asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he will publish in HANSARD a list of his official public and Government appointments and engagements during the month of June, 1964.

No.

Why is the Minister so diffident? We do not often see him in the House and when he comes here he does not often have to answer many Questions. There are only two for him to answer today. May I ask what he does with his spare time other than make propaganda for the Tory Party? Can he give us some idea of what he does to earn a salary apart from a political stipend?

If I had done anything wrong there would have been more Questions put down for me to answer than there are today. We had this argument in a debate a short time ago. My duties have not altered specifically from the duties of my predecessors who have been responsible for co-ordinating information services.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the promotion of the general information services and his official help and guidance to the Foreign Press are widely appreciated and very much in the country's interests?

As to the foreign Press, I accept the fact that the Government information services ought to be made available to the overseas Press as well as to our own.

If the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for information, why is he so reluctant to give us some information about himself? Is it due to modesty or panic?

Modesty.

asked the Minister without Portfolio to what extent, in exercising his responsibilities for coordinating the publicity on the Government's programmes and policies, he holds regular Press conferences; and whether he intends to hold such regular Press conferences during the Summer Recess.

I meet the Press regularly and I shall continue to be available to them during the Summer Recess.

That is a little more forthcoming than the previous Answer. When the right hon. Gentleman does this will he stick to purely Government information on facts and figures and not use the opportunity for political propaganda? As it is at the moment we can sometimes get Questions put to him, whereas if he makes political propaganda speeches to Press conferences during the Summer Recess we shall not be able to get at him in that period and, as he ceases his office in October, we shall never by able to question him again.

I should like to be quite clear about this. In the running of Government information services we take some pains in my office to do this impartially and if the hon. Member had any cause for complaint, he would have complained before now. We shall continue to do this during the Summer Recess.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now institute an inquiry into the administration of the herring industry.

In the light of the full explanation which my right hon. Friend had from the Chairman of the Herring Industry Board following the mistake which was made over the buying price at Stornoway last winter, and of the review of its headquarters management which the Board has been carrying out, he sees no benefit in holding such an inquiry.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the figures that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has given to this House, to the effect that in 1946 there were 622 Scottish boats mainly concerned with herring fishing and in 1963 there were 189, yet in 1946 the Herring Industry Board employed 34 non-industrial staff and in 1963 it employed 68 non-industrial staff and about 114 industrial staff? Even excepting the industrial staff, this represents a rise of double the amount of staff to deal with 433 fewer fishing boats. What is the reason for it?

These are matters into which the Chairman has been inquiring, and he will be reporting the Board's conclusions to my right hon. Friend very shortly.

Will the result of that inquiry be made public so that fishermen and hon. Members have a chance to assess the situation accurately?

I should have thought that it would certainly be in the Report of the Herring Industry Board.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what encouragement he has given to the use of Scottish stone in the construction of buildings in Scotland.

Earlier this year my right hon. Friend restated by Circular the recommendation to local authorities that greater use should be made of stone in public building in Scotland and announced a relaxation in the conditions under which subsidy can be paid. Allowance for the use of stone is made in approving tenders, and in certain circumstances extra subsidy can be given when the cost of housing is increased by the use of stone.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House that he will not stop public authorities from using stone simply on the ground that it is a little more expensive than other materials? What are the prospects of stone being used in England for this purpose?

In considering tenders submitted to him by local authorities, my right hon. Friend makes allowance for a reasonable extra cost of using stone. For example, authorities are aware that where the use of stone for school building involves excess over the common cost limits he is prepared to approve the excess as a special cost up to a limit of 1 per cent. of the common cost. We should welcome orders from England, but my right hon. Friend is not responsible for the Ministerial aspect of that.

Would the Minister indicate the extent of the additional cost where stone is used for the building of houses?

As I indicated, there is this additional amount, and the Circular explains that it will no longer be necessary to establish that the site of the house is of exceptional historic or architectural interest or of outstanding natural beauty.

There is no extra subsidy in regard to the ordinary council house building where the house is built of stone.

The hon. Member has misunderstood the position. There is an allowance for an extra subsidy where the conditions can be satisfied.

How much?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he has taken to guide local authorities in Scotland in applying the recommendations of the Buchanan Report.

On 21st January a circular was sent from the Scottish Development Department to local planning authorities in Scotland inviting their attention to relevant aspects of the Buchanan Report, indicating the Government's preliminary views on the major issues, and outlining the immediate action called for. Further guidance is being prepared by the joint urban planning group which will, in its future work, draw on lessons to be learnt from studies such as those arranged for Glasgow and Perth.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the planning procedures of local authorities may not have to be streamlined a little if the work is to be done in time? On the Buchanan Report, will my right hon. Friend say that special attention will be given to the suburban railways, particularly in Edinburgh?

A change in the procedures would require legislation, but a planning advisory group has been set up on a Great Britain basis to consider, with experienced local authority officials, whether there are ways in which planning procedures can be modified.

How realistic can be any guidance given by the Government unless they accept, first of all, the fundamental plank laid down by the steering Committee, the Crowther Committee, which was that the Government should have a policy for the national relocation of population and of industry.

The fact that the Government have instituted regional studies over the country and regional studies over the whole of Scotland shows that they are thinking along the same lines as the Crowther Committee.

What is the view of the Scottish Office of the Crowther Committee's Report? This is not what the Crowther Committee recommended. It recommended many things, but not this. Have the Government rejected the recommendations of the Crowther Committee? Would the hon. Gentleman indicate which pieces of Buchanan he has particularly recommended to local authorities?

In the time available for reply, I could not answer the whole of that supplementary question. I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman was in the Scottish Grand Committee when I gave a full answer on this matter last week when the question was being discussed. The Government have indicated by circular to the local authorities the important points in the Buchanan Committee's Report and in the introductory Crowther Committee's Report. There is nothing to stop local authorities going ahead with the most important immediate problems of traffic management and parking policies, for example.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in what areas of Scotland official regional studies are taking place.

In the Highlands and Islands, the Borders, the South-West, and the North-East of Scotland.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this Question was tabled long before yesterday's debate? Will he ensure that these studies are completed as quickly as possible?

My hon. Friend heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State speaking on this matter yesterday. He said that these studies were being pressed ahead vigorously but that a study of this kind cannot be precisely timed. There is no reason for any departure from the rough estimate which my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend on 2nd December last.

Who does the survey, how many are there and what are the qualifications of the people who are carrying out these studies?

I could not give such a detailed answer without notice, but it is the Scottish Development Group, which represents all the Government Departments most closely concerned, which is working with all the local authorities concerned, which have all been written to in these areas and asked for their cooperation. The Development Group is also asking for advice and suggestions from other bodies which might be able to assist.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the percentage increase in the value of meat production, including beef, mutton, lamb, pork, bacon and poultry, in Scotland since 1951.

Between 1951–52 and 1962–63 the value of Scottish meat production, as measured by producers' total returns, rose by 80 per cent.

While thanking my hon. Friend for this special achievement and congratulating him on it, may I ask him to tell me the proportion of meat consumed in this country which is now produced at home, compared with the proportion some years ago? Will he continue to encourage modern methods which, in particular, have been adopted in the north-east of Scotland?

While thanking my hon. Friend for his comments on something for which I do not think that I can take personal credit, may I tell him that the answer is that about two-thirds of our total consumption of meat is produced at home.

In view of the shortage of meat caused by a world shortage and by shortage of imports, is it worth while going on with discussing a scheme for the limitation in any way of home supplies?

Considering that we produce about 75 per cent. of our beef consumption and that the production of beef has risen by 8 per cent. a year over the last three years, I should have thought that some consideration must be given to the regulation of home production on to our markets.

In view of the satisfactory increase in beef production and the production of other commodities mentioned in the Question, will the hon. Gentleman say how this has affected prices and how they have moved between 1951 and today?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total value of buildings at present under construction or approval for technical and commercial education in Scotland.

The value of work under construction at 31st May, 1964, the latest date for which figures are available, was £14·7 million; and proposals have been approved for other projects estimated to cost £15·8 million, a total of £30·5 million.

I congratulate my hon. Friend, and I really do congratulate her. After all, it is her Department which has produced these schemes. Although congratulating her on approving these schemes, may I ask for her assurance that she will do everything possible to ensure that agriculture is treated as a science or technology and given its proper place in these schemes?

I thank my hon. Friend for the compliment he paid to the Department for what it has done over the years, which I accept. I will take note of his suggestion.

What is the time lag between the approval and starting and between starting and completion? How does the cost change from the first approval to completion? Is the noble Lady aware that I have just been re-examining in the Library the statement made to me in June, 1955, about the approval of the Kilmarnock Technical College at a cost of £¼ million, and I am still waiting on it being completed in 1964 at a cost of nearly £1 million?

As there are a great many projects involved, I could not give the hon. Gentleman an accurate reply to the first part of his supplementary question. Ten and a half million £S worth of building will be completed in this financial year, which involves over 13 new colleges.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, as part of the regional development of southwest Scotland, he will investigate the practicability of converting a major part of the Solway Firth into a freshwater reservoir by the construction of a barrage at an appropriate location; and whether he will consult the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Secretary of State for Industry, Trade and Regional Development to seek their co-operation in the investigation.

Yes, Sir. This proposal is being examined jointly by the Scottish Development Group, in its study of south-west Scotland, and by the north-west England Regional Development Group.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the technical practicability of a Solway barrage and also the economic fact that it would pay for itself by sales of water within a period of about 20 years has the support of technicians at both Manchester University and Strathclyde University and of the Director of the Water Research Association? In view of these considerations and also of the increased employment and prosperity which such a scheme would bring to the Annan region and the improved communications across the Solway by a roadway over the barrage, will my hon. Friend give the consideration of this matter a greater degree of urgency than has been indicated by the mere fact that it is under study?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is aware of the considerable interest in this problem, and particularly the interest shown by Strathclyde University. Although my right hon. Friend could not comment on the merits of it, he is sure that those who are studying the proposal—they are studying it urgently—will take into account what my hon. Friend has said.

What consideration has been given to the memoranda submitted to the Scottish Office by Dr. Robert Drew on the subject?

The Scottish Office is considering all representations which have been made on this subject, but it is for the two Development Groups to study the question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many places are expected to be made available in technical colleges in Scotland by 1970; and how this figure compares with the number available now and in 1951.

In 1951–52 there were 9,878 full-time and 19,910 part-time day students attending colleges of further education. In 1962–63 the corresponding figures were 16,274 and 45,941.

I thank my noble Friend for that very good reply. Do the figures contained in the reply include Strathclyde University? In view of its new status, may we assume that additional places will be made available to keep to the figures which my noble Friend has just given?

Strathclyde University is separately considered. I have said that at present the value of work under construction is £14·7 million. Rather more than this amount is planned for the next few years. This should take full account of the numbers needed up to 1970, after which further provision will be needed.

What increase has there been in the number of students enjoying day-release facilities in Scotland during the same period? Is the noble Lady satisfied with the increase?

I am never satisfied with the increase. I have given the figures of part-time day students, but I think that they are increasing fairly satisfactorily.

Can the noble Lady say that at the present moment there is no shortage of places in technical education in Scotland? Can she give any reason at all why there has been such a constant delay over the provision of the technical colleges which were announced more than 10 years ago?

As far as I am aware, there is no shortage of places in technical colleges. The delays, happily, do not seem to have an effect on the accommodation available.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the percentage increase in full-time students at technical colleges in Scotland since 1959.

Between session 1958–59 and session 1962–63 the number of full-time students in colleges of further education increased by 34·s8 per cent.

May I again congratulate my noble Friend on the good advertisement she has put forward that this number of students has been reached? As I believe that other hon. Members feel that the supply may be running out, could my noble Friend give us some assurance that the curricula of the schools are so geared as to increase the number of those who will be able to fill places at these colleges?

There was a Question on the Order Paper about the curricula in the schools. Several syllabuses are being revised to take account of these matters.

Could the noble Lady give us a more realistic picture of what is happening, instead of giving us a percentage? Will she give us the actual figures for the two years?

In 1962–63 the total of full-time students was 16,274.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total amount collected in National Health Service charges in 1963–64; and how much of this was spent on the hospital building programme.

Excluding charges by local health authorities, the provisional total for Scotland is £4¾ million. There is no direct connection between these receipts and expenditure on the hospital building programme.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the Bill which increased contributions, and which also laid a charge on the patient and others, was introduced and passed in 1961, the undertaking was given in the House that all that money would be spent on the hospital building programme? The figures available to us show that in fact very much more is being taken by way of contributions and charges than is being spent on the hospital building programme. Will the Under-Secretary now give the comparable figures to show whether that allegation is accurate?

As I have said, the provisional total collected in charges is £4¾ million this year. The estimated expenditure on the hospital building programme this year is £6·3 million.

Would my hon. Friend repeat that figure and tell the House how it compares with the year before or with some previous year?

No, I am afraid not without notice.

Would the Under-Secretary ensure that the Government completely disregard the shameful suggestion of the British Medical Association that further impediments should be put in the way of patients obtaining medicaments? When this scheme was introduced, the British Medical Association advocated that patients should consult their doctors at the earliest possible moment. Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that nothing is done to impede that?

With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think that there is any evidence that there is any impediment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress is being made in the examination of the financing of local government.

Pending the report of the Allen Committee, a working party of the Departments principally concerned is assembling and examining the relevant material.

Will it be available to us when we form the Government in October?

That is a quite hypothetical event, and I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman. The Allen Report is expected later this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps, similar to those taken in north-east England, to ensure that main contractors for electricity plant in Scotland subcontract only to Scottish firms, in view of the unemployment situation; and if he will make a statement.

As the hon. Member has been informed by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power, the action to which he refers was taken in special circumstances by the Central Electricity Generating Board. In general, the placing of contracts for plant to be erected in Scotland is a matter for the commercial judgment of the Scottish electricity boards, which operate the Government's general contracts preference scheme for development districts.

The special circumstance to which the hon. Gentleman refers was a high rate of unemployment in the North-East. Does not he realise that there is a high rate of unemployment in Scotland and that, if these are special circumstances in the North-East, they should be more than special in Scotland? Why should we not receive the same treatment as the North-East? If it is good enough to confine employment contracts to firms in the North-East because of unemployment, why not give Scotland the same treatment?

As I have said, the preference scheme operates in Scotland, and, as the hon. Gentleman will know from the letter which he has received, these were very special circumstances in the North-East and something was done, which the hon. Gentleman will, I am sure, approve, to help unemployment there. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is keen on helping to relieve unemployment in the North-East as well as in Scotland. If special circumstances arise in Scotland, the electricity boards can, in their own judgment and discretion, take similar action.

Can my hon. Friend say whether any Scottish firms are being given electricity contracts?

Yes. Scottish firms are also supplying to England. So far this year, Scottish firms have received contracts valued at about £11½ million from both the Scottish electricity boards.

Does not the hon. Gentleman understand that in Scotland now English firms are getting contracts on a carte blanch. basis, without even competing for them? Recent examples have been the training colleges and, now, the main London Road by-pass outside Hamilton. Is it not fair that our own factories and firms should receive exactly the same treatment as firms in the North-East are receiving, having regard to the need to provide more jobs in north Lanarkshire and other parts of Scotland?

What the hon. Gentleman has said does not follow. There are some components and equipment which are not manufactured in Scotland and the boards have to buy from English firms in such cases, but, as I said a few moments ago, Scottish firms supply electrical equipment to England also.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many slum houses have been closed or demolished in Scotland since 1959; and what is the number of houses built before 1880 still remaining.

From the beginning of 1959 to the end of March this year about 58,000 unfit houses, together with about 7,000 other houses, were closed or demolished in slum clearance and redevelopment work. The best estimate of the number of pre-1880 houses is no more than 500,000.

Why does the hon. Gentleman say "no more than 500,000"? Is not he aware that most of the pre-1880 houses are either slums or near-slums or are at least lacking in modern amenities and they should be cleared away? Is it not clear from the figures that the programme is quite inadequate to meet the real need in Scotland? Will the hon. Gentleman explain why, according to the last quarterly housing return, the number of slum houses dealt with in Scotland went down from 10,700 in 1959 to only 8,600 in 1963? What has happened to the Government's wonderful slum clearance programme?

I said "no more than 500,000" because, as the hon. Gentleman will understand, it is difficult to get an exact figure. This is an outside figure. We can be quite sure that there are no more than that. The hon. Gentleman would be quite wrong to condemn out of hand every house built before 1880 because to do so would remove from the housing stock in Scotland a number of houses which are sturdily built and still able to give good service, no doubt, with improvement under the arrangements which the Government have introduced. On the third point, the figures I have given include unfit houses dealt with otherwise than by statutory action. The figures which the hon. Gentleman gave covered only those dealt with by statutory action, and mine also included houses dealt with under the planning Acts.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what additional moneys for school building in Irvine and district he will now authorise, in view of the fact that this area is listed as a growth point in the Plan for Central Scotland.

The pattern of major growth in the area has yet to be determined, but, when the need for new school places is established, my right hon. Friend will take it into account in making allocations of capital investment for school building.

Is it not deplorable that the people of Irvine, who have cooperated so well with their local council in inducing industry to come to their area and who have welcomed and assimilated Glasgow overspill, should now have resentment aroused among parents because of a severe shortage of school places? Will the noble Lady examine the problem again with a view to allowing Ayr County Council to go ahead, that council being able and willing to provide the school places provided that it gets extra authorisation from the Government?

I have no reason to think that the education authority cannot cope. There is a new Roman Catholic secondary school under construction at a cost of £503,000, and there is also the Irvine Royal Academy due to start at a cost of £700,000.

Could the noble Lady accompany me to my constituency this weekend? Is she aware that, each weekend, I have to interview parents who very much resent the fact that there is no room for their children in the secondary schools, and that they have to travel to other overcrowded schools in order to find accommodation, and some are not being allowed to start their education at 5 years of age?

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's invitation. Perhaps we can discuss it at some time. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, when the secondary schools are completed, accommodation will be released for primary schools. Therefore, the situation will then be very much better.

The noble Lady will be aware that this town has been hard hit in the past by loss of schools by fire, apart from anything else. The last census showed an increase of population of nearly 15 per cent., and since that time Irvine has adopted an overspill agreement with Glasgow and has received new people. Will the noble Lady look into the matter again, realising that there are pressing education problems in Irvine?

I said in my original reply that we have not yet entirely assessed school needs in the area as a growth point. A detailed technical assessment is being made, and when the report comes we shall know more accurately what is required.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many families are due to be rehoused because of overcrowding in the houses presently occupied by them.

I regret that I cannot provide this information because it is not available.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that he is sadly lacking in keeping abreast of his work by not having this information? Is not he aware that one of the reasons for rehousing people is gross overcrowding? Cannot he even give the figures for houses on which subsidies have been paid? How many thousands of local authority houses are overcrowded, and how many families are there for whom new houses should be provided so that they could move out and allow others to move into smaller homes?

The local authorities have a duty to consider housing conditions in their districts and to provide houses to meet the need there, but they are under no obligation to report to my right hon. Friend the number of houses in their districts which may be regarded as overcrowded. The local authorities themselves will know what the degree of overcrowding is, but I regret that the information is not available centrally.

Has not there been a considerable reduction in the amount of overcrowding in Scotland?

Although we are not able to provide the detailed information for which the Question asks, we have an indication of the position from the censuses of 1951 and 1961. The 1961 census shows that the proportion of people in Scotland living at a density of more than 1½ persons per room fell from 35 per cent. in 1951 to 22 per cent. in 1961.

But would not the hon. Gentleman agree that a very large proportion of the council houses which the Government boast have been built while they have been in office are grossly overcrowded and that in any table of the number of houses built there should be a footnote explaining that a large number of them are already overcrowded?

No, I would not accept that. The overcrowding is worst in the big city of Glasgow, not in the council house areas, but in areas where we want to reduce the density of population and to redevelop.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the amount of the subsidy paid per cow under the Hill Cow Subsidy Scheme and what is the amount paid per calf, respectively.

The rate of subsidy payable under the Hill Cattle Subsidy Payment (Scotland) Order, 1964, is £12 per cow. The rates of subsidy payable under the Calf Subsidy (Scotland) (Amendment) Scheme, 1964, are £7 10s. for a heifer calf and £9 15s. for a steer calf born after 1st January, 1964, or £9 5s. for a steer calf born before that date.

Since this works out at about £20 for the cow and the calf, will the hon. Gentleman draw the matter to the attention of the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, as the maternity grant for a human child is only £16? Does not this rather suggest that the farmer and the farmer's calf are valued much more highly than babies?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the conditions of childbirth on the Scottish mountain sides are a great deal more uncomfortable, I think, than in many other instances.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how many men and women were admitted to training under the special recruitment scheme for teachers in 1964;

In 1963 over 5,000 people asked for information about the special recruitment scheme. Of these 1,539 applied, 1,518 were interviewed and 951 were accepted. In session 1963–64 500 men and 429 women were admitted to training or study under the scheme.

Would not the hon. Lady agree that among the 5,000 people who originally applied we have a pool which would supplement the existing teacher force? Can she say from the survey which surely her Department has carried out why many people did not in the end apply? Does she agree that the low grant paid under the scheme is perhaps the principal barrier?

The reason for the difference between those who applied and those who asked for information cannot be accurately assessed. The scheme is well publicised and the grants are adequate. If the hon. Member would like it, I will send him the explanatory leaflet.

I was told the grants which are payable in reply to a Question which I asked on 1st July. Is the noble Lady seriously suggesting that a grant of about £375 paid to a married man with two children is any encouragement to him to give up the job which he has already and enter the teaching profession?

A married man with two children and no income would get free tuition and a grant of about £10 a week. I do not think that that is unreasonable.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on how many occasions during the past 25 years litigants have lost their cases in the Court of Session and later have appealed successfully to the House of Lords; and if he will introduce legislation to apply to criminal cases the same procedure as applies to civil cases in this regard, to permit a majority of Scottish Law Lords sitting in the Court to hear appeals from Scotland, and also to enable such appeals to be heard in Edinburgh.

In the period 1939–63, the House of Lords gave judgments in 184 appeals from the Court of Session. In 78 of these cases the judgment of the Court of Session was reversed. The answer to the second part of the Question is, "No, Sir."

Is it not absurd that in all those cases Scottish lawyers had to come to London, bringing with them senior and junior counsel, and there engage to prosecute the case English solicitors who had not previously been concerned with it? Would it not be wiser if the process were reversed and the Law Lords were allowed, by Statute or otherwise, to sit from time to time in, say, Edinburgh when necessary? Would not that be a more sensible arrangement than to go on incurring the enormous legal costs which are involved when an appeal against a Court of Session decision is taken to the Law Lords sitting in London?

I understand that the present position has obtained since the Union, and there has been no widespread demand that it should be altered.

In Scottish appeals care is always taken to ensure that at least one Scottish Law Lord sits with the other Law Lords. But, having regard to the great difference between Scottish law and English law, would it not be in accordance with justice if care were taken to ensure that a majority of Scottish Law Lords sat to hear Scottish appeals?

I think that Scots law is well represented in the House of Lords as at present constituted. On the suggestion that the Law Lords should go to Edinburgh, it would be very difficult to separate the judicial and legislative functions of the House in this way.

Surely the noble Lady will not take up such a conservative attitude to what now is almost regarded as a necessity. Is it not a fact that over the last two or three years the number of appeals to the House of Lords has enormously increased? Is it not true that in far too many cases Scottish Law Lords are in the minority when appeals are being heard in these precincts? Are not these two matters which should engage the noble Lady's attention before her Government finally pass from this Chamber?

The number of Scottish appeals heard each year from 1961 to 1963 was nine, four and seven. I do not consider that excessive. As I said earlier, Scottish law is well represented in the House of Lords.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether there has been an increase or decrease in rate-borne expenditure by Scottish local authorities between 1951 and the latest available year; and if he will state, in respect of all Scottish local authorities, the actual increase or decrease between these years.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) on 15th July.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the University Grants Committee on the siting of Scotland's sixth university.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science on 17th July to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Commander Donaldson).

First, I apologise to the noble Lady for misquoting her on Thursday when questions were being put to the Leader of the House by substituting 16th July' for a fortnight later. I realise that I should not have done this. May I ask her on what date the Scottish Education Department came to an agreement with the U.G.C. on the Stirling site?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his generous correction of what I am sure was a genuine mistake, On the question of the date, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is constantly in touch with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.

Is the noble Lady aware of the great dissatisfaction, which is quite widespread, about the manner in which this announcement was made to the House of Commons, thereby limiting the opportunities of Members of Parliament and the Press to seek more information on the policy which lay behind this decision? Is she convinced that the U.G.C.'s criterion that prior to selection the area should have shown evidence of enthusiasm and financial support was observed? Was serious consideration given to the scientific educational needs for this new university to be associated with the new science-based industries in Falkirk, or is this merely a surrender to the internal politics of the establishment of the universities?

Any question concerning the manner in which the announcement was made should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. One could not go into detail by question and answer on the various matters which were taken into consideration by the University Grants Committee, but I am certain that the Committee took a great deal of trouble to examine the claims of all seven sites, six of which were, naturally, bound to be disappointed.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the site which has been selected is the very best that could have been chosen and has given a great deal of satisfaction, not only to the people of Stirlingshire, but to the people of Scotland? No better decision could have been made by any Government.

I am sure that the hon. Member speaks for everyone when he refers to the sixth university for Scotland. I hope that all those who obviously and understandably were disappointed will now try their best to support this Scottish university.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the Secretary of State for English education, who is our master in these matters, indicated to the House that when the statement was made it would be made in this House, and that this undertaking has not been met? Will the hon. Lady convey to her right hon. and learned Friend the fact that it was not met by answering a stooge Question in written form?

I will certainly convey the hon. Member's comments to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Although, however, the announcement was not made verbally, it was made in this House.

Mr. Gourlay.

On a point of order. Has the hon. Lady noticed that Question No. 76 on the Order Paper was submitted by me to the Secretary of State for Scotland, because I believed that it was a Scottish matter, and that it was accepted as such, whereas it has been transferred to an English Minister, who knows—

Order. The hon. Member rose to a point of order. It is no good addressing it to the hon. Lady, and transfer does not raise any point of order for me.

But she got the point.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of women awaiting appointments with the consultant gynaecologist at Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy, the length of time the most outstanding cases have been waiting, and the number of women patients awaiting admission for operations.

One hundred and fifty-one women have appointments booked or are awaiting appointments with the consultant gynaecologist at the Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy; the longest period patients have been waiting is three months; and the number of women awaiting admission for operation is 263. All patients requiring urgent treatment are, of course, given priority.

Does not the Minister consider that these figures reflect a very serious situation in the Kirkcaldy area? Is he further aware that there is only one consultant gynaecologist in the hospital and that while he was on holiday, no out-patient clinics were held at the hospital? Will the Under-Secretary, therefore, take steps to ensure that the regional board has sufficient finance to enable an additional consultant to be appointed to the Victoria Hospital and thus reduce this enormous waiting list?

It is the opinion of the South-East of Scotland Regional Hospital Board that it would not be of all that practical use to appoint an extra consultant at this hospital until more in-patient beds are provided, which will be the case next year when the second phase of the hospital will be completed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a case has come to my notice this week that a woman patient in London can get this kind of appointment within a week? This shows a great difference between the situation in Scotland, and particularly in Fife, and the South-East. That is one of the reasons why we are in the difficulties which we are facing in Scotland vis-á-vis economic development as compared with the South-East. Will the hon. Gentleman take note of the representations of my hon. Friend and speed up the increased provision in this and in other fields?

I certainly undertake to do all I can in this field.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many uncertificated teachers are employed in grant-aided schools; and how many of these are classified as having qualifications seriously below standard.

At 7th October, 1963, the numbers were 82 and 11.

Is it not astonishing that even in those schools teachers are employed who are officially classified as having qualifications seriously below standard? Will the noble Lady concentrate her attention on this matter and see that at least this type of teacher is eliminated from our education system?

I referred to this matter in great detail during our education debate. Some of the teachers to whom the hon. Member refers are not necessarily incompetent to teach, but we certainly do all that we can to try to persuade them to become certificated.

The hon. Lady tells us that they are not incompetent to teach. Can she tell us why they are officially classified as being seriously below standard?

Of the 11 substandard uncertificated teachers to whom I referred, one is an assistant games mistress and one is a teacher in a nursery class. There are 10 of these teachers in grant-aided schools. Eight are in one school—a Roman Catholic school—and all eight are brothers.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he has taken to ensure that every new subsidised house has fireplace fittings for the fixture of fireguards, in view of the evidence in the recent British Medical Association Survey on Accidents in the Home that in 65 per cent. of cases of burns due to fire, fixed fireguards were not in use.

The Building Standards (Scotland) Regulations which are now in force require open fireplaces in all new residential buildings in Scotland to have fireguard fittings.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give an undertaking that the rents of managerial houses in East Kilbride will not be further increased before October, 1964, and that the prices of any which may be offered for sale to the present tenants will not exceed £4,500 in price.

Rent and sale terms for these houses are the responsibility of the development corporation, and this is consequently not a matter in which my right hon. Friend can give undertakings.

May I assure the Under-Secretary that it should be a matter for his right hon. Friend, for the reason that I have received a letter, which is one of many, from one of the most senior managers of one of the biggest firms in East Kilbride telling me that the attitude of the Development Corporation in causing it to be thought—I put it no higher than that—that the selling price of some of the managerial houses which were built for rent in 1950 and 1951 is likely to be as high as £6,000–£7,000 and that this attitude of the Development Corporation—I quote from the letter—

"is causing a deep feeling of resentment and distrust among company executives and notable people and can only lead to statements and actions which could certainly be detrimental to new industry coming into the town "?

My right hon. Friend would seek to intervene only if he thought that the Development Corporation was not acting reasonably. The Development Corporation's policy is to obtain at least a fully economic return on these houses because they are designed for tenants with larger incomes. Standard subsidised houses are available for those who cannot pay higher rents.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the bed deficiency which will obtain in Fife for the following categories on the completion of the second extension to Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy, namely, orthopaedic surgery, general surgery, general medicine, and medical paediatrics.

The extent of any remaining deficiences will depend on decisions as to the use of other hospitals in Kirkcaldy. If it is possible to continue the Hunter hospital in use for orthopaedic and general surgery, the residual deficiency will be relatively slight.

In view of those figures, does not the Under-Secretary consider that it would be wiser to defer the decision on the existing orthopaedic hospital in Kirkcaldy until after the second extension of the Victoria Hospital is completed rather than to decide now to close the hospital, in view of the position which arises?

As, I think the hon. Member knows, the question of the future of the Hunter Hospital and whether it is to remain is under urgent consideration between the hospital board and my Department.

I was referring to the orthopaedic hospital and not the Hunter.

Yes, I meant the orthopaedic.