asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will introduce legislation to empower him to see that local authorities require a high standard of hygiene in public conveniences.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies I gave to the Questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Waltham-stow, East (Mr. J. Harvey) on 8th June, and by the hon. Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) on 9th June. My right hon. Friend does not think legislation is required.

I am aware of the Answers which my hon. Friend gave to those hon. Members, but is he not aware that although a very high standard of hygiene is maintained by some local authorities in conveniences under their control, this standard is certainly not uniform and that a recent survey showed that in some areas less than one-third of the conveniences in those areas were above a reasonable standard and that less than half had wash basins? In view of the vital importance of maintaining a high standard of public hygiene, is not my right hon. Friend prepared to look at the matter again?

No, Sir. I am absolutely convinced that it is essentially a matter both for local administration and local enforcement. As my hon. Friend will be aware, my right hon. Friend has undertaken to issue advice on the matter, and I am quite certain that the pressure of public opinion on local authorities will be much more effective than legislation, which would be very difficult indeed to enforce.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why there is no Dorset representative on the new Somerset River Board, in view of the fact that a large area of Dorset is included in the new authority's area.

Dorset will contribute only 2 per cent. of the Somerset river authority's precepted income; the Act requires local authority members to be allocated having regard to rateable resources: and that is why Dorset has no member on this authority.

Is it not a fact that there are to be no fewer than 27 members on this new authority and that the whole of one Dorset U.D.C., the whole of an R.D.C. and part of another R.D.C. are all in the area of this board? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some resentment caused by the feeling that their future is being determined and that they are having no control over it?

The Act lays down that local authority members, who are to form the majority on the board, shall be elected according to rateable resources. Dorset has five members on the Avon and Dorset river authority.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs by how much the water rate in the area of the West Dorset Water Board exceeds or is less than the average.

My right hon. Friend regrets that it is not possible to relate the water rate in the West Dorset Water Board's area to a national average; an average could not be calculated from the information which he receives.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that it is rather high, making all allowances for very special problems in that area, and, that there is a certain amount of local disquiet about it?

Yes, I appreciate that the charges in the West Dorset Water Board's area are high, but, as my hon. Friend knows, this is largely due to the very high capital investment which has been necessary. My hon. Friend will also be aware that my right hon. Friend has recently made an Order for the extension of the area and for the inclusion of a number of other water undertaking authorities which, in the long run, will have the effect of cheapening the water supply in the whole of the area.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is satisfied that the present legislation which prohibits the felling of trees in cases of property development is adequate; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. Local planning authorities can control felling by means of a tree preservation order under Section 29 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962. They can also control development to ensure that it does not necessitate felling trees it is desired to preserve.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that there seems to be some weakness in the present position, because there has been a multiplicity of cases where trees have been felled against the orders made by local planning authorities and then, when the developers have been prosecuted—I quote a case in Gloucester recently—the fines which have been imposed have been infinitesimal, even farcical, and in the Gloucester case, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the developer was fined £1 after defying the local planning authority.

Yes, I am aware of that case. Nevertheless, that is a matter for the magistrates who tried it. Whatever legislative alterations were made, there would have to be a court to enforce the order, and it would be quite wrong for a Minister to interfere with the jurisdiction of the court.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will seek power to enable him to take the initiative in solving the problem of unmade roads in local authority areas.

No, Sir. This is essentially a local problem which the local authorities are best placed to deal with. My right hon. Friend thinks the initiative should remain with them.

I appreciate the present position, but in some areas this is a really serious problem. May I quote the Forest of Dean, where there is an enormous number of unmade roads, normally referred to as "forest tracks", and where by the nature of the area it becomes impossible for people to obtain access to their homes? Will the hon. Gentleman inquire of the Gloucester County Council why nothing has been done in relation to the Edge Hill site as well?

I am always willing to make inquiries, but I am absolutely certain that this is basically a question of priorities, and local priorities at that, and it must be for the Gloucester County Council as highway authority to decide those priorities in any particular part of the county.

Will the Minister have a very close look at this, because I can assure him that many hundreds of my constituents are suffering under intolerable conditions, particularly in the winter, because of the failure of the Gloucester County Council to take action in this matter?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how much derelict land there is in the National Parks and areas scheduled as of outstanding natural beauty.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave him on 7th July last.

Now that the Parliamentary Secretary admits that he has not sufficient information about the location or size of this problem, will he give an indication of what information he intends to obtain and, more important, whether his Department proposes to revise the methods for dealing with this very serious problem?

Revising the methods is another question. The problem at the moment is that the information we get is shown on development plans which cover different periods for different areas, so it is not possible to relate the information to the position overall on any particular date. It was to that that the circular was directed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will now make the necessary orders establishing the new river authorities provided for by the Water Resources Act, 1963; and when he expects such river authorities to exercise the functions to be assigned or transferred to them.

My right hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have now made orders establishing all the river authorities except that for the Lancashire area which will be made very shortly. It is contemplated that the authorities will begin to exercise their functions on 1st April, 1965.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what plans he has to amend the proposals in the South-East Study and White Paper, so that the Isle of Sheppey can be brought into the revised plan and form a major part of it.

The Kent County Council has made proposals of this nature in the statement of its views on the Study which it has submitted to my right hon. friend. Its views will be taken into account when final decisions on the Study proposals are reached.

Is the Minister aware that people will be relieved to hear that the matter is being considered? Does he recall that the Kent Development Plan, which was published in November of last year, very strongly urged the incorporation of Sheppey in development in the Kent area and that that Plan was published some months before the South-East Study was published on 19th March of this year? Therefore, does not the hon. Gentleman feel that a great deal of time has elapsed and that the moment has come to make a more positive statement?

My right hon. Friend has, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, already indicated that he is prepared to approve the town map which allows for an increase in population from 16,000 to 41,000 and the allocation of very large areas for industrial development.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, in view of the recent decision of the High Court that a rectory house is to be deemed an ecclesiastical building and is therefore excluded, under Section 30(2) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1962 from those classes of buildings on which building perservation orders may be made, he will introduce amending legislation which will enable him to make preservation orders on ecclesiastical buildings of special historic or architectural interest.

Since the exemption operates only while the building is in use for ecclesiastical purposes, my right hon. Friend is not clear that any difficulty is likely to arise.

Is that not rather a vague Answer? While it may be true that no difficulty is likely to arise because we can assume, for example, that the Dean and Chapter of St. Paul's would not be so wicked as to pull down the Deanery and sell the site to a developer, is it not a fact that if they wished to do so, or if something similar were to happen, the right hon. Gentleman would now have no legal way of preventing it?

A vague Question almost invariably gets a vague Answer. However, I understand the situation to be that, in order to circumvent the position, the Ecclesisastical Commissioners or some other Church body would virtually have to knock the house down as the parson walked out of the door; and although an unlikely happening, I will discuss this matter with the Church authorities.

Since the Joint Parliamentary Secretary likes precision and not vagueness, will he take note of the fact that my Question was a very exact one and asked for amending legislation, with precise references, and will he also note that they are not called "The Ecclesiastical Commissioners" but "The Church Commissioners"?

Answer.

When discussing this matter with the ecclesiastical authorities—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and I use the expression "ecclesiastical authorities" in general terms and not referring specifically a particular body—would the Joint Parliamentary Secretary also have discussions with his right hon. Friend the Minister for Public Building and Works to find out what effect the decision has had on the eligibility of parsonage houses for the historic buildings grant, since this affects their preservation?

Yes. I will certainly take that into account.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what has been the outcome of the preliminary discussions he has had with the Berkshire County Council and other local authorities on the proposal made in the South-East Study for creating a new city in the Newbury neighbourhood; and what arrangements he has in mind for ensuring that local knowledge and opinion are fully considered in a more detailed survey before any decisions are reached.

I have not yet received the observations of the Berkshire County Council and Newbury Borough Council following the preliminary discussions to which my hon. Friend refers. I understand, however, that the County Council may propose a joint study of the development possibilities in a somewhat wider area. I would certainly give any such suggestion careful consideration.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Berkshire County Council last Saturday passed a resolution saying that while it did not accept, on present evidence, the need for a new city in the Newbury area, it was willing to enter into consultations for a closer survey to take place with my right hon. Friend's Department and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to see whether additions to the existing towns in the area might better meet the needs of the situation and overcome the local anxieties about what a new city would mean to us?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his personal remark.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what guidance he proposes to issue to Greater London boroughs with a view to ensuring that they should act as good employers in the appointment of their principal officers.

The advice of the London Government Staff Commission on the procedure to be followed in making these appointments has already been sent to the London borough councils. Its essential purpose is to ensure that these authorities first seek their chief officers from staff affected by the reorganisation of London government; but the final choice among suitable candidates must in each case rest with the council itself.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that a good employer would give special weight to such factors as local knowledge, experience, length of service and seniority, and would it not be helpful in some of the problems with which these new authorities are faced, consequent upon amalgamation, if he were to issue some clear guidance on these points?

I think that I have passed on scrupulously the guidance provided by the London Government Staff Commission, which was set up for that purpose. Certainly, the points my hon. Friend mentions are among those to be taken carefully into account by the employing authorities, but I must, in the last resort, leave the discretion to them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many acres of land are available for industry in Hartlepool and West Hartlepool, respectively.

About 50 acres in Hartlepool, and about the same in West Hartlepool.

Will my hon. Friend assure me that there is sufficient land available in large contiguous areas so that large industries, such as the car industry, can come there in future?

I understand that this area includes a number of very large sites, and that several hundred acres are available to the south in the Stockton district as well. I have no evidence that shortage of available land is in any way inhibiting the establishment of industry in this area.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will introduce legislation to enable him to initiate schemes for providing compensation for the relief of residents in areas affected by flooding.

No, Sir. Insurance cover against flood has been readily available at modest cost since the severe floods of 1961, and my right hon. Friend sees no need for legislation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Slough, because of the overflowing of two lakes in a neighbouring area, there has been widespread flooding, with the destruction of carpets, clothes, bedding and everything else? Is there not some means of granting compensation in such cases, and would the Parliamentary Secretary consider applying it to the Slough cases?

Of course, the precedent is before the floods to which I have referred, and before insurance companies were generally able to afford the cover I mentioned. But what the hon. Member is asking is that those taxpayers and ratepayers who insure their own goods should be required to step in for other people who do not, and I do not really think that that is a very strong case.

But is it not the fact that this kind of act of God, which is entirely unexpected, is not something that is insurable?

No, that is not so.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is aware that inconvenience is being caused by delay in giving approval to the Redhill Comprehensive Development Area; and when he expects to give his decision.

Yes, Sir. But the difficulty is that this comprehensive development proposal incorporates the diversion of two trunk roads A.23 and A.25.

Will not my hon. Friend agree that as this is a very large area he could give at least an interim decision concerning all those parts which are not affected by the line of the proposed diversions?

I understand that the question of giving a decision on part of these proposals is full of legal difficulties, but my right hon. Friend will certainly endeavour to give a decision as soon as he possibly can.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects that a decision will be given on the Oxted and Limpsfield town map now before him for his approval; and whether he is aware that the delay in giving approval is holding up progress with the scheme for by-passing Old Oxted.

My right hon. Friend's decision on this town map is not likely to be given until early next year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what action he has taken in respect of the telegram sent him by the Welsh Tourist and Holidays Board on 2nd July about the proposed supersonic testing in Wales during the holiday period, which will result in interference with the Board's efforts on behalf of the industry.

I have written to the chairman of the Board explaining that the proposed programme of tests are similar to that carried out in previous years; these did not give rise to complaints from anyone associated with the tourist industry, or cause any undue inconvenience, intrusive noise or damage. Therefore I have no reason to think that the future programme will do otherwise.

Is the Minister aware that far more tests are to be undertaken within the next 12 weeks than ever before and that there are already serious complaints from farmers and holiday-makers? We, like the right hon. Gentleman, want to encourage more holiday-makers to come to Wales but if, as it is intended, they have to put up with these bangs they are less likely to come to seek the peaceful atmosphere of Wales.

I think that the hon. Member has become mistaken in some way. The programme is not larger than before and the only danger to tourism in Wales is exaggerated reports, such as the hon. Member might be giving rise to, which would keep holiday-makers away.

Is there not a genuine difficulty here on which the right hon. Gentleman should take action in that the distribution of test areas as it affects the population is a matter on which he is in a better position to judge than the Minister of Aviation? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the responsibility should be his rather than that of another Ministry?

That is a different question, but I do not feel that the hon. Member is right. My right hon. Friend is perfectly well aware of the distribution of population when making his decision.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the latest average tender price for three-bedroomed houses as approved by him; and how this figure compares with that for the same date in 1963, 1959 and 1951, respectively.

The latest figures relate to the first quarter of 1964, when the average tender price for a two-storey three-bedroom house, adjusted to a standard area of 900 square feet, was £2,210. The figures for the corresponding quarters of 1963, 1959 and 1951 were £2,047. £1,489 and £1,173.

Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the reply that I received yesterday from his right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works that the price of bricks increased by 18 per cent. between May, 1960, and May, 1962, by a further 7 per cent. in the next year, and by a further 7 per cent. the year after that? What steps is the Minister taking, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend, to try to keep this inflationary effect on building costs down?

The steps the Government are taking are to encourage local authorities to place, where suitable, five-year contracts, to join in groups to get the maximum benefit from large buying power, and to adopt, where suitable, competitive building systems as well as traditional systems.

Is it not true from the figures my right hon. Friend has given that the cost of such accommodation has in fact risen less over the 13 years than the average increase in earnings and wages?

Yes; my hon. Friend is quite right. House prices increased by 88 per cent. between 1951 and the first quarter of 1964. The average earnings of manual workers increased between 1951 and October, 1963—the latest available figures in the Ministry of Labour statistics—by 104 per cent.

Would it not be better if the Minister concentrated on some of the other major causes of inflation, such as high land prices, interest charges and the matter I raised, rather than constantly denigrating the building workers, whose efficiency has increased very much and who deserve the rates they get?

No; I think that my hoc Friend's supplementary question supports the view that people can afford to buy the houses or to rent the houses, despite the rise in prices.

Would my right hon. Friend also inform us whether an important aspect of this problem is that of productivity? Have not wages on sites virtually doubled since 1951, whereas output per man hour has risen by significantly less?

That is another question, of which I should like to have notice about housing. The building industry has raised productivity, certainly in housing within my field, substantially in some areas, and we hope mat this trend is continuing now.

In giving figures of average earnings will the Minister remember that they are earnings and not wage rates and that the figure of earnings which keeps pace with house and rent prices is often maintained only by working very long hours?

Yes, I will remember that: but will the hon. Gentleman remember that the price of houses and the movement in the price of houses includes some improvement in the standard of equipment that goes into these houses. This has happened particularly over the last three years.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will call for a return from local authorities to discover how many of them have given effect to one of the recommendations of the Central Housing Advisory Committee in its report on residential qualifications issued in 1955 that local authorities should give newcomers points for time on the waiting list of another district in lieu of residential qualification.

No, Sir. This is one of many suggestions which my right hon. Friend and his predecessors have commended to the attention of housing authorities. But responsibility for the management of local authority houses is reserved by Statute to the authorities themselves, and it is not for him to intervene in the detailed exercise of this responsibility.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that there are quite a number of cases of persons who, through no fault of their own, are forced to move from one local authority area to another and, in consequence, find themselves each time at the end of the housing queue? Is not this a matter to which the attention of local authorities should be directed rather more forcibly than it is at present? Should not they be asked to give effect to this recommendation?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that it is much to be preferred if there is no residential qualification at all, but in areas of considerable pressure from immigrants from outside the area there is a case for local authorities which feel that their existing residents should have some degree of priority.

Although one wishes to preserve the principle that the Government should not interfere with local authorities more than is absolutely necessary, would the Minister agree that where a local authority is not doing its duty properly it is then for the Government to intervene?

Yes, but I do not think that this is a case where a local authority can be said not to be doing its duty properly.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will now make a statement on his review of housing subsidies.

I cannot add to the reply given by my hon. Friend on 2nd June.

Since the review is due shortly, in reaching his conclusions will the Minister bear two points in mind? First, it is the Government's doubling of interest rates that has doubled council house rents and, secondly, it is not the tenants who are being subsidised so much as the financiers?

No, I cannot bear those points in mind, either in the form in which they are put by the hon. Member or exclusively. The point I will bear in mind is that it is the duty of the Government to see that people can be decently housed by local authorities, regardless of their means—and there is no evidence whatever to show that this is not the case today.

Is the Minister not prepared to review the whole position in the light of the very alarming figures which have been released by the Town and Country Planning Association and which show that the right hon. Gentleman has grossly under-estimated the magnitude of the problem?

A later Question appears on the Order Paper on this subject. The hon. Gentleman's imputation is completely wrong. This Question is about housing subsidies, about which a review is going on.

Will the Minister at any rate relieve the anxiety of those local authorities which fear that he may be using as soon as he can his powers under the 1961 Act to refuse or abolish existing subsidies?

There is absolutely no evidence of any intention in my mind of that at the moment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs in how many houses in Great Britain and in Salford, owner-occupied and landlord-owned, respectively, baths, inside water-closets, and hot water systems have been installed by means of standard improvement grants since the scheme started.

In Great Britain up to 31st March last 139,500 privately owned houses were provided with baths, 131,000 with water-closets and 153,000 with hot water systems, with the help of standard grants. For Salford the figures were 179 baths, 171 water-closets and 170 hot water systems. I cannot say how many of these houses in Great Britain and in Salford were owner-occupied, or let; but about three-quarters of all standard grants to private owners were for owner-occupied houses.

Are not those numbers pitifully inadequate compared with the one-in-four families living in houses without a bath, as revealed by the latest Government figures, and does not that fact reflect a very odd kind of affluent society? In view of this, will the Parliamentary Secretary write to local authorities asking them to submit to him their proposals for area improvement schemes and telling them that there are compulsory measures available to them where landlords are obdurate?

The hon. Gentleman knows that the Housing Bill is about to complete its stages through Parliament. There will be circulars issued in that connection, but I will see that his point is borne in mind. However, I would remind him that the best test is to judge the number of improvements against the number of houses capable of being improved; and in the Salford area, for example, the existing slum clearance programme covers 19,000 dwellings, which is very little short of the total number of houses in the borough which do not have baths, and is very much in excess of those without other facilities.

Apart from houses which have been improved with the aid of grants, has my hon. Friend any figures to show the considerable number of houses which in some areas have been improved without grants but by the owners themselves?

I have no exact figures but I have no doubt that a considerable number have been so improved.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary know that in many local authority areas—I cannot speak for Salford but I certainly can speak for Stoke-on-Trent—there are a large number of houses with 15 and even 30 years life left to them yet where the figures of improvements are appalling, showing that landlords are not measuring up to the provisions of the Act? Since landlords are now able to get greater assistance than was available to them previously, what pressure is the Minister bringing to bear on them to see that they improve their houses rather than try to get their tenants out so that they can sell their property at inflated prices?

The hon. Lady must have been absent for the greater part of this Session—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—or she would know about the Measure which has as a major purpose the giving of compulsory powers to local authorities to force landlords to make these improvements.

On a point of order. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw that remark, because if any hon. Member has a record of attending this House and Standing Committees and taking part in our deliberations, I should have pride of place on the list.

Withdraw.

It is not out of order.

rose—

I am perfectly prepared to withdraw. I think I am entitled to remind the hon. Lady that she must know about the provisions of this Measure, on which we have spent many hours, and the fact that those provisions will do what she is asking.

rose—

We must get on.

On a different point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that the Parliamentary Secretary made a mistake when reading one of his answers. He just told me that there are 1,900 houses in Salford without baths. He must know that the figure is over 30,000. He must, therefore, have made a mistake.

That is not a point of order. I cannot correct Ministers' answers in relation to the facts.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many houses in Stoke-on-Trent, owner-occupied and landlord-owned, respectively, have received improvement grants since 1949.

In Stoke-on-Trent 3,720 improvement grants were made to private owners from 1949 to 31st May, 1964. Of the 2,538 made since 1960, when separate records began to be kept, 2,220 were to owner-occupiers, 318 to other private owners.

Does not the hon. Gentleman now realise that this figure is much below what it ought to be? Does he realise that we are not merely concerned with what will be the law after this Parliament but with the law as it is now? Does he consider that 7 per cent. of tenanted houses is sufficient improvement? Cannot he do something between now and October to urge these people to get the job done?

No, I do not consider it sufficient, and that is why we put the provision into the Housing Bill, but the hon. Lady will appreciate that one cannot use the power of the Bill until it becomes an Act.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what steps he has taken to ensure that every new subsidised house has fireplace fittings for the fixing of fireguards, in view of the evidence in the recent British Medical Association Survey on Accidents in the Home that in 65 per cent. of cases of burns due to a fire, fixed fireguards were not in use.

Local housing authorities have on several occasions been advised to provide fixtures for fireguards in accordance with the appropriate British Standard.

Has the hon. Gentleman any indication of how many local authorities have taken his advice? Is he aware that, as far as I know—and certainly in most of the new towns of Britain—this advice has not been taken? Is it not clear that something further should be done in ensuring that the proper standard is adhered to, especially in view of this recent survey?

I will not bore the House with the details, but I have a large list of occasions on which this was brought to the notice of local housing authorities. But if the hon. Lady has evidence on the lines she suggests, I will certainly consider how I can make local authorities more aware of the problem.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs for the building of how many council houses Ministerial permission was requested, and for how many houses permission was granted in each year from 1945 to date, in the County Borough of West Ham; what was the total cost of the houses in each calendar year; if he will state the average cost for each type of stated house, the cost and the actual cost of repayment for the money borrowed; and if he will publish these details in HANSARD.

I will, with permission, publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the available information about programmes requested and approved, and details of numbers of dwellings in tenders approved for these years. I regret that information about the total and average costs of the dwellings concerned could not be extracted without a great deal of work, and that my right hon. Friend has no information about the cost of repayment for the money borrowed.

Will the Minister take it from me that the figures show a drastic increase in the cost of these types of houses? As the Government have declared their intention, if elected, to reduce prices, increase the purchasing value of the £ and reduce the cost of living, can the hon. Gentleman tell us why the prices of these houses and the cost of interest repayments have gone up so much? These things vitally affect the prices of houses. What is the reason for the increases, and when does he intend to reduce these costs?

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, of course, that the value of money depends not only on rising prices but on rising earnings, which have already been the subject of some discussion this afternoon.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will issue a circular of advice to local authorities on the best course of action when persons are evicted from overcrowded dwellings and there is no accommodation in which to rehouse them.

It is the duty of housing authorities to consider the housing needs of their districts and make provision accordingly. I have no evidence that evictions due to overcrowding are a general problem, but where a family is evicted and no other accommodation is immediately available for their rehousing, they must come for the time being into the care of the welfare authority.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman very well aware of the difficulties I have in mind? Does he not know that in Slough there are 40 cases of eviction from overcrowding now before the council, with no accommodation whatsoever in which the people can be placed? When does the Minister intend to face up to this crisis in the towns of the South-East which are now overcrowded and which have no possibility at all of accommodating their citizens, and where no young married couple can get a house or a flat? When does he intend to do something about it?

I am not aware of the 40 cases—or, indeed, of any number—in Slough, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will give me details. But it is true that local authorities faced with evictions due to overcrowded multi-occupied houses have effective powers with which to deal with the problem. I will communicate with the Slough authority this afternoon to make sure that it fully understands these powers.

Is effective power much use without effective houses?

The effective powers to which I refer are powers, in the last resort—once the present Housing Bill has received the Royal Assent—to apply a control order to the property or, in some cases, to take over the property by compulsory purchase order.

But when there is no accommodation available, how can the local authorities possibly provide for these people?

Because the point is that the accommodation from which the people have been evicted would, by this means, be made available for them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects the model rules for co-ownership housing associations to be available to co-ownership groups wishing to establish such associations.

I expect the model rules and other documents for co-ownership housing associations to be available later this month.

Since this is a comparatively new idea in this country and needs special encouragement, is it not most unfortunate that embryo societies that have been trying to get going have been frustrated in this way? Can the Minister speed things up, and issue the rules in a few days? I understand that they are all ready.

I regret the delay—it has been a complicated legal matter to get the rules ready—but the interested associations have had guidance from the National Federation which has enabled them to get going.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs in view of the extent of homelessness in London, if the Milner Holland Committee intends to make an interim report on this aspect of its inquiries before the House rises for the Summer Recess.

No, Sir. I understand that the Committee does not feel that it could make a useful report until it has received and considered all the evidence which it has called for.

Is the Minister aware that the situation of the homeless in London is getting steadily worse? There are now 1,200 homeless families, and there are expected to be 10 times that number if the drift to the South-East continues. Since the new London boroughs will have to take over responsibility in this matter, and are making their plans already, is there any way in which this report can be brought forward so that the new London boroughs can have the evidence and advice of the Milner Holland Committee on which to base their plans?

I believe that the Committee regards homelessness as a very important, but only one, strand in the complex problem it is considering. The Committee is working as hard and as fast as it can, and the report will therefore emerge as quickly as is practicable.

Will the Minister say what he means by the report emerging as quickly as is practicable? Does he think that it will be in his hands probably before the date of the General Election, and could we have it so that we can discuss it during the election? Will the right hon. Gentleman try to expedite the report?

No, Sir. I have asked for the report as soon as possible. I am told that there is a strong probability of its being available by the end of the year, if all goes well.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will amend Schedule II to the Housing Act, 1957, to extend the provisions for supplemental compensation to cover houses acquired by the local authority after 1965.

I am considering the position that will arise after 12th December, 1965, when the concession ends, but I cannot hold out the prospect of any general extension of the provisions.

Is the Minister aware that in a town like Blackburn, where about 25,000 sub-standard houses are due for eventual clearance, it is quite impossible for the local authority to acquire before 1965 all the houses which would qualify for full market value under Schedule II? Since the majority of these houses are owner-occupied, and their owners have sunk their life savings in them, is it not most unfair that the local authority should not be allowed to pay for them the actual value where, as in the case of Blackburn, the authority is anxious to do so?

I have undertaken in my Answer to consider the whole question, but I must point out that the concession applies to people who bought their houses before 1955 and that by 1965 they will have a minimum of 10 years' and possibly a maximum of 26 years' use of the property, but I have undertaken to look at the whole matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the points raised by East Ham Borough Council on these matters? May not those be typical of local authorities which have big schemes under review? Where there is delay because of pressure on the inquiry system in the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry may there not be a case for a special concession to carry forward the supplemental compensation?

There are always problems at the boundary whenever an arbitrary line is taken, but I will certainly bear the hon. Member's point in mind.