, 1964.

Practice varies from year to year according to the space available. The fact that no mention of naval reserves and cadets was made in the Statement on Defence is of course no reflection on the importance we attach to them.

A comprehensive statement on Royal Naval Reserves and Cadet Forces is given in Appendix III of the Defence (Navy) Estimates, 1964–65.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that in a year which heralds a considerable future expansion in Her Majesty's Navy it is desirable to place even more emphasis than usual on the reserves and particularly on cadet forces? Secondly, in view of the shortage of Fleet Air Arm flying personnel, to which he has drawn attention, will he consider having an air branch of the naval side of the cadet organisation?

I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that we need to place a good deal of emphasis on the cadet side of our affairs. I should like to consider his suggestion and perhaps have a word with him about it.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what is the estimated minimum re-engagement rate for naval ratings completing nine-year engagements which can be accepted in relation to the fleet manning programme after 1965.

Re-engagement is only one of the factors which determine the strength of the Fleet, and must be considered together with other important factors such as recruitment and wastage. I cannot therefore say that there is any special rate below which re-engagement should not fall.

Is not the present rate of re-engagement sagging rather noticeably, and does not this have a rather menacing effect on the future strength of the Navy? Observing that perhaps three-quarters of the Royal Navy is now east of Suez, is not re-engagement likely to slow down still further because of the arduous conditions of service to which the bulk of officers and men are now subjected?

As I said in the debate on Monday, one does not want to exaggerate this problem. The present rate of re-engagement in the Navy is high and we must continue to keep it high. To the best of my knowledge, there is no reason to expect that re-engagement will suffer to any great extent as a consequence of a large proportion of the Fleet being east of Suez.

Nobody would wish to exaggerate this, but in view of its undoubted importance would the hon. Gentleman state the present strength of nine-year men? The White Paper gives the figure only for twelve-year men.

I cannot give figures or percentages like that without seeing a Question on the Order Paper, for the simple reason that different re-engagement rates apply.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty (1) which of Her Majesty's ships will visit Welsh ports this year; and if he will give particulars of the ships and their complements;

(2) which of Her Majesty's ships will visit the port of Barry this year; on what dates such visits are proposed; and if he will give particulars of the ships and their complements.

On present plans, and subject to overriding operational commitments, it is intended that 13 of Her Majesty's Ships will visit Welsh ports this year. I will circulate the names of the ships and their complements in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Apart from the fact that Her Majesty's Ship "Urchin" will be visiting Port Talbot from 17th–20th of this month, I regret that I am unable at present to say which other ports will be visited and whether Barry will be included. The local authorities concerned have not yet been consulted.

Will my hon. Friend take note that in one or two previous years Barry has been omitted for some reason and that I hope that that can be rectified this year, as the people of the town are most anxious that a ship should visit the port?

I can give my hon. Friend the assurance for which he has asked.

The hon. Gentleman will remember that when I complained about the small number of ships in the Mediterranean he asked me whom we were going to fight. Whom are we going to fight in the Welsh ports? I realise, of course, that these visits are welcome by both English and Welsh ports. Will the hon. Gentleman publish a full list of visits, not only to Welsh ports but to other ports in the United Kingdom, for the next 12 months?

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question was answered by the second. I will consider the third.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that although we are always glad to see R.N. ships in Welsh ports, we would prefer to have some more naval ships for refitting purposes rather than ceremonial visits?

But the hon. Gentleman will realise that we already have some very big naval dockyards where most of our refitting work is done.

asked the Secretary of State for War what discussions his Department has had with the local authorities at Leeds and Nottingham regarding the provision of housing for employees of the Royal Ordnance Factory, Woolwich, accepting employment at the Royal ordnance factories in these two cities.

The War Department has had exploratory discussions with the local authorities at Leeds and Nottingham, which are sympathetic but have long waiting lists for council houses. They will, however, allow exchanges between tenants of local authorities now in the Woolwich area and others now in Leeds or Nottingham. There are also possibilities of housing, sponsored by the local authorities, at unsubsidised rents. Discussions with the local authorities will be resumed when we know how many workers wish to transfer.

Does my hon. Friend realise that there are many redundant employees at the R.O.F., Woolwich, who are very anxious to remain in Government service and who are prepared to go to Leeds or elsewhere but who have a council house now and cannot get another if they move to a new area? Will he have another look at this matter to see whether there is a way in which to assist these people, who have been in Government service for a long time, to purchase a house?

We cannot give capital assistance, but legal and other expenses or house purchase are reimbursed within certain limits and excess rent allowance may also be payable. We do not yet know the size of the problem and when we do we will get in touch with the local authorities again.

asked the Secretary of State for War what was the intake of trained civilian fitters last year; and how many were trained in the same period by War Department apprenticeship schemes.

350 and 71 respectively.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am receiving complaints from my constituency that these trained men are being attracted away by the War Department which is not training sufficient itself to replace them?

We are training one apprentice to every eight craftsmen, which seems to us a reasonbly satisfactory performance. I do not think that we can be attracting too many trained men away, because we have only the R.E.M.E. workshop at Bovington and there are only 24 apprentices there.

asked the Secretary of State for War what proportion of the Glen Parva Barracks site at Wigston is needed for War Office use; and if the remainder will now be released for other public use.

About a fifth of the barrack site is required for continued military use: the remainder is being offered to other Government Departments but, if no bids are received, the normal process of disposal will be followed.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he remind other Government Departments when offering the site of the desirability of decentralisation from Whitehall?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for War which field marshals are on active duty; and what emoluments and services are provided for those who are non-active.

At present there are no field marshals serving on active duty Excluding the four Royal field marshals, the remaining eight who are not actively employed receive "half-pay" which is currently £3,300 a year. They are not entitled to other emoluments or services, except when they perform specific duties when they receive services appropriate to their rank.

How does the right hon. Gentleman justify paying this large salary to the Maharajah of Nepal, for example? Does this mean that there are two people who are receiving half pay for each of the three Services and that one is receiving half pay for two of the Services? That does not seem to make sense.

I included His Majesty the King of Nepal in my reference to the Royal field marshals who do not draw any pay.

Why should they?

I should have thought that the rank of field marshal was one which the country was glad to see awarded to those who had given distinguished military service.

May I say how glad I am to hear that the Royal field marshals and the King of Nepal are not included on the pay list? That clears up the matter I had in mind.

Will my right hon. Friend reject this insidious suggestion by the Opposition that ex-Service men, no matter what their rank, should be deprived of the pensions which they have properly earned?

asked the Secretary of State for War what contracts have been awarded by his Department to Messrs. Brocks Crystal Palace Fireworks Ltd.

Two contracts have been placed with this firm since November, 1959, when the responsibility for the purchase of pyrotechnics was taken over from the former Ministry of Supply.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware of the deplorable working conditions and wages paid by this company, especially to young workers who in this part of Norfolk have difficulty obtaining employment elsewhere? Is he aware that these workers work long hours and are represented by the National Union of General and Municipal Workers, but that the management has consistently refused to discuss these matters? In view of the fair wages clause which operates in all Government contracts, will the hon. Gentleman consult other Service Ministers to see what methods will be used in future in the placing of contracts with this company?

This company is one of a number asked to tender. It has had two contracts since 1959, but I will look into the point about the fair wages clause which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) how many former National Service men now on the Reserve have, within the last three months, received railway warrants, travel instructions and notification that they are preposted to certain units in the event of their units being recalled; and what is the purpose of these notices;

(2) why certain former conscripts who completed their service more than 31 years ago are now receiving railway warrants, cash vouchers for 10s. and reservists instruction books.

It is not possible in the time available, and without a great deal of effort, to state how many former National Service men have received such instructions in the last three months. The purpose of these notices is to instruct Reservists what they are to do in the event of mobilisation.

The issue of these instructions is a continuous process made necessary by the need to provide replacements of pre-posted Reservists when individuals cease to be liable. There has been an increase in activity in this field as a result of the passage of the Navy, Army and Air Force Reserves Act, 1964, which released some 800,000 men from liability, of which a number was preposted.

Does the Government's denial of any intention to recall these men hold good? If so, why send them these notices? Is the Under-Secretary aware that many former conscripts received these notices not when they had completed their service but in the last few weeks, and that this fact has greatly upset them, especially when they have young wives, or live with their parents, and especially since there is no mention on the notice that it is a purely precautionary measure? Will the Government look into this question again?

I hope that what I have said makes it plain that this is a purely routine and precautionary measure, and has nothing to do with the present military situation overseas.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us, in round figures, how many Reservists at any one time are equipped with warrants and instructions, so that they can be made immediately available?

I should require notice of that question.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will allow Royal Ordnance factories to tender in open competition with private firms for articles which they are equipped to produce.

Yes, Sir, where this is appropriate. But the bulk of orders of this kind is, in accordance with the preferred source policy, allocated to the Royal Ordnance factories without private firms being invited to tender.

Is the Minister aware that an order for rocket motor tubes has been transferred from the Royal Ordnance Factory at Patricroft, to Bristol Aerojet Ltd., in spite of the fact that both management and men at Patricroft are convinced that they were doing the job more cheaply? How does he line this fact up with the point about a preferred source of supply, and justify this action?

I am aware of this point. This was a decision made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation. He is responsible, and not I. But the reason for the decision was explained in the reply which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation made to the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. C. Royle) on 15th January of this year.

That reply said that the reason was that Bristol Aerojet Ltd. was doing research and development work as well. Is the Minister aware that the R.P.E. at Westcott and I.M.I. at Kidderminster are also engaged in the same kind of research and development work as Bristol Aerojet Ltd. Could not they have worked in conjunction with the R.O.F. Patricroft so that we could have got a real bargain for the country?

That may be so, but this is a matter for the Minister of Aviation, and not for me.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the reason for the decline in recruiting for the Army in Scotland.

Although the number of recruits from Scotland fell between 1962 and 1963, the decline was slightly less than the average for all areas.

In the first eight weeks of 1964, 361 recruits were enlisted in Scotland compared with 371 for the same period in 1963.

Can the Minister explain the trend in recruiting in Perthshire, which is represented by the Prime Minister? Is he aware that after the Prime Minister had made 50 speeches in his constituency the number of recruits was halved, and that in January only four enlisted? Does this mean that the Prime Minister has become the independent recruiting deterrent? How does the right hon. Gentleman explain the situation in the constituency of the Secretary of State for Scotland, where nil recruits were obtained? Is this due to the presence of the Polaris base in Holy Loch, or to the people of Argyllshire trusting to Providence and Providence being handicapped by the Secretary of State?

My original Answer shows the dangers of hon. Members attempting to generalise from one or two examples in Scotland. I would refer the hon. Member and his generalisations to the fact that the whole trend in Scotland is satisfactory. I had hoped that now that the hon. Member has finished one book about one Prime Minister he would have had more time in which to devote himself to helping us with recruiting, in which he has been so successful in the past.

On a point of Order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I hope to raise the matter at the earliest possible moment in the debate on the Army Estimates.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what encouragement he is giving to commercial oyster fisheries in Scotland.

Research into the breeding and rearing of oysters off the west coast of Scotland has been carried out by scientists of the Scottish Marine Biological Association, which is grant aided from public funds. Largely as a result the former commercial oyster fishery at Loch Sween has been revived in recent years, and interest is being shown in the commercial development of two other areas where there were commercial fisheries in the past.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but can he help further by removing one anomaly, as a result of which salmon fishings are not rated whereas commercial oyster fishings are?

What my hon. Friend says is true, as a result of rerating which took place in 1958. As he will realise, a review of the rating system is to be under-taken in the not distant future. Perhaps that would be an appropriate time for him to raise the matter.

In connection with the experiment of keeping the oysters in the oyster beds, has there been any attempt to investigate the possibility of undertaking simultaneous experiments to breed pearls in these oysters, with a view producing a greater quantity of Scottish pearls?

I cannot answer that question without notice, but such is the attraction of the possibility that I shall certainly draw this proposal to the attention of the research association.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many children are attending special schools in accordance with section 32(4) of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1962.

At January, 1963, the latest date for which figures are available, there were 10,549 children attending special schools. Of these, 1,135 were aged 15 and a further 74 were aged 16 or over.

Does not the Under-Secretary agree that, since these children are compulsorily required to attend school until they reach the age of 16, they are being educated according to the Act and according to their aptitude and ability? In view of that fact, will not she make representations to her right hon. Friend to give way on the question of affording bursaries to the parents of such children?

I realise the problem involved in the fact that these children do not receive higher school bursaries, but the hon. Member will remember the debate we had on this matter a year ago. The problem is that if we gave bursaries in this case we should create other anomalies.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the estimated cost of providing bursaries for children attending special schools compulsorily to the age of 16 years, similar to those provided for children attending normal schools after the statutory age of 15 years.

The total cost might be about £15,000 a year.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the Minister of Education, replying to a similar Question, said that in England and Wiles there were about 7,000 such children between those ages, and that the estimated cost is £10,000£15,000? In view of the very small number of children and the almost infinitesimal sum of money involved, compared with the huge sums which are spent by this Home on other matters, is it not time that both Departments got together in order to sort out this very real grievance?

As I said before. I recognise the problem. But I am sure that the hon. Member realises that this would involve legislation.

Will the hon. Lady take into account the fact that this step is necessary to assist the parents of these children? Does not she agree that the sum of money involved is so small that something ought to be possible for these children throughout the United Kingdom? Will she impress upon her right hon. Friends that on this occasion Scotland should show herself to be an example to the rest of the United Kingdom, and make a grant in respect of these children? Does not she also agree that it would not mean much of an alteration to the Act to bring such a provision into operation? It would probably go through on the nod.

I agree that the sums involved are not very large in respect of either country, but legislation would be involved, and we could not manage it this Session.

Does not the hon. Lady appreciate that, with the help of the Opposition, she could secure that legislation easily and quickly during this Session? May we have, not just sympathy and understanding, but a little more generosity from the Government?

I could not promise legislation during this Session.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, what steps are taken to ensure that there is genuine competition in the tendering for publicly-financed contracts.

The field covered by publicly-financed contracts including those which involve Exchequer grants is very wide indeed, but contracts for which my right hon. Friend is directly responsible are placed, with a very few exceptions, in competition by open or selective tendering.

How does the hon. Gentleman explain what happened when oil companies tendered for the heating of the Edinburgh hospitals and four of them quoted the same price to the last 100th of a 1d.—8·12d. per gallon? Does not that suggest to the Minister that there was a price-fixing arrangement between the companies? If he is so convinced, will he refer the matter to the Restrictive Practices Court?

My right hon. Friend does not draw that conclusion. The oil companies were asked by the hospital board to confirm that the board was right to use the present bulk contract rate for planning purposes. Four of these companies confirmed the figure of the hospital board and two quoted a slightly lower round figure.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this has been a com mon practice in this kind of contract in other parts of Scotland, in addition to the Edinbugh hospitals?

I could not reply to that question without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that firemen under his jurisdiction in Scotland who are employed for fire prevention have now to use part of their time in cleaning out fire stations; and what steps he is taking to employ cleaners and thus to release firemen for the discharge of their proper duties.

The duties on which firemen are employed are a matter for fire authorities, always provided that they secure efficient arrangements for fighting fires and advising as to prevention. The employment of cleaners is also a matter for fire authorities and my right hon. Friend has no power to give directions in this matter.

Are not these brave and skilled firemen especially trained in the technique of the prevention and extinction of fires, and is it not a disgraceful waste of their skill and technique that they should be forced to do unskilled work such as that adumbrated in the Question? Is not this a position which ought to be rectified and will the Secretary of State take steps to rectify it?

The responsibility for laying down the form of conditions of service rests with the National Joint Council for local authorities' fire brigades. I agree that fire prevention is most important and steps are being taken to train more fire prevention officers to enable fire authorities to improve their service to the public.

Does the hon. Lady appreciate that this aspect of fire fighting has been neglected? Would it not be better if, instead of spending so much time on spit and polish, firemen were enabled to visit factories and similar places so as to see the difficulties which they might have to face in the event of a fire in the factory, and also to take steps to ensure that an outbreak of fire would be most unlikely to happen?

I agree that fire prevention is of prime importance, but the Secretary of State has no power to direct the manner of the duties which firemen carry out.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many decrees for debt were issued in Scottish courts in 1951, 1955, 1960, and 1963, respectively.

The figures for 1963 are not yet available but I shall, with permission, circulate the figures for 1962 and the earlier years in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Cannot the noble Lady give the figures now? Can she say whether there has been a substantial increase in the figures since 1951? Can

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the number of human lives lost in fires in Scotland during each of the last 10 years; what are the reasons for the increase in such losses during recent years; and what steps he has taken and proposes to take to minimise such losses.

I am circulating the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am unable to identify with certainty the factors which have contributed to the regrettable increase in the last two years but my Department is studying the problem in consultation with the Joint Fire Research Organisation.

Meanwhile, legislation has recently been passed to reduce fire risks in factories, and in offices, shops and railway premises, and similar legislation is being considered for residential establishments she break them down to show how much of this small debt is due to the activities of the Napier firm? May we expect some reduction as a result of the passing, we hope very soon, of the Hire Purchase Bill?

I do not think that I will detain the House by reading all these figures, but I will give the general trend. There has certainly been a considerable increase since 1951. There are no separate statistics of decrees obtained in respect of hire-purchase debts. Therefore, I could not give an answer in reference to the one company mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. I agree that the Bill now before the House should give, much greater safeguards to the consumer.

Will the noble Lady give figures which show that there is a real and dangerous increase in the number of fires occurring in Scotland? Does she deny that this is due to the firemen—these skilled and brave men—being forced to divert their energies, instead of concentrating on the work for which they were especially trained?

I said that I am circulating the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I gave an indication that the last two years have shown an increase. I quite agree, as I am sure the House will agree, that the work of fire prevention and fire fighting is one of the most gallant jobs which can be undertaken. I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that more training is being done in fire prevention.

Is the noble Lady aware that there has been a tremendous increase in the load placed on domestic electrical wiring systems because of the increased use of electrical appliances in homes? Does not she think that the time has arrived when we should establish a fire inspection service so that the insulation and bonding of electrical circuits in factories, offices and homes could be examined, as this is frequently the cause of fires, particularly in the homes?

I agree that a large proportion of fires occur in homes. I said that consultations are taking place now about whether we can have further legislation on fire prevention.

Is the noble Lady aware that there has been an alarming increase in fires occurring in dwelling houses? Does she realise that one of the main reasons is lack of liaison between local authority architects, for example, and fire prevention services? Will she consider referring to the Secretary of State the suggestion that there should be better liaison so that before housing is approved the Ministry is satisfied that the fire prevention department of a local authority has vetted it?

Consultations are going on now between the local authorities and all those interested about the type of legislation we may have, and of course there are the new building standards in respect of new homes.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies to both those Questions, I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter during the debate on the appropriate Scottish Vote.

The hon. and learned Gentleman must give notice with regard to one Question and not two at once.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his policy for the herring drift net fleet; what is his estimate of the optimum number of vessels over the next 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

The policy of Her Majesty's Government is to provide reasonable financial support for herring fishing, whether with drift nets or other gear, by way of grants and loans for boats and operating subsidies.

I do not think that a meaningful estimate of the ideal herring drift net fleet can be given because it appears to depend on the season and on the circumstances prevailing and most of the vessels which can be and are used for drift net fishing for herring are also used at other times and with other gear for catching white fish.

Is the Minister aware that, according to the figures from the Secretary of State, the herring drift net fleet diminished from 80 boats to 30 boats in just over two months? How long does he think that the fleet can go on under those circumstances? Is he aware that the only way to provide a basic level at which the fleet may continue to prosper and expand is to ensure a basic level of support for the herring boats which can provide a living wage for the workers?

My hon. Friend must be aware that most of the drift net fleet are dual-purpose vessels and the majority of the difference between 80 and 30 is represented by those which have turned over to white fish fishing. When the herring markets improve I have no doubt that, as usual, many fishermen will revert to catching herring.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the herring drift net fleet has diminished over the last few years and, naturally, when this has happened, every time fewer boats have gone back to herring drift net fishing? Will my hon. Friend consider this matter?

I am always willing to consider, as I am sure my hon. Friend is aware, every proposition he puts forward.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of the Forth Road Bridge; and when he expects to announce the date of the official opening.

Given a continuance of the recent favourable weather conditions, it is expected that traffic will be able to use the bridge this autumn. I should hope that it will be possible to fix the official opening date by early summer.

Will the Minister say whether it is still the intention of the Government to impose tolls on this bridge? Can he give an assurance that traffic will be allowed to use the bridge before the date fixed for the official opening?

In answer to the first supplementary question, yes. In answer to the second, the best course would be for the formal opening of the bridge and its opening to traffic to coincide. If that proves difficult to arrange because of uncertainty, other arrangements may have to be made.

Can the hon. Gentleman say, if tolls will be levied, whether the Government intend to levy tolls when traffic first starts moving across the bridge, or after the date of the official opening?

That is an entirely different question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the recommendations of the Wright Committee.

My right hon. Friend is considering the Committee's recommendations in consultation with regional hospital boards, the universities, the Royal colleges and the medical profession. I cannot yet say when a decision will be announced.

Do the Government in principle welcome this Report? Is the Under-Secretary aware that the waiting list of patients is in direct relation ship to the number of consultants? Is he aware that according to the Wright Committee 150 vacancies are in existence in the Western Regional Hospital Board area which is the worst area for N.H.S. patients waiting to be seen by consultants?

All these matters have been noted and are forming the subject of consultation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the provision of disposable sterile syringes for the general medical services of the National Health Service.

Hospital authorities in Scotland have been told that they may provide sterile syringes free of charge to general practitioners for taking specimens for examination in hospital laboratories.

While I am grateful for that Answer, nevertheless it is not a reply to try Question, which is about disposable sterile syringes in general practice. Is the Under-Secretary aware that, particularly in Edinburgh, where the figures are very clear indeed—and I am told the health authorities have reported this to the Scottish Office—there is a growing incidence of jaundice arising from the use of syringes? Might it not be a good idea to adopt this suggestion as a general medical practice both in Scotland and England? Should not we in Scotland lead the way?

It is at the discretion of regional hospital boards to supply disposable syringes to general practitioners for hospital laboratory purposes.

On a point of order. I am very sorry, but in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, which was not an answer to my Question, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter again.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects the Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Grant, which is inquiring into sheriff courts, to make its Report.

As my right hon. Friend, the Leader of the House, said in a reply to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes), on 14th February, it is not yet known when this Committee will report.

Could the noble Lady say how often up to the present this Committee has met? Could she say how it is taking evidence and what opportunities local people who use the courts have of submitting evidence? Could she tell me to what extent this Committee will inquire into the problem of the very large numbers of persons in Scotland who have been held, and seem still to be held, in prison awaiting trial?

The Committee was appointed in early August and it held its first meeting at the end of August. It is now asking for and receiving a large amount of written evidence, so far from organisations representing the courts, the legal profession, local authorities, the T.U.C., insurance interests, and the police. I am sure that it would be very glad to receive individual representations as well. As to the last part of the supplementary question, about untried prisoners, the hon. Member will know that the Lord Advocate and the Secretary of State for Scotland are analysing the recent figures and, if necessary, will refer the matter to the Grant Committee.

Does not the noble Lady realise that this is a very urgent matter, affecting the social life of Scotland, and that the matter should be expedited, not put aside in the casual way the Government appear to be doing?

There is certainly no casual manner about this inquiry, which has very wide terms of reference, and which I am sure will report as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that repayment of rates is refused by a local authority in respect of a year other than the current year of valuation, even where it is admitted that the rateable value for the year in question was entered by mistake on the valuation roll at too high a figure; and if he will introduce amending legislation to enable repayments to be made in those circumstances.

My right hon. Friend is not aware that local authorities are refusing to repay excess rate payments where these are due to errors. Provision for such repayments is made in Section 20 of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1963.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many farmers at present in receipt of hill cattle subsidy will cease to be eligible for this subsidy as a result of the review of livestock rearing farms.

Forty-four farmers have so far been notified that they will be ineligible for hill cattle subsidy in future. As I said in reply to a Question on 27th November, these farmers will be paid subsidy in 1964 to give them time to make any necessary adjustments in their husbandry. There are in addition a number of cases which require further detailed consideration before a final decision on eligibility can be reached. These cases will be dealt with as quickly as possible in order that any farmers who are likely to lose their hill cattle subsidy may have reasonable warning of the withdrawal.

I am amazed that the number is so small, but it is still a considerable number and of personal interest to the farmers concerned. Could my hon. Friend say what right of appeal is available to such farmers, how they will be dealt with and by what body?

There will be the same sort of appeal procedure as is working so well now in connection with the Winter Keep Scheme. Whether or not the same panel will do the job has not yet been decided. I should like to consider further the precise composition of the consultative panel which will advise in this particular context.

Can my hon. Friend say how many holdings will now become eligible for hill cattle subsidy as a result of getting winter keep?

I am afraid not without notice.

Is the Minister aware that this method of judging whether or not a holding is eligible for winter keep subsidy is causing a certain amount of discontent among farmers, because there is no way of being able to tell or to compare like with like? They do not know the criteria which justify getting them into the scheme or putting them out of the scheme. Would the Minister endeavour to draw up rules and regulations, probably based on arable land, to guide farmers as to whether they have a good case to go into the scheme or whether it is justified that they should be kept out?

I think that goes slightly outside the range of this Question which has to do with the appeal procedure. As I said, the appeal procedure concerning winter keep grading is working, I think, to most people's satisfaction.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has never been any time so far as I remember in the history of Scotland when there was so much discontent among the smaller farmers? Did he read that letter by a Conservative farmer in the Scotsman last Friday in which he was accused of "talking tripe"? Is he aware of the strong protests which have recently been made by the farmers of Perthshire? Now that we have the Prime Minister in the union, does not the hon. Gentleman realise that he might be expelled by the end of the year?

I read the letter with some mortification last Saturday morning. The only thing I am not certain about is whether the hon. Member is right in describing the farmer as a Conservative.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish the memorandum on rail closures submitted to him by the Highland Panel.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has not yet received the report of the Highland Panel: nor can he give any undertaking to publish it when he does.

Why should not this report be published? Is the hon. Member aware that according to Press reports of a meeting between the Highland Panel and the Secretary of State last week, this document contains detailed arguments proving that the Beeching Plan for the north of Scotland is basically misconceived? Are not the public, and are not hon. Members, entitled to know what these arguments are? Why should not this evidence be published so that we may properly judge whether the decisions of Dr. Beeching or the subsequent decisions of the Government about the Highlands railway lines are justified?

The answer is that other reports on this subject, such as the report by the T.U.C.C. to the Minister of Transport, are confidential. I think that my right hon. Friend will probably decide to treat as confidential the report to him of the Highland Transport Board, since some of the information to which the Board has access is of a confidential nature I point out to the hon. Member that consideration of such matters as industrial development possibilities and defence consideration ought to be kept confidential. As I have said, I do not think it right to publish partial statements.

Whatever the importance of keeping all defence consideration; confidential, is the Minister honestly saying that we should keep industrial development considerations confidential? Are the Government so frightened of what is happening to the Highlands that they are unable to let this information be made public? The Government art continually saying that all economic and social considerations are being taken into account before railway closures are made. Why should not this report be published so that we may all judge whether the Government are doing their job properly?

I assure the hon. Member that the Government are not frightened about what is happening in the Highlands or anywhere else. I repeat to him the logical proposition that if certain reports are confidential, it is obviously wrong to publish certain others.

Will the Minister treat this matter carefully? Much of the success of the Highland Panel is because the deliberations are confidential. Although I, as a member of the Highland Panel, know the contents of this report, I hope that my hon. Friend will treat the matter with the greatest respect, because these deliberations, being confidential, are very valuable, and we do not wish to spoil them.

Will the Under-Secretary of State bear in mind that in relation to the rail closures in this area we have had so many statements and rumours, without any names attached, which emanated from St. Andrew's House that we should welcome something as authoritative as the view of the Highland Panel? Will he bear in mind, and will the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Sir J. MacLeod) bear in mind, that this is the same Panel which said that if the Government did not do something about it—and the Panel did not make that confidential—the members would resign as a body?

asked the Minister of Aviation if he accepts the Estimates Committee's recommendation in its second Report for this Session that the Air Corporations should not have to bear the whole cost of introducing new British aircraft into service.

All the Select Committee's recommendations are being carefully considered and replies will be given as soon as possible.

Is the hon. Member aware that this matter has been raised on several previous occasions by the chairmen of both Corporations and that while the Ministry has made encouraging noises, no hard cash has ever resulted? Does he appreciate that it is important that a decision be made as soon as possible on the very heavy costs which will fall on B.O.A.C. with the forthcoming introduction of the VC10? Are the Government prepared to help them with a share of the £5 million which this is estimated to cost?

This is the sort of thing which is being considered. It is not true to say that there has been no assistance at all, because some assistance towards the cost of introducing new types of British aircraft into airline service was within the framework of the policy announced by my right hon. Friend on 15th February, 1960. The Hermes and the Herald, for example, have been receiving assistance of this kind.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the number of occasions during 1963 when either Renfrew or Prestwick airport was closed because of fog or other reasons.

Renfrew was closed for periods of about five hours on four separate days. There was no occasion on which Prestwick was completely closed.

Can the hon. Member tell me why these figures do not tally with the figures which I have already received from his office to the effect that Renfrew was closed for four days in 1963 and that Prestwick was closed for four days in 1963? Can he reconcile the information which he has just given with the information which I received previously from his own office?

I am afraid that I was not myself asked, and I do not know from which part of my office the hon. Member obtained that information. I can take responsibility only for the Answer which I give him.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the progress made to enable aircraft to take off and land in fog conditions.

The Mark 2 V-bombers and the Argosy aircraft now in service with the Royal Air Force are equipped with fully automatic landing systems. The Belfast will have a similar capability.

Fully automatic landing systems to meet the exacting safety standards for civil aircraft operations are being developed for the Trident and the VC10. An extensive programme of trials will be needed to prove the systems operationally but these aircraft and others fitted with fully automatic landing systems, should be able to operate from suitably equipped airports in poor conditions of visibility by 1969.

May we take it, then, that the system which was long pursued—F.I.D.O.—has definitely been abandoned? Is the Minister aware that according to reports the Trident landed yesterday under automatic control? May we not expect that in civil aviation automatic control will be in operation a little earlier than 1969?

The first point is to be quite sure that it is absolutely safe. That is the reason for the delay. The system which is being used is based on that developed by the B.L.E.U. at R.A.E., Bedford.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will announce his decision on which light helicopter is to be ordered for use by the Army.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now make a statement on the light helicopter requirements for the Army.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will now make a statement about helicopter requirements.

I am not now in a position to announce a decision on helicopter requirements for the Army this week, but I hope to do so very soon.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this offer by Short Bros. on the Hiller helicopter is the result of the intervention of the Ministry of Aviation in putting Hiller in contact with Short Bros. and Harland? Is he aware that this helicopter has a better stretch and also a potential of export orders on three continents?

This is the sort of factor which is taken into account in arriving at any decision.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that during last week's defence debate the Minister of Defence gave the House reason to think that this week would see a decision on the light helicopter requirement? Is he now certain that a decision will definitely be announced next week?

I certainly hope so. I regret this delay as much as does my hon. Friend, but it has been necessary for my right hon. Friend to re-examine certain financial aspects of the tenders.

Does my hon. Friend recall the Government's assurance in 1960 to bear in mind the social implications of placing orders with such firms where there is very little price differential?

Yes, Sir.

Will the Minister be good enough to indicate whether the Government are reconsidering the whole proposal? In other words, are they reconsidering the three aircraft or is the Hughes still out of it? If so, does that mean that the Government are not taking the evaluation of the Hughes into account because there was not time to have done so in view of the fact that it was completed only a week ago last Saturday?

What we are considering is a matter for the Ministry of Aviation. When the announcement is made I will answer questions on that issue.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the Innsbruck air disaster.

As the House will know, a Britannia aircraft of British Eagle International Airlines crashed during the approach to Innsbruck Airport on 29th February, 1964. It was on a scheduled service with a crew of eight and seventy-five passengers. None of those on board survived.

Under international agreement, responsibility for the investigation of this accident rests with the Austrian Government. My right hon. Friend has appointed an inspector of accidents to be the accredited representative of the United Kingdom at this inquiry: he flew out immediately. The Austrian Accident Commission has issued an interim report. The House will not expect me to comment in detail at this stage on the accident until we have received the final report.

I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that the House will wish to join me in expressing sympathy with the bereaved, and our thanks to all who under the most difficult mountain conditions sought the wrecked aircraft in the hope that there might be survivors. In addition our thanks are due to the United States Air Force for sending the specially equipped aircraft which first located the wreckage; and to other aircraft engaged in the search and to the Austrian Accidents Commission which is investigating the accident.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that we on this side of the House would wish to be associated with his remarks about the bereaved and the assistance received from other people? The hon. Gentleman mentioned the interim report. Is he aware that I at any rate regret the publication of this report, because it would appear from what Dr. Rudolf Walch has said that it is purely a preliminary report and that the evidence is quite provisional? It seems to us a most unusual procedure that after a very short inquiry this should have been done, and Dr. Walch himself agrees that the full report cannot be ready for some months. Since the report seems to condemn the human element involved, some of us would not accept that condemnation unless we are given far greater proof than we now have.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the whole House would like to feel that there was now to be a British inquiry into this accident? Does he realise that a great many questions remain to be answered, although I will not go into them today, and that the House and the country would feel more comforted if we could have a purely British inquiry, in which a total investigation could take place?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his association with the remarks I made about the tragedy. As regards the interim report, I sincerely note the views he has expressed, but I am sure that it would be wrong for me to express an opinion on the action of a foreign Government or a department of a foreign Government. As regards the public inquiry, I certainly note what he has said and will consider this when I have the final report available.

Will my hon. Friend say a word about the radar requirements for British aircraft? Is there any international agreement covering radar facilities at airports?

I understand that the plane was equipped with radar, but I have no information as to whether it was being used.