asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses the Scottish Special Housing Association has under construction; and what further contracts have been awarded to it.

The Scottish Special Housing Association has 3,286 houses under construction. Tenders for a further 184 houses have been approved while authority in principle has been given to the Association to build a further 4,000 houses.

Are not these figures rather disappointing for the Association? Is it tendering to build any houses for the new town Development Corporation of Cumbernauld? If it is not building houses for the Development Corporation, can the hon. Gentleman say why not?

As the hon. Gentleman will have heard from my Answer, the numbers for which tenders have been approved are very small in proportion to the total numbers in the authorisation ahead. I assure him that most of the building is proposed for the growth areas, in which the new towns are situated. The Association has a potential overspill building commitment of about 6,000 houses, and it is also engaged in the provision of 4,900 houses, mainly on redevelopment sites in Glasgow.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of my supplementary question? Is the Association building any houses for the Development Corporation of Cumbernauld.

I could not answer that without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many objections have been lodged against the proposal of the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board for a uniform toll charge of 2s. 6d. per vehicle; and if he will make a statement about the need for a public inquiry.

Two objections have been lodged so far; and five letters have been received containing comments on the proposed toll schedule. Objections can, however, be submitted until 20th March, and my right hon. Friend cannot yet say whether a public inquiry will be necessary.

Since it is the Government's intention to impose tolls, and if it is the Secretary of State's intention not to accept the recommendation of the Joint Board to impose a 2s. 6d. flat toll, will the hon. Gentleman say whether the Secretary of State's decision will be made before the General Election?

The Secretary of State would hope to make his decision as soon as possible after the period for objections has come to an end.

Are the objectors asking for increased tolls or for the abolition of tolls?

The objectors are against the principle of tolls and not against the rate proposed by the Joint Board or any other rate.

Could my right hon. Friend circulate information about what the savings will be with the proposed 2s. 6d. toll compared with the ferry?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be perfectly prepared to consider that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will set up a committee of inquiry into Forth Road Bridge tolls.

No, Sir. When the closing date for objections to the proposed toll schedule is reached on 20th March, my right hon. Friend will consider whether there is any need for a public inquiry under the Forth Road Bridge Order.

At the risk of being repetitive—but one has to repeat things to make the Government understand—may I ask the hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that the majority of Scottish people are opposed to this method of imposing tolls on the Forth Road Bridge? They regard it as an obsolete and inefficient way of financing the road. It imposes delays on transport and burdens on motorists who are already heavily taxed, and adds an extra burden to industry. Only recently 10,000 motorists in Scotland signed a petition objecting to it. Will the hon. Gentleman tell his right hon. Friend that if he wants to go out of office in a blaze of glory he should, before the General Election, as a final courageous gesture, abolish this toll and let road transport flow as freely across the Forth Road Bridge as it does along the M.1?

I could not accept the hon. Gentleman's comments. As one of my hon. Friends pointed out on an earlier supplementary question, on the toll proposed the motorist will pay considerably less than he now pays on the ferry or in buying petrol to drive round.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to equip traffic police with tape recorders, as an experiment for charging drunken drivers, with a view to facilitating convictions at courts as a result of the submission of the tape.

No, Sir, not at present, because meantime I think that better evidence can be obtained by existing methods.

Is the noble Lady aware that there are one or two authorities which cannot get a doctor to testify in court against a drunk driver because he is, in some cases, humiliated by Smart Alec lawyers looking for escape clauses in the law? Is she further aware that by playing the tape the sound of the voice could help the court to decide the condition of the person concerned, and would not it be a deterrent to drunken driving? Will she bear in mind that in other countries this experiment has proved quite a remarkable success and have another look at it?

I said "not at present" but there is a view that to take tape recordings of speech is not necessarily reliable evidence of, for example, slurred speech, and that existing methods are more satisfactory.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why the contract for the two new training colleges of education was given to an English firm without competitive tender, when Scottish firms who have done similar building work for the Department were ignored; and if he will reverse this policy.

No Scottish firm has constructed similar buildings for my right hon. Friend's Department. The urgency of these projects—which must be ready to take in students in October—precluded the use of normal competitive tendering.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that I have in my hand evidence from two most reputable Scottish firms who state that this argument used by the Department is fatuous and that one of them has had experience of this type of structure on behalf of the Scottish Education Department? Will the hon. Lady bear in mind that it is being alleged that one of the reasons for this state of affairs is that the representative of the London firm which got these contracts without competitive tender was a former official of the Scottish Education Department? Will the Under-Secretary investigate this matter and assure the House that Scottish firms will get fair play in future?

I am not at all aware of that allegation. The hon. Member will, no doubt, know that there was a question of urgency in the building of these projects because originally it had been hoped to adapt existing buildings, and at that time there was no firm which was known to have the exact ability and experience—

There were two firms.

—to build these colleges, which must be ready by October.

While these colleges are being constructed, will my hon. Friend use her influence to the greatest possible extent to ensure that Scottish equipment and materials are used so that the maximum amount of Scottish labour can be behind this project?

Yes. In fact, 70 per cent. of the cost is being used locally in materials and equipment.

This is a serious matter when, because of the call of urgency, we have to depart from safeguarding procedures in the way of tendering. Would not the hon. Lady be right to apologise to the House because, obviously, the urgency in this case was because the Scottish Department had been dilatory and incompetent?

No, I do not accept that. A great deal of thought had gone into seeing whether it was possible to adapt existing buildings. When that was found not to be practical, these tenders were given.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will institute an inquiry into the problem of the transportation of pulpwood chips in pipelines as a means of helping the development of Scottish forestry.

No, Sir. The possibility of this form of transport has been considered by the Forestry Commission and by users of pulpwood chips, but it seems clear that there would be no advantage in using pipelines in Scottish conditions.

Will my hon. Friend reconsider this matter, because experience in other countries shows that very large capacity vehicles are needed to transport timber, which puts a heavy burden on the roads, and, in addition, more forest roads have to be constructed to extract the timber? Will my hon. Friend please look at the matter again?

It is true that in the United States, for example, large quantities of chips can be concentrated for transport by pipeline. It has, however, been found that the economical factor is that in Canada and the United States the forests are sufficiently concentrated to provide the necessary timber from 1,500 sq. miles, whereas in this country the forests to provide the necessary chips cover about 13,000 sq. miles. It would not, therefore, be practicable or economical to do what, admittedly, has been successful in other countries.

How is it possible to fill a pipeline with chips when it is already choked with jobs?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will name the oil company which received the contract to supply the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and the Western General Hospital with fuel oil; and what assurance this company gave of fixed prices for future years.

No contract has been placed; none of the oil companies quoted fixed prices for the future.

Is the Minister aware that the importation of oil last year upset the balance of payments by over £500 million and that while the Secretary of State had no fixed prices from the oil companies, he got fixed prices from the Coal Board? As the refineries provide only 2,000 jobs here whereas the Coal Board provides over half a million, was it not a mistake not to give the contract to the Coal Board?

The hon. Member will, I think, agree that I have done my best to explain the factors on which we reached a decision, namely, that despite all these considerations at the end of the day the economic factor was greater than the marginal one which we felt would be justified.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that when he explained the position in the Adjournment debate a few weeks ago, he compared the fixed-price tendering of the National Coal Board with estimates of what the oil might cost some years hence? Is he not aware that no reasonable person could accept that as an explanation? Did not the kind of explanation which he gave on that occasion suggest to the people of Scotland that there was definite, deliberate bias in favour of one of the offerers?

It is true, and it was made clear, that there was a fixed offer from the Coal Board of the same price for two years from January, 1967, and that there was also the question of the rebate offered by the Board. It is equally true that no fixed price was quoted for oil. I accept that this is not a strictly like comparison—it is impossible to make absolutely like comparisons for a speculative future—but it is, perhaps, unfair and unreasonable necessarily to assume that oil will not come down in price. It is just as possible that it could. This is one of the intangibles.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the possibility of providing a site in Scotland for the proposed new World Health Organisation Research Centre; what replies he has sent; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has received six letters and the Scottish T.U.C. has discussed the matter with me. The World Health Organisation has not yet reached a decision on this project; but if it goes ahead my right hon. Friend will make sure that Scotland's claims to provide a suitable site are closely considered. Replies in this sense are being sent to the representations received.

Will the Under-Secretary bear in mind, however, the great urgency of this matter and that although discussions are taking place in Geneva, bids are being submitted by member countries? Czechoslovakia has staked a claim and France, Italy and Austria are expected to make claims for sites this week. In view of the fact that for many years the United Kingdom has conscientiously paid its dues to the United Nations without ever having a single major agency situated in this country, this is a unique opportunity to bring to Scotland a great research centre costing £100 million and employing more than 1,000 scientists. This could be one of the biggest things for Scotland for many years. Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that although negotiations are proceeding in Geneva, this is a matter of the utmost urgency here and now?

I assure the hon. Member that my right hon. Friend will take urgent note of what he has said.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that this project would provide many useful jobs for trained personnel whom we would like to keep in Scotland?

Yes, Sir.

This is an appropriate agency to have in Scotland in view of all our traditions in this kind of work. While we thank the Under-Secretary for his Answer, may I ask him to urge upon his right hon. Friend when—or if—he sees him that we would be glad if he would raise some greater spark of enthusiasm within the Cabinet for British support of this scheme?

I assure the hon. Member that I shall see my right hon. Friend. Unlike the hon. Member, I am not aware of what sparks are or are not raised within the Cabinet.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will instruct procurators fiscal not to waive prosecutions against diplomatic or consular personnel who break or ignore parking or other traffic rules and regulations in Scotland.

Procurators fiscal are instructed by the Lord Advocate and there are standing instructions by which, where diplomatic immunity is claimed and there is any doubt as to the person's entitlement to claim it, the case is referred to the Crown Office for consideration. Diplomatic immunity from prosecution derives from the law, not from the prosecutor's direction.

Does my hon. Friend realise that there are 6,000 people in the United Kingdom who can claim diplomatic immunity and that in London the policy seems to be to waive charges for traffic offences committed by these people? Does not my hon. Friend agree that this would be a bad policy for Scotland and that diplomatic immunity should be confined only to ambassadors and high commissioners and their immediate staffs and not to general hangers-on and bottle-washers?

Diplomatic immunity is granted on a reciprocal basis and has good reason behind it. Neither my right hon. Friend nor the Lord Advocate has received representations about difficulties in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has held an inquiry into the cause of the fire which destroyed the recently constructed building at Jordanhill Training College; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has not held an inquiry into the cause of this fire but the local fire authority told him, however, that it was caused by the ignition of a gymnasium mattress, which had been left near or in contact with an electric heater.

What steps does the hon. Lady and the Secretary of State propose to take to draw attention precisely to the increasing number of fires resulting from electrical faults? Will she draw the Secretary of State's attention to the provisions of the Building Regulations which went through this House recently insisting on greater protection in these cases?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied with the supply of artificial limbs to National Health Service patients in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

In general the arrangements for the supply of artificial limbs to National Health Service patients in Scotland are working well. There have been some difficulties in particular cases and delivery periods have been longer than my right hon. Friend would have liked. Considerable efforts are being made to improve this, and my right hon. Friend will not be satisfied until these efforts have been successful.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the considerable delays in the Edinburgh area in particular—part of which he represents—and also in certain of the smaller burghs in the west of Scotland, one of which I represent? Is he further aware that delay applies especially to surgical boots? Is he also aware of the concern that the delays are caused because so few firms supply these articles? Will he look at the question of the near monopoly position as being perhaps the reason for the delays?

I am aware of the case which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. It arose in my constituency and naturally I took particular interest. I will look into the question of surgical boots, but since 1961 their supply has improved considerably. My right hon. Friend will naturally go on doing his best.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the good work done by the Princess Louise Scottish Hospital in the construction of surgical boots and remember that its order book is never wholly full?

I will take note of that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many persons in Scotland in the last 12 months have, under the First Offenders Act, been held in prison pending consideration of sentence; and how many thereafter have not been given a custodial sentence.

My right hon. Friend regrets that this information could not be obtained without undue labour. Relevant information will be obtained from the investigation which the Lord Advocate and my right hon. Friend are undertaking into remands in custody.

Does not the hon. Lady appreciate that the labour would be well worth while if it threw some light on the statistics which have caused considerable concern in Scotland and apprised the law officers of that concern?

I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend will appreciate the hon. Gentleman's remarks.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that, as far as possible in any case, no first offender is ever sent to prison while awaiting sentence or even while awaiting admission to Borstal?

That is hardly my responsibility.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress made with the plan for the development of Central Scotland.

In reply to Question on 29th January, my right hon. Friend circulated a full statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and he proposes to publish a comprehensive review of progress later in the year. Meanwhile I should be happy to see that the hon. Member gets information on any specific point of which he cares to give notice.

I have studied that reply given on 29th January. Can the hon. Gentleman tell me in what way a change of ownership at Turnhouse Airport will affect employment in Scotland one way or another? Can he also say whether an increase in the budget expenditure of £4·2 million indicates the completion of a great deal of actual work by the end of 1965? Could he also say how the attempt to form joint working teams of the central Department and the local authorities is progressing in order to produce a phased programme of action?

The hon. Gentleman has raised three points arising from the report circulated seven weeks ago, and in order to make sure that he gets up-to-the-minute information I shall be glad to inform him as soon as I can of the very latest developments. Now I can only say, on the last point he raised, that this is a matter which my noble Friend the Minister of State put to the local authority representatives, who agreed to consider it.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When an hon. Member puts a Question of this nature, which is based on a statement made two months ago, is it not in order that he should expect an answer that shows that the Minister has some knowledge of what is taking place in his own Department?

The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that that raises no point of order.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if as part of the development plan for Central Scotland, he has yet made the reappraisal of the need for continued and improved transport facilities to serve East Kilbride, as suggested by the hon. Member for Lanark on 8th January.

As regards rail and bus services, I would refer the hon. Member to the letter which my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Transport sent to her on 13th March. As regards roads, certain improvement work is at preent taking place and other improvements are in prospect.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him why the Secretary of State himself has not replied to my letter of two months ago? The letter was addressed separately to him and not to the Minister of Transport. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Transport said that despite the naming of East Kilbride as a major growth point in the plan for the economic growth of Central Scotland, it is not possible for the Government even to look at the transport services needed for it? Is not that an utterly ludicrous situation? Is he further aware that my views on this matter are those of the people of the new town of East Kilbride and that they are shared by the Unionist and Conservative Association in my constituency.

Most of the points which the hon. Lady raised in her letter to the Secretary of State fell within the responsibility of the Minister of Transport, who therefore replied to her. We are as concerned as she is to improve the road and rail communications in and around East Kilbride.

Why does the hon. Gentleman hold that consideration of the policy of the economic growth of Central Scotland is a matter for the Minister of Transport? It was the link between that policy and the rail facilities of East Kilbride that I inquired about in the letter?

My right hon. Friend will be very glad to write to the hon. Lady about any outstanding points concerning the growth area. The particular matters in her letter were about communications and, therefore, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport replied. That is the explanation. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will, of course, take up any point which concerns him regarding the growth area.

In view of my hon. Friend's earlier reply, will he undertake to impress upon the Minister of Transport the need to retain the line which the hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) and I are so concerned about?

I take note of what my hon. Friend says.

Since the line is to go, it is difficult to know what the hon. Gentleman means when he says the Government want to improve the rail facilities in this area. In Scotland we have been flooded with reassurances that we have nothing to worry about because the Secretary of State is looking after it all. In that case, why does not the Secretary of State reply to letters?

The question of passenger services being removed has not arisen because it has not yet been advertised. When it does come up, it will be considered by the Government, who will take into consideration all the points which have been mentioned from this Box, including the economic needs of the growth area.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the size of the Scottish herring drift net fleet in 1946; and what is its size today.

In 1946 there were approximately 444 steam and motor vessels registered in Scotland mainly engaged in drift net fishing for herring. The latest comparable figure is for 1963 when 104 motor vessels were so engaged. However, the number of drifters varies seasonally, and in both years the maximum number of boats engaged in drift net fishing at any one time, and also the number of boats engaged in drift net fishing at some time of the year, would have been greater than the figures I have given.

Is my hon. Friend aware that these basic figures show a very considerable decline in the basic number of the herring drift net fleet? Will not he take steps to ensure that there is a basic level on which the industry can thrive and prosper, not only for the sake of the fishermen themselves but also for the sake of the inshore based industry which has been built up on these fish?

I agree that there has been a considerable change since 1946 and that drift net fishing in recent years has been on a smaller scale than it was then. One must remember that in 1946 there was a general shortage of protein foods and consequently a very much greater market for the British herring catch than exists today. The number of drifters at work varies. There are now about 870 Scottish dual-purpose boats capable of fishing for either herring or white fish, as the fishermen choose.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why a tower crop-store receives under the Farm Improvement Scheme a one-third grant which may amount to upwards of £1,000 if intended for grain storage but only a silo subsidy of £250 if intended to be used for silage and haylage.

The Farm Improvement Scheme covers a wide range of longterm improvements and grants under the scheme are at a uniform rate of one-third of the cost. The Silo Subsidy Scheme is designed to encourage the making of silage especially on small farms. There is a maximum limit to the grant under this scheme and the rate of grant may in practice be more or less than one-third of the cost according to the size of the silo.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he not aware that in general the farmer has to make the choice, and does he not think that this discourages the proper use of grassland?

I would not accept that, because the silo subsidy has worked so well that the silage of grass made this year is up by 200 per cent. since the grant came into operation in 1956.

In view of the fact that it is declared Government policy to ensure that public money goes only to those who can prove their need for it, what steps are taken to apply a means test to farmers to see whether they are really in need of this kind of subsidy?

The answer to that is that no means test is applied to the operation of the subsidy.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what restrictions are placed on the change of use of a building which has been erected with the help of a farm improvement grant for a specified purpose.

None, Sir. We have to be satisfied that the improvement will fulfil the statutory conditions, but the actual use is for the farmer himself to decide.

Does my hon. Friend mean that if a farmer puts up a building and obtains a grant and then uses it for something else, nothing whatever is done? Does not that make absolute nonsense of getting approval beforehand?

While I would strongly deprecate the behaviour of any farmer if he deliberately and knowingly misstated his intentions about the grant, there is no evidence that this is happening. So swiftly are the systems of farming husbandry changing that it would be most inadvisable to restrict the use of a building to the use for which it was grant-aided.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the local authorities concerned regarding the designation of the Burgh of Irvine and the surrounding districts as a growth area.

This is one of the growth areas identified in the White Paper on Central Scotland. The physical possibilities are now being studied in detail with the local authorities to provide the basis for settling what the right administrative framework for development will be.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the area has been actually surveyed by officials of his Department and whether a development plan has been agreed upon? If so, did his Department agree to the cutting out of all passenger train facilities from the direct south connection point of Kilmarnock, which leaves the new area bereft of any passenger train facilities directly with the South and London? May I further ask him, in connection with the overspill coming into Irvine and the designation of Irvine as a growth point, whether he has agreed to give Ayr County Council additional allowances for capital expenditure for the provision of schools, or has it to meet this from its already cut-down programme, about which there has been so much protest?

As I indicated, the question is still being studied. A technical study is being carried out into all the factors which need to be considered in this matter. I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman whether a survey has been carried out of the whole area, but I can inform him that one of the important matters which still needs to be known is the extent of possible subsidence in the area. As regards his inquiry about additional allowances for the Ayr County Council, that again would be something to be considered in the future as a result of this study.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects work to start on the new Hermitage Academy at Helensburgh.

Provided difficulties over high tender prices can be resolved the work should start within the next month or so.

With regard to what the hon. Lady has said about high tender prices, is she aware that the lowest tender which came in was 18s. 3d. per sq. ft. higher than the permissible amount to which the Department has agreed? Does this mean that if the local authority is to ensure savings to get it down to the amount which the Department says it should come down to, Helensburgh, which has waited so long for this school, will get a sub-standard school compared with the accommodation and amenities provided in other schools which have just been built?

No, Sir. We are determined that Hermitage Academy at Helensburgh should be a very fine school. We are at the moment going into consultations to see whether we can get these prices reduced. The standard rate was increased only in January and we might have to go over it a little.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland which authorities employ road safety officers; and how many are employed full time on this work in his Department.

Road safety officers, or accident prevention officers are employed by the County Councils of Aberdeen, Caithness, Dunbartonshire, Fife, Lanarkshire and West Lothian; by the Corporations of Edinburgh and Glasgow; and jointly by the Town Councils of Bearsden and Milngavie.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been an increase of only one road safety officer in the local authorities, and that is at West Lothian, since 1962? Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that his Department ought to have some officers employed full time on road safety work, in the same way is the Ministry of Transport has which would encourage the local authorities to do this as well? In view of the fact that road deaths went up by 45 last year and the number of injuries to children went up to 5,603, surely it is time that something more was done?

I know that my right hon. Friend will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said about accidents. I would point out that the main consideration is that road safety should be given proper attention. In many areas this is done efficiently by the police, although no road safety officer as such is appointed. The problems of road safety are closely allied to road traffic and traffic engineering generally and existing arrangements provide for the necessary measure of co-ordination.

I have had the same kind of answer for the last six or seven years, but surely when deaths continue to increase and accidents to children continue to increase we ought to have more full-time officers employed on this job.

I cannot add to what I have just said. I certainly recognise the force of what the hon. Gentleman says in trying to reduce these road accidents. I am sure that my right hon. Friend would wish to study any methods which we can find to do that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the total interest charges repayable on completion of the 60-year loan period on a local authority four-apartment house built in 1951 at a cost of £1,644, and a four-apartment house built in 1963 at a cost of £2,508.

The arithmetical total of the interest payable yearly over 60 years on a loan of £1,644 at Public Works Loan Board rates in 1951 would be £1,911, and the corresponding figure for a loan of £2,508 in 1963 would be £6,443.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that while the cost of building an average four-apartment house in Scotland has increased by only £864—according to the figures given in answer to me by his right hon. Friend last week—a considerable increase of about £4,800 in interest charges arises as a direct result of Government economic policy, and not increased wages for building workers, as his right hon. Friend said last week? Will he, therefore, give an assurance that the Government will see that interest rates are reduced, or that housing subsidies are increased, instead of continually calling on local authorities to ask tenants to pay higher rates in order to meet these interest charges?

My right hon. Friend would not give that assurance. The hon. Member knows Government policy on interest rates very well. Any help given to local authority housing should be provided openly in housing subsidies and should not be concealed by means of an artificially low interest rate. However, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that under the Public Works Loans Act, 1964, a local authority will be able to obtain a proportion of its long-term borrowing needs at the Government credit rate rather than the full open market rate.

We are only too well aware of Government policy on interest rates. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in 1963 Scottish local authorities paid no less than £10,500,000 more in interest than they would have paid if the rate had been the same as in 1951 when his party took office? Will he seriously consider whether housing subsidies in Scotland are adequate to meet the high interest rates which local authorities are called upon to pay?

The rate of local authority house building in Scotland is increasing. Construction was begun in 1963 on 25,261 local authority houses in Scotland, which shows a large increase.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will seek to amend the Protection of Animals Act, 1911, to bring within its ambit modern methods of livestock rearing.

This Act and the corresponding Scottish Act of 1912 are intended to ensure that animals are not ill-used no matter what method of rearing is followed, and my right hon. Friend is not satisfied that any amendment is necessary.

That is a very disappointing Answer. Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that thousands of people were horrified by the Press picture of the modern method of pig production in this country and that the revelations in Ruth Harrison's book astonished many people who were not aware of what was happening? While people are not opposed to modern methods of cattle or fowl production, they are appalled by the cruelty which is taking place. Will the hon. Gentleman look at the whole question again?

I know that many people feel grave misgivings on this subject, but I cannot accept the implication that intensive methods of rearing necessarily give rise to suffering. After all, those who adopt these systems must ensure that their animals are able to thrive. I speak with some experience and I assure the hon. Member that if animals thrive, as they do—and I must say that I often wonder how they do, but the fact remains that they do—it is difficult to assert that they are suffering cruelty.

Is there any evidence of cruelty as a result of these intensive rearing methods? In view of the general expression of public anxiety, would it not be advisable to have some form of impartial and authoritative inquiry?

There is no evidence of cruelty. There is ample opportunity for prosecution by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals if cruelty can be proved, but I think that there is no evidence of it. However, I will take note of what my hon. Friend has said about the possible need for an impartial inquiry.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that there is a shortage of teachers in Scotland and that there are many qualified married women teachers awaiting employment; if he will make a statement explaining this anomaly; and what plans he has to correct it.

My right hon. Friend is not aware that many qualified married women teachers are awaiting employment in Scotland, but I shall be glad to look into any cases of which the hon. and learned Member gives me details.

Is the hon. Lady aware that I am surprised by that Answer in view of the correspondence which I have received which indicates that this anomaly exists? Would she look carefully into the matter with a view to making the relevant conditions more practicable, or releasing married women teachers from other duties, or providing nursery classes for children, or providing part-time teaching, or any other way which would solve this anomaly?

Recruitment of married women into full-time teaching went up by 411 last year compared with 1962. But it is sometimes difficult to arrange for part-time teaching, and, of course, there are home difficulties for some of these married women.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish his estimate of the sums paid by farmers in rent to their landlords.

It is estimated that in 1962–63 £4·5 million was paid in rent by farmers in Scotland to their landlords.

Can the Minister give us some more recent statistics? Will he think of publishing in the OFFICIAL REPORT information about the income of landlords similar to that just issued about the incomes of farmers? Is he aware that many Scottish farmers allege that increases in rent are responsible for increases in milk prices, so that landlords are getting money out of the milk prices?

That goes a little beyond the Question. The hon. Member has spoken of the effect of rent on milk prices, but although rents have increased, they still form only a very small proportion of total farming costs, namely, only 5 per cent.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that for every farm which comes up for renting there are at least 100 applicants?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many farmers are likely to qualify for hill cattle subsidy, as a result of the introduction of the Winter Keep Scheme, who did not qualify before.

To receive hill cattle subsidy a farmer must keep eligible cattle on eligible land in accordance with the conditions laid down in the Scheme. I cannot estimate the number who will satisfy these conditions for the first time as a result of the review of eligibility that is at present being carried out, but it might be quite a considerable number.

When my hon. Friend says "a considerable number", how does that compare with the number who, according to a previous Answer, might lose the hill cattle subsidy under the review?

The great difficulty is that, strange as it may seem, certain farmers who might be entitled to the hill cattle subsidy have not applied for it. These might now start applying and this is what makes it difficult to give an accurate estimate, but I would certainly expect a good deal more than this number of about 50 to qualify in future for the first time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action the police are taking in Scotland to control the use and circulation of drinamyl and durophet pills, known respectively as purple hearts and black torpedoes.

The police investigate allegations of illegal sales of these drugs, and cases involving theft, forgery or alteration of prescription forms. The Government have announced their intention to introduce legislation as soon as possible to secure stricter control.

Has my noble Friend read the reports in the Scotsman of 10th March and the Scottish Daily Mail of yesterday about these pills? Is she aware of the deleterious effect of the pills and can she take administrative action to stop their circulation? Further, if any foreign persons are involved in their unlawful procurement and circulation, will she see that such persons are deported promptly?

In answer to that omnibus question, I have not read the articles in question, but my Department has warned doctors about the dangers of prescribing stimulating and tranquillising drugs unless they are fully satisfied that the patient requires them. They have also been reminded to keep the quantities to the minimum. My Department has also invited all local medical committees in Scotland to draw the attention of their colleagues to the dangers involved.

When is amending legislation to be introduced?

We hope when we are returned after the next election.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the fact that industrial development in the central Scottish belt has always tended to attract people from the Highland areas, what compensating industrial projects he proposes for the Highlands of Scotland to help in stabilising or increasing their population.

The promotion of a healthy economy in the Highlands, and other parts of Britain that are losing population, is a main aim of the Government's regional development policies. How best to apply these policies to the Highlands will be settled in the light of the study in which the Scottish Development Group is now engaged. Meanwhile I would remind the hon. Member of the steps taken to enable the pulp mill project at Fort William to go ahead, with an employment potential of 2,500 jobs, direct and indirect, throughout the Highlands.

Is not the Minister aware that, despite all that he has said, over the whole period of his Government's life the population of the Highlands has declined? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that his Government's policies have been too miserable to arrest that decline? Will he remember that when Glasgow was the great growth point there was a steady inflow of Highland people to the City, and that my division of Govan still bears witness to that fact? Will the hon. Gentleman note the words of the Principal of St. Andrews University, that the one great industrial project which the Government can now give the Highlands is a university, and will he emphasise that fact to his right hon. Friend?

I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that Central Scotland must have priority as it is the heart of the Scottish economy, but my right hon. Friend is fully aware of the implications of the plan for Central Scotland on other areas, such as the Highlands and the Borders, and that is the reason for the special studies which are taking place for those areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in the light of his decision not to proceed with the establishment of a Scottish Tourist Fund, he will reconsider his decision with regard to the special grant for Highland tourism.

No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend indicated to the hon. Member in reply to a supplementary question on 29th January last, the special grant was for a specific experimental purpose, which is now practically complete.

But the right hon. Gentleman had proposals to create a tourist fund. He has thrown this overboard, and there is nothing to put in its place. It is in those circumstances that I am asking the hon. Gentleman to ask his right hon. Friend at least to continue to provide this small sum of £15,000 for a further three or four years, which will help considerably in the Highland areas.

As regards a tourist fund, my right hon. Friend is prepared to consider any proposal which is generally acceptable to those engaged in the tourist industry. As regards the grant which is to be continued for only another year, the tourist industry in Scotland already receives assistance from the Government in other ways, for example, the £400,000 which it is estimated is used by the British Travel and Holidays Association on behalf of Scotland. The particular experiments for which the comparatively small sum of £15,000 was intended are now almost at an end.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many slum houses were demolished or closed in Scotland in the year 1963; what is his estimate of the total stock of pre-1880 houses in Scotland; and what percentage the first figure represents of the second.

A provisional figure of slum houses demolished or closed in 1963 is 11,400. The best estimate available of the stock of pre-1880 houses is of the order of 500,000. On that basis the percentage is approximately 2¼.

As most of the pre-1880 houses are either slums, near-slums, or at least lacking in modern amenities, is it not clear from those figures that the present slum clearance programme is completely inadequate? What are the Government doing to speed it up?

All the pre-1880 houses are not beyond hope. I am not trying to minimise the problem, and my right hon. Friend is giving every encouragement to the efforts of local authorities to tackle it by closure, demolition, repair, or improvement; but quite a number of the houses are capable of improvement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the annual average number of houses built in Scotland in each of the four-year periods, 1952 to 1955, 1956 to 1959, and 1960 to 1953.

The figures are 35,854, 30,950, and 27,700 respectively.

Do not the Government appreciate that those figures speak for themselves?

No, Sir. The reduction since 1955 has been due largely to the increasing emphasis which local authorities have been placing on redevelopment which is more difficult than building on open sites, which had previously been the case. These difficulties are being overcome. The big increase in housing starts during the past year will result in increases in completion, and there is every prospect of 34,000 new houses in 1964, and more in 1965.

In view of the figures which the hon. Gentleman has just given about the number of slum houses in Scotland—500,000 built before 1880—how can he justify or explain away this continued failure and decline of house building in Scotland?

I think the hon. Gentleman known that it is because the emphasis has been on development and slum clearance. I might add that the average figure for the comparable period 1948–51, which the hon. Gentleman has not mentioned, was considerably lower at 23,949.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total amount collected in National Health Service charges in the financial year 1962–63; what is the estimated amount for 1963–64; and what is the estimated annual cost of collecting.

Excluding charges by local health authorities the totals for Scotland are, £4,507,330 in 1962–63 and an estimated £4,730,000 in 1963–64. The cost of collection cannot be estimated readily, but it is very small indeed in relation to the sums collected.

But have the Government any plans to get rid of this iniquitous tax?

No, Sir The scale of the charges helps to contain the total net cost of the National Health Service, thus allowing scope for developing new and improved services which would not otherwise be provided. That, I presume, is what was intended when the first charges were established, some in practice and some in principle, between 1945 and 1950.

Has the hon. Gentleman read what happened in those years? Is it not the case that not a single penny was collected in charges in any shape or form?

I merely went as far as to say that the principle was then established.