asked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of work on the HS681 transport aircraft is now to be sub-contracted to Short Bros. and Harland.

It will be a substantial proportion, but I cannot be more specific until the detailed planning of the work is complete.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that while his visit last week to Short Bros. and Harland is welcomed, and while I welcome the amount of work placed there by the Government, anxiety is still felt by that firm, particularly concerning design? Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to ensure that sufficient design work is placed with Short Bros. and Harland to ensure a balanced production unit there in the years to come?

I am well aware of my hon. Friend's anxieties and those of Short's. What I can say at this stage is that Short's will share in the construction of the development batch of the HS681 aircraft as well as of the subsequent production batch.

asked the Minister of Aviation what discussions he has had with Short Bros. and Harland regarding the development and construction of a twin jet, 40-seat passenger aircraft which could replace the DC3 in airline service; and what decision he has taken.

Short Bros. and Harland have given my Department a preliminary brochure about this project. The company is now working out its plans in more detail. I understand that it may put some proposals to me shortly.

In thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware of the wide potential market for an aircraft of this type and whether he will do all he can to expedite the work of his Department so that a speedy decision may be reached on this project?

I have not yet seen a comprehensive estimate of market studies, but projects of a somewhat similar character are planned by other manufacturers. We shall certainly await with great interest any proposals that Short Bros. and Harland make to us.

asked the Minister of Aviation what educational requirements his Department makes for male and female air traffic control assistants, respectively.

I have sent the hon. and learned Member a copy of the relevant requirements. The rules are the same for both men and women.

Does the Minister realise that the United Kingdom is rich in the various melodious ways of speaking the English language and that his prejudice against the beautiful, harmonious Scottish accent is unworthy of him and is an instance of race discrimination on his part? Will he change this and see that justice is done to Scottish applicants for posts such as those mentioned in the Question?

Whatever one might think of the merits of the melodies of the Scottish language, I assure the hon. and learned Member that there is no melodious discrimination and that an essential requirement is that a candidate should have O-level qualification in English—I repeat, in English.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that, save for one or two parts of the Highlands of Scotland, the Scottish language is English?

Would my hon. Friend think of asking the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) to substitute an Irish accent?

The Minister cannot ask questions of Members.

asked the Minister of Aviation how much was spent by British European Airways and the British Overseas Airways Corporation, respectively, during their last financial year on aviation kerosene.

In the financial year 1963–64, B.O.A.C. spent £12,483,505 and B.E.A. spent £4,854,000 on aviation kerosene.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that these figures show that fuel costs represent a large proportion of the Corporations' operating expenditure? Does he not further agree, in view of the report in 1962 on the relative safety of aviation kerosene and J.P.4, that it is most unfortunate that our nationalised Corporations should be at a disadvantage compared with their foreign competitors by reason of the fact that they use this safer fuel? What additional measures is he taking beyond referring this report to I.C.A.O. to make sure that foreign operators coming into this country use the safer fuel?

It is largely a matter for the airlines concerned. We have, however, as the hon. Member said, referred the question to the I.C.A.O. British airlines in fact use very little J.P.4. B.O.A.C. spent only £6,000 on it in the financial year 1963–64 and B.E.A. used none at all. If use were to increase we should have to look at the regulations.

Would the hon. Gentleman appreciate that what I am asking him to do is to use his influence with I.C.A.O. to see that foreign operators also use the safer fuel so that our Corporations are not at a disadvantage compared with their competitors?

We have endeavoured to use our influence but have not been successful.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps have been taken, or are envisaged, regarding the subcontracting of design work in connection with the Concord project to British aircraft concerns other than the British Aircraft Corporation.

There are no plans to sub-contract work on the design of the airframe. In many cases, however, subcontracts to other firms for the supply of equipment will involve design work.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask him whether he would agree, particularly in the light of his recent visit to the Belfast aircraft factory—which visit was very much appreciated—and in view of the very large sums of Government money being poured into the Concord project, that there may be a case, either now or at some stage in the future, for some sub-contracting of design work to the firm, bearing in mind particularly what my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) said just now about the acknowledged need for retaining a design team?

I am sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate that the essential thing with the Concord is to get on with it quickly in view of possible foreign competition and that any subdivision of design work could lead to delay.

asked the Minister of Aviation which town in South-East England has been selected as an experimental area to judge the effect of the noise and reverberation of the sound-barrier-breaking Concord airliner on the physical and psychological reactions of the population.

No decision to carry out an exercise of this kind has been made.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, when a decision is reached, he will arrange for soundproofing of hospitals, schools, old people's homes, and houses immediately under the route, and secondly, whether he can dispel the rumour that the town of Slough, which is the nearest town west of London Airport, and is on the Atlantic route, is being made a guinea pig for this experiment?

No decision has been arrived at. The article in the Press, which I did see and to which I think the hon. Member is referring, was lacking in strict accuracy. The proposal for soundproofing is a different question, and if the hon. Member will put down a question about it I will endeavour to answer it.

In this connection, may I ask my hon. Friend who it is in his Department who authorises the breaking of the sound barrier, and what control there is over the sound barrier not being broken without permission?

I authorise the breaking of the sound barrier, and I can assure my hon. Friend that it is not broken by any aircraft under our control without permission.

Does my hon. Friend realise that the article in the Press has caused concern to towns on the southeast coast, and will he give an assurance that before any experiments are likely to be carried out, plenty of notice will be given to those concerned?

Yes, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of us would not agree that there was any question of permitting a guinea pig operation on any town in Britain? In a comparatively small island in which towns are so closely interconnected, it would be a very different proposition from Oklahoma or places of that sort. Will he give an undertaking that there will be no question of any town being made a guinea pig in this respect?

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Aviation what progress has now been made with the Concord project; when the first aircraft is due to fly; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Aviation what is the present estimated date by which he expects the Concord aircraft to be in commercial service; and what is the present state of firm orders for this aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a further statement on the progress of the Concord project.

The first flight of the Concord is expected in 1967. Entry into airline service is forecast for 1971. Provisional orders for the Concord so far number 43. The British and French Governments have approved the modifications to the original design proposed by the Companies on 6th May. These provide for the up-rating of the engine and extension of the wing area and will result in increased range and payload.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that interesting and encouraging statement. Does he agree that if Britain is to be in a position to take full advantage of the opportunities for world leadership in aviation which will be provided by the Concord development, the essential condition is the continued existence of a British aircraft industry which is strong, prosperous and, above all, confident? Will he keep this important consideration before his colleagues, particularly during the discussions about the future of the VC10?

I assure my right hon. and learned Friend that these considerations are not only very much in my mind but also in the minds of my colleagues.

Is there not some evidence that the original figures given by the right hon. Gentleman for the Concord project were a grievous underestimate? Could not he, either now or at an early opportunity, give revised figures for the total cost of the project and for our share in it?

There can be no doubt that the modifications the two Governments have agreed to will considerably increase the cost of the Concord. The figures I have are that the estimate will rise to about £140 million for the United Kingdom.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many aircraft it will be necessary to have ordered in order to make this project anything like an economic proposition? Is he satisfied that the French nationalised aircraft industry is efficient enough to carry this project through?

I have no criticisms to make of our French colleagues, who are working admirably and closely with us. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir. W. Churchill) once remarked, the Almighty did not see fit to make Frenchmen in the image of Englishmen, so perhaps we proceed by different paths to the same objective.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question? I asked him whether he could give an estimate of the number of Concords required to be ordered to make the project an economic proposition.

This will, of course, depend on the price ultimately charged. The present concept is that the cost will be about £5 million an aircraft.

When did the right hon. Gentleman know of the new estimate which is nearly double the one he previously gave?

When the French Minister and I finally reviewed and agreed the modifications last weekend.

asked the Minister of Aviation when he now expects to receive the Lang Committee Report on the Ferranti contract; and whether he will ask for an interim report to be made available to enable a debate to take place, as the full report is not likely to be available before the summer recess.

As I told the House on 3rd June, Sir John Lang is producing an interim report. Our object in asking Sir John Lang to split the report in this way was to allow time for the House to discuss it.

Yes, but can we be given an assurance by the Minister, in view of the scandal which has now been announced about the withdrawal of the Bloodhound, that ample opportunity will be given for a debate on this interim report before the House goes up for this Summer Recess and that there will not be, as on past occasions when there have been such Government scandals, an announcement made after the House has got up?

I really do not understand the hon. Member's reference to a scandal about the withdrawal of the Bloodhound. Bloodhound I has given good service for a number of years. Bloodhound II is the most successful missile of its kind produced in this or indeed any other country, and it has been bought by two of the most objective customers, Sweden and Switzerland, who are under no pressure to buy British, American or anything else.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give a guarantee that the interim report will be presented to this Parliament?

I cannot guarantee, because I am not writing the report, but this was the object of calling for an interim report.

Would the Minister give the House an assurance that at least the House will have an opportunity to see the Report before it is leaked to Mr. Chapman Pincher?

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will now consider taking steps to relieve the British Overseas Airways Corporation of their obligations in regard to the accumulated deficit, in view of the finding of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries in paragraph 328 of its recent Report; and if he will make a statement.

Perhaps the hon. Member would await the statement I hope to make in any debate there may be on the Select Committee's Report.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have waited for a long while, and can he this afternoon give us a little encouragement and an indication of what his attitude is? Does he agree with the Select Committee's contention that there can be no financial reality in B.O.A.C.'s returns till this legacy of the past is removed? Does he think it must be removed at some time or another? Does he not think that now is the right time to do so?

I will, naturally, consider carefully the views the hon. Member has expressed, but, frankly, I think that these are very complex matters not easily dealt with by Question and Answer. When the time comes to debate the Select Committee's Report, this will be the time at which to express the Government's view.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many persons between the ages of 15 to 18 years are employed by British European Airways and the British Overseas Airways Corporation, respectively; and how many are granted day release.

I understand that 362 are employed by British European Airways and 343 by the British Overseas Airways Corporation. Of these, 120 and 117 respectively are granted either single day release or release in connection with, for example, sandwich courses.

Though these are relatively satisfactory figures, is there not a case for making day release compulsory?

I agree that these are relatively satisfactory figures, but I do not think that the supplementary question which the hon. Member poses arises out of this Question.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will take steps to regulate the operations of companies offering chartered flights, and to protect passengers from companies which fail to carry out the services for which they have been paid.

Charter flights undertaken by aircraft on the British or Colonial register are regulated by the Air Transport Licensing Board under the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Act, 1960. Those undertaken by other aircraft are regulated by the Ministry of Aviation under the Air Navigation Order, 1960.

Yes, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that since then there has been considerable dissatisfaction as a result of the uncertainty about these flights taking place? Does he realise that we have had several complaints from people travelling from the County of Lanark? Did he notice the incident which occurred at Prestwick as recently as the beginning of last week, when people were kept all day and practically all night on the plane and off the plane before their fears were put to rest and at last the flight was able to take place? Ought not the general public to have some protection against those types of people and incidents?

The fact is that the general public have their legal rights of contract under whatever term they book their passage. But failure to carry out flights may derive from circumstances outside the control of the carrier—for example, safety considerations, or even strikes.

Is it not the case, though, that the right hon. Gentleman has allowed an enormous increase in charter flights without proper conditions for safeguarding against variations of these charter flights so far as the general public are concerned?

No.

asked the Minister of Aviation what difficulties now exist regarding the final transfer of Middleton St. George to civilian use; and by what date he anticipates it will be fully operational.

Middleton St. George became a civil aerodrome on 18th April when the Ministry of Aviation took over responsibility for its operation from the Ministry of Defence. The aerodrome is to be sold to the local authorities, as soon as a price is agreed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a good deal of public concern about the apparent difficulties which have arisen over the administration of the new airport, and while the local authorities are moving forward as fast as they can reasonably be expected to do, would he consider the possibility of offering some administrative help if any further delays occur which would prevent scheduled services from starting in the autumn? Also, would he confirm that there has been no variation in the price at which the aerodrome was originally offered to the local authorities?

With regard to the second part of the supplementary question, I think I can confirm that. As regards the first part, staff are being recruited and equipment installed to ensure that, when the airline operators are expected to run scheduled services, the aerodrome will be suitably equipped to accommodate them. What is outstanding is the negotiation over the price, to establish the open market value of the property.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on his discussions with the airlines and aerodrome owners, including local authorities, regarding his proposed new airport charges.

A statement was issued at the conclusion of a meeting which I held with the airlines and aerodrome owners on 18th February. This stated that in the light of the representation then made I had decided to postpone the new arrangements until 1st November, 1964. I will with permission circulate the text in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

What has happened since February? Has the right hon. Gentleman had discussions with the municipal airport owners? Is it not clear that the proposed new charges would have a very serious economic effect on municipal airports since they would lose the passenger service charges, would gain nothing from the technical service charges and would be inhibited from making an appropriate adjustment to their landing fees? In particular, do not the new charges very seriously change the economics of the proposed transfer of Abbots-inch Airport to Glasgow Corporation? Would the right hon. Gentleman say what discussions he has had with Glasgow Corporation in the matter?

We had full discussions in February and have had a number of consultations since then. We are receiving delegations from Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool this month. I understand that they wish to discuss further the effect of the new charges. It is right that we should seek to recover the additional cost of the technical services. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to continue the passenger service charge, which has been a tiresome irritant for a number of years.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one does not mind changes being made in the charges provided that they are not done at the expense of the municipal airport? Is he aware that the new proposals of the Ministry, which are a complete contradiction of the previous policy of imposing only a single landing fee, look rather like a device by the Ministry of Aviation to recover technical service charges not at the expense of the airline operators but at the expense of the municipal airport owners? That is what I am complaining about.

The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the purport of our proposals. What we are seeking to do is to recover the technical service charges from the operators.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many flying clubs are at present operating in the United Kingdom; and how this number compares with that recommended by the Special Advisory Committee on Private Flying in 1947.

The Committee envisaged that up to 100 clubs would be needed to provide adequate coverage of the country as a whole. At the latest count there were 116 flying clubs and 110 flying groups.

While welcoming what my hon. Friend has said, may I ask him if it is not a fact that this country is rather behindhand in its support of private and club flying compared with certain countries, notably France? Would he not agree that in France three times the number of clubs and private aircraft are registered compared with this country?

Yes, Sir. France and some other countries give substantial financial help to flying and gliding clubs, but it is for them to say whether the results justify it. We believe that, while the Government could, and should, do many things to help, the movement must pay its own way. It is also true that in the United States there is more private flying, but in making such comparisons one must take into account the many factors involved, such as distance, weather conditions and availability of other means of transport.

Before the war flying clubs were encouraged for reasons of national defence. Would the hon. Gentleman say whether that type of consideration is maintained in the light of the technical advance of other weapons?

I am afraid that it is not.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many of the recommendations of the 1947 Special Advisory Committee on Private Flying have since been implemented in whole or in part; and if he will make a statement.

The Government of the day found themselves unable to offer the extensive financial assistance to flying and gliding clubs recommended by the Committee. The clubs, I am glad to say, did not in the event close down as the Committee feared they would without extensive State assistance.

Does not that one fact show that the Socialist Administration of the day totally failed to carry out the promises given in 1947? Will my hon. Friend say that in the excellent years which I know he has ahead he will do something to right that state of affairs?

After the General Election we shall, of course, continue our policy of encouraging private flying. I think that the report prepared by the Labour Party must be regarded as an imaginative guide rather than a realistic blueprint.

asked the Minister of Aviation what advice he gave to the British Overseas Airways Corporation regarding the cancellation of a number of VC10s they had ordered from the British Aircraft Corporation; how many aircraft are involved; what liability Her Majesty's Government are accepting for losses incurred by British Overseas Airways Corporation; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he has now completed his discussions on the cancellation by the British Overseas Airways Corporation of part of the order for the VC10; and if he will make a statement on the amount of compensation to be paid for each cancelled aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation what compensation he has approved to be paid to the British Aircraft Corporation for the reduction in the British Overseas Airways Corporation order for VC10 aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement with regard to the proposed cancellation of orders for VC10 aircraft by the British Overseas Airways Corporation.

I expect to make a statement shortly.

Again, will not the right hon. Gentleman give us some encouragement as to what that statement may mean? Does he propose to accept the decision of his predecessors that 42 VC10 aircraft should be ordered, and, if so, does it mean that if losses occur in operation, he will help B.O.A.C. to meet them? In view of his interest in the industry and the need to safeguard it, can he assure B.A.C. that the 42 VC10s originally decided upon will now be ordered?

I will, naturally, take careful note of what the hon. Gentleman has said, all the more so in view of his own experience of and close association with the industry. I think it would be wrong to try to anticipate my statement, but, naturally, I stand by what I said in the directive that I gave to Sir Giles Guthrie, in which I asked him to run the airline on a commercial basis but said that if for any reason the Government wished to depart from commercial terms, they would have to accept responsibility for doing so.

First, would the right hon. Gentleman say what he means by "shortly"? This is very relevant considering the likely duration of this Parliament. Secondly, is he aware that this continued unwillingness to stand up to the facts of the situation and grapple with it and reach a decision is causing the greatest damage to airlines, to aircraft manufacture and to the employees in the industry, and that nothing can be calculated to be more harmful than unwillingness to face up to his responsibilities as Minister?

By "shortly" I mean in plenty of time for the hon. Gentleman to deliver the speech which I am sure is already cooking in his breast.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of public concern about this question and that his smart evasive answers are not good enough? Will he say whether he has reflected on the answer he gave in the House a week or so ago, and is he now prepared to confirm that he gave no direction in any form in regard to the original order that B.O.A.C. made for the VC10? Will he also say whether he accepts the principle of paying compensation to B.A.C. if the order is reduced?

In the first part of his supplementary question, the hon. Gentleman asked me off the cuff what direction, if any, was given about the original order. I was not there at the time, and, without consulting the records, I am not in a position to answer the question. If the hon. Gentleman would care to table a Question, I will do my best to answer it, if necessary in a written reply. As to the second part of the supplementary question, I prefer not to anticipate the statement that I shall be making shortly and any discussion of it which may follow.

As the previous Chairman of B.O.A.C. said before the Estimates Committee that the excessive VC10 order was made under pressure, will the right hon. Gentleman in his statement make it quite clear who was responsible for the excessive order? Furthermore, as this appears to be the culmination of an uninterrupted series of blunders which have emerged from the Ministry of Aviation during the Minister's period of office, does he not agree that it is essential that we should have not only an early statement but an early debate so that the general public may be aware of the situation before the General Election?

Any question of a debate is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House and not for me. What I have undertaken to do is to make an early statement, and that I shall do shortly, in plenty of time for the hon. Gentleman to make the speech to which I have referred. I do not necessarily accept the implication of what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I shall try to deal faithfully with the matter when the time comes.

When he is making up his mind on this matter, will my right hon. Friend give the greatest consideration to the effects that a wrong decision will have on the employment of many thousands of aircraft workers in the Weybridge aircraft works? Will he draw the attention of B.O.A.C. to the large posters spread all over London, and possibly all over England, which present the VC10 as triumphant, silent and serene? Will B.O.A.C. support what it says in its posters in its advice to him? Will he bear in mind that this is not a constituency matter, but a matter of grave concern to the future of the British aircraft industry's subsonic aircraft and the complete jeopardy of the long-term future of the industry itself?

I am sure that all concerned, in the Government, in the House, in B.O.A.C. and B.A.C., are well aware of the gravity of the issues at stake. Nobody doubts that the VC10 is an extremely fine aircraft and an outstanding long-range jet.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the longer this matter goes on the greater the apprehension there will be in a vital industry and that the sooner he can resolve this problem the better? Although he may not be able to set a date on which to make his statement, can he at any rate relieve the apprehension, which may cost the jobs of many thousands of people, by giving an approximate date on which he will make his statement? Is he aware that many of us would like to see a very great aircraft preserved? Could he make his statement next week?

I would hope to be able to make it next week, but I would not wish to be committed to that. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do the difficulties of negotiation which sometimes occur in these matters. I agree that the delay can cause disquiet to a number of those concerned, but our prime interest must be to reach the right decision.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I shall try to raise the matter in the House as shortly as possible.

asked the Minister of Aviation what advice was given by Her Majesty's Government to the British Overseas Airways Corporation regarding the size of the original order for the VC10; and what form this took.

asked the Minister of Aviation what instructions were given by Her Majesty's Government to the British Overseas Airways Corporation about the order for the VC10; and to what extent factors other than commercial were taken into consideration in deciding the number of aircraft orders.

No advice or instruction was given to British Overseas Airways Corporation with regard to the VC10 order. This was presented by the Corporation to my predecessor as a commercial requirement.

Does the right hon. Gentleman want us to accept that as a complete, full and frank answer which would differentiate somewhat from previous answers? Is he saying to us that no advice of any kind was given and that the Corporation was left completely unaware of the thinking of the Ministry at this time?

Any different shades of meaning which may be in the hon. Member's mind would be better discussed in full context rather than in question and answer. If we come to debate the Report of the Select Committee, that will be the time. The answer I have given is, to the best of my knowledge and understanding, fully accurate.

Is the right hon. Member aware that, in the Report of the Select Committee, it is confirmed that a former Chairman of B.O.A.C. said that he was under strong pressure to order VC10s because of the Minister's interest in protecting B.A.C.? As this scandal is likely to out-Ferranti Ferranti, is he aware that the House will expect a far fuller account of the relations between B.O.A.C. and the Minister on this subject?

I gave my answer, of course, with full knowledge of what is said in the Report.

Is it not the case that the Minister has to apply to the Treasury for loans to purchase aircraft and, under Statute, must make out his case to the Treasury? Is he now saying that he made a case for loans for these aircraft without taking full responsibility for the desirability of the project?

That raises rather different issues but, again, we might ventilate them in the debate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, if he studies the evidence laid before the Select Committee, he will find nothing in it to support the allegation made by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse)?

indicated assent.

asked the Minister of Aviation when he intends to bring Stansted Airport into use as the third London airport; and when he expects the new access route to the airport to be started.

The Committee appointed to examine the need for a third airport to serve London estimated that this would be required by about 1973. The provision of the new motorway to Stansted is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. I understand that it is hoped that work will start in 1968 or 1969.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Aviation Traders intend to close one of the hangars at Stansted next September, which will cause the redundancy of some 90 skilled maintenance workers? Could he co-operate with the company concerned with a view to diverting some of the work from airfields which are understaffed to Stansted in order to retain this nucleus of highly-skilled manpower, and will he reconsider his decision and redevelop this airport at a much earlier date?

I have already had representations on these matters, notably from my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, but if the hon. Gentleman likes to add to them, I will certainly consider them. I am considering the others now.

asked the Minister of Aviation what contribution his Department makes to the provision of air services to remote areas of the country which would not otherwise be served by modern means of communication.

We provide airfields in the Scottish Highlands and Islands and in the Scilly Islands. Assistance has also been given indirectly by help with the development of aircraft suitable for use on feeder services or in less densely populated areas.

I thank my hon. Friend for that very helpful reply. How many modern aircraft are used on these services and roughly how many passengers a year travel on them?

On the Highlands and Islands route there is the Herald, into which the Government have put £1,100,000, and on the Scilly Isles route there is the S61 helicopter, which is costing the Government up to £75,000. About 6,000 people used the Scilly Isles service in the first six weeks of operation and B.E.A. estimates that about 40,000 people will use it over the whole year. In the past year about 129,000 people used the Highlands and Islands services.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the remote parts of the country mentioned in the Question include the north of Aberdeenshire, which is suffering from the ravages of Dr. Beeching's closures? What steps is he taking to ensure that communications in these areas are maintained as they have been heretofore?

I have every confidence that the right steps will be taken, because my right hon. Friend is going there next weekend.

asked the Minister of Aviation what contribution his Department is making to original research and development work in the electronics field, in order to improve the range and standard of equipment available for civil aviation purposes.

My Department's research and development establishments, in cooperation with industry, are devoting considerable effort to a wide range of civil aviation problems. These include approach and landing guidance, long-range navigation, communications, ground data handling and processing systems, the application of automation to future air traffic control systems and the use of micro-electronics techniques for civil aviation equipments. My Department will also finance the greater part of the British share in the development of the Concord supersonic transport aircraft which will entail the development of a number of advanced electronic systems.

In view of the tremendous American challenge in this respect, is my right hon. Friend aware of the absolute necessity of having an adequate system to distribute research information from his Department to private industry?

Yes, Sir, very much so. The links with industry have been recently strengthened and we are very much aware of the need for the fullest dissemination of information. I am holding a conference on Friday of this week with the leaders of the electronics industry to consider this among other matters.

What is the cost to public funds of this help?

I cannot answer offhand, but if the hon. Gentleman likes to put down a Question, I will do my best to answer it.

asked the Minister of Aviation what automatic blind-landing system is being developed; in what aircraft it is installed; and when it will be introduced on commercial passenger flights.

An automatic landing system has been developed by Messrs. Smiths (Aviation Division) in conjunction with the aircraft companies concerned for the Mk. 2 V-Bombers and Argosy aircraft of the Royal Air Force. Automatic landing systems for civil operations are being developed for the Trident, again by Messrs. Smiths with Hawker Siddeley, and for the VC10 by Messrs. Elliott Brothers with the British Aircraft Corporation. It is planned to begin using these civil systems on commercial passenger flights to suitably equipped airports in 1967. But at that stage they will only be used in conditions of adequate visibility.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that information. Is it correct that, in the foreseeable future, he hopes to standardise an automatic blind-landing system at the main British airfields and on commercial passenger lines?

It is naturally our hope to achieve standardisation and we are in touch with other Governments about this.

Will the Ministry be responsible for installing the necessary equipment for landing these aircraft under blind-landing conditions at municipal airports?

That will be a matter for agreement and discussion with the airport owning authorities, wherever they may be.

asked the Minister of Aviation on how many routes the independent airlines have started scheduled services since the passing of the Air Transport Licensing Act; and how many of these are in competition with the nationalised corporations.

The independent airlines have started about 50 scheduled services in consequence of successful applications to the Air Transport Licensing Board. Of these nine are substantially competitive with B.E.A. and none with B.O.A.C.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that, as a result of such competition, better service to passengers is provided generally without undue waste of unused passenger accommodation?

Yes, Sir. I think it is true that better service has been provided and, interestingly enough, I think that B.E.A. is the first to admit it.

How does this figure compare with the number of licences granted? Will the hon. Gentleman explain why it is that the competition which was threatened to B.O.A.C. did not take place?

I am sorry, I do not quite understand.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House the number of flights or the number of routes independents are running and how this compares with the number of licences that have been granted? How many routes are they not running? The hon. Gentleman says there are no competitors to B.O.A.C. Does he recall that the then Minister told us some time ago that competition on the North Atlantic route could not be afforded and therefore we had the B.O.A.C.-Cunard link coming into existence to prevent it?

I have not the answers to those questions now. If the hon. Gentleman puts down a Question about the number of licence applications I will try to answer it.

Will my hon. Friend consider favourably further applications by British Eagle to run services between Belfast and London?

The question of applications is one which comes before the Board and as my right hon. Friend has the rôle of appeal here, I would not care to comment.

Is it not the case that the decisions of the Licensing Board on applications for licences by private airlines on parallel routes are completely arbitrary? Will he consider the request I made some time ago for the Government to take powers to issue a directive to the Board about the considerations it should follow in these matters?

I cannot agree that the Board's decisions are completely arbitrary and the answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question is "No".

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the cost of the lowest available round-trip fares between London and New York for 1954 and 1964.

In 1954 the lowest fare was the tourist off-season return at £151 16s. In 1964 the lowest fare is an economy-class 14/21-day excursion fare of £107 3s.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether he is satisfied that enough publicity has been given to these obviously very good value flights? Can he say how many passengers took advantage of these lower prices during the period in question?

I think that the Corporations and the air companies advertise these flights sufficiently, and the ventilation of this question here will help. In real money terms the reduction in fares is even more striking, and passengers are travelling faster.

asked the Minister of Aviation what are the plans of the European Launcher Development Organisation for further development of the Organisation's launcher.

The European Launcher Development Organisation is carrying out certain studies in accordance with the provisions of its Convention. The object of these is to formulate proposals to member States for a further development programme beyond the initial programme.

Can my right hon. Friend say when he expects E.L.D.O. to come to a decision on its final proposals for a new launcher, and when the Government expect to have some national programme on the subject of space launchers and the need to create a space industry?

The organisation is due to put the proposals to the member States in the autumn. I think that the end of October is the official date, although I should not be surprised if it were delayed a few weeks beyond that.

asked the Minister of Aviation when flights to break the sound barrier will take place in Mid-Wales and southern Breconshire; and whether he will give directions that such experiments will not be in the vicinity of schools, hospitals, old people's homes and places where elderly people and children are congregated.

It is not possible to state precisely when these flights will take place. Flight paths are very carefully chosen so as to cause the minimum of disturbance and the aircraft are flown supersonically at high altitudes only. We have in the past had no complaints from schools, hospitals or old people's homes in this area.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will give greater consideration to this matter because of the protests which have come in since my Question was tabled? There is widespread objection to this in the part of the Principality involved in these flights. Surely the hon. Gentleman could give greater consideration to what I have put down in my Question?

We always consider what the hon. Gentleman puts in Questions, but I am afraid that these flights must go on.

Can my hon. Friend say what he considers to be the correct altitude for supersonic flights? What does he mean by a "high" altitude?

Normally above 30,000 feet.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Minister for Welsh Affairs and the Council for Wales were consulted before this decision was taken?

I cannot say offhand.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether, in view of the representations he received last year on aircraft breaking the sound barrier within the Counties of Brecon and Radnor, he will make arrangements to give notice to local authorities and in the local Press when such overland flights are to take place during the next 12 weeks.

As the timing of individual flights has to be arranged at very short notice, it would not be practicable to do this.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will take a leaf out of the War Office's book? When the firing of ordinary guns takes place on Sennybridge range, notice is given to farmers. Surely the Ministry could give notice in the local Press of these flights? The information is required for the next 12 weeks. The Ministry should know whether these flights are to take place during the third week, the fifth week, or the seventh week, and surely it could give prior notice to local authorities and to the Press?

The firing of guns of that nature is simpler than flying supersonic jet aircraft because we are concerned with aircraft weapons, ground instrumentation, and the preparation of the aircraft itself, in addition to the weather, and sometimes these flights have to be made at a few hours' notice. But if the hon. Gentleman has any further cases like the one he had before, concerning one of his constituents, Mrs. Betty Sannon, we shall certainly do our best to meet her wishes about not frightening her pony.

Do we understand that the Minister and the Ministry are turning a contemptuous, deaf ear to the protests and appeals made by responsible individuals and responsible bodies in Wales, in particular the fanning and agricultural communities? Has not the hon. Gentleman received plenty of information which proves that these supersonic explosions have caused considerable harm to agricultural life in parts of Wales?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is misinformed about this. Over the last two years we have had 26 claims from the whole of Britain. Of these about half have been admitted as being due to supersonic bangs and £600 has been paid in compensation.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what arrangements he has made with the Government of Spain for the building under licence of British-designed frigates, equipped with British weapon systems, the Chieftain tank and the TSR2 aircraft.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what agreements have been made with the Government of Spain for the production and building under licence of British-designed frigates and weapons.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement about the construction under British supervision of Leander class frigates for Spain.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the recent negotiations with Spain for the export of naval vessels from this country.

As I informed the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stone-house) yesterday, we have for some time been discussing with the Spanish Government the building of warships of British design in Spain. Until recently it seemed that the negotiations would reach a successful conclusion, but I understand that the Spanish Government do not now intend to proceed with them. It is estimated that the agreement would in all have been worth some £11 million to the British economy, £2–3 million for design fees and similar payments and £8–9 million for equipment manufactured in this country for the Spanish Government.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is the practice of the Government to have discussions and negotiations of this character with Communist countries; and, if it is not, is it the deliberate policy of the Government that such negotiations shall take place with Fascist Governments?

The difference is quite clear. With regard to the Communist countries, we and our allies have fairly detailed arrangements that none of us will sell goods of certain categories to them, but in the case of Spain weapons of this category can freely be sold to her, and in fact will be sold by many of our allies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the official policy of Spain is still to drive the British out of Gibraltar? This policy was confirmed only a month ago by Franco's deputy, General Grandes. It was also written into a motion that was discussed at the United Nations. Does not the Minister consider that it is treachery to the citizens of Gibraltar to arm Spain while this is still her policy?

Whatever the policy of the Spanish Government may or may not be, it will not be affected by them buying French or American equipment rather than British.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that there is a grave danger that, as a result of this, confidence may be lost in other British contracts, in the fastest growing market in Europe? Is not this a serious blow to our balance of payments position resulting from the crass political prejudice of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition?

This may be so, but I think that enough damage has been done to our trade already, without further comment.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell the House whether the statement made by his spokesman that he could confirm that this order had been concluded was made under his authority? Would he also tell the House whether he has had an inquiry made into what the Foreign Secretary described as the premature disclosure of information? Has he considered the possibility that in fact the order had already been lost, and that some hon. Gentlemen, perhaps not so far away from him now, had the bright idea of being able to put up a smoke-screen, as has been done frequently in the past, to cover the Government's own ineptitude and at the same time to embarrass my right hon. Friend?

On a point of order. Is it not highly reprehensible to refer to the Leader of the Opposition as a smokescreen?

That is a poor point of order.

As the hon. Member has another Question on the Order Paper dealing with this matter we had better wait.

While Gibraltar is British and must remain so, cannot only an ideologically fevered imagination conceive that these ships and aircraft would be used by the Spanish Government against us? Is not this antiquarian vendetta at the expense of British exports and British workers one more indication of the incompetence of the Socialists to govern modern Britain?

Can the Minister confirm that no agreement had been reached with the Spanish Government on such an order, and that the Spanish Government had simultaneously negotiated with a number of other foreign Governments for a similar order? Can he also say whether it is true that Her Majesty's Government had undertaken, if returned at the election—which heaven forbid—to support Spain's entry into N.A.T.O.?

The latter part of that supplementary question is a quite separate one. In respect of the sale of these frigates we were undoubtedly in intense competition—as we are in all trade matters all over the world—with many competitors. Unfortunately, the intervention of the Leader of the Opposition undoubtedly frustrated this sale.