asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to preserve panelling and other woodwork from damage by excessive temperatures due to central heating in buildings under his control, particularly 10, Downing Street and 7, Old Palace Yard.

Some shrinkage is occurring at No. 10 Downing Street and 7 Old Palace Yard. This is due mainly to drying out and not to excessive temperatures. The central heating systems incorporate controls to keep room temperatures to around 65 degrees F.

I readily accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that this is not due to excessive temperature, but surely there must be some very grave fault in the workmanship or design that drying-out should have caused cracks of the magnitude that are reported and are seen? Will my hon. Friend give the House an assurance that there will be a proper investigation into this and a further assurance that other ancient buildings under the care of his Department are not suffering from similar cracks due to new central heating?

I do not think one wants to exaggerate what has happened. It is only in a few cases where some panels have split and this can be put right with the normal touching up which will always be required on works of this kind, and making good.

If it is something quite minor, as the Parliamentary Secretary suggests, could he not refer it to the National Building Agency, but, if it is as bad as the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells) suggests, does he not think the whole question of the rebuilding of 10, Downing Street should be referred to the Public Accounts Committee?

No, Sir. I do not think we should exaggerate this. It is only in a few places where one or two panels have split and I think we should always expect this in a major reconstruction such as this.

While I accept that that may be the case in 10, Downing Street, which I have not seen, I am daily in 7, Old Palace Yard and cannot accept my hon. Friend's remarks that this is minor cracking of a few panels. It is major cracking in a great many cases. He should look into this far more closely, because hon. Members frequently visit that building and must be disquieted by what they see there.

I shall certainly visit 7, Old Palace Yard myself. I have not seen it, but I certainly will do so.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why the estimated cost of re-occupation services of Apartment 1A of Kensington Palace has increased from the original figure of £50,000 to the provisional figure of £69,600.

The original figure of £50,000 was a preliminary estimate which was increased to £65,000 before the contract was let in January, 1962, and shown accordingly in the printed Estimates for 1962–63. The additional £4,600 covers increases in wages and in the cost of materials and the estimated final cost of additional repairs, the need for which became apparent only during the course of the work.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of anger in the country about this shocking waste of the resources of the country, more especially as it is for people who can well afford to house themselves and, secondly, because there are so many thousands of people in London who cannot find a house?

I do not accept what the hon. Member says.

Of course the hon. Gentleman does not.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what has been the total cost of work done at 1A, Kensington Palace in the three years 1961, 1962 and 1963: and what will be the estimated total cost on completion of the work there.

The total cost to the New Works Subhead of the Royal Palaces Votes in 1961, 1962 and 1963 was £68,000. The estimated final cost is £69,600.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what steps he is taking to recoup himself from the occupants of this building?

This is a Royal Palace, and repairs and maintenance of Royal Palaces come under the Royal Palaces Vote.

We have found in the past that the occupants of these buildings sometimes make a contribution towards them. Why not in this case? We tend to think there is a degree of capriciousness in the selection of decoration and such things as that.

No, Sir. The cost of the boiler house, the boiler equipment, the kitchen equipment and some of the decorations was met privately by the occupants.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, in view of the stress laid on standards of flammability for materials used in walls and ceilings under the new Building Regulations, Command Paper No. 2279, how many machines are in existence in the United Kingdom at the present time for testing the flammability of materials.

The appropriate British Standard lays down the test procedure for the surface spread of flame on materials used as wall and ceiling linings, and also describes a preliminary test useful for manufacturers. There is one full-scale testing appliance in operation in the United Kingdom, at the Fire Research Station; and I understand that a further appliance, to be operated by a firm of consultants, is being commissioned. I am informed that the preliminary test is operated by about 12 other laboratories.

In view of the drastic nature of these Regulations, is the Minister satisfied that only one of these machines should be available? Surely he must have some arrangement to cope with the Regulations, both those that exist at present and those likely to come into force?

The new Regulations have not yet been published. We have only the report of the Advisory Committee. If there are delays in future my right hon. Friend would certainly be prepared to consult with his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science to see how best to consider this, but at the moment there are not delays.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many industrialised building systems are being used; and how many local authorities employ such systems.

I regret that this information is not available in the form requested. I understand that more than 300 industrialised building systems have been or are being developed in this country. In 1962–63 some 45 of these were in use by local authorities.

Can my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the increasing use of these industrialised building systems, which most people would welcome, will not in any way jeopardise the employment of those engaged in traditional building methods? Will he go further and welcome the introduction of these new systems?

I certainly welcome the introduction of these new systems, which we are doing all we can to promote. I can also give an assurance that we do not believe they will interfere in any way with other building work which is being carried on by traditional methods. There is need for both

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress he has made in the standardisation of living accommodation design for all three Services.

My Ministry and the Ministry of Defence have already agreed on common cost limits and we shall soon have agreed common scales of accommodation. I shall shortly be letting a contract for 2,000 houses to a standard scale to be built by industrialised methods, for use by all three Services.

I welcome that reply. What economy in cost does my right hon. Friend expect from having uniform designs?

I did not refer to uniform designs. I referred to a uniform scale. I think I had better wait until. I can announce the details of the contract.

Is the Minister aware that when some of us looked at his exhibition at the Ministry of Public Building and Works, some Members of the House expressed the common opinion—there were members of all parties there—that the general difference between officer accommodation and other rank accommodation was too marked? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this question? There is a degree of palatialness about officer accommodation which is not always apparent with other rank accommodation.

That concerns a number of Departments which have a say in the scales. I think it can be said that the scales of accommodation for both officers and men are now pretty good.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that, when standardisation of design is achieved, this will enable those producing industrialised housing to compete very fairly?

I do not envisage standardisation of design. I think that the use of these new methods will enable us to have a wider variety of designs and better designs.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why his Department's estimates for architects', engineers' and other consultants' fees under agency services, Class IX, I, were increased from £50,000 in the 1963–64 Estimates to £710,000 by way of a Supplementary Estimate; and why the estimates are to be increased to £950,000 in the 1964–65 Estimates.

The original draft of the 1963–64 Estimates was prepared partly in the Ministry of Public Building and Works and partly in the three Service Ministries, for those works services we became responsible only on 1st April, 1963. It was not the practice of the Service Ministries to show these agency fees in a separate Subhead. The purpose of the Supplementary Vote was (mainly to transfer sums from other Votes to a single Subhead so that the total expenditure on agency services could be easily identified.

The increase in 1964–65 reflects a larger programme of works services to be undertaken.

Does not this make nonsense of the claim of the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend that the amalgamation of the War Department building services with the Ministry of Public Building and Works was done efficiently? How could nearly £¾ million worth of work be overlooked, especially when this was a growing service for which another nearly £¼ million was added in the current year?

No, I do not think so at all. What it represents is a more efficient system of bookkeeping so that we know more accurately what the costs are. It does not represent additional expenditure.

Is the idea that a more efficient system of bookkeeping betrays a greater aggregate loss? Is that what the Minister means?

No. This is Service building. What it does betray is that we know more accurately now what Service building costs. We are accurately costing the agency fees.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why repairs are necessary in the new maisonettes of the Talavera Park Estate, Aldershot; and if he will order an inquiry into the building procedures used.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what repairs are now required in the new married quarters at Talavera Park Estate, Aldershot.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what are the causes of the bulging of certain floors in married quarters recently built at Talavera Park Estate, Aldershot; how they are going to be repaired; at what cost; what arrangements are to be made for temporarily displaced occupants; and for what period they will be displaced.

One steel beam in each maisonette was not deep enough to resist a deflection of about ¼ in. Measures are in hand to strengthen the floors and make good the small movement in partition walls. Repairs will cost £78 for each of the 64 quarters completed and £25 for each of the 64 quarters under construction. The work will be finished about the end of May. It will take a few days for each quarter and occupants temporarily displaced will be accommodated in quarters completed but not yet occupied.

The cause of the trouble is clear without the need for a special inquiry.

How much movement does the Parliamentary Secretary expect in the Aldershot buildings? As a set of very expensive buildings fell down last July and as these buildings have moved ¼ in., does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is some lack of supervision in his Department which allows this kind of building to go on undetected?

No, Sir. The deflection here was only ¼ in. None the less, there was a mistake in the construction of these buildings, which I readily admit, and I should like to apologise to the occupants for the inconvenience caused to them.

Is not this but one of many examples showing how lax the control of Government expenditure is? When will the Government take steps to ensure that the unfortunate taxpayer gets value for money? It is not only these married quarters at Aldershot. No. 10, Downing Street and everything the Government are connected with is cracking up.

No, Sir. I do not accept that. We in the Ministry of Public Building and Works are now doing building to the value of over £200 million a year, and the cost of putting right these married quarters is some £6,600.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware that much of the panelling on the walls of the recently rebuilt No. 10, Dawning Street would be disallowed under the new Draft Building Regulations referred to in Command Paper No. 2279; what proposals he has for the future of this panelling in the light of these regulations; and what changes he proposes to make in these draft Regulations to enable this panelling to be preserved.

The panelling at No. 10, Downing Street is practically all original and Building Regulations drafted in accordance with the advice of the Building Regulations Advisory Committee would not apply.

Will the hon. Gentleman look at the Building Regulations again? Is it not a fact that natural wood would have to be impregnated with certain chemicals that are so expensive as to make it absolutely impossible to use them at No. 10, Downing Street, or anywhere else? Does he not think that in the circumstances such a Regulation should never have been brought forward? Is he in a position to say that it will not be brought forward and made retrospective, so that at least No. 10, Downing street can be used in the very near future by another Government?

No, Sir. The Regulations will not be made retrospective. I understand that natural wood can be treated to make it flame resistant. The cost is very little more than painting.

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to make a statement at some time about what the cost of complying with those Regulations is likely to be? In answer to a previous Question the hon. Gentleman said that the Regulations are about to be revised. When are we likely to have a revised set of Regulations?

The Building Regulations are being drafted at present, but in any case they would not apply to old panelling put back into a building which has been restored.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that the Regulations encourage the use of home-grown timber, both for panelling and other purposes, rather than discourage it?

Although I certainly support the sentiment lying behind my hon. Friend's supplementary question, it is rather wider than the panelling of No. 10, Downing Street.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what action he has taken to implement the recommendations of the Report of the Working Party on Building and Civil Engineering Procedure in Scotland to stimulate increased Scottish production of building materials and components.

My right hon. Friend hopes to be in a position shortly to make a statement about the Report and its implementation.

Will the Government examine the possibility of using local stone and other local materials, since architects and designers would welcome a change from the industrialised concrete world in which they seem to be working?

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend will certainly take the hon. Gentleman's point into account.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what action he has taken to implement the recommendations of the Working Party on Building and Civil Engineering Procedure in Scotland on conditions of contract for building work in Scotland.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made in implementing the recommendations of the Working Party on Building and Civil Engineering Procedure in Scotland in respect of contractual practices in the industry.

On conditions of contract in Scotland, the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland has set up a committee to revise the existing Scottish general conditions of contract. The committee has already met once and is dealing with this as a matter of urgency. On the recommendations of the Working Party generally, my right hon. Friend has invited comments from the organisations and bodies concerned.

On the question of contractual practices, are Government Departments to take any steps to initiate the all-trades form of contracting instead of the present separate trade contracting which is prevalent in Scotland?

We have the recommendations of the Working Party under consideration and I think that I would rather leave further comments on this matter until my right hon. Friend has made his broader statement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made with establishing in Scotland the National Building Agency.

The Chairman informs me that the Agency intends to commence operations in Scotland as soon as possible. Both he and the Deputy Chairman have been to Scotland. Negotiations are in progress for the acquisition of a suitable office in Edinburgh; and the Agency hopes to staff and open this office by June this year.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that his right hon. Friend has a reputation for hustle and bustle and that we would have expected something more than this to have been done by now? Since the date has been given, will he remember that we have hopes for great things from this Agency which is to be established in Scotland and that we will watch its development with great interest?

We hope so too, but I do not think that June is too bad.

Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the question of the siting of the office? Is he not aware that the Government's policy of dispersal is running counter to the suggestion that these things should be sited always either in Edinburgh or Glasgow, and is it not reasonable to suggest that this office should be sited in a smaller town, perhaps further north in Scotland?

The question of siting is a matter for the Agency itself. The Agency must work closely with the Scottish Development Department and with my Ministry's Scottish headquarters and it must also be readily accessible to local authorities, professional institutions and building trade bodies. It was for that reason that the Agency decided that the best place for it to be sited was Edinburgh.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware that during the cleaning of the fresco painting of the Death of Nelson in the Royal Gallery, a small area of damage attributed to shrapnel during an air raid in the 1914–18 war has been repaired; whether he was consulted before the repair was made; and whether he will have the scar made by the shrapnel replaced.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will replace the scar on the sailor's knee in the painting in the Royal Gallery of the Death of Nelson, removed through ignorance during the painting's recent cleaning.

I am aware that this small damaged area was repaired while the painting was cleaned. The aim has been to restore the painting as nearly as possible to the condition in which the artist painted it. In all the circumstances I do not think it would be right to restore the scar.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how disappointing his Answer will be to the school children of Britain as well as to hon. Members who take children from their constituencies around and show them the difference between the tiny amount of damage done in the First World War and the Churchill Arch, which signifies what happened to this Chamber in the Second World War? Will he not kindly reconsider the decision he has now given and allow either myself or another hon. Member to put the damage right?

I have some sympathy with that point of view, but I do not think that hon. Members on either side of the House are short of patter on these or other occasions. My difficulty in this instance concerns the restoration or rather, the de-restoration of a painting which it took the artist seven years to complete.

Was the scar not a scar at all? Was it not the situation that during the war it was kept alive by the assiduous use of an occasional touching up with chalk?

That may well be true.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he will announce his decision on the proposal of Croydon Borough Council to enter into a joint scheme with his Department for the provision of a combined courts building in Croydon.

I cannot say at this stage when I shall be able to announce my decision. Discussions are proceeding but there are several matters on which we have not yet been able to reach agreement with the Council.

Will my right hon. Friend reflect that a solution which results in a combined court building for Croydon will be very much in his interests, that it will lead to economies in the long run and that it is necessary that he should move quickly in this matter in view of the urgent need that exists for this building and the fact that the Council has a first-class site available?

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is a good solution, provided the terms are satisfactory. Representatives of my Ministry and the Home Office are having a further meeting with representatives of the Council this week.

Will my right hon. Friend reflect that the other two Departments mainly concerned, the Home Office and the Lord Chancellor's Department, are thoroughly in favour of this plan and are pressing hard for its implementation? Will he take that into account?

We are all in favour of the principle, but we are not agreed on the terms.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress has been made towards increasing the sales of guide books and postcards at the ancient monuments and historic buildings in his care.

Between 1959 and 1963 receipts for sales at ancient monuments and historic buildings in my care rose from some £65,000 to about £150,000, an increase of 130 per cent.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer. Do the improvements reflect an increase in the number of visitors actually visiting the monuments and historic buildings and, if so, how big is the increase?

Yes, sir. The improvement is partly due to an increase of admissions, which rose between 1959 and 1963 from 6½ million to over 7½ million. It is also due to the fact that the range of guides and, I think, their standard, has been rising steadily.

Would not sales be substantially increased if No. 10, Downing Street were thrown open to the public? Would not more postcards and guide books then be sold relating to No. 10? After all, the Prime Minister is away so often that it could easily be opened to the general public on two or three days a week.

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the programme for rebuilding, repairs and maintenance for the Royal Marine Barracks, Stonehouse, Plymouth, H.M.S. "Drake", Devonport, H.M.S. "Thunderer", Plymouth, and the Royal Naval Hospital, Stonehouse, Plymouth; in which years it is contemplated that the work will be carried out; and what will be the total cost.

The total cost of major rebuilding in progress at present or to be started at the four establishments during the years 1964 to 1966 is estimated at £2,240,000. Much of the work will be completed by the end of 1966. Maintenance and repair expenditure in the current financial year is estimated at a total of £195,000.

With permission I will circulate details of the programmes in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Since H.M.S. "Drake" and the Royal Naval Hospital are very much in need of urgent modernisation, how does this programme compare with the programme originally provided by the Navy Works Department?

The work we do is the work we are asked to do by the Navy Department, and certainly we intend to press on with this work as fast as we can. Perhaps my hon. Friend will look at the details which are to be circulated, which are quite extensive.

What steps are taken to invite estimates from the various shipyards to see that this valuable work is fairly distributed among the shipyards of Britain, including those of Aberdeen?

This Question relates to expenditure on various establishments, not on ships—which, I think, the hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many men he took over from the Navy Works Department; how the rates of pay compare with those of the Navy Works Department; and how many men earn less than £11 per week.

Altogether, 15,275 non-industrial and industrial staff, including women and juveniles, were transferred to the Ministry from the Admiralty in April, 1963. They all retained their rates of pay on transfer. Of the total, 4,269 are locally engaged overseas and earnings figures for them are not available centrally. Of the 1,598 non-industrial and 9,408 industrial staff in the United Kingdom, 115 and 2,000, respectively, are now earning less than £11 a week.

Will my right hon. Friend look into the question of those earning less than £a week and say how their salaries compare with what they would earn in private industry for doing the same jobs?

They are paid at Government rates, which in this case are reviewed twice a year in negotiation with the trade unions concerned.

May I ask whether a wage claim is at present outstanding for these people, because I am sure that the figure will strike most hon. Members as being rather low?

As I pointed out, a review of their rates is made every six months. I cannot say whether at the moment a particular claim is outstanding.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he proposes to replant the plane trees in Trafalgar Square.

On the advice of my Advisory Committee on Forestry, I have decided that the existing unhealthy trees need not be felled until the autumn and should then be replaced with semi-mature plane trees. The Civic Trust has successfully developed a new technique for transplanting semi-mature trees and I have gratefully accepted the Trust's offer to advise me on the replanting in the Square.

In thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to give an assurance that the present character of the Square will be retained? Can he also say what will be the height of the new trees?

My Advisory Committee on Forestry will advise on the siting. The trees which we have ordered are all about 15 years old and about 19 ft. high.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many immigrants admitted to the United Kingdom under the Commonwealth Immigrants Act as dependent relatives have subsequently received National Assistance.

I am afraid this information is not available.

In view of the large numbers of immigrants who have been admitted under this Section of the Act, and the conflicting reports on the numbers who subsequently receive National Assistance, is it not possible for my right hon. Friend to arrange for this information to be available?

I will see whether there in any way in which I can help my hon. Friend, but the position is that the National Assistance Act does not distinguish between people who have immigrated into this country and others; therefore, the records of the National Assistance Board do not cover this question.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if, in order to make the benefits of National Assistance more attractive both to those who receive them and to others eligible to receive them, he will consider changing its description to National Welfare.

My hon. Friend's objective has my full support, but the officers of the National Assistance Board have built up a reputation for kindness and sympathy. I think it more important to preserve this than to change the name of the Board.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer, but is he aware that, above all things, the work of the staff matters far more than the name? Would he give this further consideration, because, although Shakespeare had a few words to say about the value of names, the name is of great importance in regard to public services.

As my hon. Friend knows, this question has been given consideration from time to time and there has never been agreement as to what name would be better. My own opinion is that a change might well lose as much as it gained.

Would not a much better solution be to increase National Insurance benefits and so get rid of the Board altogether?

National Insurance benefits are all immensely higher in real value now than they were in 1951.

With the same object in mind, would not my right hon. Friend think it highly desirable to find some way of managing National Assistance payments so that those who receive them permanently and regularly may receive them with their ordinary National insurance benefits?

As my hon. Friend knows, the words "National Assistance" do not appear on the order books through which grants are paid at the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what considerations are taken into account when deciding the amount of constant attendance allowance to be paid to an individual.

Subject to maxima laid down by the Industrial Injuries Act and Royal Warrant, the amount of constant attendance allowance under the Industrial Injuries and War Pensions Schemes is determined by the extent and nature of the help pensioners require because of their pensionable disability in order to look after their personal needs like dressing and eating.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is at present some dissatisfaction in some individual instances at the rate of constant attendance allowance paid? If I send to him details of one case, in which a daughter who has had to give up her work to look after her father full-time has been given 37s. 6d. a week, will he look into it for me?

I will certainly look into the case mentioned by the hon. Lady.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce amending legislation to enable any mineworker suffering from pneumoconiosis, chronic bronchitis or emphysema to claim full insurance benefit if he has worked for five years or more underground, even though doubt may exist as to whether his condition arises directly from his work in tae mines.

No, Sir. I assume the hon. Lady has in mind the higher rates of benefit under the Industrial Injuries scheme. To justify the preferential benefits of that scheme it is essential for the connection between a person's work and his injury or disease to be clearly established. This is not so with bronchitis and emphysema, which are common complaints among all sections of the community; but with pneumoconiosis the position is quite different, because its connection with the conditions of employment has been clearly established. Where a miner is found to have the disease, it is assumed to have been caused by his occupation providing he has worked in the mines for over two years.

Is the Minister aware that there are some heart-breaking cases in which there is disputed medical evidence? If the bringing of all men suffering from those complaints up to the highest possible payment level cannot be covered by the present insurance provisions, surely a compassionate Government ought to find some other way of ensuring that the end result is achieved; that no man who has been working underground and is suffering from any of those diseases should be deprived of maximum benefit.

The Government are bound by Section 55(2) of the 1946 Act which, as the hon. Lady knows, requires a disease to be a risk of the occupation and not a risk common to all persons. The incidence of bronchitis and emphysema is common not just among miners.

Would the Minister bear in mind, however, that workers in the cotton industry who inhale dust from cotton and sustain a disease called byssinosis—which is asthma, with bronchitis and bronchial spasms—after 10 years' work qualify for Industrial Injury benefit. Would he not agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee) is right in asking for a similar 10 years' grace, so that men who enter fit into the mining industry and later suffer from pulmonary disability, bronchitis, bronchial spasm, emphysema and shortness of breath generally, should be classed as suffering from industrial disease?

Many of the issues mentioned by the bon. Lady obviously arise in the cases mentioned by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Sir B. Stross). If the hon. Gentleman likes to put down a specific question on the subject, I will do my best to answer it.

The Minister says that chronic bronchitis is to be found among all sections of the community, but is he aware of the high correlation between chronic bronchitis and employment in the mining industry?

It is true, as the hon. Member says, that the incidence of bronchitis tends to be higher among miners, but it tends to be higher still among miners' wives. That is one of the things that makes the problem very difficult to deal with.

But is not the Minister aware that for many years now there has been agitation to have not only pneumoconiosis scheduled as an industrial disease but to have general chest disabilities so scheduled? Will the Minister at least promise to have this whole matter investigated again, because great hardship is certainly caused in the mining industry, and in the steel industry, with things as they are at present?

I am always ready to consider any evidence brought forward about this matter, but while it is certainly true that bronchitis is more common among some groups than others—for instance, it is more common among smokers than among non-smokers, and more common in towns than in the country—it has not yet been established that it is an occupational disease of miners.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will set up an official inquiry into the position of married persons with large families, with a view to ascertaining whether family allowances are sufficient to provide requisite standards of nutrition.

No, Sir. Family allowances are a general supplement to family income, but they have never been intended to cover the full cost of maintaining a child.

Has my right hon. Friend read the recent book on nutrition in Britain, which seems to indicate that children in large families are somewhat undernourished? When a book of that kind appears, would it not be a good idea, in the interests of the community as a whole, for my right hon. Friend not, perhaps, to be quite so dogmatic, but really to find out what the facts are, and whether these statements are correct, so that we can take appropriate action?

I have seen this pamphlet. One of the interesting parts of it is that this disparity in nutrition between the small families and the larger families is not correlated very closely to income. The disparity is true of both the families with higher incomes and those with lower incomes. In any event, my hon. Friend will be aware that the welfare services—school meals, school milk and so on—are intended as much as family allowances to deal with the problem.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that I had to put the Question in this form in order to get it to him? Is it not possible that the whole situation requires looking at, or does not my right hon. Friend agree at all with the facts that are brought forward?

I realise that this pamphlet—and, indeed, the National Food Survey—has made clear that the larger families tend to be less well-nourished than the smaller families, but this is common to families in all income groups. I will certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend says.

asked the Minister of Health when the final costings of the new building for the Tavistock clinic were received in his Department for approval; and why approval has not yet been given.

August last: approval has been given.

Why was there this considerable delay? After all, it is an agreed scheme.

A number of important matters had to be settled by discussion before technical and financial approval could be given; for example, parts of the new premises are to be occupied by a non National Health Service occupant

asked the Minister of Health what is the doctor-patient ratio in the County Borough of St. Helens, Lancashire; if he is satisfied that the present number of general practitioners there adequately provides the medical care required; and if he will make a statement.

The general practitioners living in St. Helens have average National Health Service lists of about 2,650. The area is designated by the Medical Practices Committee as being in need of more doctors.

What is the hon. Gentleman's Department doing about getting more doctors so that proper medical care can be given to patients in St. Helens? Has he considered developing team practices to overcome the difficulties which doctors, with lists of 3,000 or 3,500 patients are having to face? How can doctors give proper medical care when they have all these patients on their lists?

I fully accept that the figure of 2,650 which I have just given is high. The situation is improving slightly, the average list having fallen by about 125 over the last two years. But I must say that there is no easy way of solving the problem of shortage in St. Helens. We shall need more doctors, and the House will be aware of the steps being taken to increase the output of medical schools.

How many doctors in St. Helens have lists of 3,000 and more?

About 19, I think.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to ensure that the salaries of teachers in speech therapy and chiropody employed in the National Health Service are equivalent to those employed by local authorities.

None, Sir.

Does the hon. Gentleman think it reasonable that, in one case, the salary of teachers is 60 per cent. of that in the education service and, in the other case, it is half that in the education service, very often for better qualified teachers in the National Health Service than in the education service? How does the hon. Gentleman think that it will be possible to maintain teaching institutions of this kind in the National Health Service when salary differences are as great as they are?

As the hon. Gentleman may know, the salaries of teachers of chiropody in the National Health Service chiropody schools are, in the first instance, a matter for the appropriate Whitley Council. I understand that the Industrial Court will shortly hear the case for improving the salaries in both the clinical and teaching grades which the two sides of the Council were unable to resolve. In view of what the hon. Gentleman has said, he may like to know that my right hon. Friend has recently agreed to a revision of the salaries, which are not negotiated in the Whitley Council, of the principal and deputy principal of the only speech therapy school in the hospital service—the hon. Gentleman may have this in mind—in the light of changes in the salaries for similar posts at schools for allied professions which are negotiated by the appropriate Whitley Council.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these are not by any means the only two categories of staff in respect of whom there is this salary differential between the National Health Service and the local authorities, always to the detriment of the Health Service? How does he think that we shall ever get staffs within the Health Service up to a reasonable level if local authorities are always able to pay more? Is it not time that a general review were made of these categories of staff common to both services in an effort to arrive at a common level of salary?

If the hon. Gentleman is talking about teachers of chiropody in the National Health Service—that is what the Question refers to—

I said that there were others.

—I have explained exactly what steps we are taking to remedy the situation. If the hon. Gentleman is referring to other categories, perhaps he will put a Question down.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even after the salary increase which is going to the principal and deputy principal of the school of speech therapy, their salaries will be very little more than half the salary which they would get in the education service?

I should like to await the decision. It is quite impossible to form a judgment of that kind at this moment.

asked the Minister of Health what representations he has received, up to the latest convenient date, about the need to abolish prescription charges; and what action he proposes to take to do this.

During 1963, such representations were received from five organisations and 48 individuals. I remain of the view that the net sum yielded after hardship cases have been met is better devoted to the development of the Service than to the abolitions of the charges.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there are many thousands of people who do not qualify for National Assistance and who, therefore, cannot get relief for the prescription charge under National Assistance, and that this is causing real hardship? Will the Minister do something about it, or make way for a Government who will?

As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, where payment of prescription charges causes financial hardship help can be obtained through the National Assistance Board. I am always ready to look into any individual case. As the hon. Gentleman refers to the possibility of another Government, he will bear in mind that the abolition of all health charges would cost about £50 million a year? This would mean one of three things, that expenditure on the Health Service would be cut by that amount, that there would be £50 million less for some other public service, or that taxation would be increased by that amount. I should have thought that the Opposition might at least do the electorate the courtesy of letting them know which course they would adopt.

Does the Minister realise that the smallness of the number of representations is almost certainly due to the fact that people are fed up with protesting to this Government about prescription charges and are now content to await a change of Government in October? In response to his implied question to me, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that the next Labour Government will abolish prescription charges without making cuts anywhere else in the National Health Service to make up for the costs of their abolition?

At the beginning of the last Labour Government, we heard a great deal about what was going to happen to the National Health Service. What did happen was that, in the last Budget of the Labour Government, there was a cut in the social services, which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said in his resignation speech was quite unnecessary.

If the figures are available, will my right hon. Friend tell the House what charge would fall on the Exchequer if the charges for spectacles and teeth introduced by the Labour Government were also abolished?

I do not have the individual figures with me.

Is the Minister aware that a large number of people on small fixed incomes do not come within the category of those who can be helped by the National Assistance Board, which is ruled very strictly by regulations? People in t its category are very seriously hit by heavy prescription charges in their old age. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into that matter?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will let me have details of particular cases. If he does, I will be very happy, to look into them. As he knows, or as I assume he knows, the National Assistance Board can help people other than those who are in regular receipt of National Assistance.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of mistakes made in the 1961 census just published which seriously understates the number of houses without a bath, hot water system or inside water closet in Manchester and other cities; and if he will take action to have the figures corrected.

There is no evidence of any significant errors in the number of dwellings and households lacking bath or hot water tap. Misunderstanding of the census question on water closets led to an understatement of the numbers of dwellings and households lacking a water closet in the building or attached to it. It is not proposed to publish volumes of corrected tables.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in Manchester, for instance, the figure shown of houses without lavatories inside or attached to them is 1·2 per cent., whereas the proportion is over 25 per cent.? The figure in Liverpool is shown as 2·2 per cent. These are ridiculous figures which grossly understate the seriousness of the problem. Will the Minister consider having a special supplementary report made to correct this?

These errors—and they were errors—will be discussed in the housing report of the 1961 census. There is insufficient information available to make corrections to the published figures. Even if the information were available, it would be a difficult and costly operation to correct all the many thousands of separate figures which have already been published in the county volumes.

asked the Minister of Health what monetary contribution the United Kingdom will make to the establishment of the World Research Agency for Cancer.

Discussions with the other countries concerned have not yet made sufficient progress to make it possible to say what monetary contribution the United Kingdom will make.

Can the Minister assure the House that there will be an adequate contribution from our Government to this very commendable purpose, which would relieve very great suffering? Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any discussion of incorporating a research centre on cancer with the proposed world research centre? Is it not very desirable that the two should be associated so that the most effective contribution can be made?

On the latter point, I will bear in mind what the hon. Member says. We are still considering the technical and constitutional aspects of the proposal. The financial implications are also under consideration, but agreement has not yet been reached. The House may be interested to know that the kind of arrangement which is being considered would involve the basic contribution by each country which decides to take part supplemented by voluntary contributions in cash or kind for special projects.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that the London Executive Council recently removed from the surgery of a deceased general practitioner 598 drug samples, including several samples of the same drugs; and if he will bear in mind, in negotiating the renewal of the voluntary price regulation agreement with the pharmaceutical industry, the element of cost inflation resulting from the excessive supply of free samples to doctors.

Sales promotion costs, including samples, is one of many matters to be considered during the negotiations.

Will not the Minister agree that this sort of thing is carrying sales promotion a little far, particularly since many of these samples were of the same drug supplied to the same doctor again and again? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this must lead to a distinct inflation of drug costs?

Unfortunately, I do not have details of this particular incident, so I do not know over what period the samples were accumulated. But it seems to me that the supply of samples, which is a recognised form of bringing drugs to the attention of doctors, is sensible. I hope that the hon. Member will bear in mind that the code of sales promotion practice for medical specialities in the United Kingdom issued by the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry makes it clear that requests from doctors to be removed from mailing lists must be honoured. If this doctor did not want to receive the samples, all he had to do was to say so.

asked the Minister of Health what is the present state of negotiations about the remuneration of chemists in England and Wales for their National Health Service dispensing.

It was agreed in 1962 that an inquiry should be carried out by a firm of consultants into the expenses of National Health Service dispensing by chemists, other than the cost of drugs and containers, which is reimbursed separately and in full. Their final report was received in January. Since then I have met the chemists' representatives, and discussed the matter with them.

Remuneration for National Health Service dispensing is intended to cover two elements—firstly, chemists' actual outgoings and, secondly, their net earnings. The House will be pleased to know that as regards the outgoings, I have informed the chemists' representatives that, subject to certain minor aspects which are still under discussion, I accept the figures of actual outgoings revealed by the report. I estimate that this will involve an addition to total remuneration of at least £3 million a year, or an increase in the average payment to chemists of at least £230 a year

The second element which is taken into account in determining chemists' remunertaion is their net earnings. The object here is to ensure that they receive a fair reward for the service they provide. An increase in this element is, in my view, also justifiable. The actual amount is for negotiation.

The average increase in payment to cover expenses of at least £230 a year will be very warmly welcomed by the chemists, many of whom are rather worried by existing trading conditions. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman two questions? First, will he push forward the outstanding negotiations so as to reach a settlement as soon as possible? Secondly, would he agree that the right principle is that chemists should be properly paid for dispensing so that they do not have to subsidise their dispensing by profits on the sale of non-pharmaceutical products?

On the first point, I certainly want to proceed with all possible speed. Indeed, I suggested to the chemists that they should present to me a specific claim for increased remuneration for the very purpose of trying to get things going more quickly. I received that claim last month.

On the second point, our object has always been, and remains, to fix remuneration, including profit, at such a level as to give a fair return to the chemists for the service which they provide, regardless of the profit earned on the retail side.

Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House are very glad that some progress has been made towards resolving a matter which has been causing considerable concern among chemists? Will he bear in mind in the course of his negotiations that all the evidence points to the fact that under the existing arrangements the greatest hardship is suffered by the smaller chemists, particularly the one-man businesses, and that probably some further weighting in their favour is necessary if justice is to be done?

I am sure that the hon. Member would not expect me to say more than that I will bear that in mind. I have no doubt that it will be one of the points which we shall be considering with the chemists' representatives.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. May I put one question to him? He has spoken about the payment of the expenses element in remuneration. Those expenses having been paid already by the people concerned, can my right hon. Friend indicate whether any element of retrospection is possible in regard to that section of the remuneration?

I think that we have to see how the negotiations go, but certainly I would not rule out a measure of retrospect in so far as chemists' outgoings are concerned.