asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will request the Plowden Committee to present an interim report on the issue of the age of transfer.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in view of the evidence they have now received from the London County Council and other authorities, he will reconsider his decision not to request the Plowden Committee to present an interim report on the age of transfer.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) on 18th June.

Whilst appreciating that reply and also, I think, the further reasons which the right hon. and learned Gentleman gave in the debate last night, and which I have carefully read, may I put two supplementary questions to him? First of all, has he given due weight to the problem of those local authorities where the so-called experiment has been going on for some years and where there is a danger in two or three more years of its hardening into an irreversible fait accompli, as, for example, in Coventry? Secondly, has the right hon. and learned Gentleman given due weight to the powerful evidence of the National Union of Teachers given to the Plowden Committee, where it insists that some order must be introduced into the administrative chaos now developing?

I have considered both points. The second one, I think, tells in favour of my Answer, that this is a matter for the Plowden Committee and I must be guided as to the possibility of separating this issue from the other issues involved.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that this is a matter of great urgency for those parents who move from one part of the country to another and who may well be confronted with sending a son or daughter, who has been at a secondary of the particular problem which my hon. Friend has in mind—school, back to a primary school, if schemes such as the West Riding one are put into effect?

As I said last night, I agree that there is an element of urgency about it, but this is a fundamental question of educational organisation, and it is more important to give the right answer in due course rather than the wrong answer quickly.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that with regard to transfers it quite often happens that people are transferred and then find that the educational arrangements of local authorities differ tremendously in the terms and grants given as between one local authority area and another? Has my right hon. and learned Friend ever had this examined so as to ensure that, by and large, people who are transferred get the same kind of treatment as that they started with?

I am not absolutely sure

I will let my right hon. and learned Friend know.

—but if she will make it plain to me, as I am sure she will, I will look into the question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why he has refused to include the rebuilding of St. Albans Roman Catholic secondary school in the major school building programme of the Blackburn authority for 1965–66.

The authority gave priority in its 1965–66 proposals to a large county secondary school project which has been approved. It was not possible to include another project of similar size in the same programme.

Is the Minister aware that this county project in Lammack school is designed to replace buildings which were condemned as unsuitable for secondary education 17 years ago, but that equally the St. Albans Roman Catholic Secondary School is urgently needed to replace conditions which, according to his own inspectors' report, are quite intolerable from an educational point of view? Is it not unfair to play off one project against another when both are of such equal and admitted urgency?

The Roman Catholics in the hon. Lady's constituency got a secondary school, St. Mary's, in this year's programme. They are going to get in the year 1966–67 the primary school attached to the one about which she is talking and which is allowed for 1967–68, so that I do not think that they have done very badly.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what investigations are taking place into the theory that petrol fumes may be a primary cause of lung cancer; and if he will make a statement.

There is no evidence to suggest that petrol engine exhaust fumes are an important cause of lung cancer, whether primary or not, but research on the possible effect on health of these and other types of exhaust products continues to be undertaken by the Medical Research Council as part of its programme of work on air pollution.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that pollution from petrol and diesel fumes has increased dramatically in the past few years in urban areas and also that the lung cancer figures for the same areas have increased dramatically? Is not this more than a coincidence? In view of this, does not my right hon. Friend think it important to undertake as intensive an inquiry as the medical profession undertook into the dangers of cigarette smoking?

I am not sure that a professional logician would put the point quite as simply as my hon. Friend has put it. Petrol fumes are more hazardous than diesel fumes in the sense that, unlike diesel fumes, they contain carbon monoxide which is a toxic gas, but there is no evidence that they are more likely to be a cause of lung cancer.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals for improved education facilities have been made to him by the City of Stoke-on-Trent; what provision has been approved by him; to what extent the Newsom and Robbins Reports are to be implemented in the City; and by what dates this will be achieved.

The authority has made plans for the introduction of comprehensive schools and the establishment of a junior college. Notices of the proposals under Section 13 of the Education Act, 1944, have been published and the statutory period for objection is now running. I cannot therefore make any further comment on this.

Am I to take that Answer to mean that the Minister is going to co-operate with the local education authority to the maximum extent in order to get the best results?

It means that I hope that I will co-operate with the local education authority and that the local education authority will co-operate with me to get the best results.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many schemes have been submitted to him by the Lancashire Education Department for the replacement of unsatisfactory primary schools; how many of the classes in the schools concerned contain more than 30 pupils; how many such schemes have been approved; how many are within industrial areas; by what date such new primary schools will be provided; and by what date the Newsom Report will be implemented in Lancashire.

The authority proposed 27 projects for the 1965–68 major programmes which would result in the replacement of existing primary accommodation. The schools had about 140 classes with more than 30 pupils. Twelve projects have been approved. Of these 10 are in urban areas. I cannot forecast when they will be completed, but it normally takes about 18 months to build a small primary school. The recommendations of the Newsom Committee which call for local initiative are not of the kind which can be implemented by specific dates.

Is the Minister aware that those of us who have spent our lives in the industrial conditions existing in this part of the country, and our relatives who live there, are affected by the terribly black legacy that has been left to us? Should not this large industrial area be given complete priority in order to bring about the standards which the people deserve and which our economy demands?

The hon. Member's interest in his old county is well appreciated, but I rather doubt whether complete priority given to it would meet with the complete approval of other hon. Members.

I am not concerned about other hon. Members. I want to make it quite clear on behalf of the people whether it is the Minister's desire to implement the Newsom Report as quickly as possible.

Yes, we have accepted the main recommendation and have said exactly what we are going to do about it, but the hon. Member asked me about its implementation in a particular area. I understood him to mean, not the raising of the school-leaving age which must be done on a national scale and by a date which has been announced, but the many other recommendations which do not all allow of a specific date to be mentioned. For instance, there is the in-service training for teachers and so on.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the national shortage of speech therapists in the School Health Service, particularly in the City of Leeds; what action he is taking to remedy this; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, there is a shortage of speech therapists, especially in the North. The training course at Manchester is now producing fully-trained speech therapists. Further developments including a three-year degree course at Newcastle University are being planned, and I have the position under review.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that until very recently in the City of Leeds the education authority had no speech therapists and that only through the greatest of effort were the services of three obtained? Could he inform the House what is the major factor causing the shortage of speech therapists?

Yes, my Department has begun discussions for that reason with the Leeds education authority about the establishment of another training course for this particular purpose. The shortage is mainly in the North, for reasons which are not peculiar to speech therapists.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that one of the causes of the shortage is that the remuneration of speech therapists compares very unfavourably with that of others in the education service and that this arises out of the complications in the Health Service, by which they are employed? Would he and the Minister of Health meet one or two of us from this side of the House to discuss the problem?

The question of salary scales for speech therapists, as the hon. Member suggested, is a matter for the Whitley Council for the Health Service, and any specific question related to that part of the matter would have to be put to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Would it be of advantage to the right hon. and learned Member if he obtained the services of a speech therapist in order to avoid some of the speeches he has made recently?

I should hope that they would be more generally heard and more generally understood.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is satisfied that the Atomic Energy Authority is properly equipped to exploit the export potential of advanced British nuclear reactors, techniques, and material; and if he will make a statement.

The Authority's main task in relation to exports is to support the engineering industry's efforts to open up markets abroad for reactor systems, knowledge and material developed in the course of our own nuclear programme. I am satisfied that it is well equipped to do this. It has also had considerable success on its own account in selling radioisotopes, fuel and reprocessing services in overseas markets.

Will my right hon. Friend answer two points? First, we have a great deal to sell, particularly in connection with advanced gas-cooled reactors and fast breeder reactors. Secondly, our American competitors are well ahead of us in this high pressure national salesmanship, as is shown in the aviation industry. Will he look at this matter again, because as he will appreciate from having been to America, his Department is not geared to a specific export drive?

I shall gladly look at any evidence my hon. and gallant Friend chooses to send to me, but I should point out that for some years now the Authority has been the largest exporter of radioisotopes in the world and has a considerably encouraging record in the export of fuel elements and other special materials.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is now able to announce his decision to set up an inquiry into medical education; and what form the inquiry will take.

No, Sir, but my right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement very shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in deciding the future primary and secondary school building programme, he took into account the present population and the planned future population, including overspill, occupying both local authority and private development housing, in the parish of Burntwood, Staffordshire, and at Hammerwich.

Yes, Sir.

In view of that Answer, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that in this area there is acute disquiet about the congestion in classes in primary schools, especially where even under the development plan the numbers in classes are above the maximum permissible figure? Is he aware that I have today received from Staffordshire education department a revised calculation factor for estimating overspill population coming in and that, as a result of this, there is a serious deficit of primary school places?

As the hon. Member may know, Staffordshire has put to us two primary objects for 1965–68, one for 1966–67 which would have added only 16 places, which my right hon. Friend was not able to approve. The other is the Chase Terrace Primary School which was put forward by the authority initially for 1967–68, but which, in view of the new evidence, it has asked my right hon. and learned Friend to consider earlier. This he is prepared to do.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will advance the starting date of the conversion of the Chase Terrace secondary modern school, Staffordshire, to a six-form comprehensive school, in view of the rapidly increasing population, including overspill and private development, and the limited share of grammar school places received by pupils in the area concerned, and in the light of the recommendation in 1960 by Her Majesty's Inspector.

My right hon. Friend can make no additions to the major school building programme for 1965–66, which is fully committed. He is quite willing to consider a proposal from the Staffordshire authority to exchange the Chase Terrace project which is in its 1966–67 programme for any other in its 1965–66 programme of the same value.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is absolutely unreasonable and that there is some evidence to suggest that there has not been a recent survey of the number of children in this area following the arrival of large numbers of overspill population? In view of this, is he aware that there is no freedom of choice at all for children who have achieved good results in the 11-plus examination and there is considerable frustration as a result of the tardy programme for the establishment of this comprehensive school?

These decisions are taken only on the basis of the best evidence available. On the basis of that evidence my right hon. and learned Friend was satisfied that the inclusion of the Chase Terrace project in 1966–67 would meet the area's needs.

Am I to take it from the Minister's reply that he is offering our local authority a choice of projects and that if it gives up something which is already included in the proposed building programme it can substitute something in its stead? After hearing all the representations made to him from the county and constituency level and knowing that this is an expanding area with considerable overspill populations, is this all that he can offer us?

I can assure the hon. Lady that the figures that the local education authority has collected have been very carefully studied by my right hon. and learned Friend, but the 1965–66 programme is now fully committed and it is not possible to add further projects in that particular area.

On a point of order. In view of the nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) how many classes are teaching shorthand and typewriting, respectively, in maintained secondary schools; and how many teachers who are employed to teach these subject are certificated as teachers and hold a teacher's certificate recognised by him for the teaching of such skills; how many are not certificated teachers but hold a recognised certificate for such skills; and how many hold no such certificate;

I am sorry to tell my hon. Friend that the information requested is not available.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend recognise that the information which is unofficially available is that there is an immense shortage of such qualified teachers and that with the present policy of seeking to have qualified teachers in the service, it is inevitable that something will have to be done about the training of teachers of shorthand and typewriting, seeing that the present annual out-turn is not enough, with marriage, even to keep abreast of the deficiency? Will he kindly look into this?

I will certainly consider any material which my hon. Friend puts in my hands.

Is not this a serious reflection on the Department's education statistics?

I do not think so. The situation is that up to now there has not existed any statistical information about subjects taught in schools. A pilot survey of 13 schools is at present in progress and may be followed by a broadly-based sample survey. At further education establishments, which may be more important in this connection and certainly not less important, details are collected only of courses leading to recognised qualifications, and shorthand and typewriting courses are not within this category. Local and area colleges of further education, numbering about 500, and evening institutes, of which there are 7,700, normally provide classes in shorthand and typing.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will temporarily revise the pension and salary arrangements for superannuated teachers in order to give a substantial financial inducement for retired teachers to continue in teaching.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will open negotiations towards adjusting the earnings and pension rights of retired teachers in such a way as to attract those willing to return to employment during the current shortage of teachers.

I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given by my right hon. Friend, the Chief Secretary, to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) on Tuesday last.

Surely the right hon. and learned Gentleman wants to retain more superannuated teachers in the schools and is abysmally failing to do so. Yesterday, he was anxious to clear away cobwebs in the procedure of the House and to put right an odd anomaly. Does he not appreciate that this question is full of anomalies. Will not he apply his mind to it and discuss it with several of my hon. Friends in order to get something done?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it has been considered and that many minds have been applied to it. I do not think that it is quite as simple as he says. Of course I will reexamine the matter yet once again, perhaps now, or at any rate if further information is available.

As he is responsible for educational standards and as this is a possible source of supply in the acute shortage which faces us over the next decade, at least for the schools, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that he must stand up to his colleagues in the Treasury who are concerned with other branches of the public service and point out that in the interests of education something should be done?

I understand the hon. Lady's point of view, but I do not think that it is quite as simple as that. Retired teachers now normally work to about half-time without any loss of pension. One has to consider the situation of teachers who retire and go back full-time, which is the main subject. Of course it is arguable that some more would go back full-time—more than now in spite of the strong financial incentives which there already are to make them do it—but, equally, if the regulations were changed, some, perfectly properly, would resign altogether on Monday and begin again on Tuesday, and no additional teachers would thereby be provided while a certain amount of extra expenditure would be incurred.

Cannot the right hon. and learned Gentleman do something about those who have retired at a salary level which has since been exceeded by those doing; comparable work? It is one of the greatest sources of irritation that future earnings should be determined by the level of salary at the time one leaves the service. This would not apply to the persons who, as he suggested, might resign on one day and start the next. If this matter were resolved, it would very much alleviate the situation.

I am obliged to the hon. Lady. I will look at all these matters yet once again. What she has said is a narrower issue that that put forward in the two Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science from what date he proposes to approve the increase in the dependants' allowances for university, training college, and other students in higher education; and by how much.

The rates of allowances to students' dependants and the general value of the level of awards are, determined after taking into account the advice of the Standing Advisory Committee on Grants to Students. This Committee has only recently begun a review of the rates fixed in 1962 and its recommendations will be considered as soon as they are received.

Is it a fact that the Committee will not be able to make a recommendation in time for the next academic year? If so, this is very serious because it must be agreed that some of these students would not otherwise be brought into the teaching and other professions. Here is a pool of recruitment to teaching which is very much required, namely, mature people with families.

The hon. Gentleman is quite correct in the first half of what he says. There is no desire to delay this matter, but it is for the Standing Advisory Committee to advise how much should be paid to the dependants of students. The current review is concerned with a number of matters, including those determining in what circumstances the dependants of students should qualify for allowances, but the issue of how much is a matter on which we must await the advice of the Standing Advisory Committee, which will be considered as soon as it is received.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of total medical research expenditure is incurred in Scotland; and to what extent this proportion has increased in the last 10 years.

About 10½ per cent. of Government financial expenditure on medical research in 1963–64 was incurred in Scotland. The corresponding figure for the beginning of the decade 1954–64 is 9 per cent. These figures are approximate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman regard this trend as satisfactory? Is the proportion which Scotland is getting increasing satisfactorily, and, if not, can he say what the Government's policy is for improving and speeding up Scotland's share?

Considering Scotland's share of the population of the United Kingdom, I consider that both the absolute figures which I have quoted and the trend are reasonable.

Should not the interests of medical education push aside these rather nationalistic issues and should we not concern ourselves with figures not related to population but to the distribution and output of medical schools and existing medical facilities, and should not the present Scottish proportion therefore be higher?

If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on medical schools, which is an issue rather wider than that in the original Question, we will try to answer it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now make a statement on the recommendations of the Padmore Report on marine nuclear propulsion.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has now studied the official report on marine reactor research; and if he will make a statement on Government policy towards the possible courses of action proposed by the working group.

I cannot yet add to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) on 18th June or to that given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport yesterday to the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall).

Is not that a very disappointing Answer? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that since his right hon. and learned Friend in the last debate on this subject bolstered his argument by using the Padmore Report, which had not then been published, opinion on his own side has joined the Opposition in feeling that the Government must make some decision about this soon? Is it not perfectly reasonable to ask the Minister to make a statement before the House rises at the end of July?

I was prepared to answer in reply to supplementary questions that this Report was submitted to Ministers at the beginning of April. On all accounts, this is a difficult problem in which the issues are well-balanced. The Government obviously want to base their decision on all the relevant considerations, but my right hon. and learned Friend would hope that it would be possible to announce a decision before the Summer Recess.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has just said, promising a decision before the Summer Recess. Will he also promise that the House will have an opportunity to discuss the matter before the House rises?

I was careful to say on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend that I would hope that it would be possible. It is our hope and intention if at all possible to announce the decision before the Summer Recess, but a debate is clearly a matter for the usual channels and the Leader of the House.

Would my right hon. Friend take into consideration the fact that an experiment to prove or disprove various theories would be a very great advantage in the future? Practice is much better than theory.

I see my hon. Friend's point. There is, frankly, a good deal of money at stake here. This is a major decision one way or the other. I can say that my right hon. and learned Friend will fully bear in mind the concern of both sides of the House that the House should have an opportunity of considering this matter once again before we rise.

The right hon. Gentleman has expressed a hope. Would he give an undertaking that the Government will make a statement before the House rises?

I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will consider it. I would prefer not to go further this afternoon. I hope I have made it plain that my right hon. and learned Friend understands the importance the House attaches to this.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what improvements in vacation grants for students are proposed for the current year.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends, to publish the revised university and other awards regulations.

I hope to lay before the Summer Recess regulations amending in certain respects the existing provisions for awards to students as from 1st September, 1964.

Is the right hon. Gentle-aware that in April, 1963, when I raised the case of Mr. Dinnis of Blackburn in the House, who was unable to obtain any grant for his wife and children, I was promised that there would be an early review? Is the right hon Gentleman aware that it is very difficult for people like Mr. Dinnis to plan their academic future, because they cannot face another academic year on £6 10s. a week? Can we have an earlier statement of the outcome of the review?

I can tell the hon. Lady, and also the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White), that certain issues in relation to dependency have been identified in the course of this review and the solution to these is being pursued independently of these Regulations. I am well aware of the cases that cause most concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House.

May I be clear about what the Minister's answer meant? Does he mean that for this coming vacation there will be additional vacation grants, as opposed to the dependants' allowances which are the subject of the Question of my hon Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)? If these Regulations are to be enforced from 1st September, do they run for the coming vacation?

I do not want to anticipate the results of the review, but I think I could say, without indiscretion, that certain matters relating to vacation grants have been under consideration and any changes made as a result of the review will affect the next academic year.

That is not the question. My question was about the coming vacation, because, if the grants are not available for this coming vacation, students will have to make arrangements to take paid work, on which the Association of University Teachers and the National Union of Students have made most emphatic representations to the right hon Gentleman's Department. This applies to this year, not what happens in the next academic year.

I am in a position to say something about this, but I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive me if this afternoon I answer by saying that it is proposed that any change in the provisions should take effect from 1st September.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, in view of the fact that in Staffordshire 42 per cent. of the senior classes and 20 per cent. of the junior classes are oversized, if he will reconsider the local authority's proposals for a larger school building Programme in the light of the need to attract more teachers.

No, Sir. The Staffordshire authority's quota of teachers and their school building programme for the two and a half years 1965 to 1968 represent a fair share of the resources available for England and Wales as a whole.

Has the Secretary of State taken into account the factor of negligence and backwardness in the past? Is it not a very serious matter that there is in Staffordshire such a high proportion of over-sized secondary classes? Is he aware that one of the main problems in attracting more teachers to Staffordshire is the fact that there are so many old buildings and so much obsolete equipment? Therefore, would he consider Staffordshire's proposals in the light of these facts?

I am always prepared to consider proposals where they are not fully committed, but the proportion of over-sized senior classes in Staffordshire in 1963 was less than in England and Wales as a whole—42·3 per cent. against 43·6 per cent.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in one part of the area to which my hon. Friend is referring, as a result of overspill the local population has doubled, and there is no evidence to suggest that his Department is fully informed, for instance, of the case of private development building where the number of children just does not seem to be known?

My reply referred to Staffordshire as a whole. If the hon. Gentleman puts material before me which we have not yet got, it will be considered.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will publish in HANSARD a nominal roll of the 114 schools in condemned or obsolete buildings which remain for replacement in Staffordshire, together with a list of the dates on which each building was first condemned as unsuitable.

No, Sir. The schools to be replaced fall short of the statutory building regulations but are not condemned or obsolete in any technical sense.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman care to explain exactly what that means, in the light of the Answer I was given a short time ago? Is it not a fact that there are over 100 schools in Staffordshire which are condemned in this way? The rate of replacement is very small and very slow indeed. Would he care to look at this matter again?

If the hon. Gentleman asks me, of course, I will look at it again. I have been at great pains to discover whether his condemnation that buildings are of an obsolete character was a correct description of these schools. I have been informed that it is not.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the total amount spent annually on all branches of oceanography in the United Kingdom.

The total expenditure in the United Kingdom in 1964–65 on all branches of oceanography and marine biology is estimated to be about £2·17 million.

How does this compare with the expenditure of other maritime nations? In view of the undoubtedly increased importance of oceanography from the commercial point of view, as well as from the defence point of view, would my right hon. Friend re-examine this figure and see whether there is not a case for augmenting it?

I will certainly consider the question of what is spent by other countries. This figure excludes major capital items and also excludes the costs of university departments met from University Grants Committee funds. I will gladly see if I can give my hon. Friend further information.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many teachers were employed in maintained primary and secondary schools in the West Riding of Yorkshire in 1951; and how many are now employed.

The numbers in the West Riding local education authority area were 8,300 in January, 1951, and 10,800 in January, 1963. The figures for 1964 are not yet available.

Are the figures which my right hon. and learned Friend has given for the West Riding of Yorkshire more or less favourable than the general level throughout the United Kingdom?

I fear that I could not answer that without notice.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there was an acute shortage of teachers in the West Riding of Yorkshire in 1963, the figures being 500 for primary schools and 1,500 for secondary schools? What is he doing about this?

I think that the teacher training and supply position is well known. What we are doing is to treble the output of teacher training colleges between 1957 and 1970. The output has already been doubled.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give the breakdown in the figures he gave between men and women?

No, not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many maintained primary and secondary schools have been completed in the West Riding of Yorkshire since 1951; and how many have been modernised.

One hundred new primary schools; and 42 new secondary schools have been completed, including first instalments. Two primary and 6 secondary schools; have been remodelled, and major extensions and adaptation work have also been carried out at 5 other primary and 32 secondary schools.

I congratulate the Government on the progress which has been made during the last few years. Can my right hon. and learned Friend give me the assurance that still further progress will be made during the next period of office of the Conservative Party?

Yes, Sir.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in the Colne Valley constituency of the West Riding of Yorkshire more than three-quarters of the primary schools were built in the nineteenth century, more than one-half of them are dependent on outside lavatories, and more than one-third of them are without a staff room? Three such primary schools in this West Riding constituency are dependent on outside chemical closets. Does the Secretary of State think that he is entitled to be complacent?

The West Riding of Yorkshire has a building programme of £3·8 million for 1965–66 and about £3·7 million for 1966–67.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what facilities he proposes to provide for the reorganisation of secondary education in Thornaby-on-Tees in the North Riding of Yorkshire, in view of the reorganisation proposed for the secondary schools in Middlesbrough used by Thornaby children.

I understand that the Middlesbrough local education authority intends to consult the North Riding local education authority about its secondary reorganisation proposals in so far as they affect Thornaby children.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that this well illustrates the difficulties into which both local authorities and the public are plunged because of the confusion in the mind of the Government about comprehensive secondary education? Is he aware that where the education provisions of neighbouring local authorities overlap and progress is made at a different rate, very great hardship and injustice is imposed on a large number of parents? Is he not going to tell the House of any Government policy to deal with these problems, wherever they occur?

I would be prepared to concede that some of the problems the hon. Member has in mind might be avoided if the Government were to impose comprehensive secondary schools on every local education authority, but I understand that that would give rise to far more serious problems.

In view of the debate we had last night, will the Government consider publishing a White Paper on the reorganisation of secondary education?

I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will consider that suggestion.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science by how much the expansion plans accepted by existing universities have exceeded the estimates made by the Robbins Committee; how much of this expansion has been met by agreement temporarily to overload existing staff and buildings; and how many student places are to be provided by new facilities approved since the publication of the Robbins Report.

The additional capital and recurrent provision for the universities announced by my right hon. Friend on 5th February and 14th May and estimated at a total of about £75 million was determined in the light of recommendations 170 to 173 of the Robbins Report relating to the short-term emergency. The Government recognise, as the Report itself states, that the achievement of the new objectives will mean improvisation and pressure, but it is not possible to quantify this in relation to this additional expenditure.

Cannot the Minister give the House any figures at all in view of the widespread impression that exists in the universities that they have squeezed their accommodation and staff rather harder than the Robbins Committee expected in order to be able to cope with the bulge? Is he aware that they are feeling that the Government are not meeting this by a comparably generous and vigorous effort to meet the demand for higher education?

As the hon. Member will no doubt recall, the extra capital allocation to the universities as a result of recommendations 170 to 173 was £36 million, which was larger than the biggest single normal annual allocation to the universities. I suggest that, really and truly, the Government have met the demand of the increased programme and have fulfilled the pledges and promises set out in last autumn's White Paper.

Can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether, in effect, the Government are immediately approving all the recommendations made by the University Grants Committee as soon as applications for expansion are lodged by universities? Is it the position that applications from universities for expansion are in certain cases holding up some of this expansion, and not the Government's decision on the recommendations?

The distribution of the additional grants authorised by the Government between individual universities is, as my hon. Friend will be aware, the responsibility of the University Grants Committee, but all the announcements about the extra capital and recurrent grants to be made available to enable the Robbins 1967–68 target to be fulfilled have now been made.

Is it not a fact that what has been requested by the universities in terms of both capital and recurrent sums to pay for the Robbins expansion has by no means been conceded by the Government?

The answer is that the University Grants Committee asked the universities how far they would be prepared to contribute towards the new objectives. The offers made totalled considerably larger numbers than Lord Robbins suggested in his Report. I have been asked in the Question to quantify the element of overcrowding, which it is not possible for me to do. I therefore pointed out that the extra capital sum allocated was very considerable and, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, this is true of extra capital and recurrent amounts as well.

I asked whether the amounts requested by the universities to fulfil their obligations under the expansion plan were greater than what the right hon. Gentleman has conceded.

The offers of the universities added up to considerably greater numbers than Lord Robbins proposed. I have said that the Government are making sufficient special capital and recurrent sums available to enable the Robbins target to be fulfilled, and to enable the Government promises made last autumn to be implemented.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made to implement the plan he announced recently for setting up industrial liaison centres in colleges of advanced technology and technical colleges.

Industrial liaison officers have now been appointed in four colleges: these are in addition to the five appointments previously made at Scottish colleges. The scheme has been accepted at nine other colleges and recruitment is proceeding there. Preliminary negotiations are in progress with nine further colleges.

While congratulating my right hon. Friend on the progress which has been made, and which I am sure will be greeted favourably outside the House, may I ask on the question of recruitment, to what extent these centres have been able to attract people from industry as visiting professors?

Perhaps my hon. Friend would put down a Question on that specific issue, but to the best of my knowledge recruitment is going well.