asked the Secretary of State for War if he will take steps to remove the condition barring from pension rights the widows of Regular officers who marry after they have become entitled to a pension.

No, Sir. Government pensions, like other remuneration, are given as a reward for service to the Crown. No new entitlement can arise once an officer has ceased to be actively employed by the Crown.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that widows similarly placed in Holland, Belgium, Sweden, France and the United States all get pensions? Since these pensions are a reward for services rendered, as my right hon. Friend's predecessor said, surely the date of marriage is immaterial.

On the Continent the whole basis of the service pension schemes differs from ours. I doubt whether it is valid to pick out individual differences of approach for comparison. As regards the latter part of the supplementary question, the point is that when the officer's service ceases he has earned entitlement, but if he has no wife at that point he cannot subsequently earn further entitlement for a wife or widow.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will consult the management of Coatbridge Engineering Factory, with a view to making fuller use of these premises for the repair of War Department vehicles and other requirements, as this locality has been designated a growth area.

We are already in touch with this firm, which has a substantial contract for the current year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that recently this firm lost 100 jobs because the War Office stated that it had not the machinery to maintain modern war vehicles? Will he take steps to ensure that the factory will be made capable of doing such work, for it is in not only a development area but a growth area? The loss of 100 jobs in such a place causes considerable concern.

I appreciate the difficulty, but the level of vehicle repairs of this kind is still falling because of the introduction of the vehicle casting policy, which involves the replacement of heavily worn vehicles by new ones instead of completely stripping and rebuilding old vehicles.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the difference in the weekly pay of a Maltese gunner in the Royal Malta Artillery serving in the British Army of the Rhine and a Royal Artillery gunner also in the British Army of the Rhine; and what is the difference in pay of sergeants of each regiment serving in the British Army of the Rhine.

My right hon. Friend explained the basis on which the pay of members of the Royal Malta Artillery serving in the British Army of the Rhine is calculated in his answer on 18th December, 1963. The actual sums payable vary according to length of service and trade classification. Since the details are somewhat complicated, I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing some examples.

Would it not be far more satisfactory and fairer if Maltese officers and men serving in B.A.O.R. were paid the same as their equivalents in the British Army?

No, I do not think so. I think it is right that British soldiers should be paid under the United Kingdom Pay Code and the Maltese under their own. We adjust pay and allow-

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will reconsider the sentence of three years' imprisonment passed in August on Gunner B. C. Smith by a court martial as a result of an incident at Duisburg in June 1963, with a view to reducing his term of imprisonment.

The sentence was reviewed by the Army Council on 17th December, 1963, and no change was found to be justified. Under the Army Act, 1955, sentences are reconsidered at regular intervals and the next reconsideration of Gunner Smith's sentence will take place very shortly.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this trouble arose over a birthday party for

As these people are doing the same work, surely they should receive the same pay as part of the British Army in Germany.

I cannot necessarily accept that. They enlist in the Royal Malta Artillery.

All these factors were brought out in evidence at the trial and then considered. A reduction in sentence is always considered on the occasion of the review to which I have referred, taking account of all circumstances, including the prisoner's conduct since sentence. I cannot, of course, anticipate the result of a reconsideration of sentence, but I will draw the attention of the reviewing officer to my hon. Friend's remarks.

Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that on appeal the prisoner's conduct since sentence is taken into consideration? Is not that a very undesirable principle?

I said that the prisoner's conduct is taken into consideration, and that has always been the practice.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the result of his consultations with the local planning authority about the disposal of the unused portion of the site of the former Royal Ordnance factory at Swynnerton.

I understand that the county council's planning sub-committee has considered the future use of the former Royal Ordnance factory and is now arranging to meet the Stone Rural District Council soon.

Will not the Under-Secretary recognise that any further delay in this matter is intolerable after the seven years' saga of procrastination about this 700 acres of land sterilised in North Staffordshire, and that all those concerned have had years to consider the matter? Cannot somebody summon up the courage to take a decision now to use this site for a more fruitful purpose for the people of North Staffordshire?

I hope that the decision will be taken very shortly, but I have told the hon. Gentleman before that our job is merely to get rid of the site. We are only too anxious to do that as quickly as possible, and we hope to do so before the end of the year.

Does not the hon. Gentleman know that North Staffordshire Members were promised five years ago that a quick decision would be taken? We appreciate that the War Office might want to get rid of it, but would not a little pushing somewhere hurry the business along? In the meantime, the site is lying idle and deteriorating because it is lying idle. Cannot the hon. Gentleman use a little more energy?

I am well aware of all that. We have used a great deal of energy, but there are many problems connected with the site of which hon. Members are aware. Our main concern is to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that after the seven years' delay he will set a time limit for making a decision by somebody to use these 700 acres?

I do not think that we could put a time limit on local authorities, who are very well aware of the difficulty. I hope that they will hurry up and make a decision as quickly as possible.

In view of the nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of Slate for War (1) whether he will recommend that a distinctive medal or clasp to the general service medal be issued to all ranks of military forces who have taken part in the recent operations in East Africa;

The operations in which British Forces have taken part in East Africa have been carried out with speed and efficiency and redound to the credit of all ranks, but I do not think it would be appropriate for me to recommend the issue of a distinctive medal or clasp to the General Service Medal.

Would my right hon. Friend look at that again and perhaps propose additional issues of such medals for all over seas personnel? Would not that be very welcome and stimulate a great deal of interest and enthuse the troops as a whole?

We have to bear in mind past practice with medals when considering possible fresh instances.

What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "waiting for the final outcome"? Is he waiting until our troops are actually engaged in Cyprus and being killed and wounded before the War Office decides that they are engaged on active operations? Surely they deserve some consideration in view of the strain imposed upon them.

My answer was intended to mean that I wished to have a little more time to consider the case of Cyprus before deciding whether to make a recommendation.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will release the ground at Dumbreck Road and Dumbreck Avenue, Glasgow, to Glasgow Corporation for housing purposes.

No, Sir. We require this land for a Territorial Army centre.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that Glasgow Corporation has been interested in acquiring this site for housing purposes since 1950 and that the War Office has had it since 1954 but has done nothing positive with it in connection with a T.A. centre? Is he aware that this site is in one of the most desirable parts of Glasgow, admirable for housing purposes? As the corporation is willing to provide an alternative site similarly accessible to population in the new housing areas if it can get this site, would he look at this matter again and get someone in the War Office to visit the site and see how inappropriate it is for T.A. purposes and how excellent it would be for the corporation's housing purposes?

This is the most appropriate site we know of. The other sites which Glasgow Corporation has offered us do not seem to be as good, but if it will make us a fresh offer I will certainly look into it.

Can I assure the hon. Gentleman that there are other sites equally suitable for T.A. purposes which are available? Does it not seem a monstrous use of this site, which is not particularly desirable for T.A. purposes? Will he, as he has promised, look at this again very carefully?

Certainly. I have given the assurance that if Glasgow Corporation will approach us again, we will look at it again.

Is not this a pretty general problem? Have not the War Office a whole series of sites throughout the country which are not being used to the best profit? Is it not time that property utilisation generally was considered by someone with experience of the utilisation of property?

That is another question, as opposed to the question about the specific site. The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that our building programme has to go forward according to certain priorities.

asked the Secretary of State for War to what extent the reorganisation of the British Army of the Rhine will reduce the number of British troops in Germany.

In the long term, not at all.

Has the right hon. Gentleman taken note of the fact that only yesterday H.Q. B.A.O.R. announced that three infantry battalions were to be withdrawn from Germany by the end of the year? When are the Government to abandon the arrant humbug of pretending that we shall ever be able to keep our promise to have 55,000 British Service men in Germany? Is it not time to make a clean break, to come clean and withdraw our men from Germany altogether?

We had hoped to complete the reorganisation without a temporary reduction in B.A.O.R. strength, but, in view of the need to provide against possible commitments in other overseas theatres, this is now impossible. It remains our object to reach a strength of 55,000 as soon as we can, dependent on recruitment and commitments in other overseas theatres.

Is it not a sensible act on the part of the Government, for which they deserve congratulation—which may be unique—that they have decided to withdraw some troops from Germany where they are not engaged in active operations or doing anything useful? Will the right hon. Gentleman inject them into the Strategic Reserve? Is it the intention, if troops are withdrawn from the Rhine, to send any more to Cyprus? What is to happen about Cyprus in view of the delay by the United Nations in creating the peace-keeping force? Are our men—some of them boys—in Cyprus to continue to bear the brunt of the trouble there? What is to happen to them?

That is another question. The House and the Government share the right hon. Gentleman's concern that arrangements for the peacekeeping force should be speedily concluded.

Whether it be good or bad, is not the operation in B.A.O.R. broadly speaking an exchange of infantry for support troops in approximately equal numbers?

That is true as regards the long-term outcome of the reorganiation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimates for school building were submitted to him by Dunbarton education authority for the years 1963–64 and 1964–65, respectively; and what financial allocations were granted.

I approved the starting of schools to the value of £1·4 million in 1963–64 of which the authority has so far started £0·9 million worth. Its estimate was £2·9 million. For 1964–65 I expect very shortly to give formal approval to the authority's estimate of £1·3 million.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as a result of the cut-back in 1963–64 the position in Dunbartonshire is serious and that hundreds of children aged 5 will get no education until they are 5½ or 5¾? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman provide some temporary buildings in the county, in the new town of Cumbernauld, in Kirkintilloch and on Clyde Bank, so that these children can start their education at the proper time? The situation there is extremely serious.

I know of the problems of which the hon. Gentleman has spoken. It is significant that, although there was a cut in what the authority demanded last year, in fact it started only £0·9 million out of £1·4 million given to it. The problem of temporary classrooms for Cumbernauld is under consideration with my Department and we shall do the best that we can to help.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total value of the school building programme applied for by Lanarkshire Education Authority for 1964–65; and what was the actual value of the programme approved by his Department.

The authority was given in October a provisional allocation of £1·75 million as a basis for their 1964–65 programme, but the programme submitted by in envisaged starts to the value of £3·2 million. I have approved a programme of £2·1 million.

Is the Secretary of State not ashamed to give a reply of that nature? Does he realise the serious effect that the cut-down in the school building programme is having in Lanarkshire and in Coatbridge and Airdrie? Is he aware that hundreds of St. Augustine's children are being accommodated in a school which was condemned in 1932 and that we have nearly 300 children with no school at all residing in the Showhead area? Is he further aware that Airdrie High School is using accommodation which was condemned 40 years ago and that in St. Patrick's High School, Coatbridge, the appalling conditions are almost indescribable. Will not he reverse this policy and authorise the Lanarkshire Education Authority to proceed with new schools for these children immediately?

I am very well aware of the general situation in Lanarkshire because the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady have spoken to me about it. It is because of this that the allocation for Lanarkshire is so high in relation to the rest of Scotland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he published a White Paper on Central Scotland a little while ago in which he told the House that he was doing his utmost to stimulate local authorities into encouraging a great increase in infrastructure, which means, among other things, the building of schools? Does he regard as encouraging this allocating to Lanarkshire of two-thirds of the capital expenditure which it believes that it could incur in building up schools in this area?

The problem of these allocations, as I explained fairly regularly to the House last year when the problem was also acute, is not only the question of the money but of the resources. Lanarkshire, has been very forward in some of its new building techniques, and it is because of this that I have been able to give it as much as I have, and it will be able to complete the £2·1 million.

Is the Secretary of State aware that Scotland has twice the unemployment figure of the United Kingdom and Lanarkshire twice the unemployment figure of Scotland, and Lanarkshire would appear therefore to have the resources?

In the skilled building trades necessary for this, the resources in Scotland are even today extremely scarce.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much factory space is available for letting in the new town of Cumbernauld; and what steps he is taking to speed up the occupation of this available factory space.

Cumbernauld Development Corporation has 3,000 square feet of factory space available to let and will have 40,000 square feet more when two advance factories are completed in about a month's time. A number of firms are interested in these premises and the development corporation is preparing plans for further building of this kind.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every month the figures of the unemployed rise in Cumbernauld and the districts around? Will the right hon. Gentleman press on to get some tenants for these factories and do what he can to encourage industries to go to the new town, because if he does not it will soon become a dormitory town?

While I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's first statement, I can say that I know the problem of unemployment in this area. I also know that the Cumbernauld Development Corporation itself has had a very successful exhibition in London in an effort to bring new industries to that area, and also my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade is doing all that he can to help.

But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have had answers to Questions saying that the number of unemployed people registered at the Kilsyth Employment Exchange, which includes the new town of Cumbernauld, is increasing?

I understood the hon. Gentleman to be referring to Scotland as a whole. I did not realise that he was referring only to Kilsyth.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many psychiatric beds are now provided in hospitals for children and adolescents; and what is the waiting period after referral before a child or adolescent is admitted for treatment.

There are 55 assessment and treatment beds in children's units and 36 in units for adolescents in Scotland, and beds in other hospitals are made available as appropriate. There are also about 1,450 beds for children and adolescents in mental deficiency hospitals, where active work is now being undertaken. As the waiting period between referral and treatment depends upon the urgency of each case, no average period can be given, but waiting periods may range from over three years to a matter of hours depending on the circumstances.

But surely the right hon. Gentleman must be aware that that is not a satisfactory picture at all? It is shocking that a child who is referred for psychiatric treatment should be kept waiting for three years. What further proposals has the right hon. Gentleman for ensuring that when a child is referred for such examination he will not have to wait for any length of time, let alone three years?

We all accept that the present arrangements are not perfect. I do not disagree with the hon. Lady's assessment, but I think that the Scottish Health Services Council's Report on Medical Services for Child Guidance, which the regional hospital boards have and are studying, will help. It is not just a problem of buildings; it is a problem of staff as well. In cases of urgency, children can be admitted in a matter of a few hours. That is the best that we can do at this precise moment.

Surely it is the under statement of the year for the right hon. Gentleman to say that the present arrangements are not perfect? It is some time since we passed the Mental Health Bill. We have been pressing the Government to do something along these lines for a long time, and now to be offered study, which means further delay, is not good enough. Can the right hon. Gentleman promise us something specific in relation to what is to be done?

I think that the allocation of beds for different purposes should stay with the regional hospital boards. They are doing their best to help, but there is no immediate point in allocating beds until staff are available to look after them.

As the Secretary of State seems to be suggesting that the difficulty is due to a shortage of staff rather than to a shortage of beds—I think that there is a shortage of both—does he think that the action of this Government in their treatment of nurses' salaries has done anything at all to attract the staff that we need?

I think that that is an entirely separate problem, because in this case a great deal of what is necessary is consultant staff. But the problem is one both of beds and of staff, and regional hospital boards should use their rapidly increasing number of beds in the most effective way.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what changes he proposes it the ambulance service to ensure that no patient is unduly delayed either on the journey to hospital or from hospital to his home.

The Scottish Ambulance Service has recently issued a letter to all staff drawing attention to an unfortunate incident in the hon. Lady's constituency and reminding them of the importance of avoiding delay to patients, especially those who are ill, elderly or frail.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that that action will be sufficient, as the case which I drew to his attention is by no means the only one that has occurred? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that another constituent of mine who was dangerously ill was collected by ambulance, but before she was taken to hospital the ambulance went to the other end of the village to collect two ambulant patients and when they arrived at the hospital she was dead. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave dissatisfaction about the present position? Cannot he tell those in charge of the ambulances that much more is needed to ensure that people get fair and adequate treatment?

I have already written to the hon. Lady about the unfortunate case which she referred to me and have added my apologies to those of the Scottish Ambulance Service, which was very disturbed bout what had happened.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to prohibit the use of the gin trap in Scotland.

Every effort is being made to find a satisfactory alternative to the gin trap for catching foxes and otters. As soon as the efforts are successful, these two remaining permissible uses for the gin trap in Scotland will be prohibited.

When my right hon. Friend speaks about permissible use for foxes and otters, will he explain how, even if a gamekeeper puts up a notice "For foxes and otters only", foxes and otters can be expected to read it? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the use of this horrible and cruel device in this day and age is quite indefensible, and has his attention been drawn to the Canadian device which has proved successful for this purpose?

I understand my hon. Friend's doubts about the ability of foxes and otters to read, but it is also true that in places where these traps have been used for these two types of vermin anything else that goes into them is likely not to be a very desirable species, to put it no higher than that. It is a horrible and cruel method of catching these animals, but great cruelty is also caused by foxes to lambs and other creatures. If my hon. Friend lets me have details of the Canadian weapon, we shall certainly have it looked at by the Committee which studies these things.

What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking through schools, colleges and universities to warn young people about the dangers of other attractive gin traps which are increasing in number at street corners and wreaking social havoc among our young people, and about which many people are concerned?

It is a rather different question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) when section 1 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act, 1963, making it mandatory for the courts to call on reports before sentencing young first offenders, is to be brought into operation;

The provisions of the Act relating to reports on young offenders and to young offenders' institutions are closely associated, and it is planned to bring them into operation together early in 1965. Work to provide separate accommodation for young offenders by adaptation and by new building is in hand at Edinburgh and Dumfries; the small unit required for girls will be erected this year at Greenock.

I thank the Secretary of State for that Answer, but would he not consider it worth while drawing a distinction between the buildings required for these institutions and the implementing of the provisions of the Act calling for reports? Is it not elementary commonsense that in the case of young offenders there should be a proper report on the home and other circumstances before deciding the appropriate sentence?

I agree that this is technically possible, but my advisers think that it would be better to bring these two provisions of Section 1 of the Act into force together.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how far he has got with the development of Polmont, and is this type of institution to be added to the existing one? Is it now complete and likely to be occupied soon?

If the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I shall certainly answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the concern in Glenrothes, Fife, at the lack of hospital maternity accommodation in the new town; and, in veiw of the fact that the birth rate there is higher than the national average and that the population is expected to increase to 55,000 in the next few years, whether he will take urgent steps to provide further maternity hospital facilities.

The South-Eastern Regional Hospital Board is at present completing a review of the hospital maternity services in the Region, in which it will take into account the expected growth of Glenrothes. Until the regional board reaches a decision it would be premature for me to comment.

Why has it taken so long for the regional hospital board to get round to this problem? I have been complaining about this and I have reflected the complaints of the Glenrothes population for many years. Meanwhile, the population has not only got larger but the birth-rate is increasing, since the population is very much younger than the national average. Moreover, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that young couples are very often many miles away from their parents and, therefore, they have to get hospitalisation for maternity accommodation? Will he bring these points to the attention of the regional hospital board so that it can make a very urgent decision on these questions?

I hope that we shall get its decision very soon, and I am informed that the matter was considered at a meeting of the regional hospital board's medical services committee on Monday of this week. I know the importance of this problem for the area.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects legal aid in criminal causes in accordance with the Criminal Justice Act, 1963, to be made available.

A considerable amount of preparatory work has still to be done and it will not be possible to bring criminal legal aid into operation before October.

Did not the Under-Secretary of State during the passage of the Measure give a promise that legal aid in criminal causes would be introduced on 1st April, 1964? In view of the long history of Government procrastination over a period of many years, is it not extremely disappointing that there should be this further delay in introducing this scheme? Can nothing be done to hurry things up?

It is true that my noble Friend made it clear that she could not give a firm date, during the passage of the Bill, for the introduction of criminal legal aid, but she hoped, as we all did, that it would be possible to bring it in in April. A great deal of work has had to be done. Subordinate instruments have to be made by the Secretary of State, the High Court and the Law Society of Scotland, and the Law Society has had to undertake a great deal of preparatory administrative work. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there has been no slackness among these people, who are all keen to bring this in as soon as possible.

Is the Minister aware that, whatever the nature of the preparatory work in bringing this very necessary part of the Act into operation, the delay is perpetrating a continuing injustice in the case of many poor people who cannot bring their cases before the court because they have not the money to do so, and will he take steps to get on with this preparatory work and see that this part of the Act is brought into operation?

I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that everyone is as keen as he is and I am to bring this in at the earliest possible moment, but we must have the preparatory work completed.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the University Grants Committee on the siting of the proposed new university in Scotland; and what steps he intends to take to speed up the decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the University Grants Committee concerning the siting of the proposed new university in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the delay in announcing the site of the new university in Scotland, what information he has received from the University Grants Committee about the date when this decision will be published.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what communications he has now had from the University Grants Committee on the site of the new university for Scotland.

The University Grants Committee has had an exploratory discussion with my departments about some of the factors to be taken into account in considering the location of the new university. As regards the date of any decision, I would refer the hon. Members to the Answer given yesterday by my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord President of the Council.

When is the right hon. Gentleman going to get out of the situation of kowtowing to the English Ministers, whether it is the Lord President of the Council or the Minister of Transport? Does he agree that the implication of the Answer given yesterday was that there is no sense of urgency in this matter, and, if he does, what is he himself doing to inject this sense of urgency into the U.G.C. and others concerned?

I do not believe that there was any implication in the Answer given by my right hon. Friend yesterday that there was no sense of urgency. As I understood it, he said that it was more important to get the right decision than to rush the matter and perhaps get the wrong one. I am perfectly certain that a decision, and the right decision, will be taken before many months have passed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday we were told that the University Grants Committee had a number of other things to do before it could visit these sites? If the University Grants Committee is not big enough to get on with urgent work urgently, should not the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the appropriate quarter to get the Universities Grants Committee enlarged so that this work can be done quickly?

These are questions for my right hon. and learned Friend. I am very willing to discuss the matter with him and see how quickly this can take place.

Is the Secretary of State aware that if I had wanted to know what the Lord President of the Council had said I would have put down a Question to him? I want to know what consultation the right hon. Gentleman has had with the University Grants Committee, and whether it has given him any indication of a date for the new University of Scotland. After all, the right hon. Gentleman is Secretary of State for Scotland.

I am well aware of the truth of the hon. Member's last remark. I am also aware that it is not unusual, at Question Time, to try to spread my responsibilities somewhat wider than they already are. But, as I said in answer to the Question, I have not had any personal contact with the University Grants Committee, although it has been having discussions with my Department.

Why has the right hon. Gentleman had no personal contact?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that in Scottish matters he is not subordinate to the Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science? Before he does so, when he considers the question of fixing the site, will he bear in mind that besides being a point of great academic growth the university will also be a point of great industrial growth? Will he keep that fact in mind when he is urging the matter on the U.G.C.?

I appreciate the force of the request contained in the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. As to the first part, the House knows the division of responsibility between my right hon. Friend and myself in connection with universities.

You get on with the job.

If there is one thing that the House does not know it is exactly that. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is about time that he took personal action in this matter? It may be that in respect of other parts of the country the U.G.C. has other important matters to consider, but on the question of universities in Scotland the most urgent requirement now is to take the first step of locating the site for this university, and then to get on with the job.

The question is being looked at urgently. That is why my Department is in touch with the U.G.C.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking to encourage the use of branching teaching machines in teachers' training establishments; and if he will state the amount of Government finance devoted to such branching teaching machines in teachers' training colleges in Scotland.

A number of colleges are using these machines but expenditure on them cannot readily be separated from the colleges' expenditure on equipment generally. I have agreed to the appointment at Aberdeen College of Education of a lecturer with a special interest in research in programmed learning and he is collaborating with the education authorities and with the University Automatic Teaching Research Unit.

Why cannot they be separated? It is only a question of simple arithmetic.

Answer.

I am sorry to say that I was unable to hear the nature of the hon. Member's question.

It was a quite simple one. Why cannot these figures be separated? It must be known how many branching teaching machines there are in each training college. It is merely a question of addition.

It will be known in a few weeks. I have written to local authorities asking them for this information.

This Question is about teacher training colleges and not about local authorities.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us what is a branching teaching, machine?

It is a rather complicated instrument. I will write to my hon. Friend if he would like to know the precise difference between linear and branching teaching machines.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will allocate earmarked grants to local authorities willing to conduct experimental projects in the use of branching teaching machines.

I am encouraging the growing interest among education authorities in this field, but I have no power to make earmarked grants to them for experimental work.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that development costs for this sort of hardware runs to six figures? Does he admit that this delay often puts developers in a fairly embarrassing situation, and that a working party consisting of his Department, local authorities and developers would at least provide, some idea of where pioneering firms stand?

This may well be something which will come about in the future. At the moment, I have given a grant to the University of Aberdeen to assist in research. In this country at least, all these machines are still in the experimental stage. Local authorities are keen to use them and I am keen to help them as soon as I know how effective they can be.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that these machines enable teachers to teach more children in a class, or to teach them better than they are being taught at present, and that they obviously have a considerable future? Teachers are gratified to take them up and they should receive every encouragement to do so.

That is broadly what I am trying to do at the moment.

On the previous Question, which concerned teacher training colleges and had nothing to do with local authorities, the right hon. Gentleman said that he had written to local authorities. On this Question, which relates to local authorities, will he write to teacher training colleges?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last reviewed the regulation which requires a five-year old child to walk two miles before transport to school is provided; and whether he will now review this regulation in order to reduce this distance.

The present statutory definition of "walking distance", for the purposes of reasonable excuse for non-attendance, dates from 1945. Education authorities are, however, empowered to make arrangements for transport and other facilities, without reference to any particular limit of distance, as they consider necessary. I will be glad to look into any particular case.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what criteria he has based his assessment of the prices which would need to be paid for the herring catch to bring about an increase in the number of the herring drift net fleet.

I have not attempted any such assessment. I would expect the herring drift net fleet to increase as it usually does when the Scottish summer fishing begins.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the Buchan ports the herring drift net fleet diminished from 80 boats to 30 boats in a period of just over two years, owing to the starvation prices paid for herring to be converted to fishmeal and oil? If an economic price had been paid for these herring the herring fleet could have survived, and the fishmeal and oil trade could also have done good business.

I am aware of the exact position and the number of the herring drift net fleet, because my hon. Friend has told me quite often. Nevertheless, it is true that in many years in the past—indeed, last year—the fleet dropped to about 40 at this time of year. I hope that fair herring prices and good catches will enable the fleets to keep steady through the years, but this is something that the Government cannot control.

Can my right hon. Friend say what prices herring for fish-meal are fetching?

Not without notice.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this process of diminution has gone on for a long time? It used to be 40 boats, and now it is 30. How can what my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State described the other day as reasonable financial support be regarded as such if the industry continues to diminish in spite of it?

I have not yet had an opportunity of seeing the operating accounts for the herring fleet for 1963. My impression is that over the whole year it has not done badly, but I cannot give a firm answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are his plans to restore the overall catching strength of the herring drift net fleet to at least 80 boats.

Drift-net fishing for herring is usually on a small scale at this time of year and I have no reason to suppose that the fleet will not increase when the summer fishing gets under way in May or June.

Has my right hon. Friend any record of the amount by which the herring drift net fleet has decreased in numbers since 1946?

If my hon. Friend will put down a Question I will give him the Answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the method of classification of prisoners in Scottish prisons according to age, sentence and record; what psychiatric and other evidence is relied on; and why requests by prisoners asking to be transferred to facilitate visits by members of their families are refused.

The classification of prisoners by age, sentence, and record is designed, in their own interests, to bring together those of similar character. A prisoner is classified at the prison of first committal, psychiatric advice being obtained if required. If experience shows that he would be better placed in another group, he is moved. Prisoners may also be moved to allow them to follow specialist training courses, and in certain circumstances they may be transferred temporarily to be near their families. But the scheme of classification, which is designed to advance the training of prisoners, would not work if transfers were authorised freely simply to facilitate visits.

Does the Secretary of State not realise that visits by parents, wives, husbands and, perhaps, children may play a very important part in the reformation and rehabilitation to good citizenship of prisoners? Should not he therefore facilitate such visits, in the hope that they will help to reform prisoners? An instance is the case of the Aberdeen prisoner in Perth prison, about whom I wrote to the right hon. Gentleman asking for his return from Perth to Aberdeen, where he could be visited by his wife, who is expecting a child.

I agree that under proper conditions visits are an important part in rehabilitating the minds of prisoners, but many other factors have to be taken into account, as I said in my Answer. Wherever there is genuine need and the prison authorities think that a prisoner's mental health—if it is the correct expression—will be improved by visits, they do their best to arrange them.

What are the other factors?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the growing need for increased remand home accommodation for girls; and what steps he is taking to provide such facilities.

Overcrowding in remand home accommodation for girls has not been a serious problem. I have, however, recently approved a proposal by the corporation of Dundee for a new remand home with some additional places for girls.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Beechwood Remand Home takes over 50 per cent. of all the girls in this category in Scotland and that recently girls were sent to Beechwood from as far away as Preston? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this matter again? Is he further aware that at Larchgrove, which accommodates 80 boys, there are sometimes as many as 117, and that they sleep in the corridors? When is the Kilbrandon Report expected, which deals with the question of courts committing young people to these places which are already overcrowded?

As I have told the House, the Kilbrandon Report will be published about Easter. As the hon. Gentleman's Question referred specifically to girls, I have not the information about boys for which he asked.

Can my right hon. Friend say when the remand home will be provided at Dundee to replace the very bad remand home which exists there at present?

I have not the exact date when the Dundee home will be ready, but I will let my hon. Friend know.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much was paid in interest on the capital debt in respect of local authority housing; and what was the average rate of interest charged for the financial years 1950–51 and 1962–63, respectively.

The available information, for the years nearest to those asked for by the hon. Member, is that the total interest paid in 1951–52 was £7·3 million and in 1961–62 £29·2 million. The estimated average rates of interest on outstanding housing debt were 3 per cent. and 4·9 per cent., respectively.

Do not these figures clearly demonstrate the reason which the right hon. Gentleman is using to compel local authorities to increase municipal rents? Will the Government now take steps to reduce this enormous sum being paid annually to the financial moguls of this country? Alternatively, will the Government increase the housing subsidies so that local authorities in Scotland can let houses at rents which the workers there, who receive a lower average wage, can reasonably afford to pay?

I do not think the problem is as simple as that. Many other factors enter into it. The cost of houses has risen. Wages in the building industry have risen by 100 per cent. There may well be factors in the housing deficits of local authorities which might be helped if they took a more realistic view.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities have had their housing subsidies reduced to £12 per year per house.

My answer to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Mr. Gourlay) on 4th March shows that 33 local authorities have qualified for the £12 rate of subsidy. Of these, three subsequently qualified for the £32 rate of subsidy in respect of later houses.

The Secretary of State will agree that this is a large number and that the slashing decrease in the housing subsidies is severely affecting local authorities in areas of high and persistent unemployment. Is he aware that the situation in these areas makes it impossible for local authorities to cope with the housing problems because of the reduction in the subsidies and that they can recoup these amounts only by increasing the rents.

But the remainder of my answer to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy also stresses that 39 authorities have had a substantial increase in basic subsidies and that these basic rates of subsidy are determined annually on the basis of the financial resources of individual authorities. Out of 40 authorities which have had their claims settled for the current year, 24 are getting subsidies ranging between £32 and £48.

Did the right hon. Gentleman find out in which areas of high and persistent unemployment there had been a reduction to £12 from £32?

Not in detail.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many farmers stopped producing milk during the years 1962 and 1963.

According to the best information available, the figures for the three Milk Boards' Areas in Scotland in 1962 and 1963 were about 230 and 300, respectively.

Is the Minister aware that hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies are becoming inundated with correspondence from dairy farmers in all parts of Scotland? Is he aware that 23 dairy farmers went out of milk production during each month of 1963? Is he further aware that farmers in North Ayrshire have been severely affected, and what does he intend to do to stop this drastic reduction in milk production?

The hon. Gentleman will know that the February Price Review, when these considerations are dealt with, will be coming out in the course of the next week or so, and that is the time when we can consider Government action.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his Answer will give no comfort to the dairy farmers because, if taken in conjunction with the recent statement that butter imports are increasing, it presupposes that the production of milk is to be reduced still further? Is he aware that this will affect the farmers in Scotland, and not only the farmers, but those engaged in producing cheese will be adversely affected? Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps immediately, with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to devise a policy to prevent dairy farmers being put out of business and bring hope to the butter and cheese producers?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, a good deal of the difficulty which farmers and the Government have experienced recently arose from the fact that the trend of milk production did not bear much relation to the expansion of the liquid milk market. The hon. Gentleman will realise my difficulty in trying to give him information on the Government's thoughts in this matter in advance of the Price Review.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is not necessarily a bad thing to have some reduction in milk farming, provided that other forms of farming are made profitable?

This has been one of the factors which the Milk Marketing Board and many farmers have hoped for, that the farmers engaged in less profitable dairy farming, particularly in the high areas, may move to beef production.

That would mean a shortage of milk next year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a White Paper on milk production in Scotland, giving the latest information about the recent decrease in incomes of milk producers.

No, Sir. The question of farm incomes generally, including those of dairy farmers, will be dealt with in the White Paper to be published after the completion of the present Annual Review.

Is the Secretary of State aware that hon. Members from South-West Scotland constituencies are being very much pressed by their farmer constituents to get some explanation from the Government of the figures given by the Government and those which they know to be the reality? Is he aware that the leading farmers' journal in Scotland has said that the Minister of Agriculture is remote from reality? Does not the Secretary of State think it time when farmers say that their rents have gone up by 125 per cent. that we should get some enlightenment as to the burden on the farmer by the landlord?

I am aware of many of these things, because I have had representations both from the N.F.U. and from all three Milk Marketing Boards. I am also in touch with probably the most efficient section of dairy farmers in the Mull of Kintyre in my constituency, but this is not the time when a statement can be made immediately before the issue of the Price Review.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many dairy farmers will go out of production because of the winter keep scheme?

I do not believe any more dairy farmers will go out of production unless they find a more profitable and more satisfactory method of farming in their areas.

Is the Secretary of State aware that farmers in South-West Scotland who are mainly concerned with milk production are very angry indeed? Does he expect us now, following the Answer he gave to his hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), to tell them that they need not worry very much, they can endure their poverty because other farmers are prosperous?

There was no such implication in what I said to my hon. Friend. The farmers will no doubt make their own assessment of the position after the Annual Price Review.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assistance has been given by the Carnegie Trust in the last two years to higher educational establishments for which he is responsible.

Central institutions received grants from the Trust amounting to £8,505 in 1961–62 and £17,759 in 1962–63.

I thank the Minister for that reply and I should like to pay tribute to the great work of the Carnegie Trust. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Trust appears to be seeking legal advice about restricting future grants to the four existing universities? Would not he agree that this would be undesirable and discriminatory? Will he use his influence to see that the new universities will also qualify, or at least will be considered for similar treatment?

I think that this is a matter essentially for the Trustees, but I will bring to their notice the matter which the hon. Gentleman has raised.