asked the Minister 2. of Aviation if he will ensure that no restrictions are put on international services using Prestwick Airport.

In providing air services at Prestwick or indeed other United Kingdom airports British operators must conform with their air service licences. Foreign airlines must also conform with the appropriate inter-Governmental Air Services Agreements. These things necessarily involve some restrictions.

Is the right hon.. Gentleman aware that this incident has caused widespread concern in Scotland, not only because it is desirable for Scotland to have these international air services but because of its wider implications? Is he further aware that there is a feeling that there is a tendency to expect everybody to come to London if they want to travel on international airways? Can he repudiate this and also say whether B.O.A.C. intends to increase its services from prestwick?

I am grateful to the right hon.. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to say that there is no question of our trying to move passengers from Scotland to London for inter-continental journeys. I understand from Sir Giles Guthrie that B.O.A.C. will be running some 12 services a week to the United States and Canada from Prestwick.

Is my right hon.. Friend satisfied is two points? The first is that, as a result of this reduction, Prestwick will not suffer, and secondly, that Scandinavian Air Services will be able to maintain sufficient traffic to justify continuing the service through Prestwick.

It is my impression that S.A.S. will continue to operate at its present frequency on the Scottish—European rector. Any loss to Prestwick could only be through landing fees, and this is a very small consideration.

As consideration is being given to the development of Stansted as a third international airport for London, will the right hon.. Gentleman consider whether or not Prestwick could play some part in this new development?

The recommendation that Stansted should form the third London airport takes full account of the likely development at Prestwick. Which we think will be considerable.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is supporting research to investigate the possibilities of eliminating the boom from supersonic flight.

I am supporting research into ways of keeping this noise to a minimum but no method of eliminating it entirely can be foreseen.

Is the hon.. Gentleman quite happy about the prospects of being awakened by the boom in the middle of the night? Many of us are extremely keen to see supersonic flight developments but would nevertheless like to be Sure that greater effort is being put into the problem of the supersonic boom than seems to be the case at present.

The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is, "Not really". As regards the second part, the designers of the Concord are well aware of the need to keep the boom within tolerable limits and are doing all they can. The Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough is carrying out a lot of research into such things as the supersonic boom.

Is my hon.. Friend aware that extensive tests are being carried out in the United States on this problem? Is there any arrangement to exchange information between the two countries in order to get the benefit of these researches?

We are aware of the tests being carried out in Oklahoma City on behalf of the United States Government. These will be of great interest to us and we will be in touch over the sharing of information.

Is the hon.. Gentleman aware that this is a point on which there is likely to be extremely strong public reaction once the problem is appreciated and experience begins to be widespread? It would be extremely unfortunate if the aircraft industry's development were to be frustrated by public reaction which had not been fully anticipated in the early stages.

We are going into the question of public reaction and tests on the subjective effects of the supersonic boom are being carried out at Aberporth and at Cambridge University.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will seek to acquire Shobdon aerodrome in order to keep it open for civil flying.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will initiate immediate discussions with the Secretary of State for Defence with the object of keeping Shobdon aerodrome open for civil flying.

It is not the Government's policy to acquire and operate new aerodromes for civil flying. Sale Of part of this airfield to the former owners has been arranged by the Ministry of Defence and the remainder is to be auctioned on 17th April. It will be for the new owners and the local planning authority to decide whether flying can be permitted and the entry in the "Air Pilot" will have to accord with their decision.

Is my hon.. Friend aware that several air charter companies, including Tacair, have been approached by industrial concerns in Herefordshire to ask whether they will expand their services to Shobdon aerodrome? Even at this late hour is there nothing else that he can do? I am confident that, within five years, this aerodrome will be greatly needed for increased civil flying.

I am aware of the facts mentioned by my hon.. Friend but it is up to the local authorities or the air club to acquire the airfield. As I have said, it is not our policy to acquire and operate these aerodromes for civil flying. Perhaps my hon.. Friend will use his good offices to urge the local authorities to purchase the airfield. I think that would be the answer.

My hon.. Friend did not say in his reply whether he had had discussions with the Air Ministry, as I asked him in my Question. Could he answer me on that point now? Will he please note also that this aerodrome is a considerable centre for gliding, flying and parachuting? Is he further aware that there is a lot of anxiety that this land will be taken over and used for industry or agriculture, which is not a very popular idea in some quarters?

Order I think that the hon.. Gentleman had better proceed More normally. It would be good thing if his supplementary question came to an end.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. I should like, in conclusion, to ask my hon.. Friend whether he will have an inquiry and discussions with the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development to find out whether this aerodrome has some part to play in the industrial and general economic set-up of the area.

The answer to the first part of that question is "Yes" and the answer to the second part is that these are just the sort of factors that the local authorities should be taking into account and which, I would have thought, would have stimulated them into bidding for the airfield.

asked the Minister of Aviation if permission was sought by or given to Sir William Strath, who was Permanent Secretary of his Department in 1959–60, to become chair-man of British Aluminium Limited and joint managing director of Tube Investments Ltd. within a few months of leaving the Ministry.

Sir William Strath sought permission to take an appointments with the British Aluminium Co. Ltd., and Tube Investments Ltd. This was given in November, 1960.

While certainly not suggesting that there was anything corrupt in this case, may I ask whether the right hon.. Gentleman does not think it highly undesirable that so many senior civil servants are leaving for firms which are contractors for the Government? Secondly, since Sir William held the top post at the time of the extraordinary Ferranti affair, will he be giving evidence to the Lang inquiry?

On the last point, I do not know whether Sir John Lang has called Sir William Strath: I shall certainly look into that and let the hon.. Gentleman know. I do not think it in the least undesirable that senior civil servants should go to industry, and I am ail for encouraging, as much as one can, the two-way traffic between industry and the Civil Service. There is the example of Sir Arnold Hall, the present head of Hawker Siddeley and a former director of the R.A.E. at Farnborough. I am very anxious to see as much inter-change as possible between industry and the Government in these matters, because I think that the dangers of corruption are very small and the advantages of cross-fertilisation very great.

There is a point in what my hon.. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) has said. Where we have an ex-Permanent Secretary going to a firm which is still working on contracts obtained during the period of his secretary ship, then, no matter what we may think here, it gives scope for all kinds of conjecture outside.

I take the point. I think that it is very important equally that a man's knowledge built up at the taxpayer's expense over years on a particular speciality such as aviation should not be loft to the aviation industry or the electronics industry as a whole.

Can the Minister say, when he talks about movements both ways, what person from industry has recently taken a top Civil Service job of a similar nature?

Sir Arnold Hall has been across the board. He was a director of the R.A.E. and he is now on the beard of Hawker Siddeley. We have many times in our history, particularly in war time, brought people from industry into the Government. I wish that we could find a way of doing this rather more. One of the things that I am trying to do in developments like the Chequers conference and the electronic; conference at Lancaster House is to try to get the experience of industry to bear more closely on Government problems. Another case is the Exports Council which S.B.A.C. has formed, I where both industry and the Civil Service are associated together. I want to foster this if I can.

asked the Minister of Aviation why cost-plus con-tracts were undertaken for the three missiles Sea slug, Thunderbird and Fire-streak, which were originally estimated To cost £8 millions and which were later estimated in the Auditor-General's report to have cost £110 millions, which resulted in the taxpayer bearing the extra cost, whereas a fixed-price contract was agreed on for the Bloodhound contract which gave Ferranti's a £4 millions profit.

The contracts for the development of the Bloodhound missile were on the same basis as those for the development of the Seaslug, Thunderbird and Firestreak missiles, namely cost plus.

Has not the result been that where there has been a colossal loss the taxpayers have had to bear it, but where there has been an excessive profit it has gone to the firm, so the public never get the benefit—they always lose?

I think that the hon. Gentleman should specify his charge if he is going to pursue it. I had the impression that his Question was put down on the misunderstanding that the contracts were placed differently for the Bloodhound than for the other three missiles. In fact, the contracts for the development of the Bloodhound were exactly on the same basis as those for the other three, and for the production exactly the same applies.

Can the right hon.. Gentleman say whether the figures mentioned in the Question are correct on the disparity between the original estimate and the actual cost?

I would not wish to mislead the right hon.. Gentleman. I should like to look into that more carefully I was under the impression that the Question was entirely misconceived and the assumptions false and that I tried to correct by explaining that the contracts were on the same basis and not on different bases. I would not wish to mislead the right hon.. Gentleman I will look into the question of individual figures and let him know. But they appear to be quotations from reputed sources.

Is not the important question here that there should be no question of excessive profits on the part of the Bloodhound if proper precautions and proper alertness had taken place in the Ministry of Aviation?

As the hon.. Gentleman knows, Sir John Lang is conducting an inquiry, and I am naturally looking Departmentally at the problem myself to see whether any changes are required in our organisation. I should not wish to anticipate the outcome of these inquiries, but there will, no doubt, be an opportunity to discuss them.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are, of course, cases when firms take on fixed-price contracts and lose money? To overcome these great problems between the Government and industry, will he see if he cannot get closer to industry by attaching an accountant to each firm as liaison, so that there is a closer working arrangement with the firms and his Ministry? In this way many of the problems would be obviated and he would be kept closely informed of the progress, or lack of progress, being made financially.

I accept the spirit of the suggestion, and I shall do everything I can to keep in the closest possible touch with industry. Where fixed price contracts are concerned, that is a negotiating process and it is difficult to insure against miscalculation. I hope that Sir John Lang's inquiry and my own investigations at the moment may yield some fruit.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will change the conditions of contracting between his Department and private firms to ensure that the outturn of each contract, and access to the relevant books of the firm, are available to his Department.

Such a condition is already included in contracts when the price is determined on actual cost.

Would the right hon.. Gentleman agree that it is not a lot of use to condemn any firm which makes what we are pleased to call excessive profits unless we do all we can to prevent such things from happening? While he is issuing contracts, instead of merely confining himself to insisting upon the right to have a look at the factory while the thing is going through, why does he not also insist on the right to seethe outturn of any individual contract, so that at that stage he can ensure that this kind of excessive profit cannot be made?

I do not think that the hon.. Gentleman quite understood my Answer. Where contracts are priced on the basis of actual costs, this is what we do. There are two other methods, one the single-tender contract and the other competitive tender. When there is competitive tendering, what we try to do is to give the firm an opportunity to get a good profit by proving to be more efficient than other competitors who have tendered. In this case it would be inappropriate to try to check after the event. This proposition is quite different from a price fixed non-competitively. The hon.. Member's question arises where a single contractor is concerned, that is to say, when only one firm is allowed to tender because we are convinced that it is the only one appropriate; or where the prices are fixed after development has actually begun, or production has actually begun, which happens in certain cases I am now inquiring very closely into these price-fixing arrangements.

The right hon.. Gentleman will agree that in his Report the Comptroller and Auditor General speaks of 18 contracts put out to competitive tender when in each case only one firm tendered. In other words, the whole object which the right hon.. Gentleman has in mind is altogether vitiated by what is undoubtedly an agreement that only one firm should tender for the contract. This means that there is no competitive: tendering, so that the right hon.. Gentleman's whole object cannot be achieved while that kind of thing goes on.

I was trying to say that where there is only one tender, if there is a single tender, then there is a problem. The hon.. Gentleman's question applies to single-tender contracts, as in the Ferranti case placed on the basis of what is called "price to be agreed". I am looking into these arrangements and I should not like to anticipate the outcome of my inquiries or those of Sir John Lang.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the number of fatal accidents on scheduled and non-scheduled air services in the first quarter of 1964 with the comparable figures for 1962 and 1963; and how many British passengers and aircraft were involved in each case.

Figures for world-wide accidents are published by the International Civil Aviation Organisation but these do not yet extend beyond 1961. I will with permission circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the relevant information for British-registered aircraft.

Is it not the case that in the first three months of this year 16 civil aircraft were destroyed with a loss of 360 passengers? Has the hon.. Gentle-man no information about these figures, which have: been published? If they are correct, are they disturbing him as seriously as they disturb all those who are interested in the progress of civil aviation? Is there any committee within the International Civil Aviation Organisation which inquires into these things from the point of view of the control system in airfields outside Great Britain?

In the International Civil Aviation Organisation there is a group of people compiling these figures, but I would be very reluctant to agree here and now to figures compiled by other sources which I could not necessarily accept as reliable.

In view of the seriousness of the subject, would it not be more Desirable for the Ministry to have figures much more up-to-date than any which we have heard so far?

If the hon.. Gentleman reads the Answer which will be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find that the figures give the answer and are very up to date.

As the figures have been published by a responsible periodical, the current issue of The Aeroplane, would the hon.. Gentleman inquire into their veracity and write to me when he has done so?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Aviation what studies are being undertaken into the feasibility of terrain avoidance systems, with a view to reducing accidents involving civil transport aircraft.

Terrain avoidance equipment is being developed for military use and the possibility of civil application will be kept under review.

Does not the hon.. Gentle-man worry about the fact that at the present stage of aviation development west ill cannot always fly over a hill in safety? Can he say what part the computer is playing in reducing the danger Presented by high ground? Can he tell me why these safety devices can be built into military aircraft, such as the TSR2which has to fly at low levels, and yet not into civil aircraft?

The answer to the first question is that the best safeguards against collisions with high ground are good crew training, good crew discipline and procedures, and good navigational approach aids on the ground and in the aircraft. The equipments in the TSR2and so on are for terrain following and not precisely for terrain avoidance, which is of a lesser category. This is an entirely new art and we are early on in its development. That is why I said that we would keep it under review and that if we could apply it in the interests of the safety of civil aircraft, we would do so.

asked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of the air traffic from the United States to the Bahamas and Bermuda, respectively, is carried by British airlines.

In the last 12-month period for which figures are available, British airlines carried 31 per cent. of the air passenger traffic between the United States and Bermuda and 48 per cent. of that between the United States and the Bahamas.

Is it not rather unsatisfactory that we should have such a comparatively small part of this lucrative, rich tourist trade? Has not the Minister been somewhat remiss about negotiating these traffic rights, particularly in the Bahamas?

On the contrary, I would have thought that it was remarkable that we should be able to carry this amount of traffic from the United States to the two Caribbean terminal points, considering the advantages which the United States would normally derive from having initiated a great part of the traffic.

Does not the Minister negotiate these matters on a quid pro quo basis, as he does traffic rights with other countries? Why should we not have an equal share of the traffic rights with the United States?

We have done our best to secure the greatest possible share, and a large part of the traffic goes from this side of the Atlantic as well. However, a large part goes from the United States and it is very much to the credit of British operators that they have been able to carry so many American passengers to the Caribbean Islands.

While endorsing everything that my right hon.. Friend has said, may I ask whether he does not think that more publicity could be given to the fact that on direct flights from this country to the Bahamas and to Bermuda no less than 25 per cent. can be saved if a British airline is used, a fact which is not sufficiently well known?

I hope that my hon.. Friend's question will be seized on, because he is quite right.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will publish the statistics available to him regarding the proportion of traffic carried by the British Overseas Airways Corporation-Cunard since it was formed in June, 1962, in comparison with that carried by other airlines operating on the same routes.

We have complete knowledge only of the traffic on these routes entering or leaving the United Kingdom Of this B.O.A.C.-Cunard has carried 44per cent. since June, 1962.

May I ask the right hon.. Gentleman whether it is not the case that the B.O.A.C.-Cunard airline has done rather less favourably than its competitors on these routes? Is it not also the case that the B.O.A.C.-Cunard airline has been allowed to operate these routes only by surrendering valuable traffic rights to the Americans? Is my right hon.. Friend still satisfied that the merger has been justified by results so far?

The hon.. Gentleman began by asking whether it was not the fact that the B.O.A.C.-Cunard airline has done less well than its competitors. If it has carried 44 per cent. of the total traffic as against all competitors, I do not think that that is bad. The airline is competing against many foreign operators including those on its South American route, and I do not think that the result is a bad one at all. It looks as though the financial results have been considerably improved, and I think that that is due in no small measure to the co-operation of the two great British transport undertakings involved.

Nobody is saying that it is a bad result. Is it not a proportionately less satisfactory increase than the increase achieved by other airlines?

I would not have said so on the figures available to me. I am surprised that the hon.. Gentleman says so, because I thought that the complaint from the party opposite was that the B.O.A.C.-Cunard airline was creaming off the traffic. It has not been quite that way, but I do not think that this doing badly.

asked the Secretary State for Defence whether he will now announce measures to give a longer-term stability to Gurkha recruiting, both with regard to the policy of the recruitment of Gurkha ranks and of British officers for Gurkha regiments.

No, Sir. I do not think it is necessary to go beyond the announcement by my right hon.. Friend the then Minister of Defence on 20th November, 1963.

Does my right hon.. Friend realise that I find that reply very unsatisfactory? I was informed only the other day that the main stumbling block to the regular supply of British officers for the Gurkha Brigade was uncertainty with regard to recruiting, and that must be the same to a certain extent with regard to other ranks.

The present position is that we are able to recruit all the Gurkhas that we need. The Brigade is at present receiving its normal allocation of British officers from the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. I am sorry if there should be any uncertainty, but I think that the present position is clear. There will be no rundown for the time being. I think that it would be wrong to try to anticipate what might happening the light of changes which might be made a long way ahead in the future.

Would not my right hon.. Friend agree that if a cut in British Army recruiting was announced, and then was not rescinded but only temporarily postponed, it would not have a very good effect on British recruiting? Gurkha recruiting is exactly the same.

Is it not the case that India is recruiting twice as many Gurkhas as we are? Can the Minister assure the House that he has not closed his mind to the possibility of making longer-term arrangements than those he has announced to the House?

This decision, and the suspension of the decision, has not caused any recruiting problem. Certainly it would be open to us to take any decision such as the hon.. Gentleman has suggested might be necessary in the light of changed circumstances, but I think that it would be unwise to start giving undertakings or answering hypothetical questions when we do not know what the circumstances may be.

That is not good enough. Not long ago we were being told that there should be more encouragement to recruit for the Gurkhas. A little later my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth), myself, and others, were being told that there was to be a rundown. Still later we were told that it was to be suspended and there was not to be a rundown. Does my right hon.. Friend realise that there is considerable competition for these troops, unfortunately not only from friends but from enemies as well, and that there is a great deal in the suggestion that some more permanent arrangement should be announced?

We do not expect any difficulty in recruiting all the Gurkhas we need. We aim to recruit 600 this year, including 50 boys.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence when he will announce the result of his consultations with the local planning authority about the disposal of the site of the Royal Ordnance Factory, Swynnerton.

I have asked the county council for an early answer and I will announce the result of our consultations as soon as I am able to do so.

May I ask the hon.. Gentleman whether he is aware that all those acquainted with the problem remain disgusted with the long delay—it is now nearly seven years since the factory was closed—in dealing with it? Is the hon.. Gentleman also aware that hope springs eternal in Staffordshire, especially as a result of the great Labour victory there last week? As he now has a better planning authority with which to deal, we hope that he will be able to make a statement at an early date.

Hope springs eternal in the Ministry of Defence as well, and I think that we are making some progress.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what representations he has received from Territorial Army Associations about the levying of Income Tax on Territorial Army pay several years in arrears; and if he will consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the alleviation of cases of hardship and the devising of a more equitable system of levying tax from Territorial Army soldiers.

None, but if the hon.. Gentleman will let me have details of the cases about which he wrote to me in general terms on 5th April, I will look into them with my right hon.. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Has the right hon.. Gentleman had previous complaints of this character? Is he aware that some Territorial Army units at the moment are extremely disturbed because their members are receiving tax demands as much as five or even seven years in arrears? It seems that the system is extraordinarily inefficient, and is bound to create hardship. I will certainly supply the right hon.. Gentleman with details. Will he investigate the matter carefully with the Treasury?

Until 1957 it was left entirely to the individual to assess and declare his Territorial Army pay on his annual tax return. If this were not done by any individual—as might happen, perhaps, in civilian life in some cases—the Inland Revenue is within its right sin submitting demands. But since 1958 Army paymasters have helped individuals by informing them of their total taxable Territorial Army emoluments, and if an individual declares these on his annual return, tax can be recovered by adjusting the tax code for the next year in the normal way, which is a better way of dealing with the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence how many British troops are to remain in Cyprus under the control of the United Nations; and for how long they will be retained in the island.

We have undertaken to provide if necessary up to half of a United Nations force of 7,000 men. The Secretary-General is however seeking to obtain larger contingents from other countries. If, as we all hope, he is successful this will enable us to withdraw troops from the British contingent. The Security Council Resolution of 4th March gives the United Nations force a three months' mandate.

But on the assumption, which appears to be well founded, that the Greek Cypriot forces are now in almost overwhelming strength compared with the United Nations force, does not the right hon.. Gentleman think that we are reaching the point when we must leave it to the Greek Cypriots and the Turks to maintain order without the aid of our troops? Is it not likely that either our troops will be humiliated by the opposing strength of the other forces, or they will be liquidated?

However the future may turn out, I think that it has been with the general approval of the House, and certainly of the party opposite, that we have made our contributions to the United Nations force. In answer to this Question, I have said what that obligation is, that it is half of 7,000, but we may, and we all hope that we will, be able to reduce it as the other contingents are increased.

Is it not obvious that there has been a change in the situation? When the United Nations decided to make a contribution, to which we have added our quota, it was not anticipated that the Greek Cypriots would build up a force of 30,000 men. In those circumstances, dots not the right hon.. Gentleman think oat the matter requires reconsideration?

With respect to the right hon.. Gentleman, he is really asking me a much wider question than that on the Order Paper. He is asking whether the United Nations should be there, or should stay there in the future. If things turn out well, there may be no need for the force, and in those circumstances we shall not contribute to it.

May I ask my right hon.. Friend why the United Nations should continue to rely on what Great Britain has done in Cyprus? Why should not we get on a bit more and get a bit more support from those who are attached, and committed, to the United Nations? We ought to be a bit tough with the United Nations, not with our forces.

I have said that the Secretary-General is seeking to get increased contributions from other nations contributing to this force. I think that it is the wish of the House that he should be successful in that, so that our liability may in some measure be reduced.

Will the right hon.. Gentleman explain to his hon.. Friend that one of the principal difficulties in building up a United Nations force in the island is the refusal of Archbishop Makarios to accept contributions from a great many countries, including all those in Africa?

No doubt there have been difficulties in building up the United Nations force, but no one can say that we have contributed to them We have done our best all the way through.

That is the point.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he will introduce a special United Nations allowance for British forces serving under united Nations command in Cyprus;

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the pay receivable by members of Her Majesty's Forces serving under United Nations command.

I should perhaps make it plain that the United Nations are neither paying nor making any allowance to any of the forces now in Cyprus Each contributing nation is paying it sown forces, and the rates naturally differ in this as in any other theatre where troops of different nations are serving. Members of Her Majesty's Forces receive the same basic scales of pay wherever they are serving. In addition, those serving outside the United Kingdom receive a local overseas allowance designed to give the serviceman the same purchasing power as his pay would provide in the United Kingdom. It is not easy or perhaps possible to make exact comparisons regarding total emoluments of other forces serving in Cyprus. All of them, however, are receiving certain additional allowances and I am circulating a note of these so far as they are known in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have considered carefully whether any special allowance should be paid to British troops in Cyprus in addition to the normal over-seas allowance but I feel bound to tell the House that I do see considerable difficulties in adopting such a course Unlike some of the other contingents, a High proportion of British forces normally serve overseas. For example, over 50 per cent. Of the Army is at present outside the United Kingdom. I am sure the House will realise the difficulties of distinguishing between Cyprus and overseas theatres such as Borneo, where conditions are no less arduous, or even between men in Cyprus, some of whom are serving with the United Nations and some inside the Sovereign Base areas.

Is the right hon.. Gentle-man aware that the argument that he has just used is not entirely valid, since British troops serving overseas in other theatres retain a sole allegiance which, in the case of Cyprus, has been temporarily merged in a new allegiance to the United Nations? Would it not therefore be an act of simple justice to bring the pay and allowances of our troops there up to the level of the highest in the United Nations forces, preferably at the expense of the United Nations?

I am not saying that I find this at all easy. I concede that it is not an easy thing to answer. It is certainly not a simple matter, which ever way judgment is made. But what has influenced my mind is the fact that we have so many soldiers overseas, in so many different theatres, that it is difficult to start distinguishing between them. Although arguments may be advanced on the other side, this must be the decisive one.

Is it not a fact that the extra allowances paid by smaller nations to their armies are a kind of premium for United Nations service? Are not these forces becoming something in the nature of United Nations mercenaries? Therefore, is it not right that British forces should be paid such premiums, preferably out of United Nations funds?

As we advance, other arrangements may be devised about United Nations forces. Logically I suppose that these troops should be formed in a way in which everybody contributed to a common pool, and then all the forces would be paid the same—perhaps a fairly high rate. We have not got to that stage yet, and I have to deal with the situation as it is today. As it is today, I think that this is the right answer.

I recognise the validity of many of the arguments that the right hon.. Gentleman has used, but does not he agree that there is some discontent—I do not think that that is too high a word to use—among British forces serving in Cyprus at what appears to them to be inferior conditions of pay compared with those of some other forces serving under the United Nations? If he feels that it is impossible to make a unilateral British decision in this matter, will he ask the Foreign Secretary to raise this matter in New York, and see whether it is not possible to organise, through the United Nations, a standard rate of pay for all forces serving under United Nations command?

All these suggestions merit consideration for the future. It may be that we shall see in the world numbers of examples of troops acting in this way. But I have to deal with the situation as it is, and I think that it would be wrong for me to hold out any prospect of being able to adjust the matter in this instance. At the moment my thoughts are rather based on the possibility of withdrawing some of our contingent as other forces are increased.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate has been made of the further requirements for Short Belfast aircraft that would be needed to enable Her Majesty's Government to provide the logistic support for a United Nations peace-keeping force, as at present being considered

None, Sir. No R.A.F. requirement for extra Belfast aircraft is foreseen.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said, on 21st March, that they were looking into the Scandinavian suggestion that some assistance to the United Nations peacekeeping force on the logistic side was being investigated by the Government Would not this be a suitable way of tying in that investigation with the assistance that we hope will be given to the Northern Ireland employment situation by a further order for Belfasts?

I congratulate the hon.. Member on his ingenious way of raising the question of the interests of Northern Ireland. We have given, and are continuing to give, a good deal of logistic support to the United Nations. We have done so in the Congo and in many other peace-keeping operations in the last few months.

Will my hon.. Friend bear in mind that a new jet engined type of Belfast aircraft can be developed to give an improved performance? Will he consider ordering such a type of aircraft for our own use?

No, Sir—not at the moment. We have a good Transport Command. We are getting better air-craft and I, personally, foresee no immediate need of any such aircraft.

Is the hon.. Gentleman satisfied with the extent of our strategic freighter capabilities? As I understand it, until the Belfast arrives they are zero. Not only would this have assisted us in our United Nations obligation, but it would have helped in moving troops to Cyprus and East Africa if we had had some freighter capabilities.

We have managed. I have given the House remarkable figures of the freight and people that we have been able to move in the last few months with Transport Command as at present constituted. Undoubtedly it will be greatly improved when the Belfasts and the VC10s are in operation.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a further statement about plans to develop a low-level capability for the V-bomber force.

General trials and development to improve even further the low-level capability of the V-force are progressing satisfactorily. Otherwise, I have nothing to add to what I said during the recent Defence and Air Estimates debates.

Are we to understand from the Minister's Answer that he claims that the V-bomber force already has low-level capability? If not, when does he estimate that it will be avail-able? Is he now able to tell us some-thing about the cost involved in adapting the aircraft and training the men? Is this cost covered by the Estimates that he presented to Parliament a little while ago?

The capability already exists, but there are areas in which we could improve it, and that we are doing The costs are covered by the Estimates which have been presented.

Can the hon.. Gentle-man say what difference this makes to the life of the aircraft concerned? How many hours will it be capable of flying at these low altitudes?

All I can say is that on present training schedules it will be able to carry on well into the 1970s.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the case of William McCann, who was taken to and is now in Aberdeen Royal Infirmary after having been stabbed in Peterhead Prison; and what investigation he has made into this breach of prison regulations.

On 4th April William McCann and another prisoner in Peterhead prison were found to be suffering from wounds. The police were called in immediately and have reported to the procurator fiscal, who has decided not to institute proceedings Both men have recovered and have returned to work.

Is this a case of gang warfare? Did the authorities know of the difficulties between these prisoners before the affray and, if so, what steps did they take to avoid it? Is not it a fact that the unsatisfactory structure of our prisons makes this kind of thing possible? What steps is the Secretary of State taking to improve the structure so as to separate prisoners where there are known cases of gang antagonism?

The governor is investigating the question of how these prisoners gained possession of the means to injure each other, and my right hon.. Friend is awaiting his report. The prisoners concerned were members of a group selected for special privileges, including the freedom to move in the prison hall without continuous supervision. The record of this prison is good and these incidents have been few.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities in Scotland have no houses under construction; which they are; what are the reasons for this lack of building; and what steps he has taken, or proposes to take, to assist such local authorities to extend and implement their house building plans.

At the end of March, 84 local authorities had no houses under construction, 17 of these authorities had tenders approved for houses which they were about to start. I shall, with permission, circulate the names of the remaining 67 authorities in the OFFICIAL REPORT. About half of these 67 authorities had proposals in hand to resume building; some have said that they have no need to build further houses at present, and four that they are not building for financial reasons. My right hon.. Friend is always willing to help but it is for the authorities, in the first place, to decide whether they need to build more houses.

Is not the answer in respect of those local authorities which have not built many houses, and is not it a fact that high interest rates deter some local authorities from carrying out their obligations relating to housing? What steps is the Secretary of State taking to rectify this by the provision of lower interest rates or otherwise?

Of the 67 authorities, 62 were small burghs which in any case build only from time to time. There is no evidence that local authorities in general cannot afford to build houses which they need because of high interest rates, and the 43,000 local authority houses now under construction is certainly not evidence of this.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of dentists employed in the School Dental Service, and the number of children examined during 1963 in relation to the total school population.

There were 192 dentists in the School Dental Service in 1963, and they examined some 46 per cent of the total school population. This is in addition to children who had their teeth examined by the general dental service.

The Under-Secretary of State does not indicate how many children were examined under the general dental service. Is not it time to take positive action to bring the School Dental Service up to strength? Is not he aware that there is a great deal of ignorance concerning the care and treatment available for children under 21 under the general dental service? Will he publicise what treatment may be given in that way and so relieve the pressure on the School Dental Service? Is not it obvious that the Scottish Office ought to be doing something more to enlarge the School Dental Service?

There are three points in the hon.. Gentleman's supplementary question and the first I can answer straight away Last year 47 per cent of the school population received dental treatment through the general dental service. In order to achieve what the hon.. Gentleman wishes, we should need to attract more dentists to the School Dental Service. There have been three dental service campaigns recently, and my right hon.. Friend is doing all he can in this direction.

Have the Government made any estimate of how many more dentists are needed? Will the hon.. Gentleman bear in mind that this was one of the reasons given by the Government more than 10 years ago for the changes made in respect of the dental section of the National Health Service? Why, after all these years, have we still a completely inadequate School Dental Service?

Recent figures show an improvement, but we are still some way short of what would be a comprehensive system. Last year, in conjunction with local authority associations my right hon.. Friend's Department issued a report which suggested improvements in the conditions of service aimed at allowing dentists to spend more time on work at the chair.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many schemes have been made by local authorities arising from the provisions of the Flood Prevention (Scotland) Act, 1961; and how many schemes he has confirmed.

Nine have been made. Seven of these have been confirmed, and the other two are at present going through the normal statutory procedure.

Is the Joint Under-Secretary of State aware that there is much loss of good arable land because of periodic flooding in many parts of Scotland? Is he further aware that this flooding also destroys many crops and agricultural buildings? Will he do what he can to persuade local authorities to carry out the provisions of the 1961 Act so that land may be reclaimed?

I think that the hon. Member will recall—we both served on the Standing Committee which deal with the Bill which became the 1961 Act—that the Act refers to non-agricultural land. On this land schemes may be made. This is permissive, and I have no reason to believe that local authorities are not doing all they should in this direction.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what basis compensation is paid by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board for loss of sporting rights; and what is the total sum paid by the Board from its inception to date.

Sporting rights acquired by the Board, or injuriously affected by the Board's operations, rank for compensation under the normal statutory code incorporated in the Land Clauses (Scotland) Act and related legislation. The Board has informed my right hon.. Friend that detailed examination of several thousand individual cases would be needed to ascertain the total sum exactly; but it estimates that of the £1·4 million paid for land and compensation in respect of its generating schemes, about one-half may be in respect of sporting rights.

Is not the figure extremely high? Is the Minister aware that many Highland landowners are far more interested in maintaining the north of Scotland as a huge sporting estate than in having hydro-electric development, or any kind of economic development in the Highlands? When are the Government going to get tough with these landowners and stop allowing them to dictate Government policy towards hydro-electric development?

I do not think this a high figure for a period of about 20years. I know that it is less than 1 per cent. of the Board's capital expenditure on generation. Most of the land concerned is not of high value.

Is not it true that the value of the sporting rights in Scotland contributes greatly to the attraction of the country to tourists? As an Englishman,have not I been led to believe that the possibilities of tourism in Scotland is one of the principal features of the economy?

I confirm that fishing in particular is a very valuable tourist amenity and that the rates from fishing also contribute to the assets of the local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will initiate consultations between the Scottish Home and Health Department and local authorities for the purpose of creating at an early date a unified and comprehensive welfare service for the care of old people.

My right hon.. Friend wants the services for old people to be as comprehensive as possible, and his Department is constantly in touch with local authorities about means of improving them. But I am not sure that these services would operate more effectively if they were separated from the similar services provided for the rest of the community.

Is the hon.. Member aware that at a very well attended conference in Scotland of local authorities recently One of the prominent doctors there insisted that these services could be better looked after if an initiative were to come from the Department? Will the hon. Member reconsider this matter?

I am aware of the statement to which the hon.. Member refers. It was an important and interesting statement. None the less, my right hon.. Friend is conscious of the many different services which are required by elderly people, and he still feels that this is best done by the Departments concerned with similar services provided for the rest of the community.

The hon.. Member must be aware that where there is overlapping and duplication there tend also to be gaps, with some institutions thinking that the service has been covered by other people. Will he look into this again, because what is required is a unified service in respect of the welfare of the old.

I agree with the hon.. Member that we do not want duplication or gaps, but my right hon.. Friend thinks that under the system which he prefers it is most unlikely that these will occur.