asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will postpone the date of the introduction of the Certificate of Secondary Education until 1966.

Fourteen regional examining bodies have been established to conduct the examinations for the Certificate of Secondary Examination. I propose to leave the timing of its introduction to them. I understand that most expect to introduce the examination in 1965, but that a few are likely to wait until 1966.

I am much obliged to my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Is he aware that certain curriculum study groups are not likely to have completed their studies into the syllabuses of this examination in time for the examination to be held for the first time in 1965?

I believe that of the 14 boards eight expect to offer the examination in 1965, two are likely to wait until 1966, and the remainder have not yet made their decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware that there is research evidence to show that when standardised mental and performance tests are dropped from selection procedures for secondary education the chances of grammar school entry decline for the children of manual working-class parents; and if he will advise local education authorities to take this into account whim devising new systems for selection of children for secondary education.

I am advised that the evidence is small, and in any event its significance is not clear.

Would not the Secretary of State agree that the evidence in the Douglas Report recently seemed to be conclusive on this, and does it not tie up with the statistical evidence in both the Crowther and Robbins Reports to show that selection of a social nature takes place not only at 11 under the new procedures but already takes place with the 18-plus selection for universities?

I am advised that there was indeed an assertion in the Douglas Report, unsupported by evidence, but that the evidence collected by Dr. Douglas suggests that it is not social class, as is suggested in the Question, but parental encouragement irrespective of class which has the effect to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman has referred to parental encouragement. Is it not much more the appalling housing conditions in which so many of these boys and girls live which give them no opportunity to study at home?

I hope that that will be taken care of by my right hon. Friend's slum clearance programme.

Does not the Secretary of State agree that with all these doubts and difficulties it would be far better not to have any selection procedure required at all for the 11-plus?

That appears to me to be totally irrational.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether it is intended to transfer the Chelsea College of Science and Technology to another site; and what use will be made of the present buildings.

The question whether the Chelsea College of Science and Technology should move from its present site has not yet been settled. The Governors are convinced that the development of the College on the general lines recommended in the Robbins Report will not be possible, unless a new site is obtained, and they are at present exploring, in association with my right hon. and learned Friend's Department, the possibility of a move to an area outside London. If a move should be approved, the future use of the present buildings will be a matter for consideration by the Governors, the London County Council or its successors, and my right hon. and learned Friend's Department.

I appreciate the reasons why it may be necessary for this establishment, which I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree has a very high reputation, to be transferred elsewhere, but ought it not to have been obvious some time ago that this situation would arise? Is my right hon. Friend aware that a large number of artists' studios and houses had to be demolished and a very valuable building site lost to make room for the extension of the Chelsea College of Science and Technology? Is it not a plain fact that the future of this new building, which has not yet been completed, is already in doubt? Finally, will my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that the future of this building will not be hawked around Whitehall but that if possible some use for Chelsea will be found for it?

In regard to the future of the institution, informal talks have taken place between the College and Hertfordshire County Council about a possible site in that county. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend on his question about the existing buildings that there is no danger of them, as it were, being wasted, particularly in view of the great demand there is these days for new buildings for institutes of higher and further education.

When the Minister is considering the site in Hertfordshire will he remember that Chelsea has, I think, virtually no technological side while the Hatfield Regional College has an excellent technological side, which might provide a suitable possibility for the two merging, with Hatfield becoming the faculty of technology of the new university?

I have seen that suggestion and while obviously it would be inappropriate for me to comment on it now, I can assure the House that the hon. Gentleman's point is being fully borne in mind by all those concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will consult the Postmaster-General concerning the experience gained relevant to his department's work from the educational television experiment which the Independent Television Authority has authorised between Queen's University, Belfast, and Ulster Television; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend is in close touch with his right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General on questions of educational television, including this proposal for an experiment. As the Postmaster-General said on 19th February in answer to a Question on this subject from my hon. Friend, a comprehensive study is in hand, and this is bound to take a little time.

Does my right hon. Friend consider that educational television is worth developing? Does he consider that this particular experiment, which the I.T.A. is supporting financially, could be of value in obtaining further experience?

I am aware of the offer made by the I.T.A. to provide funds to meet the capital and operating costs of this experiment. I can only say that an examination of this proposal is going on by the working party of officials from all the interested Departments, and that working party is making this study into these and other proposals as fast as possible.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that we have had sufficient experience of this to know its great potentialities? Should he not be more positive about it and resist the lack of enthusiasm of the Postmaster-General and say that these experiments should be encouraged?

I am aware of the interest in this subject in all parts of the House, but there are a number of technical points which must have full examination.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will authorise the replacement of Christchurch School, Clifton, with a new building on the Royal Park site.

Yes. This project has been included in the Bristol authority's school building programme for 1965–66.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is the best news that we in Bristol have had this year? Will my hon. Friend convey the grateful thanks of my constituents to his right hon. Friend? Further, will he do all he can to continue to help the excellent work that this school has done in very difficult circumstances?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what schemes have been worked out to enable school playing fields and, where suitable, playgrounds and assembly halls, to be made available for the use of school children in the evening and at weekends.

My right hon. Friend does not collect this information, but it is generally recognised that the use of school premises out of school hours under suitable arrangements can provide valuable recreational facilities for school children and young people; the wear which playing fields can stand is, however, limited.

Are the Government taking seriously their responsibility for giving leadership end direction to local education authorities so that many school playgrounds and, where suitable, assembly halls, are made available? Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that many parents are now beginning to feel that keeping school playgrounds tidy is considered to be rather more important than keeping the youngsters safe?

I agree with the hon. Lady about the value of this dual use of such school facilities. The Department's development group has been studying the, design of school buildings and playing fields to facilitate their use out of normal hours, and suggestions will be made in our forthcoming building bulletin on this subject.

Will my hon. Friend seek the support of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science who is still, I think, the Minister for Sport? A good many school playing fields, although used in the mornings by the schools, are not used in the afternoons. Does not my hon. Friend agree that many of them could be utilised for the benefit of clubs in the neighbourhood, and could not my right hon. Friend bring some influence to bear on local education authorities in this respect?

My right hon. Friend is anxious that playing facilities shall be used to the maximum, but the fact is—and I know this, having looked into one or two cases—that there really is a limit to the use to which playing fields in particular can be put. There are many instances where a school makes the maximum use of its playing fields.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could not the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Education and Science say something for himself for a change?

During the last Session I had occasion to point out that rising to points of order which are not points of order is really a method of cheating one's fellow Members. I hope this practice will cease.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in congested areas where streets are now cluttered up with stationary motor cars there is great resentment that school playing grounds are locked at 4 o'clock and that children are not given an opportunity to use them? In view of the fact that, so far as the Government are concerned, there seems to be a change in the situation, will the Minister notify local authorities that he is prepared to agree that school playing grounds shall be used, with the provision of persons to look after them, until it gets dark, so that the children are not chased away by the police or by others who fear that their cars may be damaged by the children?

My right hon. Friend's permission is not required in the circumstances which the hon. Lady has described. It is first and foremost a matter for the local education authorities themselves. As I have said, my right hon. Friend is extremely anxious to see that the fullest use is made of such playing facilities.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether in the bulletin on primary school building which has been sent round to local authorities this question of dual use has been taken fully into account? If not, what value are we to place on his general good intentions in the matter?

As I have told the House, the development group has been studying the design of school facilities in order to ensure that a great deal of use can be made of them. Certainly much of this information was available when the primary school bulletin was issued, and it was included in that bulletin. We are anxious to devise new facilities which will stand up to still greater use.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many applications have been received by the Clearing House for Training College places; how many students have now been provisionally accepted by the training colleges; and how many places remain to be filled.

Up to 1st April just over 31,000 applicants had registered with the Clearing House. This figure takes no account of subsequent withdrawals, and will include applicants who are un- qualified or otherwise unsuitable for entry. By 1st March some 20,800 applicants had been offered places. It is too early to say how many students will finally be admitted, but the colleges estimate at present that the figure will be about 23,750.

In spite of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's qualification of the first figure do not the figures reveal that a considerable number of suitable candidates will not get places? Could he, for a change, offer us some hope that he will take emergency measures to deal with this year's crop of students who have not got places by the end of August?

It is early days to anticipate this year. Last year the final total figure was 31,500. About 6,400 candidates withdrew and 1,500 were either unqualified or unsuitable. Of the remaining 2,600, 290 were classified as acceptable and the remainder as borderline. The position this year is likely to be better.

Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that it is very ironic that whilst he is campaigning for a greater supply of recruits to the teaching profession, last year many who had two A-levels were turned away, and it is quite clear that already this year able recruits will not have places unless he takes emergency measures.

The hon. Gentleman should also stress that only two years ago the colleges admitted 17,250. This year, if the estimate is right, the figure will be 23,750, which shows a very remarkable increase.

Does not the Minister realise that many of those borderline candidates are suitable people for admission if they are encouraged properly and the proper arrangements are made? Will he do something about that?

My last answer shows that that is exactly what is happening. If one takes the expected figure of 27,500 entries by 1968, this year's estimate shows that we are making very good progress.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what new action he has taken recently to encourage married women teachers who left the teaching service on marriage to return to teaching.

A national publicity campaign is due to begin next Sunday, 12th April. Its aim will be to stimulate the return to the schools of qualified married women teachers, and to reinforce the vigorous local efforts already being made in many areas.

I do not expect to be asked to come to see the right hon. Gentleman, but will he discuss with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor the possibility of these teachers having their salaries separated from their husbands' salaries for tax purposes so that they can be taxed on their own individual incomes? A number of women are being deterred from coming back to teaching because the fact of the two salaries being taken together puts them into the higher taxation class.

In answer to the hon. Gentleman's first remark, I shall be pleased to see him at any time. In answer to the second part of his supplementary question, I remind the hon. Gentleman that, whatever the pros and cons of the Surtax reliefs which we debated three years ago, they certainly did a great deal to ease this problem.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether any negotiations have started on the other important matter about which married women are concerned, namely, the counting for superannuation purposes of part-time service?

That is another question, but I can tell the hon. Lady that we are still looking at it. As she knows, it presents considerable difficulties. It was raised when we discussed the quota last time, and it is a matter in our thoughts.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give the student success rate for the latest available year at each of the Scottish universities, respectively, showing separately the results for students in arts and social studies, pure science, and applied science.

No, Sir. The student success rate at universities in Great Britain as a whole is published in paragraph 81 of the quinquennial report University Development 1957–1962—Cmnd. 2267. With regard to figures for individual universities and faculties, these figures are supplied by the universities to the University Grants Committee on the understanding that they will go no further than the Committee itself, and my right hon. Friend does not consider it would be right to ask the Committee to depart from this undertaking.

Does not the Minister agree that without such information it is impossible to tell whether any particular university is doing its job or whether it is falling down on its responsibilities to the nation? Is there not something reprehensible in that the individual university figures are carefully hidden from hon. Members and the public? Will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that we are given this type of information, without which we cannot decide whether or not a university is doing its job?

With great respect to the hon. Member, that form of supplementary question emphasises the difficulties here Universities are autonomous institutions. Figures of student successes for individual universities would be liable to misinterpretation and misleading comparison and would not be a suitable subject for controversial supplementary questions and answers in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I must ask the House to recognise that we must bear in mind the special position of the universities in our system.

Is not that an extraordinary doctrine? Does the right hon. Gentleman really tell us that these apparently vital statistics are available but are being denied the students who are trying to make up their minds where they should go? Should not such students be allowed to have these statistics? Why should these figures be held back by deliberate intent?

It would be easy for misinterpretation and misleading comparison to be made through the detailed production of these statistics.

But there are many truths which can be misinterpreted. Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that one cannot suppress the truth merely because it may be misinterpreted?

We must bear in mind, as I have said, the fact that universities are autonomous institutions. My right hon. Friend does not believe—though he will take into account what has been said in the House—that it would be right to ask the Committee to change its policy on this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many students successfully completed science degree courses at United Kingdom universities in 1951, 1961 and 1963.

The number of first degrees in pure and applied science obtained by internal students at universities in Great Britain were as follows: 1951, 6,252; 1961, 9,300; 1963, 9,958.

Would my right hon. Friend agree, in the light of those figures, that the increasing additions in the number of qualified scientists to the total number in the country in recent years has given a flying send-off to the massive new programme of expansion on which we are now embarking?

One must bear in mind, when considering these figures of the output of qualified scientists and technologists, the number of students who obtain external degrees and diplomas in technology and the number of other professional qualifications.

Do not the figures mask the trend of more and more students taking pure science while the proportion of technological students has remained constant? What steps is the Minister taking to correct this undesirable tendency.

When considering the technological figures, one should look at the 1956 White Paper, where it is shown that we sought 207,000 over eight years. It will be seen, from the present figure of 312,000, that we have more than exceeded the 1956 target.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say in what way these figures can be misinterpreted?

There is no reason for anyone to wish to misinterpret them, because they show that the targets laid down in the Government's White Paper of 1956 have been more than exceeded for scientists, technologists and technical teachers.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he proposes to set up a separate University Grants Committee for Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has for the reconstruction of the University Grants Committee to allow for co-ordination of policies with regard to universities in Scotland.

No, Sir. A separate University Grants Committee for Scotland would be in accord neither with the recommendations of the Report of the Committee on Higher Education nor with the wishes of the Scottish Universities themselves. My right hon. Friend is confident that the University Grants Committee will be no less effective than hitherto in its co-ordination of policies with regard to universities in Scotland.

Whilst accepting the probable necessity for a single University Grants Committee, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that quite a number of people feel that in Scotland the Committee ought to be responsible to the Secretary of State and that this is necessary if we are to have the fullest co-ordination of educational services in Scotland?

I can assure the hon. Member that the Scottish universities themselves, through their principals, have made it quite clear that they would be very concerned about any arrangement which involved their being dealt with separately by a method different from that which applies to universities in England and Wales. The hon. Member will be aware that members of the University Grants Committee are appointed only after the fullest consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Since the unity of the educational structure under one Minister has been accepted for England and Wales, are there not similarly valid arguments for having that unity in Scotland? How will the Secretary of State for Scotland, who will be responsible for primary and secondary education and teacher training colleges, be brought into discussions about universities in Scotland?

With respect, I do not believe that the Scottish universities would feel it a step forward towards greater unity that they should be dealt with separately from universities in England and Wales. All that has happened is that Ministerial responsibility for the University Grants Committee, which used to lie with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and was with my right hon. Friend until this month, now rests with the Secretary of State for Education and Science. We have not, therefore, created a new division which was not there before.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman realises that a change has been made and duties have been given to the Secretary of State for Education and Science for reasons which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) has mentioned, because we must retain unity and continuity in education? If that is obtained by means of this change in England and Wales, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that we do not get it in Scotland? Will the right hon. Gentleman think about this matter again and bear in mind, with reference to the original Answer, that the Government themselves did not accept the recommendation of the Robbins Committee in relation to Scotland?

I assure the hon. Member that there is no difference in the relationship between the Scottish universities and the successor Department to the Treasury. On this matter we must bear in mind what has been said to us, through the principals, by the Scottish universities.

They have given us wrong advice all along.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what arrangements he has made to ensure that the pattern of university expansion in Scotland meets the special requirements of Scottish education.

My right hon. Friend is confident that the University Grants Committee and the Scottish universities will continue to take full account of the needs of Scottish education in making their plans for expansion.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that Answer to be extremely vague even for his Department? Can he give us specific figures, and in particular an assurance that the emergency programme which the Robbins Report recommended will be amply carried out and in good time?

There is a later Question on the Order Paper about the figures, but on the urgency of the matter a special sub-committee of the U.G.C. will be visiting Scotland in the course of this month or next to discuss and consider approved alternative sites for the creation of a new Scottish university.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, what plans he has for meeting the short-term emergency in university education in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, what is the present number of students in universities in Scotland; and what he estimates the figure will be in 1965, 1967, and 1969, respectively.

The University Grants Committee estimate that the number of full-time students in the present Scottish universities and the Royal College of Science and Technology in Glasgow will be 28,000 to 28,500 in the academic year 1967–68, compared with 20,400 in October, 1963.

Is the Minister satisfied that those who possess a certificate of fitness issued by the University Entrance Board in Scotland will get a place next October?

The figures which I have quoted are designed to meet the rate of demand for places by home students as estimated by the Robbins Committee.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many applications have been received by the Universities' Clearing House; how many students have now been provisionally accepted by the universities; and how many places remain to be filled.

The chairman of the Universities Central Council on Admissions has sent me a statement which gives the information available on the points raised by the hon. Member. With permission, I will circulate this statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Do not those figures reveal that there is still a considerable shortage of university places? Does the Minister propose to do anything about emergency arrangements in the universities for this year's crop of students?

What the hon. Gentleman says is manifestly true in the light of the Robbins Report, and our acceptance of the Robbins target shows that we are treating the matter extremely urgently.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that it is now reliably estimated that, last year, there were 16,000 fully qualified candidates who failed to get entrance to university? Does not he accept this as a grave indictment of the Government's failure in university policy? Further, is he aware that, notwithstanding that, at the end of last year it was discovered that there were 1,000 vacancies unfilled? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that, this year, the machinery is improved to prevent that happening again?

I do not think that the 1,000 vacancies unfilled, if they were in truth genuine vacancies, are any evidence of the failure of this particular machinery. The fact that in one faculty there were potential vacancies unfilled does not assist in other faculties which are over subscribed. One must not assume that a potential place in one faculty can necessarily be filled by a candidate for another faculty. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has taken this consideration into account at all.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what research has been conducted, or is being conducted, by the Meat Research Institute into the nutritional value of the food produced at factory farms.

Some work has been done at the Low Temperature Research Station and elsewhere on the meat quality of broiler chickens. Little difference could be detected between the meat of these birds and that of poultry produced under other systems. The general subject of research into meat quality will be within the scope of two institutes, the Food Research Institute and the Meat Research Institute, which are now being established.

The Question is not concerned merely with birds but with all animals which are reared on factory farms. Is the Minister aware that to compensate for the unnatural conditions in which these animals are reared they are given, at appropriate times, estrogens, antibiotics, tranquillisers and a little arsenic? Have his researches shown whether or not unassimilated residues of these drugs are in the flesh of the animals before they are killed? Is he certain that when that flesh appears on the table to be consumed by human beings it does not contain these drugs?

I cannot answer in detail the point the hon. Member raises about arsenic. The Ministry of Agriculture has made some comparisons between broiler and roasting chickens produced on free range and has found that there is no significant difference from the point of view of nutrition. Likewise, the Low Temperature Research Station is studying the shell strength of eggs and has so far found that battery produced eggs have shells no weaker than those produced in other conditions.

Is any progress being made in the production of proteins from vegetable matter, which is one of the experiments being carried out and which has a bearing on this Question?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a Question on that topic.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in America the factory farm is proportionately much more used than in this country as a source of food supply? Is he also aware that in America more school children die from cancer than from any other disease? Has he thought of trying to discover, through his research department, whether the growth of cancer in this country is in any way related to the growth of the factory farm?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that there is no known connection between these facts.

Does not the inability of the right hon. Gentleman to reply to these question show ridiculous it is to saddle him with these diverse responsibilities?

asked the Secretary of state for Education and Science how many science graduates entered this country to take up employment during each of the years 1961, 1962 and 1963; and how many of these came from the North America continent.

I regret there is no comprehensive information. The number of scientists recruited from North America as a result of the work of the Joint Interviewing Board acting on behalf of the Civil Service Commission, the Atomic Energy Authority and the Central Electricity Generating Board, and for the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research as regards D.S.I.R. Fellowships is as follows: 1961, 50; 1962, 68; 1963, 32.

Yes, but would my right hon. Friend concede that the estimated influx of experienced scientists into this country has reduced proportionately to a mere trickle through the overflow pipe the net outflow of those who are beguiled by Yankee blandishments and the almighty dollar?

The figures that I gave do not include private arrangements made by industrial concerns. Secondly, my hon. Friend will, I am sure, wish to bear in mind what my right hon. Friend said in the debate on 24th February and in his statement on the recommendations of the National Incomes Commission on the remuneration of academic staffs at universities.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received from universities and other interested persons in support of the establishment of the proposed World Health Research Centre in the United Kingdom.

My right hon. Friend has received one letter, from a university professor; the reply contained substantially the information given by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal in answer to the Question from the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) on 19th March. He also has received a copy of correspondence on the subject between the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson) and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the fact that this World Health Research Centre might attract a great number of scientists from abroad and help to correct the balance of scientific outflow and inflow which we have been talking about? Will the right hon. Gentleman take an active interest in this matter, in view of the contradiction of policy expressed between the Secretary of State for Scotland on the one hand, who favours the project, and the Minister of Health on the other, who, to say the least, is unsympathetic?

We have taken an active interest in this matter. There are other Questions on the Order Paper on the subject. The representations received by the Government do not suggest that there is widespread and general support among the scientific community for an establishment of this nature in its present form.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he now has for a United Kingdom contribution to the World Health Research Centre proposed at the recent World Health Organisation Conference.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further research is now being undertaken in the United Kingdom on the desirability of establishing a World Research Centre of the kind proposed at the recent World Health Organisation Conference.

I believe that further study of these proposals would best be undertaken after it is known whether the member countries of the World Health Organisation are likely to agree to establish a World Health Research Centre, and what form any such centre is likely to take.

In view of the fact that that is not likely to be for another 12 months, is not this rather unsatisfactory? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a much wider feeling than he thinks that the Government are dragging their feet about this matter and that there is no unanimity in the Government about it? Is he aware that what we would like to see is some positive action and the Government coming forward with proposals to place this new research organisation in Great Britain?

The hon. Member is quite misinformed about the matter. There has been no dragging of feet. We have taken the advice of the A.C.S.P. and these proposals have been referred back to the Director-General of the W.H.O. for further consideration. There were certain aspects of the original ideas which we were ready to support, but the plans for large laboratories for medical research did not seem to us to be the best means of scientific advance.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake further and deeper research and establish some positive criteria, assuming that we are willing to house a voluntary world health centre in the United Kingdom so that we can take part in the international infrastructure of the United Nations?

I think that we should await the result of this reference back first, but I assure the hon. Member that there is no question of the Government dragging their feet.

As for the Government dragging their feet, is it not a fact that on the original proposition the Government's representative was the only representative who gave a flat negative in opposition from the beginning? Is it not worth considering whether we should not do for a molecular laboratory what C.E.R.N. has done for nuclear physics by international co-operation, and should we not consider whether we might take an active rôle in assisting other people to make up their minds about this?

In answer to the last part of the supplementary question, the success of the international research laboratory for high energy physics in C.E.R.N., for example, is not an argument for similar research facilities for subjects which do not require equipment of the same degree of high cost. There is no precise parallel here. The original Answer shows that we did not present a flat negative to the scheme, and clearly it is right that the Government should take advice from their duly constituted advisers on the subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consultations he has had with the Medical Research Council on the proposal for a World Health Organisation Research Centre.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what scientific advice he is now seeking on the proposal to establish a World Health Research Centre.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further scientific advice he has now received on the proposal made at the recent World Health Organisation Conference to establish a World Health Research Centre.

My right hon. Friend received advice on these proposals from the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy before the World Health Assembly met last month. The Medical Research Council also offered its advice. There is no cause to seek further advice until we have the result of the further study being undertaken by the Director-General of the World Health Organisation.

Is it not a fact that the proposal put forward by the Director-General of the World Health Organisation was the result of the work of an advisory committee of 30 persons, including a number of Britons, with two Nobel prizewinners among them? Could not the Minister at least take the advice of these British members of the Director-General's working party? There is certainly a division of scientific opinion in this country on this matter.

I assure hon. Members that we will take all relevant advice into account, but we must bear in mind in particular the advice that we have had from the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy and the Medical Research Council.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the very fact that there has been so much evidence of widespread disagreement among scientists indicates that advice from others is at least something to be looked at? Will he not see that something is done urgently in this matter?

The hon. Gentleman may genuinely be exaggerating the difference among scientists on this matter as compared with other members of the public. The Medical Research Council expressed its opinion on proposals which were based on the findings of a conference of independent scientists.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make available to us the advice that he has been given by the various scientists whom he has so far consulted?

My right hon. Friend is certainly looking into the possibility of publishing a full statement of the advice that we have received from the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the estimated cost of providing facilities at the new Food Research Institute at Norwich for a continuation and enlargement of the research programme on post-harvest problems, at present carried out at the Ditton Laboratory, and of ensuring that the new accommodation at Norwich provides for the standard of tolerance for high humidity constant ten perature at present achieved at Ditton.

It is not possible to give any estimate at this stage of the cost involved in providing particular facilities at the new Institute. It is intended that the work on post-harvest problems, including those of storage and transport, should be continued and enlarged, and adequate facilities will be provided for this purpose.

Will the right hon. Gentleman define what he means by "adequate"? Can he guarantee that the degree of control in high humidity temperature work will be as effective in the new accommodation as it is at present? This is a matter of considerable concern.

I know that this is a matter of concern. If the hon. Lady would care to come to see me, I will discuss it with her. The Agricultural Research Council is thinking in terms of expanding and not reducing the scope of the food research programme as a whole, including research on post-harvest problems, and I repeat my remark that all necessary facilities will be provided at this new station.