asked the Minister without Portfolio if he will introduce legislation to formalise the procedure of the Press Council, and in particular, to permit individuals to state their defence before a decision is made; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

Is not the present position unsatisfactory? Has my right hon. Friend looked into the case of Mr. Clement Freud, against whom a complaint was lodged following an article in the Sunday Telegraph? Has my right hon. Friend seen Mr. Freud's letter in the Sunday Telegraph on 22nd March, in which he said that the complaint was adjudicated upon without his knowledge, in his absence, without the possi- bility of representations being made at the hearing and with no right of appeal? While welcoming the extension of the powers of the Press Council, may I ask my right hon. Friend to look at this again with a view to formalising the position, otherwise journalists' professional reputations can be severely harmed by this form of Star Chamber procedure?

The Press Council has a well-established procedure for receiving complaints and calling for any oral evidence that it requires without legal representation. Generally speaking, the House has approved this form of Press Council—that is to say, a voluntary rather than a statutory council. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind, I am willing to forward to the Council any details which he may let me have.

Is it not the case that the House has never given any support to a procedure whereby a person against whom a complaint is made shall not be allowed to appear before the Press Council to put his case? The House of Commons would not tolerate that kind of procedure. It never occurred to anyone in this House that such a thing would arise. Is the right hon. Gentleman willing to say that, if there were any repetition of this kind of case, he would think it necessary to consider further legislation or other action?

The House discussed the general kind of Press Council it thought desirable and this was the general conclusion it reached. If there is a particular case of this kind, I will see that it is brought to the attention of the Council.

Will my right hon. Friend bring this matter to the attention of the very eminent Chairman of the Press Council, because I am sure that the Chairman would be very seized of these matters which are worrying the House?

Yes. I fully endorse that reference to the Chairman.

asked the Minister without Portfolio what services he provides for foreign scientists visiting Great Britain.

Services for scientists visiting this country are provided through the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the British Council and the Central Office of Information. They include the arrangement of consultations, tours and courses of study, and the provision of advice and assistance in many ways.

If such services are perhaps better provided by other Ministries, is not the right hon. Gentleman's own Ministry rather superfluous?

It depends really on the type of tour which is considered. It may be that the British Council can be of service for a certain kind of visit, or the Foreign Office or the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. My own functions are not called upon save in the sense of co-ordinating information which may be required.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the Railways Board not to sell any more of its railway houses.

No, Sir. I do not think that this would be appropriate.

Did not the old railway companies buy houses for perfectly good administrative reasons in order to facilitate the movement of personnel when they were promoted from one place to another?

It may well have been that the old private companies did this for good administrative reasons, but equally for good administrative reasons the Railways Board now wishes to get rid of some of its houses.

In some of the cases of proposals for sale, would not the sale have meant grave injustices to individual employees of the railways, and will not a general sale impede the process of promotion?

This is a matter which must be left to the commercial and managerial judgment of the Railways Board.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that there is no deliberate running down of the railways in a certain region by selling these properties?

Certainly I can, Sir.

asked the Minister of Transport what percentage increase has been made by the British Railways Board in the rents charged by the Board for houses in its possession which are let to railway personnel.

The British Railways Board tells us that the rents of railway-owned houses, where these are not subject to rent control, are fixed in the light of the levels of rent currently charged for comparable properties in each locality. No figure of the overall percentage increase in such rents over any period is available, and to obtain one would, the Board tells me, entail a disproportionate amount of work.

Does not the Minister agree that real hardship was caused to one of my constituents when his rent was raised by 70 per cent. the other day? Is that not a change in his conditions of employment made by the Railways Board?

Tenants of the Railways Board have the same protection as tenants of other landlords. It would be wrong to put the Railways Board into a different position.

Does it not alter the terms of employment when the rent is increased by 70 per cent.?

That is an entirely different question from the one on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the Railways Board not to lift the rails of any branch or main railway line until a comprehensive report about Great Britain's present and future transport needs has been presented to Parliament.

No, Sir.

Would the hon. Gentleman reconsider his reply, as the Conservative Party had no mandate at the last General Election to carry out this policy? As a comprehensive report has been called for, would it not be wiser to wait until it has been submitted to the House before these lines—very important lines in some instances—are lifted?

It may help the hon. Gentleman when I tell him that in six cases where my right hon. Friend has given consent to close the line he has asked the railways to inform him before the track is lifted. I think that is adequate protection.

Does that mean that the Minister will, if necessary, tell the railways that they must not lift the tracks if they think there is a possibility that in future the line may be needed?

I think that we should have to wait and see what the case was. What this does is to prevent the railways from doing it without informing my right hon. Friend, and then my right hon. Friend, in the particular circumstances of the case, could consider what, if anything, was the right thing to do.

Would my hon. Friend agree that the Government have always had a mandate to try to make the railways and the whole transport system pay, as is laid down in the Transport Acts, and if it is clearly proved beyond doubt that a branch line does not pay and will never pay, is it not sensible to sell the line?

That is what the Railways Board is trying to do.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will seek to amend the Transport Act, 1962, in such a way that Members of Parliament can obtain detailed information from the Railways Board for Parliamentary purposes.

No, Sir. I have no doubt that the Board already does all that can reasonably be expected of it to provide hon. Members with information they need for Parliamentary purposes.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Railways Board is not giving hon. Members information about finances which they have been asking for? I take it that hon. Members on both sides of the House have tried to obtain the information to which I refer—the overall takings at stations and goods depôts. As hon. Members cannot get this information, would the hon. Member look at this matter again, have a talk with the Chairman of the Railways Board, and report to the House?

This is a very difficult question because it runs into the problems of managerial competence. Perhaps I might remind the hon. Member what my right hon. Friend the then Leader of the House said on 31st July last year, that Ministers would consider sympathetically getting information on a national basis about nationalised industries. If it is general figures which the hon. Member wants and he would like to inform me about them, I will certainly do what I can to help, but if they are detailed figures about a particular case, that would be another matter.

Does this not make the Chairman of the Railways Board into a virtual dictator in that he is given power by the Minister to refuse to give Members of the House of Commons vital information? Will the hon. Gentleman consider this matter again in the light of the requirements of information that we vitally need, and report to the House?

If it is information on a detailed point, I am afraid that I cannot do anything, but if it is information on a general matter, then we can try to help.

asked the Minister of Transport when security wardens were introduced at main-line railway stations; how many there are; what is the total cost of this corps; and by what sum railway pilferage has been reduced since their introduction.

The British Railways Board tells me that it introduced security wardens at the principal main-line stations and parcels depôts in London and Manchester on 1st January, 1961. There are in all 83 wardens currently employed, at a total annual wages cost of £63,000. The Board does not consider it practicable to assess the amounts by which losses by pilferage have been reduced since their introduction.

Would my hon. Friend confirm, however, that this corps has given very valuable service, and although it may not be possible to assess the precise savings that it has effected, will he confirm that the service is very valuable and indicate whether the Board would consider extending it to other main-line stations?

I can certainly give an assurance that these security wardens have proved very valuable. They have released the police for other duties for which they are fully trained. As for their future, I will consult with the Railways Board about that.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) what action he proposes to take as a result of the report made to him following the Transport Users' Consultative Committee's hearing in Inverurie on 10th February, about the withdrawal of certain train services between Aberdeen, Inverurie, Pitmedden, Kinaldie and Kintore:

We are studying these reports and all other relevant factors in consultation with my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Scotland. I cannot anticipate the outcome.

Does not the Minister realise that it is very improper for him to answer these two Questions together, because the considerations affecting these two districts are quite distinct? Does the hon. Gentleman also realise that the loss and damage which these withdrawals are inflicting on trade, industry, commerce and employment in Aberdeen City and County is greatly enhanced by the secrecy with which these withdrawals are planned and carried out? The hon. Gentleman's Answer is a striking example of that.

The hon. and learned Gentleman is quite wrong, because there is no secrecy about it, nor have there been, any withdrawals. The Railways Board said that it wished to withdraw certain services, and there has been an inquiry before the Transport Users' Consultative Committee which has reported to my right hon. Friend, and my right hon. Friend, in discussion with other of his right hon. Friends, will shortly be coming to a conclusion on the matter.

Mr. Boyden.

On a point of order. Two Questions were answered together. Would you not allow me to put another supplementary question?

The supplementary arises out of one answer. We cannot go on with it.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) in view of the implications of the White Paper on the North-East that an increasing number of people will have to travel to work from South-West Durham to the growth zone to the east, what improvements in public transport he is sponsoring between Middleton-in-Teesdale, Barnard Castle and Newton Aycliffe and Darlington and between Witton Park, Bishop Auckland, Shildon, Darlington and Newton Aycliffe following the British Railways Board's proposals to eliminate all railway passenger services in this area and in view of the report which he has received from the Transport Users' Consultative Committee;

When my right hon. Friend considers railway passenger closure proposals he takes into account all relevant factors before he reaches his decision. These include any implications for travel to work or for tourists and holidaymakers.

Why does the Minister go on pondering this matter? In the case of the Middleton-Barnard Castle-Darlington line, is not he aware that the Transport Users' Consultative Committee said that severe hardship would be caused to a great variety of people, including workpeople and children, if the line was shut? Why does not he give a direction to British Railways to maintain the service? In the case of the second railway—Crook-Bishop Auckland-Darlington—is he aware that the Transport Users' Consultative Committee met, that quite inadequate proposals were made by the bus service, and that at the next meeting the bus proposals were still inadequate? Cannot he make a decision that both lines should be kept open?

The trouble is that hon. Members who have an interest in these matters always want their own cases considered first. These matters are far too important for me to give an off-the-cuff decision merely when the report of a consultative committee has been received—and in the case of the Crook line, no report has yet been received from the consultative committee.

Will my hon. Friend give a similar assurance in respect of freight services as has been given, in this Question and previous Questions, on passenger services? Surely there should be no closure of freight services until adequate alternative services are provided.

I am sure that my hon. Friend knows very well that the position is quite different. The Railways Board has complete freedom with regard to freight. It is only in respect of passenger closures that the consultative committee procedure is applicable.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at the first opportunity on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport if he has yet received the report of the Transport Users' Consultative Committee following the hearing at Whitley Bay on Thursday, 19th March in regard to the proposed closure of the Blyth and Tyne line.

No, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the need for a very early and favourable decision on this matter, in view of the number of industrialists seeking to move into the district affected by the proposed closure, and that such a decision will be beneficial to industrial development in the area?

I understand that the North-Eastern Area Transport Users' Consultative Committee is well aware of that, but this is not the only case that it has to deal with. Many of these cases are very complicated. However, I am sure that what the hon. Member has said will not be lost on the consultative committee.

Having seen the various proposals put forward, and the arguments on which Dr. Seething bases his proposals, will my hon. Friend see that alternative railways are available? Can he give a guarantee that where that argument is used it means that the railways will be available for ever? Otherwise it is quite a false basis on which to put forward such an argument.

It would be most unwise for me to undertake that anything would ever be there for ever. I could not give my hon. Friend that undertaking.

Then the argument is on a false basis.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will appoint a committee of independent experts to study what new financial structure may be required to improve standards of public transport in urban areas, in view of the findings of the Buchanan Committee.

No, Sir. We do not think such an inquiry is required at present. We are already considering, in consultation with the transport operators and the local authorities, ho best to improve the standards of public transport in urban areas.

As this is by common consent a very complicated problem and as there has been a great deal of discussion lately about pricing policy with regard to private transport, including by the Smeed Committee, does not the hon. Gentleman consider that a committee to look in detail and at length into the question of pricing policy might make recommendations which would be very useful guidance to local authorities in very large urban areas?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman when he says that this is a complicated matter, but we do not think that an inquiry of the nature which he has suggested is what is really needed. What is much more necessary at the moment is to try to get the operators to provide a more satisfactory service.

asked the Minister of Transport how many prosecutions were instituted in 1961, 1962 and 1963, respectively, against C licence holders for using their vehicles in a manner other than that permitted under the licensing regulations.

In the 12 months ending 30th September in each case, the licensing authorities reported 970, 1,228, and 757 prosecutions respectively, for breach of conditions of carriers' C licences.

Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell the House what proportion of these prosecutions relates to persistent offenders? Is he satisfied in particular, in view of the drop, as I understand it, in the last of these years, that a sufficient number of prosecutions is being taken against C licence holders who are attempting to provide tramp services with their vehicles contrary to their licences? Could he say also what powers are available to withdraw licences or fail to renew them if the conditions are not properly fulfilled?

I cannot answer the first of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary questions without notice. Whether we have a record as between persistent and repeated offences and first offences, I cannot say, but I will look into the matter. With regard to the last of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary questions, there are adequate powers for the licensing authorities to withdraw the licences of persistent offenders. With regard to enforcement, I do not think too much should be read into variations from one year to another. I do not think there is any particular significance in the drop between 1962 and 1963.

But these are prosecutions which were discovered by a very inadequate Supply of inspectors. Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say what the Department will do to increase the number of inspectors available to apprehend those concerned in what is known to be a very large malpractice at this moment? What is he going to do about it?

I would not entirely agree with the implication in that supplementary question. With regard to the number of inspectors I have little to add to the answers on that subject which I gave not long ago. However, as I indicated then, we hope to improve the methods by which these regulations are enforced rather than merely step up the numbers of inspectors.

Would not the hon. and gallant Gentleman agree that it is possible that licensing authorities may feel that the fact that the Geddes Committee is sitting exonerates them from some responsibility for enforcing existing licensing regulations, and would he make it clear to them that as long as the law remains, it ought to be enforced?

I do not think there is any question about our doing our utmost to ensure that the law is properly enforced without any prejudice to what may be found or recommended in due course by the Geddes Committee.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will move to amend Section 203 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, to provide that no person or body of persons carrying on motor vehicle insurance in Great Britain can be considered an authorised insurer under the Act if he or they refuse cover to a person on the grounds that such person is not of British extraction.

No motorist should have any difficulty in obtaining the minimum statutory insurance cover provided his record as a driver is a reasonable one. If my hon. and gallant Friend will let me have details of any cases he has in mind I would be glad to try to help.

May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that a constituent of mine has recently been refused cover by the Malvern Insurance Company Ltd., solely for the reason that he is of foreign extraction? As this man fought alongside us during the whole of the last war in the Polish Air Force, and has been a naturalised British subject for more than 10 years, does not my hon. and gallant Friend think that this action of the Malvern Insurance Company Ltd. is most unfair and grossly insulting? If so, will he look into this matter again?

I have seen the correspondence between my hon. and gallant Friend and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary. We would certainly strongly deprecate any discrimination solely on the ground that the applicant for insurance was not of British origin, but I think that we should wait to see what emerges from the inquiries which we will be glad to make if my hon. and gallant Friend can give us more details in addition to that which he has just given so that we may know to whom the inquiry should be addressed.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind that I have known the Northern Assurance Company Ltd. for many years and have never known it to indulge in practices of this kind? As motor insurance companies have lost many millions of £s over the last few years, it is only right to say that they are trying to make the good risks pay less, and the bad risks pay more, irrespective of race, colour or creed. That is the only commonsense way of dealing with motor insurance.

I appreciate what my hon. Friend says, but I would rather go no further until we have had an opportunity of studying the actual details of this case.

Does my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Tiley) realise that I referred to the Malvern Insurance Company Ltd. and not to the Northern Assurance Company?

My comments apply to the Malvern as well as to the Northern.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the London Transport Board to provide non-smoking accommodation on buses running between airports and air terminals.

No, Sir. The only buses which are run by the London Transport Board between an airport and an air terminal are those owned by British European Airways, and the provision of non-smoking accommodation on them is therefore a matter for British European Airways.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that I have tried to put a Question down to the Minister of Aviation because I thought that that was the case, and that I have so far failed? I shall communicate with B.E.A.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is yet able to estimate what the public response has been to his "Give way to the right" signs at selected roundabouts; and if he will make a statement.

It is too early yet to draw any firm conclusion from this experiment but preliminary indications are promising.

May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that many motorists are finding these signs a considerable asset at roundabouts, but that when one road tends significantly to be more of a major one than the other, they are ignoring them? Does my hon. and gallant Friend think that it is worth continuing with the experiment at that type of roundabout, and does he envisage in the long run having this as a permanent feature of the road traffic law?

I think that it is too early to answer my hon. Friend's supplementary questions. I think that we must see how the trials which it is planned to carry out at about 76 roundabouts work out. So far, signs have been erected at 41 of them.

Will the Minister say for how long this experiment is going on? Furthermore, does it not create confusion and misunderstanding when a regulation or practice of this kind is applied to some roundabouts and not to others? Where it does not apply, one gets a state of psychological warfare.

I do not know that I would agree with the hon. Gentleman about that. The notices when the "Give way to traffic from the right" rule is in force are very clear. They can be seen as one approaches, and if there is no notice at all, one goes on as before.

asked the Minister of Transport what further systems of tidal flow and other experiments in traffic engineering he is considering introducing in the west and east London areas with a view to casing traffic congestion on these approaches to London in advance of the computer-controlled traffic signals coming into operation.

We have announced proposals for further traffic schemes in the west and east London areas to ease traffic congestion. One of these is for a form of tidal flow on Hammersmith Bridge. Many other schemes are under consideration.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend convey to his right hon. Friend our thanks for the experiments that he has made with one-way streets, and so on, but also convey to his right hon. Friend the fact that appalling congestion occurs in the east of London? I refer to the road coming in from Chingford, where there are some ghastly intersections. Can something be done to improve the position?

I appreciate the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I will certainly investigate conditions on the road which he has mentioned. I should explain that one difficulty about tidal flow schemes of the kind that he has in mind is that they require roads with a width of not less than five lanes, and in London there are very few stretches of road as wide as that. Where there are, there are often fairly solid central reservations, and it is impossible for tidal flow schemes to be instituted until they have been removed.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will break down the figures, contained in the statement issued by his Department, that some 60 fatal accidents on the roads had occurred during the Easter holiday; and if he will in future authorise such statements to include at least the class of person involved, such as motorist, cyclist, pedestrian and, in the latter category, whether they are young, old or blind.

The provisional figures for fatal casualties which are announced over the holiday periods cannot, at the time, be broken down into categories. Fuller information is given at monthly intervals, and I shall be glad to send my hon. Friend the statement for March when it is published later this month.

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for that personal undertaking in regard to information being given to me. Does he appreciate, however, that the purpose of my putting down this Question was to enable the public generally to appreciate the dangers on the road and the need to do their best to avoid them?

I appreciate that. That is the reason why figures are issued at daily intervals during public holiday periods. But they give only a very rough indication, which often has to be changed a great deal when more accurate figures are announced later, and we think that it would be misleading to attempt to make the immediate release of information more selective, because we should then be dealing with much smaller numbers.

Can my hon. and gallant Friend say whether a fuller analysis is now being made of each serious accident which occurs, irrespective of the time of year when it occurred—holiday period or not?

That is another question.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the average number of road accident deaths and the average number of motor vehicles in use in the five-year periods 1930–34 inclusive and 1958–62, respectively.

The average annual number of deaths was 7,042 in the period 1930–34, and 6,615 in the period 1958–62. There was an average of 2·3 million motor vehicles in use in the first period and 8·8 million in the second.

Does not this show that progress is being made in the right direction and does it not reflect a great deal of credit, not only on motorists but on motor manufacturers, for their safety appliances, also on the medical services, and not least on my hon. and gallant Friend's Department for its road safety campaigns and also for providing a great many better roads?

I agree with my noble Friend, but it is fair to say that a number of factors have been at work. One is the better design of vehicles. It should also be remembered that pedestrian crossings, the 30 miles-an-hour speed limit in built-up areas and driving tests were all introduced in 1934 and 1935 and there was a sharp drop in the number of deaths. In 1952 zebra crossings were introduced and again the number of deaths showed a great drop.

While a number of organisations and different Governments have contributed to this satisfactory result, will the Parliamentary Secretary say that he will not be complacent about the present rate of road accidents?

I assure the right hon. Member that I shall not be complacent because, unfortunately, recently the trend has reversed and it is now on the upgrade again.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that under the existing law a motorist who is overcome by sleep so that he is unable properly to control his vehicle is committing an offence if he pulls in and rests until fully awake; and if he will introduce legislation to ensure that such action is not in future indictable.

No, Sir. Under the Motorways Traffic Regulations a driver may stop on the verge in certain circumstances, including accident, illness or other emergency, for as long as is necessary in those circumstances. We do not propose to amend the Regulations in this respect. If a driver begins to feel sleepy, this seldom indicates an emergency. He should open a window to let in some fresh air and either go to the next service area or leave the motorway at the next exit.

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for that Answer. Does not the law which he has described apply only to motorways and not to ordinary roads? Can my hon. and gallant Friend think of anything more asinine than a law which penalises a driver if he pulls in because he finds himself unable to go on driving, for whatever the cause?

That depends entirely on where the driver pulls in and how the car is parked when he stops. But the Regulations about not stopping on the verge, or on the hard shoulder as it is sometimes called, apply to motorways only. I hope that I am not misinforming the House, but I do not think that there is any regulation which prevents a driver from pulling up on to the grass verge on a road which is not a motorway, provided that his vehicle is clear of the roadway.

Can the Minister confirm that? I think that it will come as a surprise to the whole House if there is, according to the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden), a law which makes it an offence for a driver to pull into the verge in conditions where, obviously, in the interests of safety he ought to do so? Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman lock carefully into the matter and, if the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West is justified in what he has said, will he take some action about it? Is he aware that the Question applies to roads generally and not to motorways, and that his Answer seemed to apply to motorways?

The reason I applied it to motorways is that it is the Motorways Traffic Regulations which have been criticised on these grounds, because there is a definite prohibition from pulling on to the verge or the hard shoulder. I will pursue the matter in greater detail as the right hon. Gentleman asks. So far as I know, parking on an ordinary road becomes an offence only if an obstruction is created or if it is dangerous parking. I speak under correction, but I should have thought that a motor car parked completely clear of the roadway would not result in an offence being committed.

Except on a motorway or a clearway, can my hon. and gallant Friend give a single reason why a motorist, travelling on a fairly clear road, should not be able to pull up and, if necessary, go to sleep in daylight? Can there be any objection to that?

I can think of one or two reasons, but I do not think that they would arise from this Question.

Is the Minister aware that he should be devoting his attention to the question of those drivers of motor vehicles who are overcome by fatigue? Is he aware that there is increasing evidence that many vehicle drivers drive for excessive hours, sometimes as long as 17 hours, and cause danger on the road which results in many accidents? Is he aware that the other night there was a television programme which would have been edifying for the Minister?

We are aware of this problem, but that is a different question.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the London Transport Board to include in the information given at bus stops in London, now mostly limited to the route and the time of the last services, the frequency of the service during rush hours and in the middle of the day.

No, Sir. Matters of this kind fall clearly within the London Transport Board's responsibility for management. In fact, I am informed by the Board that it is providing information, including an indication of frequency, at all stops in its central bus operating area where time-tables are not provided, and that it has already done so over most of Central London.

Is my hon. Friend aware that when this is completed it will be very welcome? Is he aware that, with the deterioration of bus services and the great uncertainty which exists, it would be extremely convenient to arrive at a bus stop and know whether a bus was coming within five minutes, or within 25 minutes, which is not unusual at some periods during the day?

Is the Minister aware that unless priority is given to bus services in central London—which, so far as I know, would mean legislation being enacted—surely such information given at bus stops would be quite irrelevant? How can the buses arrive on time at a given spot when the traffic congestion is such that the vehicles cannot get through?

That is an entirely different question.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will state the total number of traffic examiners of the licensing authorities, the number of silent checks they have made in respect of goods vehicles over a recent representative period; and what is the proportion of checks to the approximate total goods vehicle journeys over the same period.

There are about 140 examiners on enforcement work at any one time. Accurate figures of silent checks are not available but the number of vehicles checked is of the order of 100,000 a year. This gives a ratio of one check per 6,000 vehicle-journeys but the odds that an offender will be caught are for various reasons a good deal shorter than this.

Does not it occur to the Minister that the extent of enforcement is infinitesimal and that it is quite clear that some further administrative action is necessary in the light of what is now called the "cowboy faction" on the periphery of road transport? Will he consider examining the current log books of operators over a more recent period—because this is the way in which, as those with knowledge are aware, facts may be ascertained on which action can be taken—rather than concentrating on alleged silent checks?

I will consider what the hon. Member has said. The number of examiners has kept pace with the increase in the number of vehicles.

asked the Minister of Transport what research is being undertaken into the advantages of substituting sliding doors for opening doors on the off side of road vehicles.

We have not asked for research work to be done on sliding doors as such. The manufacturers, however, are always looking for developments in bodywork design generally that would improve convenience and safety. Sliding doors are already used for several types of vehicle, when they are specially suitable.

Surely the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of the terrible hazard to cyclists and motor cyclists presented by the opening outwards of doors of road vehicles? This is clearly a desirable improvement. Will the Minister say to his Road Research Laboratory, "This is something which is desirable. Will you sort out the technical details and let the Department know when it can be done"?

The trouble is that anything which is an advantage often has a disadvantage. Although the hon. Member has pointed out the advantages, there are disadvantages. If there is an accident the doors are likely to jam and it is then more difficult for passengers to get out of a car than if it has the normal type of doors. It is also very difficult when there are sliding doors to have two doors on the same side of the car, as one has in the normal car. There are difficulties as well as advantages.

asked the Minister of Transport what research is being carried out on running buses on propane gas; and whether, in the interest of lessened noise and lessened exhaust fumes, he will encourage the use of such gas.

It is known that in the North-East it is planned to operate a bus on propane gas, but it is too early to say whether or not the use of this type of fuel should be encouraged generally for this purpose.

Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that we seem to be on the edge of a break-through in the use of propane gas in diesel engines, and that if this were done there would be no diesel fumes, much less noise and in an urban area where buses are run near their bases, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not put on a large tax, they would be economical? Therefore, should not this research be encouraged in urban areas such as London and other big centres?

On the question of fumes, comparative tests have shown that the proportion of carbon monoxide emitted from an ordinary diesel engine is only a fraction of that emitted from an ordinary petrol or propane engine. This matter requires more study before we could agree with my hon. Friend's conclusions. We are aware that propane gas, so long as it remains tax-free, could offer an economic advantage, but the total quantities of propane gas available should also be considered. These are matters for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Power.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend agree that no smoke comes out of the diesel engine as it does when a vehicle is using ordinary derv?

asked the Minister of Transport, what further steps he will take to publicise the advisability of using headlights in motor vehicles in conditions of daytime fog.

Advice that headlamps should be used in condi- tion of daylight fog is given in the Highway Code, and by broadcasting and television services whenever the weather report forecasts such conditions. That advice is the subject of a short film made recently for television and will be included in a booklet on motorway driving now being prepared. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents gives the same advice when appropriate.

Would not my hon. and gallant Friend agree that at present about nine out of ten motorists go on using sidelights in day-time fog and that is useless as the lights are seldom more visible than the vehicle itself?

We agree about that. That is why we are doing our best to publicise the need to use headlights. The propaganda will be stepped up when the fog season again approaches.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the A.635 and A.638 link major export industries in the West Riding with the A.1; and if he will state his plans for their early improvement.

A.635 is a classified road for which the local highway authorities are responsible. An improvement scheme costing £330,000, for which we are making grant, is in progress now in Barnsley.

I am grateful for that information, but may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that these schemes deserve higher priorities because the stretches of road to which he referred are so inferior as to constitute a considerable tax on the industrial transport that uses them? Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman further aware that this cost may now be crucial to the export performance of many wool textile firms in the West Riding in view of the increasing competition which they face?

We are aware of the importance of these roads, and we are aware of the importance of getting on as quickly as we can, but there are a large number of competing schemes and we do our best to get them in the right order of priority.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects that the discussions now proceeding between his Department and the Worcestershire County Council surveyor as to the route to be followed by the proposed Evesham by-pass will be brought to a conclusion, so that the draft town map of Evesham can be got ready for public inspection.

As a result of the discussions with Worcestershire County Council, the county surveyor is now making further investigations into the most suitable line for the by-pass. Until we receive his report I am unable to say when a decision will be made.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is now nearly a year and a half since the draft town map was shown to the borough council, and that continued delay in passing the proposals backwards and forwards between his Ministry and the Worcestershire County Council is causing grave uncertainty to the traders, developers and general citizens of the Borough of Evesham? Will he expedite this matter, and exercise his power of decision so as to get on with the work and relieve the uncertainty?

I understand everything that my hon. Friend has said. In my Answer I said that the county surveyor is undertaking further investigations. Until we get the result of these investigations it is impossible to decide what the lines will be. As this will be a very important decision, it is wise to make certain that it is right when we make it.

asked the Minister of Transport when the A.184 road from Sunderland to Newcastle will be improved.

The dualling of the 2½ miles section from Gateshead to Heworth has been completed. Work on the further 1½ miles eastwards to White Mare Pool should start next year. We hope that within the next four or five years work will start on the remaining 1½ miles to the proposed Sunderland by-pass, and also on the by-pass itself, which will be the main distributor for traffic to the Sunderland radial roads.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the earlier part of his Answer refers to parts of the road that no longer matter, because they are quite good already? Is he further aware, however, that the second part of the road—from White Mare Pool on to Sunderland—is in urgent need of improvement, more particularly because it is alleged to cross a level crossing which in fact is the roughest thing between here and Barwick?

I will bear that point in mind.

asked the Minister of Transport at what point construction of the first stretch of the Lancashire and Yorkshire motorway will commence; and when this construction will start.

It is too early to say. It is planned to start major earthworks on a section in the Pennines in the spring of 1966, but progress elsewhere will depend on completion of the statutory processes and availability of funds.

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that the roads over the Pennines are inadequate and dangerous, especially in the winter months? Will he do something to make certain that they are made safe? Does he realise that over a period of years this country has spent less of its gross national product on roads than any other country in Europe?

I was not aware of the latter fact and I do not think that I should accept it without further investigation. As I think the hon. Gentleman will know, this motorway is included in the thousand miles planned for completion by the early 1970s. It will be a very costly project—over £50 million—and the money has to be found from available resources. The statutory processes which include fixing the line of junctions, the treatment of side roads and the acquisition of land, must be completed.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that if he reads the publication issued by the Roads Campaign Council he will find that the figures given there indicate that out of about six countries, this country was the lowest in respect of the proportion of the gross national product spent on roads? Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that more money must be spent on roads in order that the dangers may be removed as soon as possible?

I do not wish to be drawn into a debate at Question Time, but my experience is that statistics provided by pressure groups are often capable of more than one interpretation.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement on the Thorne by-pass scheme near Doncaster.

There is little I can add at this stage to he replies given to the hon. Member on 12th February and 8th April. We are considering the design of the scheme and still aim to complete the further statutory processes and to acquire the land so that work can start in a year or two.

Is the Minister aware that there is a rumour in the district that the line of the by-pass has been agreed and laid down. Why, then, is there further delay in getting on with this very urgent and necessary job?

An Order under Section 9 of the Highways Act, 1959, would be necessary to enable my right hon. Friend to make alterations to side roads affected by the line of the by-pass. A compulsory purchase order would be needed to acquire the necessary land.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say when he thinks that the work on this road will actually commence?

The construction work which, incidentally, will include seven bridges, will take about three years. We expect the by-pass to be in use within five years.

asked the Minister of Transport which design he has chosen for the new Calder Bridge, near Wakefield.

No decision has yet been reached.

Can the hon. Gentleman inform the House whether the situation with regard to this bridge has been complicated by the fact that the West Riding County Council has submitted its own design for the bridge, despite the fact that the county surveyor of the West Riding was on the panel of experts which selected the previous unsuitable bridges and recommended an award of public money for these designs?

I do not think that that will affect the decision of my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to expedite the construction of the Keynsham by-pass in north Somerset.

As my hon. Friend knows, we are hoping to let the contract for this scheme shortly.

I am sorry, but this is most unsatisfactory. Is not my hon. and gallant Friend aware that, if the Minister were sitting anywhere but in the place he occupies, he would be the first to scoff at this ridiculously leisurely programme for something which is urgently needed? Will my hon. and gallant Friend tell him to take the advice given by a more eminent person than myself and take his right hon. finger out?

I have studied the correspondence between my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend on this matter and we think that my hon. Friend under-estimates the difficulties. The scheme will entail the construction of a pedestrian underpass, four bridges, three under and one over, of 150 ft., and an exceptional amount of rock excavation. It will also include the construction of a long embankment which must be left for a considerable time for settlement to take place before the carriageway can be laid.

asked the Minister of Transport in view of local concern in the Borough of Leyton, what revision of plans has taken place in respect of the Eastern Avenue extension through that borough and of other projects originally designed to ease traffic congestion; and what is the approximate timetable of the reconstruction.

Planned improvements, including the Eastern Avenue Extension, will provide effective relief from traffic congestion in Leyton. Traffic management measures are also under consideration.

While thanking the hon. and gallant Member for that reply, may I ask if he appreciates that the congestion, particularly in Leyton, will become steadily greater and more severe as the months go by? Is he aware that uncertainty as to whether there is to be drastic reconstruction in the whole area is causing great concern? Will he give more precise information about when building projects are likely to be fulfilled?

I am afraid that I cannot do that. My right hon. Friend will make an announcement as soon as possible on the schemes selected for the 1968–69 extension of the roads programme, but I cannot at this moment say what they will be.

asked the Minister of Transport what negotiations have now taken place between his Department and the ports of Bristol and Newport, arising out of the Rochdale Report; and if he will give an assurance that no changes in the function of these two ports will take place until these negotiations are completed.

The Answer to the first part of the Question is "None, Sir"; such discussions would be premature before we receive the views of the National Ports Council on the issues involved.

May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that for more than a century the port of Bristol has been owned and controlled by the local authority? It is the only municipally-owned port in the country, and the local authority is therefore very much concerned about the future of the port. The suggestion in the Rochdale Committee's Report is that it should merge with Newport. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give an assurance that the Advisory Committee to be set up by the Rochdale Committee will fully consult both Bristol and Newport before any definite action is taken on this matter?

I understand—in fact I have no doubt—that the Council is in touch on these matters both with the Port of Bristol Authority and with the British Transport Docks Board, which is the docks authority for Newport. I think that it would be premature to say more until we receive the Report of the Council, but I hope that it will not be too long before we are in a position to make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that a large number of deck apprentices fail to complete their training because of the lack of facilities for promotion; and if he will introduce legislation to provide educational opportunities for them to link the practical side of their training with an academic nautical course.

I understand that there are good opportunities for the promotion of deck officers in the Merchant Navy, and that the wastage during training is not unduly high. However, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport are discussing with shipowners, the officers' associations and the navigation schools the possibility of providing academic qualifications which would enable deck apprentices to attain a higher standard of education. Legislation would not be necessary.

Is the Minister aware that I am informed that half the young men who enter this industry as apprentices leave it after four years because there is no system of promotion and because the pay is not good? Can he do something to encourage men to enter this important industry, upon which we depend so much?

My information differs from that of the hon. Gentleman's. Mine is that the wastage is about 20 per cent., and that most of it occurs during the first two years of apprentices' time. No particular cause stands out, but I suppose that the short answer is seasickness and girls—although the two are not necessarily in order of importance.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the information which he has given to my hon. Friend will be very welcome, because although some shipping companies provide this form of training, there are many ship- owners who do not? While I agree that registration is unnecessary, perhaps, in addition to what the Minister has stated is the intention of the Government, would they consult the Shipping Federation, because there is a great danger that deckhands will be in short supply in future years?

I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has to say about the advantage of arranging for a higher standard of education. We are in consultation with the various bodies concerned and perhaps I may say that the proposals recently made by the Merchant Navy and Airline Pilots Association have proved a most valuable contribution.