asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what research studies have been made by his Department into the techniques of intensive animal husbandry.

Responsibility for research on agricul- tural problems lies in the main with the Agricultural Research Council and not with my Department. The activities of my Department in this field are concerned with experiments at the experimental husbandry farms and some surveys, mainly by the National Agricultural Advisory Service.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that producers complain that they have to go abroad to obtain the latest information, generally to the Netherlands or France? Will he do everything he can to influence these bodies to make as widely available as possible the result of their discoveries and researches?

I think they will find that there is a good deal of information available through N.A.A.S. and from our experimental husbandry farms. If my hon. Friend has a specific point in mind, I shall be grateful if she will draw it to my attention.

Can the Minister say whether his experiments have shown that these methods have an effect upon taste and also upon the health of the persons eating the beasts or poultry?

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what shares of Allied Ironfounders Limited he holds or has recently held in his official capacity on trust for universities or colleges; what precautions he takes to ensure that moneys held by him on trust for public or charitable purposes are not invested in companies which make subscriptions or donations to a political party or for party political objects; and whether it is his practice as a trustee for such purposes to buy or keep the shares of a company which to his knowledge makes such subscriptions or donations.

So far as shares held for universities and colleges are concerned, I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 27th April. So far as concerns the comparatively small amounts I hold as a trustee or on behalf of other trusts, the considerations that weigh with me are the soundness of the stock and level of the return.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the stock is sound when the business of the company is to make baths and cookers and it wastes shareholders' money in party political contributions?

In examining this, the criteria by which shares are thought to be suitable to be held as trustee stock are the level of return on the investment and the economic viability of the company concerned, not the political activities of the companies in which stocks are held.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the forecast annual decline in beef imports from the Argentine to little or nothing within a decade, he will take steps to encourage home and commonwealth suppliers to fill the gap.

The Argentine Secretary of State for Agriculture has said, I understand, that if Argentine producers did not increase the cattle population, then exports would fall. The Argentine Government, however, have not given Her Majesty's Government any long-term forecast of such a fall. Home producers have already been encouraged by Price Review determinations in recent years. There are at present no restrictions on imports from Commonwealth countries and they are fully aware of the requirements of our market.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in view of present conditions, this is not the time to introduce the standard quantity concept for beef? Will he further agree that, instead of introducing what might be a curb on home production, just the opposite, a stimulant, should now be applied?

We have given two increases. The first was in 1961 when we gave a 10s. a cwt. increase, and the second in this Review of 3s. a cwt.—quite apart from the alteration upwards in the calf subsidies which happens over the years. In considering the standard quantity, what we have to do, as a great trading nation with obligations to our consumers, our farmers and people overseas, is to strike the right balance, as the 1947 Act recognised that any Government must do, between home production and supplies from overseas, including the Commonwealth. My hon. Friend knows that there is no question of introducing standard quantities during the current agricultural year.

In view of the importance of this matter to home prices and the effect which it has had on the home production of meat, why is it that the Minister did not understand that this long- term trend with the Argentine would happen? Surely we have an agricultural attaché there? Was information forthcoming from him? Or have we no agricultural attaché there?

We are in the very closest contact with both the Argentine Government and the Meat Board in the Argentine. There is no lack of communication between us. There is a shortage this year compared with last year, when they sent a great deal more than the market could take at an economic price. There are bound to be fluctuations in a commodity such as beef, of which only a very tiny proportion of the total production goes into the world trade. A few thousand tons one way or the other can make all the difference and as a consequence it is inevitable that there can be considerable variations from one year to another.

In laying his long-term plans for future arrangements with other countries, will my right hon. Friend be a little careful not to take too much notice of these forecasts, because when countries forecast that supplies will dry up it very often leads to events which prove to be in exactly the opposite direction?

Yes. The difficulty of reconciling some of the forecasts which were put forward in the talks with what we thought to be the probable position was one of the features which led to arrangements not being finally arrived at.

May I press the Minister on the position of an attaché? Have we an attaché? On a previous occasion I pressed the Minister about the importance of having information supplied to him by our attachés in different countries. Have we one in the Argentine?

We have veterinary officers there, but not attachés.

It is not good enough.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many vaccinations with strain 19 were given in the last 12 months compared with the previous three years, respectively.

As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission circulate a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that we can be satisfied only when we have 100 per cent. inoculated with strain 19? Ought we not to consider working towards these lines, as they are now doing in Southern Ireland?

I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that 100 per cent. vaccination is a most estimable objective to attain, if we can. We are making progress towards this objective, but we have a long way to go.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when it is intended to introduce a programme to eliminate brucellosis; what estimate he has made of the cost; and how many years there would be before the country was free from infection.

I cannot at present estimate accurately how much time or money it would take to eradicate this disease. A survey of brucellosis in dairy herds has been carried out, and will be published by the Autumn. I intend to review this question, including the veterinary manpower available and the likely cost, when I have received this report.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would he consider starting an eradication programme on a regional basis, as we did with T.B., because I think that we are getting very much left behind in this and that we should start an eradication scheme as soon as possible?

When we see the whole picture in this country, which we shall be able to do from the survey which is being carried out, we can decide whether we should proceed on a national basis or region by region.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that brucellosis eradication is being given at least the same priority now as it was a few years ago, not least because there is in this a hazard to human health as well as to animal health?

Yes, but the incidence which we think we shall find from the survey, coupled with the fact that over 96 per cent. of our milk is pasteurised, is a very different situation on both counts from that which exists in many countries which put more effort into the eradication of brucellosis. In recent years we have concentrated the efforts of our veterinary staff on many things—on tuberculosis, on fowl pest and on swine fever. We have mounted an all-out attack on these diseases. I can assure my hon. Friend that what we are doing in regard to brucellosis will be kept up until we take a decision on the major point.

I beg to give notice that, owing to the importance of this matter, I shall raise it on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many factory farms he has visited; if he is satisfied with the conditions under which animals are reared in them for table use; and if the food produced by these methods has the nutritional value of that grown in the normal way.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into cruelty to birds and animals resulting from intensive methods of animal farming, and to report on the nutritive value of food produced under these conditions.

I have visited a number of farms where intensive systems of husbandry were practised. In the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) on 20th April, I announced the setting up of a Technical Committee, which is more appropriate than a Royal Commission to this type of inquiry. Such work as has been done in this country has revealed no evidence to suggest that intensive methods of rearing reduce the nutritional value of the product.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a growing feeling in the country that factory farming aborts the God-given process of photosynthesis by supplying animals with drugs which fatten them and at the same time could render man less responsive to those drugs in his hour of need? The right hon. Gentleman is doing this in order to produce low quality meat and big profits.

I know that the hon. Gentleman holds this view. All I can say is that the researches which have been carried out hitherto do not lend support to what he has said.

Will the terms of reference of the right hon. Gentleman's Committee include the allegations of cruelty to animals which are made in Ruth Harrison's book, "Animal Machines", and will he very carefully consider whether callousness towards animal cruelty may not lead to indifference towards human cruelty?

The object of the Committee will be to advise me whether certain standards for animal husbandry should be laid down. The terms of reference are very wide. This is not a question of taking allegations of any particular type of cruelty by any particular person; the Committee's job will be to advise me in the broadest sense as to whether it is necessary to lay down standards of animal husbandry for intensive livestock production.

I recognise that there may be dangers and cruelty involved in keeping animals in too close quarters, but will my right hon. Friend discourage the use of the term "factory farm", because, so far as I know, there is no definition of it and often an animal kept in a small, warm, well-bedded quarters can be a lot more healthy and health-giving than one kept out on an open moor?

I have absolutely no doubt at all that the systems under which our animals are kept are such that the animals can thrive, and they would not thrive if they were suffering. If they did not thrive, there would be no profitability in the operation. On the other hand, in view of the rapid growth, not of factory farming—I agree with my hon. Friend that we do not quite know what the interpretation given to the term "factory farming" by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) would be—but of intensive livestock production covering a broad field, I think that it is time to consider whether it is necessary to lay down standards.

In view of the importance of this matter, will the Minister say when the Technical Committee will submit its report to him and when the House will be informed of its findings?

No, I cannot do that at this moment. I hope to announce very shortly the names of the members of the Committee.

Although I recognise and welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is taking very short steps towards the point of view that I enunciated, may I ask him if he realises that the Technical Committee is quite insufficient in this case, because there is the human aspect, which might be obscured in these investigations? Would the right hon. Gentleman consider widening the Committee a little to incorporate in its membership members of the community, and Members of the House if necessary, who are interested in this problem?

When I announce the membership of the Committee, I believe that the House will feel that it is a sensible membership.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take the steps necessary to ensure that food produced at factory farms is so designated when exposed for sale in shops.

No, Sir.

I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman is now going backwards. Does not he remember the time when shop windows contained such notices as "Scotch fed" and "prime cuts"? We designated food because we were proud of its origin. Is the refusal to designate food from factory farms due to the fact that we do not like the public to know the origin of this type of food?

No. First, I think that the hon. Gentleman would find it very difficult to write an interpretation from a legislative point of view of what a factory farm is. Secondly and more importantly, the studies and research which have been done so far do not lead us to believe that there is any difference in the nutritive value of the food produced under different systems which would warrant us bringing in the very complicated arrangements for which the hon. Gentleman asks.

But surely people have a right to know what they are buying and eating. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a growing consumer demand for this type of designation? Will he look at the matter again, study the problems involved and report back to the House?

No, Sir. I must tell the hon. Lady that from the studies which have already taken place there is no evidence to show the difference between the nutritive values of food produced under different conditions which would warrant such a proposition.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied that he is acquiring enough land to support the forestry programme outlined in his statement on 24th July, 1963; to what extent progress is now being made towards solving the problems of conflicting interests for land use such as that between forestry and sheep farming; and if he will make a statement.

I consider the Forestry Commission should be able to acquire enough land to carry out its programme. At the end of 1963 the reserve of plantable land was about 300,000 acres. Relations with the farming community have much improved over the last few years, though there are bound to be occasional sources of friction. Land to be purchased by the Commission is always cleared by the Agricultural Departments before acquisition, and the interests of hill farming in general are taken into account.

Whilst thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether he remembers that in his statement in July last year he gave a programme for 1964–73 in which he estimated, as we understand from the technical journals and from the Ministry, that we would need to acquire 80,000 acres of land per annum to meet this programme? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to my information, we are not meeting it? Will the right hon. Gentleman encourage more of this development which has been encouraged in the past? Will he consider the imaginative idea of helping local authorities in industrial areas to plant on some of the old pit sites and to use soil from the great road-making areas like the M.1 and M.6 to cover the pit sites? Will the right hon. Gentleman also, as we on this side of the House did when we were in power, give grants to private owners to make this use of their land?

I announced for the decade 1964–73 that the Forestry Commission will aim at planting a further 450,000 acres, but this does not mean over ten years an annual acquisition of 80,000 acres a year. If acquisitions continue at their present rate, coupled with the reserve of 300,000 acres, which I agree are not in the best areas and would not all come into this decade, I think that we should have enough land to carry out that programme. As for the hon. Member's detailed question about planting for specific purposes in specific areas, I will look at what he has said, and if he likes to give me more details and develop this thought I will consider it.

Is it not a fact that the relationship between the Forestry Commission and sheep-raising interests is now very much better than it used to be?

Yes, Sir. I believe this to be so. We have, of course, noted this and hope it will continue to do so to the greatest extent possible.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what efforts he is making to draw public attention to the Forestry Exhibition on 17th and 18th June at Blackbushe, near Camberley, in view of the fact that this is the first exhibition of its kind to be held in Great Britain since 1888.

The Forestry Commission has been in touch with national organisations concerned with forestry, land use, amenity and the countryside who have arranged to publicise the exhibition among their members; posters and leaflets have been widely distributed, and Press and B.B.C. announcements are being made. The co-operation of bodies who might bring it to the attention of overseas visitors is also being sought.

I am sure that both sides of the House are grateful to the Government for encouraging this exhibition. Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that it is 80 years since we had such an exhibition? Will he see that the maximum publicity is given to it and suggest that those in the House who are interested in forestry should visit this shop-window of forestry, an industry which Britain really needs in order to catch up with the deforestation of the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century?

Yes, Sir, and I hope that as many visitors as possible will see the exhibition.

Will the exhibition include information for the public about access to forestry land—having due regard to fire risks—bearing in mind that there has been criticism recently of the unduly restrictive attitude towards the public obtaining such access?

I hope that the Forestry Commission will note what the hon. Member has said.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he is taking on the complaint sent to him on 24th March by Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation regarding the low meat content of sauages on sale in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

A letter was sent to the corporation on 2nd April drawing its attention to the action taken by other food and drugs authorities in similar circumstances.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this sausage had a meat content of only 46 per cent.? Does he think that good enough? Does the hon. Gentleman not think the time has come when a minimum meat content should be laid down or that at any rate the package should show exactly what it contains so that people may know what they are eating? If I send the hon. Gentleman a sausage and another to his right hon. Friend, will he think about it?

I refer the hon. Member to the original Answer. There have been successful prosecutions under the Food and Drugs Act, 1955, when analysis has shown the meat content of pork and beef sausages to be less than 65 per cent. and 50 per cent., respectively. The authorities have instituted prosecutions on that basis. There have been eight successful prosecutions in respect of pork sausages and four in respect of beef sausages. As the hon. Member will know, there are difficulties in devising standards to lay down minimum contents for pork and beef sausages.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the increased price, he will take steps to enable old-age pensioners to receive one pint of milk per day at a reduced rate.

No, Sir. The Government considers that the right way to help pensioners is by cash payments, rather than by benefits in kind, and the pension and assistance improvements made last May took these payments to a higher real value than ever before.

Since milk is such an easy and effective means of alleviating malnutrition from which many elderly people suffer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman why he will not do this? Is he aware that where charitable organisations have issued milk free at Christmas it has been received with quite pathetic gratitude by many old people? Why should they not have it every day all the year round at 2½d. a pint as long as the present pension remains inadequate?

The hon. Lady talks about the present pension being inadequate. I should not like to trespass on the field of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, but I believe that the rises given over the last decade or so in retirement pensions have more than taken account of any rise in the cost of living. As to the inadequacy of the food, I notice that a recent publication by an independent research worker said that there was a general rise in the diet of pensioners between 1950 and 1960.

Is the right hon. Gentleman telling us that there is no need to help these old-age pensioners because they are extremely well-off and their diet is adequate? Does not that show the right hon. Gentleman's complete misunderstanding of how far 57s. 6d. a week will go, and is it not another example of one Ministry refusing to face the situation when the price of a commodity such as milk goes up?

Far from saying that nothing needs to be done, I am saying that this Government have done a lot over the years and prefer to do it by cash payment rather than by benefits in kind.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now make a statement on the welfare of livestock exported for slaughter.

Yes, Sir. Undoubtedly the best way, from all points of view, of exporting meat is in carcase form; and the trend from live exports towards this is what the Government hope to see develop as far as possible and as soon as possible.

Will my right hon. Friend accept my grateful thanks for this great move forward to ensure the welfare of livestock destined for slaughter? Will he also make it quite clear that this procedure will absolutely prevent any further export of sheep that might eventually find their way to Algeria for ritual slaughter, which was the original cause of the outcry over the whole of this business?

As to the assurances which we are seeking, they are, firstly, that the animals will be slaughtered within 100 kilometres from the point of landing; secondly, that they must not be re-exported; thirdly, that they will be suitably penned, fed and watered while awaiting slaughter; and fourthly, that they will be slaughtered by electric stunning or by captive bolt pistol. We shall be prepared to allow the export of animals to any country that will give us these assurances.

Will the right hon. Gentleman discourage the export of beef from this country, in view of the fact that supplies here are scarce and expensive and also that farmers are being paid a subsidy for beef by the taxpayer?

Our arrangements are that we have a free market for foodstuffs, and meat in particular, which, by and large, has enormous advantages for this country, and we would not lightly tamper with the existence of that free market which involves a good deal of importation and some exportation.

What about the subsidies?

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that, while this arrangement may be greatly welcomed by English pigs and sheep, it will not be much comfort to pigs and sheep coming from Southern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend see that this matter is raised in the Council of Europe so that we can get some standardisation?

We are at the moment proceeding in the Council of Europe to try to get internationally-agreed arrangements.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, if he will make a statement on the estimated quantities of meat imports from traditional suppliers for the period June, 1964, to December, 1964.

It is difficult to estimate with any precision what supplies will be, and I am not in any case in a position to give figures for individual countries. But comparing the second half of 1964 with the first, I would expect no further fall in total imports of fresh and chilled beef; a rise in frozen beef; a considerable fall in the lamb where we depend far less on imports in the second half of the year; and little change in our relatively insignificant imports of pork. Most of these imports are likely to come from the same countries as in recent years, though not necessarily in the same proportions.

In view of a previous answer relating to obtaining information through agricultural attachés, may I ask whether it is not rather absurd that this information should be obtained from veterinary officers, who deal with animal disease and have no influence on commercial policy? Can the Minister say what is the position of attachés in the various countries? If the right hon. Gentleman is to be more precise about his information he must have attachés in our main supply countries.

What the hon. Gentleman should say, and what in justice I would accept, is that we should be satisfied that we are getting the information we require. Whether this involves the need for an agricultural attaché in a particular country surely depends upon the decision of the Government. What is essential is that we should get the information. We are getting this information. Further, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the Governments of our major overseas meat-supply countries—the Argentine, Australia, the Irish Republic, New Zealand, Uruguay and Yugoslavia—to whom, as I said on 20th February, we were making representations to this effect, have agreed that their representatives should participate with the United Kingdom officials in a meat study group. This group will review regularly the United Kingdom market situation with reference to levels of imports and will discuss the implications relating thereto.

Is it a fact that what the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) said has little bearing upon the Argentine? Does my right hon. Friend not agree that it is particularly important that we should have veterinary officers in the Argentine because of the great problem which exists with regard to foot-and-mouth disease? Is it not a fact that very often it is far more important to have a veterinary person there than to have someone who calls himself an agricultural attaché?

We not only get our advice through veterinary officers but from our embassy and through our contacts with the Argentine Meat Board.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that if we are to have a commercial assessment we must have commercial representatives, and that in the sphere of meat imports the man to do it is the agricultural attaché? Is it not alarming that we have no attaché in the Argentine?

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when Her Majesty's Government will announce their conclusions on the Verdon-Smith Report on the meat industry.

I will make a statement on the Government's views as soon as possible.

When is "as soon as possible"? Is it after the election or when? The Minister has to be prodded over and over again on this matter.

I do not accept that Ministers have to be prodded over and over again.

The right hon. Gentleman has to be prodded.

I have a rooted objection to being prodded. This Committee reported on a subject which covers a very wide field indeed. I told the House—and I think the hon. Gentleman approved at the time, if I remember rightly—that we asked the interested parties, which number some 100 or more organisations, to give their views on the suggestions made in the report by the end of April. A number of these organisations have asked for a little more time before sending in their observations. I think the hon. Gentleman will also agree that, when making major decisions on these important matters, it is necessary that we should be sure that we have all the views of the interests concerned before we reach conclusions. As soon as I have obtained all these views the Government will study them and will make a report.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the proposals to curtail the train services for the distribution of fish and the economic repercussions this would have on the industry; and what representations he has made on the matter.

I understand that the Railways Board has put forward some proposals to the trade, and these are still under discussion. I have no powers to intervene.

Does the right hon. Gentleman understand that the Railways Board has also announced the date for the cessation of these services, and that without these services there cannot be an adequate distribution of fish through the wholesale merchants association? This will mean economic disaster for this sector of the industry. Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, use his influence with the Minister of Transport to see that these services are not cut off until consultations take place and an alternative form of delivery is formulated by the people concerned?

My information is not the same as the hon. Gentleman's, namely, that a date has been definitely fixed at which services will be brought to an end. My information is that there have been preliminary discussions, that a meeting was held in April between representatives of the railways and the trade, and that these consultations are continuing. I do not believe that any firm date has been announced; in fact, I am sure that no firm date has been announced. As to the second part of the supplementary question, of course my right hon. Friend and I will pay attention to what, within our remit, we should do, but not to other matters which are purely the affair of the Railways Board.

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that he is not interested in the future of the fishing industry and that he is leaving it entirely to the Ministry of Transport and the Railways Board to close down the transport system which supplies fish for which he is responsible to the country? Surely his Department should be represented at those discussions?

I did not say that; neither did I infer it, and the hon. Gentleman knows it not to be so.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are his plans to ensure that an adequate supply of milk will be produced for the rest of this year.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) on 5th May last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the President of the National Dairymen's Association stated on 4th May that if the weather this summer is unkind to us there will be a shortage of milk during the autumn? In so far as his plans do not cope with any bad weather which may be experienced during the summer and autumn, will he look at this problem?

We had extremely bad weather in 1963–64 and, despite that, the monthly quantity of milk going to manufacture never fell below 34 million gallons or 26 per cent. of liquid sales. I do not think there is any justification for thinking that there will be a shortage of liquid milk.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that to keep on raising alarms about a possible shortage of milk in this country does no service whatever, particularly when one bears in mind the very large margin in the month last year when supplies dropped to their lowest?

I agree that there are ample supplies, and I have seen no figures which lead me to believe that there is substance in these alarms.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will detail the steps he is taking this year, in support of the agricultural industry, to promote interest in the agricultural apprentice scheme, in order to reverse the trend apparent last year when there was a drop of about 10 per cent. in the number of new apprentices; and what steps he is now taking to see that the provisions of the Industrial Training Act are applied to agriculture.

Although there was a small drop last summer in the number of new entrants to the agricultural apprenticeship scheme, the full twelve-month figures show a small increase in 1963 over the previous year. My Department continues to give the scheme active support, particularly by making it known to suitable farmers and farm workers. In reply to the second part of the Question, the hon. Member will be aware that, under the Industrial Training Act, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is responsible for establishing industrial training boards, and I understand that there have been discussions with the National Farmers' Union for England and Wales on the subject of a training board for agriculture.

But are the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend playing no part in these discussions about the establishment of a training board for agriculture? Can he give the House no idea, for example, when such a board is likely to be appointed? In the meantime, is his Department not taking extra steps this summer in relation to this year's school-leavers to try to get a greater proportion of them introduced to the agricultural apprenticeship scheme, which is such a small scheme in relation to the size of the industry?

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, who is seeking the advice of the Central Training Council about progress made. In reply to the second part, of course, we wish to encourage the maximum use of the scheme and the maximum amount of effort in it, but, as he will appreciate, there are difficulties.

Will the Minister consider, within the context of this Question, the need to encourage this scheme in the light of the report which I sent this morning to his right hon. Friend about a case in my constituency where there has been one eviction and 11 more additional evictions of farm workers from their houses as a result of the sale of one farm house? It is a very serious matter, and does not this sort of thing discourage recruitment into the industry as a whole?

That is a separate question.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to provide that those employees who seek other employment in advance of their being made redundant shall be entitled to the benefits of the resettlement scheme.

Workers who are in employment but are due to become redundant shortly may be considered for assistance under the Resettlement Scheme if they obtain other work away from home.

I am delighted to hear that from my right hon. Friend, but is he aware that I have been in correspondence with his hon. Friend about a case in my constituency of a man who showed a lot of initiative in getting a job before he was overtaken by events but whose proper claims for expenses in this connection were turned down because he had not waited until he had been declared redundant?

I have looked at this case, and I have to tell my hon. Friend that the position, as I understand it, is that this particular employee was not likely to have become redundant. One has to look at these matters very carefully to see what can be done to help in the case of any redundancies or expected redundancies, but, if we widen the scheme too much, it will not succeed.

Will my right hon. Friend consider giving more publicity to explain to people how they can qualify for this most useful scheme? My impression is that, in general, people know very little about it.

I should be very glad to do anything I can to publicise it more. We publish booklets about it, and I should be very happy to give further publicity anywhere I can. One has to do all one can to facilitate genuine movement, but, of course, in some parts of the country there are those who feel that it would be wrong to do too much in this way because it would have the effect of denuding a part of the country of some of its best workers.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the average case-load of each youth employment officer.

It is estimated that, in the present year, the average case-load will be about 550 to 600 young persons reaching the age of 15.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer, but is he satisfied that, with the growing complexity of training schemes and apprenticeships and the need for correct assessment, there is not an impossible load for the youth employment officer to carry successfully?

The answer to my hon. Friend in most cases is "Yes". I have given the average load. In some cases, the actual load is well below the average. [HON. MEMBERS: "And above in others."] In many fewer it is above. If circumstances such as my hon. Friend describes arise, my right hon. Friend would be only too anxious to see extra youth employment officers appointed. Since April, 1962, over 80 new posts have been created.

asked the Minister of Labour what consideration he has given to the publishing of regional cost of living indices, in view of the need for such indices when new wage rates are negotiated by companies moving into development areas.

The calculation of separate indices for particular areas was considered in 1951 by the Cost of Living Advisory Committee. The Committee was of the opinion that there would be serious objections to the publication of official indices of retail prices covering different social, economic or regional groups of the community, and recommended that only one official index should be published monthly. This recommendation was accepted by the then Minister of Labour. I have considered the matter again, but I am not satisfied as to the need to take a different view.

May I urge the right hon. Gentleman to look at this matter again? Is he aware that, as regards London, for instance, it has often been the practice to take into account in settling wages and salaries the greater cost of living in London? In the proper development of a regional policy, having regard to the need to attract firms into areas where there is unemployment now, would not a regional cost of living index be an extremely useful weapon?

It is for that reason that I was ready to consider this matter again, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that there are considerable difficulties here. For instance, although one may talk of London on its own, if one thinks in terms of the London and south-eastern region, there are many areas in the south-eastern part of the region, for instance, where costs are not nearly so high as they are in London. Therefore, one might create more confusion than one eliminated.

asked the Minister of Labour how many disabled people are unemployed in the Leigh, Atherton, and Tyldesley area.

On 20th April, 1964, there were 65 registered disabled persons registered as unemployed at Leigh Employment Exchange and 89 at the Atherton and Tyldesley Employment Exchange.

In view of the number of men in this area who have been medically certified as fit for light work only and the difficulties these men have in finding suitable jobs, will the hon. Gentleman consider making a special appeal to employers in the area to employ as many as possible, in excess of the 3 per cent, which, I think, most people now regard as "phony".

I could not accept the last point which the hon. Gentleman makes. I do not believe that people regard the quota as being in any way "phony". What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that our local officers are doing all they can to find suitable openings for unemployed disabled persons both by submitting them for vacancies notified by employers and by making special approaches to employers. The question is also being taken up by the disablement advisory committees and the local employment committees, and their advice is being sought.

Will the hon. Gentleman add his weight to what the local committees are doing? There is great feeling on this matter, and I think that an appeal by the Minister would do an enormous amount of good.

I hope that what I have said this afternoon will give indications of that support.

asked the Minister of Labour what were the average weekly earnings for men aged 21 years and over in the South-West for manufacturing and certain other industries in October 1963, as compared to the national average of £16 14s. 11d.; and by how much per cent. they exceeded those of April 1956 as compared with a national increase of 42 per cent.

The answer to the first part of the Question is £15 14s. 9d. Information is not available to answer the second part. Figures of average weekly earnings were not calculated on a regional basis until April 1960.

Might it not be possible to include figures of this kind for the main regions in the Monthly Digest of Statistics?

I shall consider what my hon. Friend suggests.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will now make funds available to permit the continuance of the work of the Slough Occupational Hygiene Service.

No, Sir. The Slough Occupational Hygiene Service did valuable work for industry, but I am satisfied that present demand for such services can be met from other sources. My own responsibility for carrying out work of this kind is met through the Factory Inspectorate.

Will the Minister look at this matter again? Is he aware that there is considerable anxiety in trade union circles about it?

Yes, I am aware of the concern and, in fact, I shall be discussing the matter with my Industrial Health Advisory Committee tomorrow. I have looked very carefully at it, but I have felt it right that we should try to cover by statutory requirements such things as need to be done. These come under the Factory Inspectorate where the facilities are adequate. Where it becomes a voluntary matter, however, one must rely on such facilities as are available and the Government should not support these.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Industrial Health Service at Slough is not affected by this closure, and could he say how this service is progressing?

It is true that the Industrial Health Service at Slough is entirely separate from the Occupational Hygiene Service. In fact, the Industrial Health Service at Slough is prospering very well. At present, it is serving 291 firms with about 25,000 employees involved.

Does not the Minister's reply completely misrepresent the situation? Of course, the Industrial Health Centre is something different, but has not the Occupational Hygiene Centre been making inquiries on the effect on the health of workers of dust, noise and heat? That is a research job and it is very different from the factory inspector's job to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.

I have misrepresented nothing whatever. In fact, what I have said is exactly the position. There are, of course, other voluntary facilities in other parts of the country which will—

Two.

Yes, but they will provide for the present demand. This is the point. The Factory Inspectorate does all that is necessary where there is a statutory requirement. I shall be very happy to make further statutory requirements in any industry if anyone will show me the need for them.

Is it good enough for the Minister to say that the present demand is small and therefore that the service should close? Is he aware that the effort in occupational hygiene in this country is much less than it is in many other industrial countries? For instance, last year in the city of Detroit alone there were more visits to places of work by the occupational hygiene service than there were in the whole of industry in Britain. Surely the right hon. Gentleman should stimulate the demand in industry and ensure that there is a bigger national effort instead of allowing this centre to close, as he did.

I recognise that there is a difficulty between demand and the need which one would like to see more fully met. In so far as there is a need where there is a statutory requirement, I accept that it is my responsibility. I am prepared to discuss this further with my Industrial Health Advisory Committee, and that is what I am proposing to do this week.

asked the Minister of Labour what number of building and construction workers were registered at employment exchanges in the County of Durham at the latest available date.

At 13th April, 4,058 workers whose last employment was in the construction industry were registered as unemployed at employment exchanges in County Durham.

Is it not extraordinary that over 4,000 building and construction workers registered at employment exchanges cannot get a job and yet there is so much work for which they are fitted which requires to be done in the County of Durham? Why not speed up the advance factories? Why not build some more hospitals? Why not build the houses that we require? Why not deal with the slums? In particular, will the right hon. Gentleman bring pressure to bear on the Minister of Transport to speed up the road development which has been promised us for so long?

We are doing a great deal in all these fields in the way that the right hon. Gentleman has suggested. Some more advance factories were announced only last week by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade. The figure has substantially improved during recent months. However, I accept that it is high and I want to see it much lower.

Would the right hon. Gentleman tell me what he proposes to do to reduce the figure?

We are providing more facilities for retraining in order to assist these people. Many of them are unskilled workers and we should like to assist them with training. We are stepping up the number of training places.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Messrs. Decorwall Limited, Wallpaper Manufacturers Retail Division, dismissed an employee in Coventry for joining the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and have since refused to reinstate him and nine other employees who went on strike in protest against his dismissal; and, as the company refuses to meet the union despite the intervention of his conciliation officers, whether, in the interest of a public policy which accepts that trade union association is a right, he will ensure that no further Government contracts are placed with Wallpaper Manufacturers Ltd., owners of Messrs. Decorwall.

This firm has assured our officers that the employee in question was not dismissed for joining a trade union. In these circumstances, my right hon. Friend does not think it would be appropriate to pursue the hon. Member's suggestion.

As proof that the company concerned is not telling the truth, is it not the case that the eight employees allegedly intimidated by the manager came out on strike in support of him? Is it not further the case that Wallpaper Manufacturers Ltd. has been condemned by the Monopolies Commission for its activities contrary to the public interest? Is it not known to the Minister, as it is well known in Coventry, that the company has refused to recognise trade unionism in its retail shops? In view of that, is not this yet another example of its activities contrary to the public interest?

I am simply not prepared to accept that what the firm has told my right hon. Friend is not true.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this company has enjoyed excellent labour relations with the trade union movement over a long period of years? Is he also aware that one of the reasons given for this man being dismissed was that he misused stamps and stationery? Is not this a just and sound reason for an employer sacking a man?

I prefer to stick to what I said—that the firm has assured my right hon. Friend that the employee in question was not dismissed for joining a trade union. That is what we have been told, and that is a statement which I accept. I am glad to hear what my hon. Friend says about the firm's relations with the trade union movement.

In view of all the confusion on the facts, would the hon. Gentleman agree that the best thing to do would be for the union to meet the employers and to sort the matter out?

I understand that this firm has very good relations with its trade union, and always has had.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Expose them.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider making available through the services of his Department details of employment vacancies which are at present only offered through the Overseas Resettlement Bureau.

The bureau was, of course, established with the particular purpose of assisting ex-members of Her Majesty's Overseas Civil Service to obtain suitable employment. I will, however, discuss the suggestion which my hon. Friend has made with my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Technical Co-operation.

I thank my hon. Friend for that very helpful reply as far as it goes. Would he agree that many of the increasing number of British subjects returning from service in the emergent territories feel frustrated that certain details of re-employment for which they are fully qualified are available only to Crown Agents and colonial civil servants through this bureau? I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to obtain this information for other British subjects.

I assure my hon. Friend that the Ministry sends the bureau particulars of any notified vacancies particularly suitable for ex-overseas civil servants. All are invited to register for re-employment with both the bureau and the Ministry.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the marine repair yard in Southampton Docks may be closed within the next fortnight; and what steps he is taking to find jobs for those who will become redundant.

I understand from the British Railways Board that consideration is being given to the closure of the marine workshops at Southampton but that there is no question of immediate closure. As part of the seasonal reduction 150 workpeople were discharged last Friday and 340 are under notice to leave in the course of this week. These workers and others who might become redundant as a result of any decision the Board may take to close the workshops will receive every assistance from our local officers in finding alternative employment.

As labour relations in the Southampton Docks are normally very good, as the hon. Gentleman knows, will he do what he can to ensure that British Railways, when they are contemplating steps of this gravity affecting men's livelihoods, take those men into their fullest confidence and consultation?

I am sure that what the hon. Gentleman says is acceptable to both sides of the House.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to lay down minimum standards of health and welfare in the building industry; whether he will apply to all building contractors, the standards now insisted upon by the Ministry of Public Building and Works in relation to Government contracts; and if he will make a statement.

Minimum standards are already laid down in the Building (Safety, Health and Welfare) Regulations, 1948. The health and welfare requirements are being revised and preliminary drafts of the new Regulations have been under discussion with interested organisations. I hope soon to be in a position to publish a Statutory Draft. These Regulations will cover a wide variety of building sites and also works of engineering construction. It would not be appropriate to insist on the Ministry of Public Building and Works' standards being applied over the whole field, as these relate only to large construction sites where work is expected to last at least 12 months.

Is the Minister thinking in terms of similar standards for those of the Ministry of Public Building and Works in relation to large contracts? Can he give any indication of the timing of the procedure which he has just described—when he expects the new regulations to be brought before the House in their final form?

I have thought about this problem of large sites. I felt that it was probably right to provide general regulations covering the whole field. We can, perhaps, see what they look like when they emerge. There has been a good deal of discussion on this matter and I cannot yet give a firm guarantee on dates. We want to get agreement if possible.

asked the Minister of Labour to what extent labour training and retraining facilities in Scotland are being fully utilised; and what evidence there is of a growing demand for such facilities.

Three hundred and thirty-five of the 405 training places available for adults at Government training centres in Scotland are at present occupied. Demand for training is at present steady, but I am providing a further 456 training places to meet the needs arising from expected industrial expansion and change in Scotland. I shall keep these plans under regular review.

Could the Minister explain the reasons for the shortfall in the demand for them relative to the supply? Is it because of a lack of publicity? What are the reasons? Can the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent the trade unions are cooperating? May I ask him specifically about the position in Fife? What is the response of redundant miners to the training facilities provided there?

We are doing all we can about publicity. I am a little disappointed that the centres are not completely full. If the hon. Gentleman can help me in this matter, I shall be grateful because we want the facilities to be used as much as possible. We are doing all we can. In relation to Fife, the number of redundant miners who have made application for training has not been very large. Only 31 have applied for training out of the very considerable number who have become redundant. Of course, a number of them are getting other jobs for which they have not required training.

Will the Minister indicate the number of places available in Scotland? Can he also inform the House what facilities he has established in the Fort William area to cope with the large influx of workers who will be taken on by the pulp mill when it comes into operation?

The figures which I have given relate solely to Scotland. I do not have a training centre in the Fort William area, but I hope that we can provide facilities for training the local men in other areas if necessary.