asked the Minister of Labour whether he will have consultations with a view to acquiring the Harland and Wolff shipyard in the division of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan, soon to be closed, for use as a Government centre to retrain men redundant in other industries for jobs in new or expanding trades.

There is a Government training centre at Hillington and my right hon. Friend is providing new Government training centres at Queens-lie, Port Glasgow and Dumbarton. These centres should meet the training needs of the area, but we will, of course, keep the position under continuous review.

While recognising what is being done, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he realises that here is an opportunity for us to acquire premises not only at Govan Cross but also at Helen Street which are very large indeed? In view of the need for training and retraining for the new skills in industry on a large scale in circumstances, where possible, to which the unemployed men have been formerly accustomed, is the hon. Gentleman aware that this presents a new opportunity? There is size, suitability and accessibility, and in my view there is need for the Government to consider seriously acquiring these premises for the purposes which I have indicated.

I have said that we will keep the position under continuous review. It is important for the hon. Member to appreciate, however, that Harland and Wolff's shipyard premises would not be readily adaptable for use as a training centre. The first thing that we must do is to ensure that the facilities now provided are fully taken up.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number and location of training and retraining centres in Scotland; how many teachers and trainees there are in each: and what subjects are taught in each.

There are three Government training centres in Scotland, at Hillington, Motherwell, and Dunfermline; there are 22 instructors and 203 trainees (including 45 first-year apprentices), at the Hillington centre, 14 instructors and 121 trainees (including 23 first-year apprentices) at the Motherwell centre, and seven instructors and 67 trainees at the Dunfermline centre. As the answer to the last part of the Question consists of a table, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that detailed reply, but I should like to ask him two questions about it. Firstly, does this include training in the new industries and industries depending upon automation and things of that sort as well as in the old conventional industries? Does it also include training in hygiene, public and personal,

asked the Minister of Labour what success he has had in finding employers for the 24 apprentices who recently completed their first year apprentice training course at the Tursdale Government Training Centre.

I am happy to say that all the boys have been satisfactorily placed with employers with whom they will be able to complete their apprenticeships.

Satisfactory though that Answer is, does not this success

On the first point, the hon. and learned Member will see when he studies the list in HANSARD that it covers a very wide range. There might be some variation in the definition of the new industries, but the training covers principally building, engineering and a certain number of other industries. On the second point, the hon. and learned Member will appreciate that it will not be possible for us to cover such a wide scale as he was thinking of in the second part of his supplementary question.

We have doubled the number of training places at Tursdale for first-year apprentices since January of this year, and I have looked at the question of other training centres on a number of occasions. There is one planned for Billingham, but I could not promise any more until we see how other new centres get on. My hon. Friend will appreciate that I could not comment on the other matter. All I can say is that in this area, as over the rest of the country, the employment position has been improving sharply over recent months.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is all very well talking about doubling this, that and the other, but if one doubles very little it does not amount to much? What we should do is not to double but to quadruple things all along the line. Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that mathematical calculations should express the desire of the people of the North-East, which has more Government training centres following the success of the placing of the apprentices who have been trained?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that we have done a considerable amount in expanding the total numbers as well as the percentages in the North-East, and I believe that we are going ahead well. As regards the desires of the people in the North-East, I want to see that the new centres which we open are fully utilised. I will be then happy to discuss further extensions with my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Labour how many juveniles have completed courses at the Tursdale training centre whose homes are in Gainford, Barnard Castle, Middleton-in-Teesdale and other villages west of Gainford, respectively.

None, Sir.

Will the Minister note particularly what was said by the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) and the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) on Question No. 5? Does this not reveal that in Barnard Castle and the area to the west there is practically no opportunity for young people to get training facilities? Will the Minister seriously consider setting up another training establishment, preferably in West Durham, at a place like Bishop Auckland, Crook or Barnard Castle, or, at the very least, in Darlington?

Hear, hear.

For my part, I invite the hon. Member to remember the reply which was given by my right hon. Friend the Minister. It cannot be said that because people from a specific area were not actually given places in the classes at Tursdale no training opportunities are available for them. That is not the fact.

asked the Minister of Labour what further progress he is making with the setting up of industrial training beards under the Industrial Training Act; and whether he will make a statement.

I hope to make Orders establishing industrial training boards for the wool and iron and steel industries in about a fortnight's time. There are one or two points outstanding in relation to the definitions of the engineering and construction industries which will entail further consultations. As soon as these are completed, I shall make Orders setting up boards for these two industries.

In the meantime, I am anxious that the members of boards should have an opportunity of meeting together, if necessary in advance of the Orders being made, and meetings are planned for all four boards towards the end of June. I shall, with permission, publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the individuals who have agreed to serve on the wool and engineering boards. I hope to publish the names of the members of the other two boards in the very near future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in contrast to the reception which he received on the last Question, I have great pleasure in congratulating him on the speed of the development of this training programme? Can he say what progress is being made in providing staff for the training boards and buildings to house them so that progress can be made with as much speed in future as it is being made now?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said. I am sure that the whole House wants to see the implementation of this Act as quickly as possible, and that is why I have been pressing forward with it. On staff, I am loaning the services of two of my officers to both the engineering and construction boards to assist them until they have recruited staff of their own. The chairmen of the Iron and Steel Board and the Wool Board have themselves arranged the temporary loan of staff for their boards from the Iron and Steel Federation and the Wool (and Allied) Textile Employers' Council respectively. As regards premises, we are making provision temporarily at 32 St. James's Square for the engineering and construction boards. The iron and steel and the wool boards will be able to rely initially on accommodation made available by their Federation and Council.

How soon does the Minister expect to lay the Orders in relation to the construction and engineering boards? Does he think that it will be before the House rises for the Summer Recess? Would he agree that there are still many firms waiting to see what the boards will say and that the boards will not be able effectively to carry out their duties until the House has approved the Orders? Does he agree, therefore, that it is very important to get these two boards, which are the biggest and most important of all, in operation as soon as possible?

I share the hon. Gentleman's view very strongly, and I shall be deeply disappointed if I am not able to introduce them before the House rises. I feel confident that I will do so, but there have been real difficulties of definition. This is a terribly complicated matter in these two industries, but my officials have been working wonders in trying to sort things out and I hope that, with good will on both sides, we shall succeed.

asked the Minister of Labour why he has decided not to invite the Association of Supervisory Staffs, Executives and Technicians to nominate a representative on the industrial training board for the engineering industry, in view of the fact that the Association organises foremen and others who are not represented by any other union.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the desirability of securing a cross-section of representatives of the industry on the industrial training board for the engineering industry, if he will reconsider his decision not to invite a representative from the Association of Supervisory Staffs, Executives and Technicians.

There are 36 unions in the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions, and it would have been quite impossible to appoint a member from each union with an interest in the industry to the engineering board. In appointing the workers' members, I have tried to secure as fair and representative a selection of unions as possible. Unions which are not directly represented on the board will, I feel sure, have the opportunity of making then-views known through the various committees the hoard will need to set up.

While I appreciate the Minister's difficulties and the impossibility of having all organisations represented on the board, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that this is the only organisation which specifically caters for foremen and supervisory staffs, that it is the only union which has an agreement with the engineering employers which caters for those grades, and that it also includes in its ranks very many training instructors? Would he not think that for these three reasons the union has a special claim to be represented and to be heard on the subject of industrial training at the topmost level?

I had in mind the very considerations which the hon. Gentleman has raised. I am sure he will realise that practically every union had special reasons for wanting to be included and I had to make a choice. It may be said by some that my choice was not correct, but I tried to arrange the broadest representation that I could. I believe that other unions can play a very useful part through the committee structure, and I hope that this particular union will be able to do just that.

Has the right hon. Gentleman paid sufficient attention to the white-collar workers, who are an increasing proportion of the total number of workers and of union members in this country? Would he not agree, therefore, that to omit such an important branch of the white-collar workers is to be backward-looking instead of forward-looking?

I took this point into account, but there were many other organisations with claims from all sorts of conflicting angles. I would remind the hon. Gentleman of the existence of the Central Training Council, which will be particularly charged with looking at this aspect of the problem.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that, with the best will in the world, it is impossible to give everybody representation on the board and, despite the criticism, would he not agree that it is most encouraging that the board is already working so soon after the passing of the Act?

As I have indicated, the difficulties about getting agreement were substantial. I think, however that I have the general good will of all sides, and I hope that we shall maintain this and be able to make rapid progress. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comment.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will provide sub-offices in the larger outlying housing schemes in Dundee, as bus fares cost 1s. 4d. each time an unemployed person registers and some have to register daily.

I do not consider my right hon. Friend would at present be justified in opening sub-offices in any of the larger outlying housing scheme areas in Dundee. Those persons who sign the unemployed register daily are people whose normal employment is on a casual basis. For that reason all but a few already attend at a central point each day and their subsequent attendance at the employment exchange imposes no additional hardship.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of these people travel well over five miles to sign on at the employment exchange? If he cannot provide a sub-office, would he be prepared to consider making a transport allowance in cases of hardship or in laying down a statutory distance, say, of five miles—because towns are growing all the time—and say that they will be paid a transport allowance if they travel beyond that?

There are already specific arrangements concerning distance. Claimants for unemployment benefit are normally required to sign the employment register twice weekly if they live within four miles of the employment exchange. Those who live between four and six miles away are required to sign once a week. Those living beyond six miles are normally dealt with by post. That goes some way towards meeting the point which the hon. Member is making.

asked the Minister of Labour when he intends to bring into force the Trade Union (Amalgamations, etc.) Act, 1964.

I intend shortly to make an Order bringing the Act into force on 1st July.

Can my right hon. Friend say what progress he is making in drawing up the regulations?

Yes, Sir. I hope to make the commencement Order and the general regulations some time next week. My hon. Friend will not, therefore, have long to wait before this Act comes fully into effect, and I congratulate him on having introduced it.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the placing of Easter school leavers.

Of 157,000 Easter school leavers known to the Youth Employment Service, 2,510 or 1·6 per cent. were still registered for first employment on 11th May. There were fewer Easter leavers than had been anticipated and it seems likely that many boys and girls have decided to stay on at school for a further term. We may therefore expect a large number of leavers at the end of the summer term. I am arranging for a circular to be issued advising employers of this so that they can plan their intake of young people accordingly.

Would my right hon. Friend agreed that these figures are very much better than expected? How do they compare with the figures available for 1963?

I am glad to note that these figures are encouraging; they are a striking improvement. In the comparable month last year, 9,100 school leavers, representing 6·5 per cent. of the output, were still unemployed.

But is the Minister aware that 1963 is a very bad year for making a comparison? Does he realise that in 1963 there was, on average, 50 per cent. more youth unemployment than in 1962 and about three times more youth unemployment than ten years before? While everybody will welcome the improvement, we want to see an improvement compared with what went on before 1963 and not with what went on in 1963.

I accept that. Obviously I shall not be satisfied, and I do not suppose anybody else Will be satisfied, until we can get a complete intake. The fact that only 1·6 per cent. of the total number of school leavers, which was fairly substantial, was still unemployed on 11th May, is something with which both sides of the House will be pleased.

asked the Minister of Labour how many of the members appointed to the Central Training Council have had practical experience as training officers; and how much experience they have had.

All the employer members of the Central Training Council have had many years practical experience of training, as of other management, problems, although none has, as far as I am aware, been a training officer as such. Of the other members, one has been education and training officer of the Electricity Council since 1948, and another was for eight years director of education and research in a large company.

I thank the Minister for that reply. I wonder whether it would not be better to have on the Central Training Council people who have been employed as training officers and who know the present-day problems.

This is a difficult question. I was reinforced in the action which I took by what the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) said during the Committee stage of the Bill. He drew attention to this very fact, namely, the need to have, on the one hand, people of sufficiently high standing in the industry and, on the other, of wanting people with technical knowledge. What we can probably do if necessary, is to have a committee under the Council on which the more technical people can be included.

Can my right hon. Friend say when the Council will hold its first meeting and how often it is likely to meet?

It will initially meet, I hope, about once a month. It held its first meeting last week. I had the pleasure of attending it and of seeing the enthusiasm with which this has been started.

I am encouraged by what the Minister said just now to make a further suggestion. Has he noticed that recently some training officers formed an organisation which they are calling the British Institute of Training Officers? Will he have regard to this development, and, assuming that it becomes a strong organisation representing training officers throughout industry, will he bear in mind the desirability of having someone from that organisation on the Central Training Council, because, after all, these are the people with responsibility in the firms for organising training and who probably have a prior claim to anyone else to representation on the Council?

I do not know that I could give such an undertaking. What the hon. Gentleman has just said runs counter to what he said during the Committee stage of the Bill. I should like to watch the position as we go along. As I said, technical knowledge is very important, but it is also important to have leaders of both sides of industry in order to give the Council its proper standing.

asked the Minister of Labour what surveys have been undertaken by his Department of the problem of unemployment among disabled persons in areas like North Staffordshire; and what proposals he has under consideration for stimulating the supply of suitable employment.

It is part of the duties of the disablement resettlement officers in North Staffordshire and elsewhere in the country to keep the position of unemployed disabled persons regularly under review and to seek ways of promoting their employment by submitting them to suitable notified vacancies and through special approaches to employers. In appropriate cases employers are asked to see whether jobs can be modified so as to bring them within the capabilities of the disabled.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, in spite of all that is done, and with the best will in the world, by his Department and with the co-operation of the employers, in areas like North Staffordshire there is simply not enough suitable employment for men who are disabled? In view of the fact that special steps are taken for the severely disabled, is it not time that the hon. Gentleman's Department made a new approach to the problem of the partially disabled who require specially suitable employment to be provided in such areas?

I agree that the position in North Staffordshire is certainly more difficult concerning the partially disabled than in other parts of the country. Despite that, however, it is satisfactory to note that during the last 12 months disablement resettlement officers have placed disabled persons in 1,054 jobs notified to employment exchanges for North Staffordshire.

asked the Minister of Labour how many building workers are unemployed in the Bishop Auckland travel to work area; and in what categories these unemployed workers are.

At 11th May, 1964, 268 workers whose last employment was in the construction industry were registered at employment exchanges in the Bishop Auckland travel to work group. Of these, 28 were skilled craftsmen, 236 were labourers or in other occupations and four were young persons.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that this is highly unsatisfactory at this time of year in view of the great need for housing, schools, hospital improvements, roads and social facilities in the area? Will he undertake to have consultations with the Ministers responsible for these services to see whether more grants can be made available to mop up this amount of unemployment?

There is no doubt that in many parts of the country, and, in deed, in parts of the North-East, the bottleneck is the shortage of skilled craftsmen which already exists in the construction industry. With the work that is building up in the North-East, I am sure that the skilled craftsmen, who, the hon. Member will have noticed, are very few in number, will soon be placed in employment.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary saying that the outlook for these 250 or more people is hopeless, that there are no retraining facilities for them and no possibility of expanding the amount of building work, and that, therefore, they must remain unemployed?

Not in the least. I am saying that the work is being expanded and that training facilities are available. The hon. Member must, however, remember that the amount of labour which can be employed in expanding construction work depends upon the number of skilled craftsmen available.

asked the Minister of Labour how many and what proportion of boys entering employment became apprentices in 1963 compared with 1962.

101,708 or 33·5 per cent. in 1963, compared with 121,517 or 36·2 per cent. in 1962.

Is the Minister aware that this reveals an extremely serious state of affairs, showing a drop of over 20,000 boys starting apprenticeships in 1963 as compared with the previous year? Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that this is so serious that emergency action is required rather faster than the setting up and the slow deliberation of training boards? Is he further aware that the biggest drop has taken place in 15-year-old entries and that the 16 and 17-year entries have substantially increased? Does he not, therefore, feel that there would be scope for further increasing the intake of 16 and 17-year-olds during the next year?

I agree with the hon. Member that this fall is very unsatisfactory. In fact, however, this was the figure for 1963, when, as the hon. Member will realise, there were a number of employment difficulties all over the country which, no doubt, affected the percentage. In the first four months of this year, the numbers have improved over the first four months of the previous year, and I hope that this trend will continue. However, I do not agree with the hon. Member about not waiting for the implementation of the Industrial Training Act. I want to press ahead with the Act and get facilities which will embody not only apprentice training, but all forms of training in industry. That is what is needed.

Does not the Minister feel that among last year's 15-year-olds are some boys who will permanently find themselves with less opportunity unless emergency action is taken?

I hope that there will be opportunities as the training boards get going, but I will be perfectly willing to consider any other ways of helping these young people.

asked the Minister of Labour what proportion of boys entering employment in the years 1961–62 and 1962–63 were apprenticed.

From August, 1961, to July, 1962, 37·4 per cent., from August, 1962, to July, 1963, 34·1 per cent.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that progressively with technical progress more and more people will be needed in industry and proportionately fewer unskilled people? Does he not consider that these are very bad figures in an age when technological progress is such that, if we do not move quickly, within another decade we shall be out of the running unless we get more skilled people?

I accept that there is a drop between the figures I have given, but the figures for Scotland are substantially higher than those for the United Kingdom as a whole. The whole gist of the Government's policy is at present built around the Industrial Training Act, and I think that it should provide many great opportunities for far higher standards of training in the future.

Mr. Bence, Question No. 23.

Is the right hon. Gentleman referring just to Scotland alone or to the—

I did not see the hon. Gentleman rise. I am sorry about that, but I have now called the next Question.

asked the Minister of Labour what special arrangements he makes to find employment for the less easily employed left behind after a wave of extra high local unemployment; and what arrangements he is making on Tees-side.

Employment exchanges keep unemployed people on their registers under regular review and make special approaches to employers on behalf of those who find difficulty in getting employment. A new Government training centre is to be opened at Tees-side which will provide further opportunities for those unemployed who are suitable for vocational training.

Is the Minister aware that in the North-East, the National Assistance Board used to employ special officers for locating men who found it most difficult to get jobs, that these officers no longer work in this capacity and that there are no equivalent officers in the Ministry of Labour? Does not the Minister feel it necessary to set aside special officers to do this work?

While I will consider the point that the hon. Member has raised, I have not been aware of any particular difficulty in this sphere. The great thing is to provide more employment opportunities, and that is what we are seeking to do. For example, the hon. Member will be aware of the advance factories which are being located in this area.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is the only Question on the Order Paper about unemployment? Dees this not bring satisfaction to the whole House?

I am glad that my hon. Friend has pointed out that fact. Undoubtedly, there is not the same pressure in relation to unemployment. I trust that this means that both sides of the House welcome the wise guidance of the Government in implementing their policies.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will request the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress, who are to conduct a joint investigation into unofficial trade disputes, to make the reports available to his Department.

I am hoping to arrange to discuss their proposal with representatives of the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress.

As this whole idea is an adaptation of my right hon. Friend's original idea to have a "fire brigade", one accepts that it is very good as far as it goes. Can my right hon. Friend tell us, however, when there is a possibility of the first action being taken by the joint committee which is being set up of the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress?

I am glad that my proposal stimulated the two sides to this suggestion, and I am anxious to talk to them about it before making any further comment. Within limits, it is a helpful

asked the Minister of Labour the number, by age, sex and trade, of persons unemployed in Aberdeen during the spring in each of the last five years to the latest convenient date.

As the reply consists of a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

When the Minister gives figures, they are generally stale, whereas it is important in a matter of this sort, affecting trade, industry and commerce, that we should be given figures which are right up to date.

I can give the hon. and learned Member the general figures for unemployment in Aberdeen on 11th May, which I think he would consider to be reasonably up-to-date. On that date, there were 2,494 people unemployed in Aberdeen compared with 3,309 a year earlier.

asked the Minister of Labour how many apprentices will become redundant when Barry's linoleum factories in Kirkcaldy are closed this month.

I understand that one apprentice electrician will become redundant.

While the number may indeed be small, does the Minister realise that this loss of one apprentice electrician is a quite considerable loss to this country and even more of a tragic loss to the individual concerned who is unable to find a place? This is the second occasion this firm has closed several factories, and in fact this time will be the final one. On the last occasion this apprentice found it most difficult to find suitable alternative employment? What steps does the hon. Gentleman propose to take to ensure that on this occasion he is found a suitable place?

I agree with the hon. Member on his first point, namely, that the number could scarcely be smaller, but at the same time I agree with him that even if the figure is only one it is important to the person concerned and also for everyone else. Efforts are being made to find an opening for this boy with another local firm so that his apprenticeship can continue. Our local officers are in close touch with Barry's and will do all they can to assist.

asked the Minister of Labour what reduction there has been in the number of persons employed in the linoleum industry in Kirkcaldy since January 1963 to the latest available date; and what increase there has been in the number of people in this industry in Staines in this period.

I regret that this information is confidential.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a considerable reduction in the numbers of people employed in the linoleum industry since January, 1963, and that the closure of factories in Kirkcaldy has necessitated an expansion in Staines, and there must be at Staines, if not an increase in the numbers employed, certainly a lower rate of reduction than one would have expected? Is not this a complete reversal of Government policy to encourage, guide and stimulate industry in Scotland? What does he propose to do to reverse the trend? What steps has he taken to provide employment for the 200 people to be declared redundant in Kirkcaldy?

In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, it is certainly unfortunate that these jobs should be lost in Kirkcaldy, particularly since, as the hon. Gentleman rightly states, they have been gained in Staines. However, the decision to make the move was taken in the light of the firm's commercial judgment. There was no power to stand in its way as the firm was moving to existing premises and, therefore, no industrial development certificate was necessary. With regard to employment generally in the area and to the provision of jobs for the people who are declared redundant, the hon. Gentlemen is well aware of all the measures being taken—and being successfully taken—to stimulate employment in this area.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why the particular figures are confidential?

Yes, Sir; because in this case it would involve disclosing information which would reveal directly the numbers employed in individual firms, and it is not the practice to do so.

As the hon. Gentleman is shy about the detailed figures, could he give us any indication by way of percentage increase or decrease?

Not without notice, but I am quite prepared to do so if the hon. Gentleman asks me.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, to counteract the current hooliganism, he will consider legislation to continue or restore National Service.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will introduce legislation to revive the form of direction which was used under the National Service Act to send boys to work in the mines, and which could be used for other forms of national non-military service, for those youths arrested at seaside and other resorts who are causing inconvenience to other holidaymakers and residents, as an alternative to sentencing them to terms of imprisonment or fines.

No. Sir.

While rather expecting that reply, may I ask my right hon. Friend to consider an alternative suggestion, such as establishing a sort of training unit staffed by Regular officers, with a good sergeant-major and N.C.O.s, so that these young people can be sent to that unit instead of to prison so that they may possibly learn some much needed discipline?

I am not quite clear whether my hon. Friend means a unit of the Armed Forces. If that is his thought, I must say to him that I could not hold out any hopes of that kind. I would have thought that the statement which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made on this whole question last week sums up the Government's attitude to this matter.

Does my right hon. Friend not think it is a great pity that a lot of these young people who are not inherently bad should have to go to prison and possibly waste their time there? Could not something be found for them to do? For instance, in my constituency we have self-help house building associations, which badly need support. Has my right hon. Friend thought of asking our labour attachés in our embassies abroad to find out what is being done about this problem in other countries, because it is an international problem?

As to the last part of my hon. Friend's question, I will consider that, but I do not think I should take this matter further. As I have said, my right hon. Friend gave great thought to the statement he made last week, and that does really sum up the Government's attitude to this whole matter. But I would certainly hold out no hopes of doing anything in relation to the Armed Forces, which provide an honourable career, and should continue to do so.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the scare stories used by Conservative speakers in recent by-elections has been that Labour policy might involve the reintroduction of conscription? Will he confirm that the only suggestion that he has received to that effect has come on the Floor of the House from his own side of the House?

I am very interested in this statement, but I am a little puzzled why it was not made last week, when the invitation was given. Presumably, the hon. Member has been now briefed. What I would say to him is that if, in fact, it is not the policy of the party opposite to introduce conscription, perhaps he will explain how it proposes to increase our conventional Forces in the way it has said.

But not on this Question.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, instead of giving a short, simple, negative reply to hon. Members who have asked these Questions, he ought to have declared it to be a shocking suggestion—that the Forces of this country should be created out of alleged hooligans? Does not he regard that as a discreditable suggestion? Would he not make it perfectly clear that it is the policy of the Government to reject any proposal either for military conscription or for any other form of conscription?

I can only assume that the right hon. Gentleman did not hear my reply. I said, and said quite categorically, that I thought that service in the Armed Forces was an honourable profession. Having been Secretary of State for War until quite recently, I feel that very strongly.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement about the Decorwall trade dispute.

asked the Minister of Labour what further steps his Department have taken to resolve the dispute now existing; between the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and Decorwall Ltd.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a further effort to intervene in the dispute now existing between Decorwall and the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers.

asked the Minister of Labour what further communication he has received from Wallpaper Manufacturers Limited, with regard to the Decorwall dispute.

As my right hon. Friend and I have indicated in earlier replies, the dispute at this firm arises from the dismissal of the manager of a shop. I understand that the firm gave their reasons in writing to the employee concerned at the time of dismissal. The firm subsequently dismissed a number of employees who went on strike following the manager's dismissal. The union concerned take the view that the reason for these dismissals was that the employees concerned were trade union members. The firm have given an assurance that this is not so. In discussions with officers of the Ministry, the firm have said that they are not prepared to reconsider the dismissals nor to meet union representatives. A further approach has however been made to the firm, who, I hope, will agree to an early meeting with officers of the Ministry. In reply to a supplementary question from the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) on 11th May, I referred to the good relations between this firm and its trade union. I wish to make it clear that I was referring to the manufacturing side of the firm's activities, which is covered by a Joint Industrial Council.

Is the Minister aware that, while his endeavours are welcome in this matter, it is appropriate that he should now point out that this matter is of considerable principle, since Wallpaper Manufacturers Limited is a monopoly company and since Decorwall has consistently refused to meet the trade union in this matter and, in the meantime, it has put forward a statement, which was supported by the hon. Member for Coventry, South (Mr. Hocking), to whom I gave notice that I intended to mention him, that this man was sacked not, as was the case, for wanting to join a trade union, but for a misdemeanour? In view of this unfounded charge, will not the Minister take the opportunity, first, to refute it and, secondly, to insist that Wallpaper Manufacturers should at an early date take the opportunity of confronting the manager who has been so grossly abused and give him an opportunity of stating his case, together with his trade union associates?

I have indicated in my reply that we are making a further approach to the firm and that I hope that it will agree to an early meeting with the officers of our Ministry. I think that in these circumstances it would be wise for me to make no further comment, one way or the other, so far as the matters of dispute are concerned.

May I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the statement he has made this afternoon and indicate that I do not wish to make any remarks which are likely to create any difficulties for his Department? But will the Parliamentary Secretary make quite clear to this firm that this union has a first-class record on strikes and that this company must not assume that reasonableness is weakness, and that we intend to take every possible action to defend the rights of this union to be recognised as the appropriate trade union in cases of this kind?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his realisation that it is important not to say much at this stage of the proceedings. As to the rest of what he said, all I would say to him is that his words will be read very carefully by all concerned.

While appreciating the difficulties for his Department, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he understands that this firm's attitude, in refusing week after week to meet the union, and in insultingly refusing to meet the Minister's own officials, has created great bitterness in Coventry? Will he make it quite clear first of all that the procedure by the firm is not one we could possibly approve of?

All I would say in answer to the hon. Member is that it is true that the firm did meet our officers previously and did discuss the matter with them. As I said in my original statement, it did meet our officers before; we have asked it to meet us again, and I should like to wait and see what reply it will give on this occasion.

While not wanting to prejudge any meeting which may take place between the Minister and the firm, may I ask my hon. Friend if he will confirm that this man can go to law, if he so wishes, to get whatever restitution he thinks is possible?

Oh.

My hon. Friend asked a practical question, and the answer, as the House will very well know, is that, of course, this man has his legal rights. All I am saying at this stage is that we are making an approach to the firm again. I think that this is the best way of proceeding at this stage.

asked the Minister of Labour how many youths are undertaking industrial training in Scotland.

I regret that this information is not available, but in 1963, 13,906 boys or 42·6 per cent. of all boys entering employment in Scotland took apprenticeships or other jobs with training.

As the need.; of Scotland are far greater than the needs of the remainder of the United Kingdom, are these figures not quite unsatisfactory if we expect in the next decade to attract a considerable increase in newer industries into Scotland? Will the right hon. Gentleman do something to boost the training of young people in Scotland to fit into the new era?

I indicated in reply to the previous Question that it is through the Industrial Training Act that there will be a new impetus. I believe that it will have a tremendous impact. In relation to the young people in Scotland leaving school, it is significant that of those leaving at Easter this year only a very small proportion, about 2·3 pet cent., have not yet found employment.

Will my right hon. Friend ask the industrial training boards to look at the length of apprenticeships? It is a very strong discouragement for our young people to spend five years in craft apprenticeship training when other nations find it possible to do it much more quickly.

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend raises a very important point. I am sure that as the industrial training boards get under way the whole question of apprentice training must be looked at afresh. I believe that we need to concentrate more on training as such within apprenticeships, for the form of training is what matters. I believe that the period will then fall into place.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if we take all forms of training into account, the proportion entering employment which offers some kind of training in Scotland and the North-East is far lower than in the rest of the country? Is not some machinery required additional to that envisaged under the Industrial Training Act to look after the immediate local and regional problem in respect of boys now entering employment?

It was with this in view that we expanded the Government training centres, which are directed very considerably towards Scotland and the North-East. This is where the largest part of the expansion has taken place. This is the interim measure that we have taken. In the meantime, the important thing is to press ahead with the Industrial Training Act.

asked the Minister of Labour what action he is taking to reduce the waiting period of six months for applicants with epilepsy seeking admission to the residential rehabilitation centre at Egham, Surrey.

I am considering whether more residential accommodation is necessary at the Egham Unit, and the availability in other parts of the country of lodgings suitable for epileptics is being investigated with a view to other units taking some of those waiting for admission.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this operates very hardly in the case of people who are waiting? May I send him details of one of my constituents who has been told that he has to wait for six months? He is an epileptic case and is very anxious to be rehabilitated, and six months is rather too long to wait.

I have a great deal of sympathy in this matter, but these epileptic cases are very difficult. This is the only residential centre that we have for them, and we sometimes get waiting lists. I should be glad to look into any case sent to me to see whether I can help.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will detail the reasons why the Index of Retail Prices in the Services group show an increase of 6·7 per cent. from January 1962; and what has been the increase since October 1951.

The rise in the index for the Services group of the Index of Retail Prices between January, 1962, and April, 1964, was due to higher charges for almost all the services included in the group. The index for the Services group rose by about 60 per cent. between October, 1951, and April, 1964.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that these figures, taken with figures for other classes of goods in the Index of Retail Prices, illustrate the utter nonsense talked by the Government about stabilising the cost of living over the past two years? Will he draw these figures to the attention of the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance so that the hardships falling upon the unemployed, the sick and the old-age pensioners might be relieved?

In this group of the index, as the hon. Gentleman will perhaps know, the largest item of the weighting is entertainment other than television and radio. That is the item which has gone up most. We must relate this to the increases in wage rates and earnings. Whereas the all-items index has risen 48·5 per cent. between October, 1951, and April, 1964, wage rates have risen 78 per cent. Average earnings have risen 98 per cent. between October, 1951, and October, 1963. That is what counts, and that is why our people are better off than they were.

What percentage of these services are administered by nationalised industries?

I could not give that without notice.